Israel / Palestine News Thread

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

What about Yemen and literally all the countless conflicts and wars involving Muslims. Oh wait... no Jews involved. Never mind.

Give Hamas some credit for this show. Don't be a useful idiot for them. The Irony is that without the unconditional pampering of Palestinians by the hivemind movement. This war would have never started or ended quickly with much less Palestinian suffering and death. 

These protests aren't some monolithic mass of stereotypes; they're driven by unique motivations and backgrounds. I see Jordan Peterson labelling pro-Palestinian protesters with a broad brush of negativity and saying they’re feminists and childless Karen’s (as if the capitalist free market system he believes in doesn’t drive the economic disparities, urbanisation and atomisation that causes the issues he cries about)

It's not about their personal quirks or shortcomings—it's about the bigger picture driving them to the streets. Instead of nitpicking at protesters personal traits it’s more about the causes that fuels these people onto the streets.

Yes, the world is full of tragedies, but pointing fingers elsewhere doesn’t absolve Israel of its own actions. The suffering in Yemen is indeed horrific, and largely driven by a coalition led by Saudi Arabia, armed and supported by the West. Another grim example of how geopolitical interests trample human lives. But we're talking about Israel and Palestine here as the thread title says.

Hamas is no saint, that's clear. But they don’t exist in a vacuum. Hamas is a symptom, not the disease. The disease is the ongoing occupation, the blockade, the denial of basic human rights, and the endless cycle of violence and retribution. Let’s acknowledge Hamas’s role, but let’s not forget who holds the cards, who has the power, and who’s enforcing a system that drives people to desperate measures.

Palestinian suffering started long before any global solidarity movements emerged. It’s not global support that fuels the conflict; it’s the very real, very tangible injustices inflicted on Palestinians daily.

If there were no international outcry, if the world turned a blind eye to Palestinian suffering, do you think the conflict would end quickly and peacefully? History shows us otherwise. Silence and apathy only embolden oppression. The suffering would continue, unchecked and unreported, with the powerful crushing the powerless.

[Vrubel]

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

If there were no international outcry, if the world turned a blind eye to Palestinian suffering, do you think the conflict would end quickly and peacefully? History shows us otherwise. Silence and apathy only embolden oppression. The suffering would continue, unchecked and unreported, with the powerful crushing the powerless.

What's sustaining the Palestinians is the relative advancement and level-headedness of Israel and its allies in a post-WW2 Western world order. 

What sustains Hamas is the hate-filled irrational blatantly self-defeating unconditional Pampering of the Palestinians and demonizing of Israel for absolutely everything it does and doesn't do. This is feeding royally into the mindset of Hamas leaders comfortably in their tunnels not giving a shit about their own (civilian) deaths. 

I think the Biden proposal was reasonably "fair" and a decent "compromise". Israel agreed on the outline but Hamas purposefully made some outrageously unreasonable demands for they still feel so comfortable. This sadly means a continuation of this war and human suffering.

The whole spiel of Hamas is to act enthusiastically, to give false hope at the start and then later to add in some of their outrageous demands to torpedo the deal. Of course, all this while gaslighting Israel as the useful idiot eagerly will play along.  

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

Glenn Greenwald on debunking Israel’s claims on oct 7 about beheaded babies etc. 

 

And families that burned alive in their homes you will also doubt? Isn't it outrageous enough already?

I really don't understand your motivation here.

Edited June 14 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

Mochash = An acronymed word in hebrew means the exit/end of saturday, saturday in the evening and night before the new week.

Edited June 14 by Nivsch

[zazen]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

What's sustaining the Palestinians is the relative advancement and level-headedness of Israel and its allies in a post-WW2 Western world order. 

What sustains Hamas is the hate-filled irrational blatantly self-defeating unconditional Pampering of the Palestinians and demonizing of Israel for absolutely everything it does and doesn't do. This is feeding royally into the mindset of Hamas leaders comfortably in their tunnels not giving a shit about their own (civilian) deaths. 

I think the Biden proposal was reasonably "fair" and a decent "compromise". Israel agreed on the outline but Hamas purposefully made some outrageously unreasonable demands for they still feel so comfortable. This sadly means a continuation of this war and human suffering.

The whole spiel of Hamas is to act enthusiastically, to give false hope at the start and then later to add in some of their outrageous demands to torpedo the deal. Of course, all this while gaslighting Israel as the useful idiot eagerly will play along.  

Allow me to peel the propaganda onion so we can all cry a bit at the dire reality of the situation. So the "post-WW2 Western world order" is allegedly sustaining the Palestinians and not completely genociding them? Thats like saying 'you're lucky we give Palestinians CPR' all the while choking them politically, economically and physically. Its telling them to be grateful for a glass of water while Israel holds their head underwater.

How benevolent of this order to not have killed them off and instead enabled and funded Israel's oppression for decades. This same order has shielded Israel from accountability at the UN, armed it to the teeth, and turned a blind eye to its countless violations of international law.

Palestinians aren't pampered, they're empathised with.  Israel is the one who is tangibly pampered by the West - the US bankrolls, arms and shields Israel from every UN resolution and ICC investigation. The ICC were literally threatened by Uncle Sam mafioso style papi. Gaza isn't just a war (if you can call it that) but a warning. It's the endgame of an ideology that says some people - whether chosen by darwinian survival of the fittest or mythical sky-daddies taken literally - have the right to suppress and devastate another group of people.

This isn't a 'humble' state of being. The people may for the most part be humble (although we've seen much mockery content from the IDF) but the state and its actions are anything but. Theres nothing humble about a state that claims a divine right to someone else's land; about a military that routinely uses overwhelming force against a largely defenceless civilian population; about a government that treats international law and human rights as mere suggestions, to be ignored or twisted to suit its own purposes.

Edited June 14 by zazen

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

And families that burned alive in their homes you will also doubt? Isn't it outrageous enough already?

I really don't understand your motivation here.

Specific claims were made about what happened on Oct 7. Either it happened or it didn’t. No one has provided proof there were 40 beheaded babies which caused outrage and encouraged more force and violence used on Palestinians, but at this point the only confirmation is 1 baby was killed and it wasn’t through beheading. 

How many babies has the idf killed since oct 7 party because of outrage from this claim?

Even mainstream outlets are questioning these claims now

https://www.thetimes.com/magazines/the-times-magazine/article/israel-hamas-rape-investigation-evidence-october-7-6kzphszsj

https://archive.is/eJwj3

Any of this can be stopped if evidence is presented. 

Edited June 14 by Raze

[Twentyfirst]

@Raze You do know that you are arguing with paid Israeli shills on salary right? 

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Allow me to peel the propaganda onion so we can all cry a bit at the dire reality of the situation. So the "post-WW2 Western world order" is allegedly sustaining the Palestinians and not completely genociding them? Thats like saying 'you're lucky we give Palestinians CPR' all the while choking them politically, economically and physically. Its telling them to be grateful for a glass of water while Israel holds their head underwater.

How benevolent of this order to not have killed them off and instead enabled and funded Israel's oppression for decades. This same order has shielded Israel from accountability at the UN, armed it to the teeth, and turned a blind eye to its countless violations of international law.

Palestinians aren't pampered, they're empathised with.  Israel is the one who is tangibly pampered by the West - the US bankrolls, arms and shields Israel from every UN resolution and ICC investigation. The ICC were literally threatened by Uncle Sam mafioso style papi. Gaza isn't just a war (if you can call it that) but a warning. It's the endgame of an ideology that says some people - whether chosen by darwinian survival of the fittest or mythical sky-daddies taken literally - have the right to suppress and devastate another group of people.

This isn't a 'humble' state of being. The people may for the most part be humble (although we've seen much mockery content from the IDF) but the state and its actions are anything but. Theres nothing humble about a state that claims a divine right to someone else's land; about a military that routinely uses overwhelming force against a largely defenceless civilian population; about a government that treats international law and human rights as mere suggestions, to be ignored or twisted to suit its own purposes.

To be clear I am glad and proud that Israel is affiliated with the West and is held to account to the standards of a post-WW2 Western world order. Which gifted the world its most peaceful and prosperous era since the beginning of human history. Be wary of getting too much on your high horse on this issue as the forces you’re in effect allying with are much darker than the West, Israel or even the “Zionist” bogeyman.

I think you're already a decently principled person and you have the right to your opinions, it's just that your particular worldview has made you vulnerable to emotional manipulation, being weak and used by people much less idealist and gentle than you. Sorry if it sounds harsh what I said in my previous post but it’s true if you look honestly and holistically at how the world works. I recommend you read my post again and try to integrate it as best you can.

Edited June 14 by Vrubel

[Raze]

14 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

@Raze You do know that you are arguing with paid Israeli shills on salary right? 

As much as I disagree with him, I don’t think so. He said he supports a two state settlement and later acknowledged the siege on Gaza is collective punishment. I think he can change his mind. Even if I don’t these discussions are worthwhile for other people reading or to learn more myself.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

Specific claims were made about what happened on Oct 7. Either it happened or it didn’t. No one has provided proof there were 40 beheaded babies which caused outrage and encouraged more force and violence used on Palestinians, but at this point the only confirmation is 1 baby was killed and it wasn’t through beheading.

Even mainstream outlets are questioning these claims now

https://www.thetimes.com/magazines/the-times-magazine/article/israel-hamas-rape-investigation-evidence-october-7-6kzphszsj

https://archive.is/eJwj3

Any of this can be stopped if evidence is presented. 

What I am saying again is it doesn't matter.

Oct 7th events are horrific enough no matter how you will look at it. An argument on details will only cheapen it.

Edited June 14 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

Specific claims were made about what happened on Oct 7. Either it happened or it didn’t. No one has provided proof there were 40 beheaded babies which caused outrage and encouraged more force and violence used on Palestinians, but at this point the only confirmation is 1 baby was killed and it wasn’t through beheading. 

How many babies has the idf killed since oct 7 party because of outrage from this claim?

Even mainstream outlets are questioning these claims now

https://www.thetimes.com/magazines/the-times-magazine/article/israel-hamas-rape-investigation-evidence-october-7-6kzphszsj

https://archive.is/eJwj3

Any of this can be stopped if evidence is presented. 

Only the anti Israel voices are obsessed with the beheaded babies thing. Who is still bringing that up or talking about it, using it as justification? No one.

Even back when the news first surfaced, it was caused by some weird broken telephone Biden phrasing. Yet anti Israel voices use this to obfuscate the horrors committed on Oct 7. We don't need beheaded babies to know what happened that day was horrific. 

[Nivsch]

Just now, hundreth said:

Only the anti Israel voices are obsessed with the beheaded babies thing. Who is still bringing that up or talking about it, using it as justification? No one.

Even back when the news first surfaced, it was caused by some weird broken telephone Biden phrasing. Yet anti Israel voices use this to obfuscate the horrors committed on Oct 7. We don't need beheaded babies to know what happened that day was horrific. 

+1 ❤️

[Nivsch]

Former senior commander within Israeli Air Force during 90s and 00s and now one of the biggest activists against Netanyahu, Amir Haskel. 

In this video he distributes flyers about the demonstrations in the train.

https://x.com/AmirHaskel/status/1801346021181767817

Edited June 14 by Nivsch

[Gennadiy1981]

11 hours ago, zazen said:

Most people seem to agree with a two state solution. It does have its challenges though for example how to connect West Bank to Gaza or the concern of West Bank having a vantage point from which snipers or attacks can too easily be launched on Israel.

With two neighbours with this much bad blood between each other, neither would accept to have a militarised area overlooking the other. Hypothetically would Russia accept a militarised Ukrainian state on the hills overlooking Moscow? Never. The issue then is if West Bank is de-militarised it’s not a fully sovereign state - and how will this be enforced - Israeli check points? That becomes occupation and the whole fight starts over.

Muslim Arabs and Palestinians have also lived there and have a connection to the land - it’s also holy to them. Even if it weren’t holy - it’s not just to drive them out to Saudi Arabia. Their claims are just as valid as Jews.

Only solution that comes to my mind is if West Bank is de-militarized with no IDF or Palestinian forces and instead has international peace keepers. Gaza should be given full sovereignty with full rights any state would have - building ports, airports etc. 

I see your point but it’s not realistic, the place is too small for two states. You want to know the real solution to achieve peace? Is if one nation will be totally be gone then you will have true peace. And also why do you keep not listening to Arabs, they also want to have coastal plane like Tel Aviv and Haifa and the fertile lands like the Galilee.  I can tell for sure that you never spoke to a Palestinian who truly dreams of entire Israel. It’s you the west who impose just West Bank to them, but they want it all, that is why they keep claiming from the river to the sea, the want entire Israel. And also you keep saying demilitarized, and why would they agree while Israel would be militarized. You speak on their behalf but you don’t represent what they want. That’s why when they had West Bank, they were still seeking to get all of remaining Israel. And finally the Gaza Strip, is a very small strip of land, I still can’t imagine how 2.3 million people are squeezed there, they are living on top of each other. Your solutions are just not realistic and that’s why the PLO leaders rejected other solutions and for a good reason because it would not be feasible. Again the only solution is to either make one state but then you will dissolve the idea of Jewish state or for one nation to transfer out. It’s just for us we have nowhere to go.

@Vrubel you seem like being a very sober at this whole thing and you see both the ethical issue and at the same time the necessity of keeping Israel. See that’s why I truly appreciated Rabbi Meir Kahane who was advocating for a peaceful transfer of Palestinians as he really foresaw exactly what would happen. Think about it, let’s say if back then in 1980 they would transfer Palestinians to any Arab state or states, ok the world would scream for a month or two or say six month, but look at the beauty, we would not have all those wars and killings and no Hamas would be launching rockets and the IDF would not have to go and bomb the camps. Remember when Menachem Begin bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor. Cause at that time Iraq was about the have nuclear weapon and Israel bombed it, yes there was a huge protests back then for three month straight, and then people found other causes and moved on, but the entire idea of nuclear Iraq was totally gone and since then about forty years passed by, everyone pretty much forgot about it. Rabbi Kahane wanted to get other Arab states involved to resettle them among them and to get UN involved as there are so much money being funneled into PLO that either gets to private pockets or terrorists organizations, as oppose to resettle them, build them homes and infrastructure and then allow them to purchase or even to offer for very little or free. All this money would be for the building cities and pretty much offering them free houses, and they would blend much easy with the people who share the same identity and religion and language and culture and by now this entire problem would have been forgotten. I know there are polical profits here and I know PLO likes as they collect money form universal causes, but if his plan was truly implemented, today you would not be having refugee camps and the two people would be truly separated. Look at @Raze said there is bad blood among them, it’s like keeping a husband and wife in marriage who hate each other, for what purpose? To show that there can be peace, but at what price, so they would kill each other. I know I may not speak of political correctness, but not all solutions are politically correct, sometimes you need to be not correct but to save so many lives. 

I know many will argue then let’s still try? Try for what, for people to continue kill each other? I am not being extreme, I am being realistic. When I was a kid, and I mean under 10, I spoke to one surgeon, and I asked him a question, of how can he cut people, as he does not feel bad cutting them with a knife (scalpel) to which he replied to me and that answer I remembered for the rest of my life. He said that he has to hurt people in order to heal them.

[Gennadiy1981]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Former senior commander within Israeli Air Force during 90s and 00s and now one of the biggest activists against Netanyahu, Amir Haskel. 

In this video he distributes flyers about the demonstrations in the train.

https://x.com/AmirHaskel/status/1801346021181767817

 

@Nivsch no offense to you, but you are insulting peoples intelligence by forwarding those isolated clips. Look for the most part majority of Israelis support Netanyahu and for good reason. Look as of now Netanyahu is a powerful leader and all others like Gantz and the company are throwing political moves and career advancement and nothing else. I am not sure what you are trying to show here, that there are some individuals who don’t like Netanyahu? Ok but they are still offering the same alternative. All those in high power will move the same agenda, I feel like you are trying to apologize for Israel’s action but realize everyone here are above that and no one would care, ok let’s say other leader would bomb every other day or once a week, you don’t understand the people on this forum are either fully for Israel or fully against Israel and to them being it Gantz or Netanyahu or Lapid or even Moshe Yaalon is the same thing.  And by the way Moshe Yaalon was General during Ariel Sharon time. Honestly it just shows that you feel guilty and you wanna make things soft for some reason. You don’t seem to get it, the idea here is whether Israel has the right to defend itself or not, here is a bigger portion at stake and not in menushe.

Edited June 14 by Gennadiy1981

[Raze]

26 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Look for the most part majority of Israelis support Netanyahu and for good reason.

Quote

Only 15% of Israelis want Netanyahu to keep job after Gaza war, poll finds

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/only-15-israelis-want-netanyahu-keep-job-after-gaza-war-poll-finds-2024-01-02/

[Nivsch]

@Gennadiy1981 You are wrong.

Netanyahu is definitly less popular than before the war. Even in the last elections his coalition got just a drop more than 50% and even that was because a leftist small party was erased because was below the critical %.

I am not feeling guilty about anything and I will keep defending whatever I feel is right as I do here all the time, but I will critisize what I thing is wrong and show the beauty of Israel and the sane majority and the real broader picture going on within Israel's brain which is the aim of the twitter posts.

Netanyahu is the most dangerous kind of leaders because of his charisma he turns against his own society and country and the reason his charisma is so dense it precisely because he believes the things he says and believes the country and him are the same thing.

Edited June 14 by Nivsch

[Gennadiy1981]

@Nivsch you see to the most people on this forum they view your and my point as the same. You and I disagree on a micro level while everyone on this forum is speaking of macro level. Potentially to everyone else on this forum there is no difference between Netanyahu or Gantz and especially Moshe Yaalon. Their difference is minor but regardless they all support Israel to be a Jewish state and they view the Palestinians the same and they would pretty much act the same. And whatever they criticize the others are purely for political gain nothing else.

See you and I would disagree on some very thin items to which for most people on this forum you and I are the same, they view you and I as one. All the political leaders in the government still seek the same goal and would act pretty much the same. And don’t tell me any leader in the mainstream would quickly agree to make a Palestine inside Israel, because that is simply not true.

My friend let me tell you something it’s the people who elect the government and the government is representation of the people. Hamas represents people in Gaza as you would agree and as much as you would hate to admit for some political correctness, Netanyahu does represent Israelis today. I know it sounds painful but sometimes you need to be a man and admit. I know you will not like me for saying this but we also need to be honest, we criticize the other side for good reasons but we also need to admit about ourselves.

@Raze I saw your statistic, but you need to be careful with polls, the poll you show is composed of 746 people that’s not enough to make determination. Again currently Netanyahu is pretty powerful and popular in Israel and the people support him whether everyone likes it or not. Yes you have some who are very vocal about it but again if there was a truly large opposition, the government would be toppled as it happened many many times in the past.

Edited June 14 by Gennadiy1981

[Nivsch]

@Gennadiy1981 I don't know what you are talking about but Netanyahu's Likud party reduced from 31 members to 21 in the polls roughly 33% of its power is gone by now.

Lapid's party which defines itself as centrist (even not in the left) is 100% for two state solution during all the years of their existence I follow them daily since 2017. Let alone the more leftist parties. Gantz is pretty much the same.

Edited June 14 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

8 hours ago, Nivsch said:

And families that burned alive in their homes you will also doubt? Isn't it outrageous enough already?

I really don't understand your motivation here.

I didnt make the video, Glenn Greenwald did. He is Jewish. His video just explains how the fake stories got out and shows this one Israeli commander on tv saying 8 babies were burned alive in one room, which is debunked as being lies. Babies hung on clothes lines, put in ovens, 40 beheaded babies, all didnt happen. Only one baby was murdered as stated by Israel in the deaths. Of course what happened on oct 7th was horrific, no one is denying that, and even one baby dying is unacceptable, and yes I’m sure people were burned alive in their homes. Which is horrible.