Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Gennadiy1981]

I don’t want to go into narrow political schematic, but most parties are not. I know they are playing games for a two state solution and that’s actually pretty bad as they give false hope and lead the world to believe that they truly want while in reality they are being very hypocritical and say one thing but act differently. Look they all play games and in my opinion are not ethical games. They pretend that they want and then they blame on the other side, this is not honest or ethical. All of them played games with Olmert and Tzipi Livni, who screamed from their throat that they want two state solution but did very little. You know the only person who kinda did, was Sharon, and by the way I do not agree with him and he made a grave mistake, but he actually was the one who removed all Jews from Gaza and from northern Samaria. Look I used to be involved back then and I did raise my concern to some about not having two state and the reps be I got was not to worry about and the the Palestinians will never agree and if they will agree we will make something that they would disagree and so on. Look I am a straight shooter and I am very honest and straight forward, but this kind of politics is very hypocritical and I really think it back fires. And by the way, as you probably can see I am not for two state solutions inside Israel, but if they truly wanted, it would already been made by now.

And by the way not to get into conspiracy, but I really think Yitzhak Rabin at one point wanted to implement and the way he was killed was a lot of mystery. Not sure if you knew but one very quite fact, is that when he was shot, the ambulance car was circling for over an hour while the nearby hospital was only 15 minutes away. And also there are a lot of dirty games the government does which I will not bring up on this forum. But since you asked I will share with you something that I personally know. You see I personally know the Goldstein family, yes Baruch Goldstein, even after his death I used to speak with his family and I know many people don’t know. Again this is not form someone else stories but I know from personal communication. So when the Oslo was coming close and Israeli government got really scared that it may come to fruition, no they decided to make one dirty trick in my opinion. Baruch Goldstein was a doctor and by the way compare what they write about him, as I knew him personally and not based on stories, he was not a crazy person, but indeed a very nice man, who by the way loved kids and was helping to heal kids for free whether they were Jewish or Palestinian, something that is not really spoken off. And by the way there are crazy people who live in settlement I will not argue with that, he was very educated and down to earth man, indeed he was at a very high stage individual. 
 

So come Oslo, Shabak (similar to FBI in America) came too him and told him that in Hebron there wi,, be a massacre and they need to show the world that Palestinians are barbarians so they can pause with the peace process. Honestly that I would not know if it was true or not but to be honest I think they were bluffing. Oh and let me tell you, they had meetings with him every day, since he was a top medic they would tell him that he would need to help the wounded people and everything. They played a mind game with him and were having those meeting ever since day. After two weeks, they actually truly switched his consciousness that he lost him mind and the rest you know what happened. I did not share that story before but so much time passed by and both his parents passed away. Of course in the newspaper it was totally different story but I know the truth as I was the one communicating with him. So this is the ethics they are playing with. 

[Nivsch]

@Gennadiy1981 If you followed them more seriously it would be obvious to you they are genuinely for two state solution. They have explained many times how an annexation of 2 million more Palestinians will be a disaster and that we must seperate ourselves from the Palestinians. That was the mantra of all the center and left parties to their Israeli voters in Israeli channels for years. You only convince yourself here.

Edited June 14 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

57 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@Vrubel you seem like being a very sober at this whole thing and you see both the ethical issue and at the same time the necessity of keeping Israel. See that’s why I truly appreciated Rabbi Meir Kahane who was advocating for a peaceful transfer of Palestinians as he really foresaw exactly what would happen. Think about it, let’s say if back then in 1980 they would transfer Palestinians to any Arab state or states, ok the world would scream for a month or two or say six month, but look at the beauty, we would not have all those wars and killings and no Hamas would be launching rockets and the IDF would not have to go and bomb the camps. Remember when Menachem Begin bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor. Cause at that time Iraq was about the have nuclear weapon and Israel bombed it, yes there was a huge protests back then for three month straight, and then people found other causes and moved on, but the entire idea of nuclear Iraq was totally gone and since then about forty years passed by, everyone pretty much forgot about it. Rabbi Kahane wanted to get other Arab states involved to resettle them among them and to get UN involved as there are so much money being funneled into PLO that either gets to private pockets or terrorists organizations, as oppose to resettle them, build them homes and infrastructure and then allow them to purchase or even to offer for very little or free. All this money would be for the building cities and pretty much offering them free houses, and they would blend much easy with the people who share the same identity and religion and language and culture and by now this entire problem would have been forgotten. I know there are polical profits here and I know PLO likes as they collect money form universal causes, but if his plan was truly implemented, today you would not be having refugee camps and the two people would be truly separated. Look at @Raze said there is bad blood among them, it’s like keeping a husband and wife in marriage who hate each other, for what purpose? To show that there can be peace, but at what price, so they would kill each other. I know I may not speak of political correctness, but not all solutions are politically correct, sometimes you need to be not correct but to save so many lives. 
 

You're going too far on some of the issues here. The beauty of Israel is that it's the existential lifeline of the Jewish people and we will always fiercely defend our country but at the same time we uphold standards very few other nations would if faced with the same situation. Our enemies are the lowest of humanity, truly unthinking savages but we have a covenant with God 

Arabs also have the right to live on the land, the issue is about in what form of sovereignty (as their deep stage-red nature is deeply problematic as it's impossible to integrate or to be trusted with a full-fledged state). Ultimately compromises have to come from both sides. I think two compromises the Palestinians can't get around anymore are the acceptance of a Jewish minority within their state who will continue to live there under heavy security and restricted freedom much like white people currently live in South Africa. And two, that (apart from a small Palestinian internal security force), Israel will be responsible for the military defense of all of the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River. Compromises Israel can make include recognizing the Nakba and financial support to lift their economy to a new class. Either way, the two economies will be deeply integrated and both sides have to learn to live together without demonization. I am only speaking about peace with West Bank here, honestly, Gaza is too fucked to be included in anything fruitful and co-existence oriented. Even the Egyptians don't trust their guts and blockade them so let alone the Israelis. 

 

[Gennadiy1981]

@Vrubel Is that me or the more ethical we are towards our energies the more the world is aggravated. You do know that the more we go into the future the more ethical Israelis are like warning the enemies by sending leaflets and try to avoid killing innocent. I wonder what if Israel was more like Russia say, hypothetically, do you believe the world opinion would be different. I was really thinking about it, and I truly noticed the more ethics we apply the more anger we get from the world.

[Gennadiy1981]

@Nivsch don’t get me wrong, I never said the left side of the government are for Annexation. If you ask me, I think they don’t have a solution but rather just throw a ball from one government to another. Also saying something is different than doing. And by the way most right wing politicians don’t have a solution neither, I hope I am not sounding here like I support one spectrum over the other. Neither the left or the right have a viable solution. It’s just I find it very hypocritical when they scream of mount atop that they are for two states but in reality all they do is postponing. And don’t get me wrong I am not for two states though I think I made it very clear. 

[Raze]

 

[Merkabah Star]

8 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Is that me or the more ethical we are towards our energies the more the world is aggravated.

Another one with tunnel vision. 😂

[Gennadiy1981]

@Vrubel I reread again what you wrote here and I will be honest with you, truly reading what you are saying I can tell you that you are a high consciousness individual and you are truly aiming at higher stages of spiral dynamics. You made some points but I do want to challenge them, and I am challenging them on a consciousness politics and not on a low level as most just keep throwing here different conspirational stuff. I will pose some very uncomfortable questions, that those who are truly into deep spiritual work will get very uncomfortable but since you made some points I need to challenge you there.

So basically you are saying that if Palestinians primarily in the West Bank will accept Israel we can make some peace with them, but at the same time you still want separation. But say if tomorrow they wake up and say they would want peace, truly peace, and say they get integrated to stage orange and slightly blue, but not extremists blue. Technically someone who is such a high level would be even ok to make one state, where we all can leave in peace, where we don’t have to transfer say Israeli citizens form West Bank to Israel and we don’t have to transfer Palestinians who live in Israeli proper like Um El Fahm, Hadera, Nazareth and so on. There won’t be issue with resources and etc. But, the next election come, and then if it’s true democracy it can be a fair game who will get elected, it can be a Jewish prime minister but it can also be an Arab prime minister. So are you willing to loose Jewish character of Israel to be a democratic character? See democratic state and jewish state are mutually exclusive and don’t tell me otherwise. The basic definition for a  democratic state is whoever majority rules, but for a jewish state, it must be ruled by a Jew.

So what would you choose? The jewish state or democratic state? Because someone who is so high conscious should be away from tribalism, but then again you have history and when shit hits the fan, all our high consciousness goes down to drain? I know I am asking a third rail question that actually Rabbi Kahane was asking and wrote a book called “uncomfortable questions for comfortable Jews” oh believe me, most questions American Jews could not answer and they even petitioned for that book to be banned from sale. This is just one question out of many he asked, but you can get this book for yourself and reading it will make you hit the wall.

So what’s more important to you, high consciousness and multiculturalism or tribalism?

 

 

[Revolutionary Think]

For all of you who want to actually understand at a deeper level. 

 

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@Vrubel Is that me or the more ethical we are towards our energies the more the world is aggravated. You do know that the more we go into the future the more ethical Israelis are like warning the enemies by sending leaflets and try to avoid killing innocent. I wonder what if Israel was more like Russia say, hypothetically, do you believe the world opinion would be different. I was really thinking about it, and I truly noticed the more ethics we apply the more anger we get from the world.

We always had and always will face unreasonable obsession and deceitful smear campaigns no matter what we do or don't do. That's clear as daylight but this is not the point. Haters in the worst case might blatantly support our human-animal enemies and in "better" cases equate us to them. The fact remains we are on a whole different dimension in terms of decency, humanity and values. It's obvious that this truth will be upheld even if it doesn't matter to our haters. 

A very early memory I have of Israel as a child was seeing Arab people at the swimming pool and thinking to myself: "Wow, they can be with us so freely and carefree yet If I go into their area in the territories they'll murder and gut me". And that's true to a large degree. So I remember laying down on the bed and all blissed out at how much more decent and upright we are than our enemies. Of course, I grew up and learned all the nuances but still, it has not changed that Western democratic values are worth idealizing if we care about peace and high-quality society. 
 

1 hour ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@Vrubel I reread again what you wrote here and I will be honest with you, truly reading what you are saying I can tell you that you are a high consciousness individual and you are truly aiming at higher stages of spiral dynamics. You made some points but I do want to challenge them, and I am challenging them on a consciousness politics and not on a low level as most just keep throwing here different conspirational stuff. I will pose some very uncomfortable questions, that those who are truly into deep spiritual work will get very uncomfortable but since you made some points I need to challenge you there.

So basically you are saying that if Palestinians primarily in the West Bank will accept Israel we can make some peace with them, but at the same time you still want separation. But say if tomorrow they wake up and say they would want peace, truly peace, and say they get integrated to stage orange and slightly blue, but not extremists blue. Technically someone who is such a high level would be even ok to make one state, where we all can leave in peace, where we don’t have to transfer say Israeli citizens form West Bank to Israel and we don’t have to transfer Palestinians who live in Israeli proper like Um El Fahm, Hadera, Nazareth and so on. There won’t be issue with resources and etc. But, the next election come, and then if it’s true democracy it can be a fair game who will get elected, it can be a Jewish prime minister but it can also be an Arab prime minister. So are you willing to loose Jewish character of Israel to be a democratic character? See democratic state and jewish state are mutually exclusive and don’t tell me otherwise. The basic definition for a  democratic state is whoever majority rules, but for a jewish state, it must be ruled by a Jew.

So what would you choose? The jewish state or democratic state? Because someone who is so high conscious should be away from tribalism, but then again you have history and when shit hits the fan, all our high consciousness goes down to drain? I know I am asking a third rail question that actually Rabbi Kahane was asking and wrote a book called “uncomfortable questions for comfortable Jews” oh believe me, most questions American Jews could not answer and they even petitioned for that book to be banned from sale. This is just one question out of many he asked, but you can get this book for yourself and reading it will make you hit the wall.

So what’s more important to you, high consciousness and multiculturalism or tribalism?

 

 

We need to separate like I described to you. But Israeli Arabs definitely have to stay in Israel because that's what they deeply want and it's "unconstitutional" to transfer them. Likewise, I think it will satisfy (moderate) Israeli settlers if they can continue to live in their biblical heartland even if it is under Palestinian sovereignty. But yes, Israel, the Jewish state has to be majority Jewish there was never a question of doubt about that. 
Like if the Palestinians were a super advanced people we could start contemplating one state but the reality is that they are extremely low so it's not worth exploring that option unless you want to turn Israel into a dysfunctional mess worse than Lebanon.

 

Edited June 14 by Vrubel

[Gennadiy1981]

39 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

We need to separate like I described to you. But Israeli Arabs definitely have to stay in Israel because that's what they deeply want and it's "unconstitutional" to transfer them. Likewise, I think it will satisfy (moderate) Israeli settlers if they can continue to live in their biblical heartland even if it is under Palestinian sovereignty. But yes, Israel, the Jewish state has to be majority Jewish there was never a question of doubt about that. 
Like if the Palestinians were a super advanced people we could start contemplating one state but the reality is that they are extremely low so it's not worth exploring that option unless you want to turn Israel into a dysfunctional mess worse than Lebanon.

 

I get your point about being on the higher ethics and that is what the Torah speaks that at the end of times we should be an example to nations. 
Going back to my second point, hypothetically, if Palestinians tomorrow become like Swiss people, high consciousness, like Europeans who would become stage orange, would you personally be ok to make one state solution and be done with the Jewish character so basically Israel would stop existing as a Jewish state?

See on one hand, if we are on such high intellectual level wouldn’t all people be equal in our eyes? But on the other hand, I think the major card and it’s deep in the consciousness whether we like it or not and Leo here is correct on that, there is Torah or Bible (does not matter how you call it) that is embedded in us and that is what motivates us to meet the final redemption and the end of times as how it was all prophesied, because if blending together as one, then the idea of redemption and Armageddon is really dissipated. And I am not saying that lightly or from low consciousness level as most here will misunderstand me, but I believe you can understand. It’s something to contemplate what is more worth to us? To you? Is Bible more important that being say stage yellow or even turquoise? Again assuming a hypothetical situation and by the way, there are a large amount of ArabIc people whom I spoke with, and who are really high consciousness ones. 
So would I assume you would choose Jewishness over? Tough question? See this is a high conciseness question as oppose to what most throw here, low level thinking.

[Twentyfirst]

If invaders come to your land killing you kill them back. Simple as that

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Hypothetically, if Palestinians tomorrow become like Swiss people, high consciousness, like Europeans who would become stage orange, would you personally be ok to make one state solution and be done with the Jewish character so basically Israel would stop existing as a Jewish state?

It depends, I don't mind in principle though the question then still remains how well will we work together and have our noses in the same direction as one state. Scotland and England work relatively well, they have separate sovereignty but are still in a larger overarching union as equals, even so Scotland wants more and more to become fully independent. Bosnia is dysfunctional but Belgium is a bit better though they have some tension between the Flemish and Walloon that might escalate. It's generally not good when people identify more with the subgroup than the overarching state. So even with high development factoring in, two states might still be the better option. The best and most functional union example is how the North and South were (forcefully) kept together resulting in a more powerful United States. 

 

1 hour ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

See on one hand, if we are on such high intellectual level wouldn’t all people be equal in our eyes? But on the other hand, I think the major card and it’s deep in the consciousness whether we like it or not and Leo here is correct on that, there is Torah or Bible (does not matter how you call it) that is embedded in us and that is what motivates us to meet the final redemption and the end of times as how it was all prophesied, because if blending together as one, then the idea of redemption and Armageddon is really dissipated. And I am not saying that lightly or from low consciousness level as most here will misunderstand me, but I believe you can understand. It’s something to contemplate what is more worth to us? To you? Is Bible more important that being say stage yellow or even turquoise? Again assuming a hypothetical situation and by the way, there are a large amount of ArabIc people whom I spoke with, and who are really high consciousness ones. 
So would I assume you would choose Jewishness over? Tough question? See this is a high conciseness question as oppose to what most throw here, low level thinking.

I am all for preserving the Jewish nation, I might even say this is my biggest attachment in this life and why I support Israel so much. But I don't really care about the "purity" of the Jewish people. Like I said earlier with the Russians in Israel, they came to the land and passionately embraced their Israeli identity despite not always being (fully) Jewish. I love that Jews are such a mix of East and West and also some non-Jews. Too much inbreeding is bad. Personally, I want to marry, have children and move to Israel with someone from a Russian (Jewish) cultural background. Starting open-mined and after some experience, I just came to the conclusion that I fit best with people with a similar background to myself. It's easier to love and deeply care for people when they're of your blood

 

 

Edited June 15 by Vrubel

[Gennadiy1981]

Thanks @Vrubel for honest answer truly appreciate. You know no matter how much I contemplate I would be the same to choose tribalism over multiculturalism though it hurts me consciously that we are still not there nor maybe we were not meant to be there to begin with. You made very good points and notice I gave you an ideal situation, now factor all reality in it and the situation becomes technically where we are now. So then how far away we are from turquoise level society if one to ever even exist. Maybe it’s all utopia, a fairy tale that not possible to be achieved?

[Nivsch]

6 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

So are you willing to loose Jewish character of Israel to be a democratic character? See democratic state and jewish state are mutually exclusive and don’t tell me otherwise. The basic definition for a  democratic state is whoever majority rules, but for a jewish state, it must be ruled by a Jew.

This is one of the reasons you have to go towards two state solution.

Edited June 15 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

Quote

US imposes sanctions on Israeli group that attacked Gaza aid

Washington imposed sanctions on an Israeli group on Friday for attacking humanitarian aid convoys bound for starving civilians in Gaza, U.S. officials told Reuters, in the latest move targeting actors Washington believes threaten the prospects for peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

The sanctions target Tsav 9, a group with ties to Israeli army reservists and Jewish settlers in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, over activities including blocking, harassing and damaging aid shipments.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-impose-sanctions-israeli-group-that-attacked-gaza-aid-2024-06-14/

 

[Merkabah Star]

We just saw the funeral of 10-year-old Mustafa Hijazi. He died due to health complications and the malnutrition made the situation worse. This is the second case where a Palestinian child has died due to malnutrition.

 

[Twentyfirst]

 

[Vrubel]

7 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Thanks @Vrubel for honest answer truly appreciate. You know no matter how much I contemplate I would be the same to choose tribalism over multiculturalism though it hurts me consciously that we are still not there nor maybe we were not meant to be there to begin with. You made very good points and notice I gave you an ideal situation, now factor all reality in it and the situation becomes technically where we are now. So then how far away we are from turquoise level society if one to ever even exist. Maybe it’s all utopia, a fairy tale that not possible to be achieved?

I get it but you still live life as a human being in a certain reality. It can be highly counterproductive and not worth it to get too much on your high horse on certain aspects pertaining to identity. First cultural affiliation and inter-human click/deep tacit understanding based on shared backgrounds and values, however subjective is a very real thing that you feel and seek. Second outside people will always define you and target you purely based on identity anyway. 
I remember early on in the thread some of the “brainwashed” pro-Palestine's had a moment of epiphany: “like damn… there are Israelis here and they make reasonable points and aren’t total monsters.”

Also too much relaxing of national identity is a source for a lot of the debasing that is happening in Western society. People aren’t connected to community and country anymore. Not only is this a form of “spiritual poverty” it leads to bad policy were they voluntarily in goodwill but naively set their country on a path to total cultural replacement. I am talking about low birth rate and unchecked immigration.

For most people life is so exceptionally safe at this time in human history under the relative but notable benevolence of the Western world order that people take totally for granted the forces that guard and enforced that peace in the first place.

[Nivsch]

8 hours ago, Vrubel said:

For most people life is so exceptionally safe at this time in human history under the relative but notable benevolence of the Western world order that people take totally for granted the forces that guard and enforced that peace in the first place.

+1 ❤️

And yeah, too safe apparently. That is part of the problem.

And @Vrubel this evening I am in the port again and I want to upload here your surreal sunset photo you tooked we have talked about it was stunning. Of course you will get a credit

Edited June 15 by Nivsch