Israel / Palestine News Thread

[lina]

On 6/20/2024 at 8:15 AM, Vrubel said:

The whole Zionist movement was secular, the land is also Jewish by history after all. That's also why Israel is built on Western democratic values. 

The beauty is that Theodor Herzl wasn't being blindly ideological and dogmatic. He wanted what was best to ensure the survival, resilience and well-being of the Jewish people. 

 

[Vrubel]

19 minutes ago, zazen said:

I’m all for believing there’s a political centre amongst Zionists / Israelis and that the fundamentalists just run the government - but then you see countless videos of IDF mockery and things like this that make you question that assumption.

This debate is all the way in Toronto. The deafening boos drowning out human rights reports reveal the fortress of denial built by those who've swallowed the Zionist narrative whole. It's easier to silence dissent than confront the cognitive dissonance of supporting a regime committing documented atrocities.

Imagine the script was flipped and self proclaimed moderate Muslims booed at reports documenting the atrocities of ISIS.

 

Because of all the shit tone of emotional manipulation, total hypocrisy and total wiping under the rug of Israel's POV.

Many people tend to be more supportive of Israel because they see the world for what it is:
You cannot start a war with a nation in the most horrific and deprived way possible and expect they’ll go easy on you. Whenever in history did that occur? Can you imagine Jews doing something like that when they were in exile or some Middle Eastern minority doing it against Arabs? 

Israel is now reacting as any Western nation would according to the spirit of the time. And I get it, some healthy idealism and good-hearted naivete on the issue are commendable. However, what I see is a highly unreasonable smear campaign that goes way beyond all nuance and acts totally obnoxious and downright hostile - absolutely ungrounded from any unhypocritical and decent principles or often even basic knowledge. The polarizing nature of this behavior has turned this complex issue into a simplified culture war issue.

 

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Hatfort said:

Since the USA, EU, and NATO countries support a Jewish ethnostate, I think they should be the ones to offer land for that

But you wouldn't want a random land! You want the place you are attached to emotionally. YOUR place.

Edited June 21 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@zazen Come on. The soldiers in the videos are numerous soldiers out of thousands. Of course the reporters/investigators will cherry pick only the bad cases.

Edited June 21 by Nivsch

[Raze]

 

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Many people tend to be more supportive of Israel because they see the world for what it is:
You cannot start a war with a nation in the most horrific and deprived way possible and expect they’ll go easy on you. Whenever in history did that occur? Can you imagine Jews doing something like that when they were in exile or some Middle Eastern minority doing it against Arabs? 

Israel is now reacting as any Western nation would according to the spirit of the time. And I get it, some healthy idealism and good-hearted naivete on the issue are commendable. However, what I see is a highly unreasonable smear campaign that goes way beyond all nuance and acts totally obnoxious and downright hostile - absolutely ungrounded from any unhypocritical and decent principles or often even basic knowledge. The polarizing nature of this behavior has turned this complex issue into a simplified culture war issue.

+1 ❤️

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Come on. The soldiers in the videos are numerous soldiers out of thousands. Of course the reporters/investigators will cherry pick only the bad cases.

   Don't say come on, when you're burred in denial and can't come off it.

[Raze]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Many people tend to be more supportive of Israel because they see the world for what it is:

You cannot start a war with a nation in the most horrific and deprived way possible and expect they’ll go easy on you. Whenever in history did that occur? Can you imagine Jews doing something like that when they were in exile or some Middle Eastern minority doing it against Arabs? 

Israel is now reacting as any Western nation would according to the spirit of the time. And I get it, some healthy idealism and good-hearted naivete on the issue are commendable. However, what I see is a highly unreasonable smear campaign that goes way beyond all nuance and acts totally obnoxious and downright hostile - absolutely ungrounded from any unhypocritical and decent principles or often even basic knowledge. The polarizing nature of this behavior has turned this complex issue into a simplified culture war issue.

It’s not a “smear campaign”. 

Israel cannot keep millions of people locked in a prison and expect no revolt, and it can’t justify slaughtering civilians with no military objective in sight as “self defense”.

The entire world is turning against them and they are creating a black mark on the history of Jews, but you are too nationalistic and blinded by biased to realize it despite mountains of evidence.

Yes, we can imagine Israel doing that because they’ve carried out massacres for worse than Oct 7 multiple times.

The Jewish people have a long admirable history of survival, supporting righteous causes, critical thinking and questioning power.

You are displaying the opposite behavior.

When Israel murdered countless civilians and we had video of babies with their heads burst open to “rescue” 4 hostages who would have been returned along with all others in a ceasefire, you just replied “don’t fuck with Israel”. You called Palestinians “savages”. You refused to acknowledge how the blockade and regular bombardments by Israel on Gaza lead to Oct 7 and insist Israel did nothing wrong. People like you are the reason Israel and Jews are in danger because you enable behavior that makes them enemies. 
 

The entire world supports a ceasefire, every country aside from the US and Israel in addition to a majority of US citizens and a large portion of Israelis, yet somehow you are convinced they’re all biased and you aren’t by going against them while ranting about how proud you are of being a Jew, literally displaying your bias while refusing to acknowledge it.

Edited June 21 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze From the moment you said that Israel did "many times far worse things than oct7" then I can't take your message seriously anymore because this is so obviously false that I don't know where to start to explain why.

About the reasonable part of your message that luckily was before that sentence, Gaza and West Bank population get B-class conditions this is right, but you overlook their 50% part of responsibility to that.

Edited June 21 by Nivsch

[Hatfort]

4 hours ago, hundreth said:

I guess when Jews have a state, it's not considered part of history. Only every other nation belongs to history. 

No, it's history too, I've acknowledged it as that. But we are talking 70 years, which is still the normal lifespan of a human being, and an ongoing ethnic cleansing and genocide, it's happening right now. I'm not going to pretend it's not happening, it's not fair for the Palestinian people today, not 200 years ago.

It can't be done much about the colonialism of centuries ago, maybe acknowledge that it was bad for the people in those places, but we are at least not going to turn our heads to the awful crimes that are being done to the Palestinians by colonizers now. They are human beings, with they lights and shadows, like every other culture, but they don't deserve what's being done to them.

[zazen]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Come on. The soldiers in the videos are numerous soldiers out of thousands. Of course the reporters/investigators will cherry pick only the bad cases.

The point is the number of videos seem far too high and disproportionate for a relatively smll deployment of soldiers/troops.

For example Iraq and Afghanistan saw over 1.5 million US troops  deployed over 20 years and we never saw this volume of content mocking death and destruction.

One caveat is that social media plays a big role in visibility and social media took off half way through those wars when the numbers were drawn down significantly.

But what’s striking to me is that even after a ICJ hearing on the world stage many soldiers feel just fine to continue with the behaviour.

Edited June 21 by zazen

[Raze]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze From the moment you said that Israel did "many times far worse things than oct7" then I can't take your message seriously anymore. Because this is so obviously false that I don't know where to start to explain why.

On Oct 7, 767 civilians were killed, for the sake of argument let’s say Hamas did them all (not true, we now know IDF took out some, we don’t know how many).

In operation cast lead 900~ civilians were killed

In operation protective edge 1000~ civilians were killed

In the first intifada 1,900 were killed, of them 240 children 

In the Sabra and Shatila massacre 700~ civilians were killed

During the Nakba 800~ civilians were killed such as in the Deir Yassin massacre

 

[Nivsch]

@zazen Or that now there is an active enormous passion to darken one side. This is true the the right wing way of thinking falls into hamas psychological campain's traps all the time and along the way influences certain % of the soldiers.

Edited June 21 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

The Jewish people have a long admirable history of survival, supporting righteous causes, critical thinking and questioning power.

You are displaying the opposite behavior.

It's true that we had to show a certain "excellence" in survival and couldn't afford to fall into riffraff but even so, we got the Holocaust because we didn't have our state and army.  

You don’t bother calling out the more blatant anti-semites among your ranks so this tells me enough. You don't have to but spare me then your pretense of caring about the Jewish people. If you truly cared about Jews you would at the very least have a healthy respect and appreciation for Israel. Reflecting your logic back: I only like Arabs when they share or confirm my specific worldview and are not of the Palestinian identity. 

Edited June 21 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

@Raze Numbers aren't an indication to almost anything in a war of western democracy against guerilla when the motivations and intentions of both sides are completely opposite.

Edited June 21 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

@Nivsch Do you notice that these people cannot say: "Yes, 7/10 was absolutely inexcusable, an absolute vile display of animalistic savagery. I acknowledge the scale and variety of depraved crimes committed on that day and integrate that reality with my opinions and worldview." 

They always act slippery and do false equivalencies on the issue as if fully acknowledging the truth of 7/10 would shatter their worldview. 

Edited June 21 by Vrubel

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

1 hour ago, Raze said:

It’s not a “smear campaign”. 

Israel cannot keep millions of people locked in a prison and expect no revolt, and it can’t justify slaughtering civilians with no military objective in sight as “self defense”.

The entire world is turning against them and they are creating a black mark on the history of Jews, but you are too nationalistic and blinded by biased to realize it despite mountains of evidence.

Yes, we can imagine Israel doing that because they’ve carried out massacres for worse than Oct 7 multiple times.

The Jewish people have a long admirable history of survival, supporting righteous causes, critical thinking and questioning power.

You are displaying the opposite behavior.

When Israel murdered countless civilians and we had video of babies with their heads burst open to “rescue” 4 hostages who would have been returned along with all others in a ceasefire, you just replied “don’t fuck with Israel”. You called Palestinians “savages”. You refused to acknowledge how the blockade and regular bombardments by Israel on Gaza lead to Oct 7 and insist Israel did nothing wrong. People like you are the reason Israel and Jews are in danger because you enable behavior that makes them enemies. 
 

The entire world supports a ceasefire, every country aside from the US and Israel in addition to a majority of US citizens and a large portion of Israelis, yet somehow you are convinced they’re all biased and you aren’t by going against them while ranting about how proud you are of being a Jew, literally displaying your bias while refusing to acknowledge it.

   Kind of true, case in point they did one time worship Moloch in Gehenna, a deity they honor by sacrifice via burning children alive. Lovely!

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

54 minutes ago, zazen said:

The point is the number of videos seem far too high and disproportionate for a relatively smll deployment of soldiers/troops.

For example Iraq and Afghanistan saw over 1.5 million US troops  deployed over 20 years and we never saw this volume of content mocking death and destruction.

One caveat is that social media plays a big role in visibility and social media took off half way through those wars when the numbers were drawn down significantly.

But what’s striking to me is that even after a ICJ hearing on the world stage many soldiers feel just fine to continue with the behaviour.

TRUE!

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

24 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Nivsch Do you notice that these people cannot say: "Yes, 7/10 was absolutely inexcusable, an absolute vile display of animalistic savagery. I acknowledge the scale and variety of depraved crimes committed on that day and integrate that reality with my opinions and worldview." 

They always act slippery and do false equivalencies on the issue as if fully acknowledging the truth of 7/10 would shatter their worldview. 

   I know right? Kind of like some people who deny Al Nakba, and 80 years of land theft by the likud party Zionists. It's just SSSSOOOOO BIZARRE!

[Danioover9000]

@Hatfort

1 hour ago, Hatfort said:

No, it's history too, I've acknowledged it as that. But we are talking 70 years, which is still the normal lifespan of a human being, and an ongoing ethnic cleansing and genocide, it's happening right now. I'm not going to pretend it's not happening, it's not fair for the Palestinian people today, not 200 years ago.

It can't be done much about the colonialism of centuries ago, maybe acknowledge that it was bad for the people in those places, but we are at least not going to turn our heads to the awful crimes that are being done to the Palestinians by colonizers now. They are human beings, with they lights and shadows, like every other culture, but they don't deserve what's being done to them.

   True, no matter how much white washing they do, it's still part of history, and they still will have to answer for it.