Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Israel wants security above all. There is currently no trust for a Palestinian state. Anyone objective would see that. You can't really blame Israelis for this, who historically have been desperate for peace since day one with some serious left-wing movements dominating the country at times before gradually turning more conservative, and especially now, more careful. Who is to say that Palestine won't turn into Hamastan in no time? 

I mean it's not like oilless Arab countries have good track record of peace and stability. 

Israel has just faced one of the largest attacks in its history and is now facing wider war with hezbollah and Iran, the current policies clearly are not effective at creating security.

You can indeed blame Israelis for there being no trust for a Palestinian state because the PLO gave up armed resistance and acknowledged the existence of Israel, and rather than leverage that for peace Israel expanded settlements in the West Bank, increased the blockade on Gaza, purposefully empowered Hamas, and has killed thousands of Palestinians.

“Who is to say that Palestine won't turn into Hamastan in no time?”

So Israel is justified in permanent blockade and occupation no matter what Palestinians do because they may in the future all become Hamas. What other country is allowed to stop another country from existing because that country may try to harm them? Given that there is violence towards Israel right now and the publicly stated reasons are the occupation and blockade clearly this doesn’t create security either.

7 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

 War and reality work a certain way and I understand that, or at least I have a deep understanding for Israel's POV and the historic Jewish POV. Ideally, there would not have been any problems in the first place and we would all skip carefree on flowering meadows. But that's not this world, just look at the entirety of human history. Yes, after WW2 there was some serious advancement of Human peace but even that might be more shaky than we have assumed. 

A country that repeatedly puts other goals over the safety of their own civilians does not treasure life point blank.

The pov of the Zionist movement is to ethnically cleanse Palestine to create a Jewish state, not to treasure life and create security, so far the project has killed many people and put Jewish people at risk.

[Gennadiy1981]

8 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Interesting stuff, I didn't know much of it. Oke, so Ethiopian Jews are not a rediscovered lost tribe but just "regular Jews" like you and me who went south into Africa. And what about those people from the far east of India I sometimes see in Israel?

Right the Ethiopians are supposedly Jews like you and I. Look there was a truly Jews tribe who were rescued initially I believe under operation magic carpet, those were truly Jews and they practiced and keep the traditions. Now some neighbors who were not Jews heard that you can get to a better place and they started claiming that they are Jews as well. But guess what some people in former Soviet Union also started claiming to be Jews so they can leave the country as it was not easy to get into the States. So that’s why with the Soviet immigration a lot of none Jews got attached but that’s fine people like to go to better places that are much economically stronger, what can I say. 
Now as far as India, yes there are a large group also composed of number of million people who claim to be tribe of Menashe, the ancient Israelis. But note, all ancient Israelis today do not practice Judaism, they religion of the country they live in but in addition have a lot of similar items the Jews practice like Kosher or some keep day of rest specifically on Saturday and not Sunday or Friday. 

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

So too US and Europe whenever had to fight against guerilla.

Yes…let us analyze major anti guerrilla warfare operations by U.S. and Europe and compare them to Israel

Vietnam - despite failing to destroy the Vietcong and North Vietnamese for years, the US gov doubled down and increased war efforts, this resulted in the deaths of thousands of Americans and thousands of Vietnamese, in the end the vietcong were not destroyed so it was all pointless. Similarly in Gaza major military figures inside and outside of Israel themselves have been speaking publicly about the goal of defeating Hamas being unrealistic. At the same time the goal of rescuing the hostages through force seems to be ineffective as they’ve rescued only 7 from military means and killed at least 3. If ultimately the hostages are only saved from a ceasefire and Hamas is still operational at the wars end this will mean Israel had sacrificed its own soldiers, killed thousands of civilians, all for no reason as the end result was the same politically as it would be if they agreed to a ceasefire earlier.

Afghanistan - the US originally supported extremist jihadists in Afghanistan to fight the Soviet Union. Aside from this resulting in millions of afghani deaths in the resulting war and civil war, later this backfired for US security as the Taliban hosted Al Queda who carried out the largest terror attack in the U.S on 9/11. The US would go on to invade Afghanistan to depose of the Taliban, sacrificing thousands of their soldiers lives, trillions of dollars, and thousands of Afghanistan lives ultimately the taliban retook power now stronger having gained support from the civilian population the U.S. massacred. Similarly in Gaza Israel’s government chose to purposefully prop up religious extremist Hamas to hurt the secular PLO and damage the possibilities of long term peace with a two state solution. This ultimately backfired as Hamas carried out the largest terror attack inside Israel on Oct 7. We will see in the future if Israeli military actions will ultimately strengthen Hamas or a different extremist group.

Ireland - In response to IRA terror, Britain used repression and violence, this resulted in more terrorism followed by more repression and violence. Eventually the strategy changed and they decided to pay attention to the grievances and motivations for the attacks, this lead to the Good Friday agreement and the terrorism subsided. Similarly in Israel the state has consistently responded to terror with further repression and violence. An example of this can be seen in casualty counts for the first Intifada

https://www.btselem.org/statistics/first_intifada_tables
 

This later lead to the more violent second intifada, settler violence in occupied West Bank, blockade and barrages on Gaza, all resulting in more extreme terror. This indicates Israel is following a similar pattern to the northern ireland conflict and could potentially resolve it by addressing the core grievances of the repressed Palestinian population.

Edited June 13 by Raze

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Raze said:

Israel has just faced one of the largest attacks in its history and is now facing wider war with hezbollah and Iran, the current policies clearly are not effective at creating security.

You can indeed blame Israelis for there being no trust for a Palestinian state because the PLO gave up armed resistance and acknowledged the existence of Israel, and rather than leverage that for peace Israel expanded settlements in the West Bank, increased the blockade on Gaza, purposefully empowered Hamas, and has killed thousands of Palestinians.

“Who is to say that Palestine won't turn into Hamastan in no time?”

So Israel is justified in permanent blockade and occupation no matter what Palestinians do because they may in the future all become Hamas. What other country is allowed to stop another country from existing because that country may try to harm them? Given that there is violence towards Israel right now and the publicly stated reasons are the occupation and blockade clearly this doesn’t create security either.

A country that repeatedly puts other goals over the safety of their own civilians does not treasure life point blank.

The pov of the Zionist movement is to ethnically cleanse Palestine to create a Jewish state, not to treasure life and create security, so far the project has killed many people and put Jewish people at risk.

Oke, in all fairness you might disagree with my view and opinions but I know Israelis better than you do. I understand Israeli values, legitimate concerns and mentality. Yet you keep absolutely denying all the things that I say like a mule... Predictable.

If you feel comfortable with your narrative of blaming Israel for absolutely everything, fine stick with that. 

 

2 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Right the Ethiopians are supposedly Jews like you and I. Look there was a truly Jews tribe who were rescued initially I believe under operation magic carpet, those were truly Jews and they practiced and keep the traditions. Now some neighbors who were not Jews heard that you can get to a better place and they started claiming that they are Jews as well. But guess what some people in former Soviet Union also started claiming to be Jews so they can leave the country as it was not easy to get into the States. So that’s why with the Soviet immigration a lot of none Jews got attached but that’s fine people like to go to better places that are much economically stronger, what can I say. 
Now as far as India, yes there are a large group also composed of number of million people who claim to be tribe of Menashe, the ancient Israelis. But note, all ancient Israelis today do not practice Judaism, they religion of the country they live in but in addition have a lot of similar items the Jews practice like Kosher or some keep day of rest specifically on Saturday and not Sunday or Friday. 

What I like and deeply respect about the former Soviet Union immigrants is that despite they got a little shit for not being (fully) Jewish. They didn’t whine about it, took on the Israeli values and identity and massively uplifted the country in terms of culture, technology and economy. That deserves deep respect. 

There used to be a lot of Jews in Russia and a lot of mixing during the communist era. It’s actually quite mind-blowing to consider that a good chunk of ordinary Russians living today in Moscow or St Petersburg have Jewish ancestry or a family connection to Israel.

I dated “random” Russian girls in Europe who told me they either had a Jewish grandparent or family living in Israel. My family also has a fully Jewish branch and a Russian one.

The paradox of Jewish assimilation is that it both increases and decreases the world Jewish population at the same time haha

Edited June 13 by Vrubel

[Gennadiy1981]

8 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Dude cant you see that you are talking basically like a far right Israeli and even justifying the illegal settlements that basically nobody in the world supports except far right Israelis. Not even many Israelis dont support it. I know @Nivsch has expressed his concerns about it. 

No offense but you seem like someone who would vote for Ben Gvir.

If I am wrong, you can correct me.

Lol and lol. You quote UN resolutions, I am sure you do not see it but all resolutions are primarily antisemitic. I can’t remember how many you quote, let’s say there are ten of them, but what difference does it make even if we and 100 of them. At the end of the day they are still on a paper and nothing else, it’s unfortunate that they don’t print them on a toilet paper, they would have had more use.

You fail to see the difference between IDF and Islamic terrorism. IDF prime goal is to eliminate terrorists while doing their best to keep innocent civilians alive, the goal of terrorists is precisely to target innocent civilians, so what kind of conversation we can have if you fail to misunderstand the main difference. That’s why we can care less of people like you and UN who try to teach us ethics. 
 

And I do want to correct you, I really would love to vote for Rabbi Meir Kahane (unfortunately he was killed in 1990) but his platform was to transfer Palestinian people out of Israel. And to be frank with you, today, not a single Palestinian would die or be bombarded, because there would not be a single one living in Israel. This is what historically is called exchange of population. In 1948 we took about 800,000 of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries and that would be a second stage to give the Arabs back to them. And just for your info the exchange of population is something that has been practiced. After WW2 the Poland removed eight million ethnic Germans and so did Chehoslovakia  removed four million ethnic Germans. Did you know that in 1946 India and Pakistan exchanged 20 million people? Did you know that in 1923 Greece and Turkey exchanged million of people? And so on and so forth.

Look those things need to be done not because I hate other people, it’s the otherwise, because there are some people that are just not compatible to be with others, it’s a reality. There is no need to force them to live together and constantly kill each other. For what? For liberalism? That’s stupid. Once you separate people, one thing for sure there won’t be any killing, because they would not be next to each other. So an Arab would not go to a Jewish village to carry an attack and the IDF would not retaliate by killing their family. That was the platform of Rabbi Meir Kahane and his main point was that he did not want to see death or under, h obviously did not want to see Jewish people get killed but of course he did not want to see Arab people getting killed. Or you still would argue that to prove liberalism and equality let people be stuck together and let them kill each other?

Also you mention that PLO is not Hamas? Have you ever read their charter? The first or second phrase in their charter calls to eliminate Israel of any shape or size and they are the ones called from the river to the Sea. And that’s entire Israel. And you also mentioned that Saudi and Quatar got upset with us? With friends like that we don’t need enemies. We were without their alliance before and we can be perfectly fine without them after. The peace plan that PLO offers is dismantle of Israel. I get it and I respect it, but then don’t get upset at me for acting the way I act.

Edited June 13 by Gennadiy1981

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Lol and lol. You quote UN resolutions, I am sure you do not see it but all resolutions are primarily antisemitic

Hahahahahahahahhaahha 

 

2 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

IDF prime goal is to eliminate terrorists while doing their best to keep innocent civilians alive,

Hahhahahaahahahahahahhaahah 

 

2 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

After WW2 the Poland removed eight million ethnic Germans and so did Chehoslovakia  removed four million ethnic Germans.

Does it occur you that Germany had done basically genocide in those countries or treated them like shit? Germany killed like 17% of Polish population in 5 years. Palestine treated Arab Jews fairly well until they started getting dumped in mass on the 1920s.

2 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Did you know that in 1923 Greece and Turkey exchanged million of people?

They were part of a brutal Ottoman occupation for 500 years.

You keep missing historical injustices and historical context.

 

2 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Look those things need to be done not because I hate other people, it’s the otherwise, because there are some people that are just not compatible to be with others, it’s a reality. There is no need to force them to live together and constantly kill each other. For what?

Totally agreed. I do not think 1 state would work. So 2 states. Each living in their own state. Just like Germany and Poland are today 2 different states. What is the problem? You keep not answering me to this.

2 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

The peace plan that PLO offers is dismantle of Israel.

How so? Does PLO want to create the border of Palestine to include all of Israel? Where have they said so in the negotiations they have done.

Send me some sources

[Raze]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Oke, in all fairness you might disagree with my view and opinions but I know Israelis better than you do. I understand Israeli values, legitimate concerns and mentality. Yet you keep absolutely denying all the things that I say like a mule... Predictable.

If you feel comfortable with your narrative of blaming Israel for absolutely everything, fine stick with that. 

Thousands of Israelis are literally marching in the streets because they don’t think their government values the hostages lives enough.

 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

 

[Inliytened1]

On 6/9/2024 at 11:30 AM, Leo Gura said:

And the reason they do it so shamelessly is because they really brainwashed themselves into believing their are God's "children of light." That's the crux of this whole thing. When you brainwash people into taking the Jewish identity so seriously, this is the end result.

Lolz.

It's more just the suffering they have been through.  Their leadership at this point has become numb.  It's plain to see with Netanyahu.   Jews don't label themselves like that.  They are very humble at heart.

Edited June 14 by Inliytened1

[Gennadiy1981]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Hahahahahahahahhaahha 

 

Hahhahahaahahahahahahhaahah 

 

Does it occur you that Germany had done basically genocide in those countries or treated them like shit? Germany killed like 17% of Polish population in 5 years. Palestine treated Arab Jews fairly well until they started getting dumped in mass on the 1920s.

They were part of a brutal Ottoman occupation for 500 years.

You keep missing historical injustices and historical context.

 

Totally agreed. I do not think 1 state would work. So 2 states. Each living in their own state. Just like Germany and Poland are today 2 different states. What is the problem? You keep not answering me to this.

How so? Does PLO want to create the border of Palestine to include all of Israel? Where have they said so in the negotiations they have done.

Send me some sources

Of course my friend I will show to you the PLO charter, it’s in their article 15, I just google one source online but you can see at other source since it’s the same charter, here they are saying to eradicate Zionism.

https://www.pac-usa.org/the_palestinian_charter.htm

So don’t expect me to act different than I act.

Another point, Jews never lived well under Muslim rule, we got status of Dhimi a second class citizen where we had to be quiet and all our places of worship or homes had to be built below the Islamic neighbor. Ask me, I would choose to live under European oppression thousand times over and still that was not the best. So living under Islamic rule was a nightmare and people were kept alive because they were practicing one God religion and if you were secular you would most likely be killed or force to convert to one God religion. So thanks but no thanks. Never again would we want to live like Dhimis what they call us.

I am not sure why you keep comparing us to Germany. I understand if a Jew who lived in Germany would ever say that when we become majority we would call Germany Israel, maybe you would have some leg to stand on. And of course if Jews were blowing themselves us in Germany, then you would have an argument to say what they did was sort of right. But all a Jew w aged to be was a good citizen and indeed they stopped calling themselves Jews and called themselves German of Mossaic persuasion. So comparing the two is like day and night.

I don’t know why you keep beating on the two states in one state. Look Israel is a very small country, it’s not feasible to make two states. Just one example, how do you plan to connect West Bank and Gaza? They are geographically apart and didn’t tell me you will cut Israel in half. And why don’t you advocate for Saudi Arabia that is by the way pretty much empty country, that has a lot of uninhabited land. Finally what you call West Bank is our Israel’s heartland. Place like Hebron where our ancestors are buried Abraham and Sara, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Leah. Then we have place like Schechem with Joseph Tumb, place like Jericho where Joshua blew the horn for the walls to fail, then place like Beit Lehem where our foremother Rachel was, and so on. That is biblical Israel and we have a very strong connection to it. 
 

And the cities are. Or Palestinian names but Jewish names. But you will ask what about Nabulus? It’s not a Nabulus, it’s called Schechem, it’s in the Bible. The way it got its name was the Romans renamed many cities and they call it Naples, which in Latin would be Napulus. In Arabic there are no middle letter P but B so it became Nabulus, so if anyone truly should have claims then it would be Italians. 
 

Look the entire country is the size of state of New Jersey. And don’t keep repeating that times are different. Don’t say PLO vs Hamas. Look there are smart Arabs and dumb one who live there. The dumb one are the one say what they mean, the smart ones mean the same but they play with their words, but their idea is all the same, to push us into the sea. What bothered them to start war with us when they had West Bank. I tell you what bothers them, any size or shape of Israel, because what you fail to understand is that what was under Islamic rule once shall always be and we are like a pimple to their ego. 
I want to quote to you from Wikipedia what one Palestinian say in a Dutch newspaper trouw 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen

"The Palestinian people does not exist … there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese . Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of one people, the Arab nation [...] Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons[...] Once we have acquired all our rights in all of Palestine, we must not delay for a moment the reunification of Jordan and Palestine" .
 

Again I understand the Arabs, the Arabs perfectly understand me, however neither of us can understand you. 
 

You truly want peace, think of other solutions. Be creative.

 

[Gennadiy1981]

4 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

 

I don’t know what you are trying to show with this video. Ok a woman is being emotional as many people are. This commentator is being silly, claiming that the person who wears traditional Jews close is more Jews. My friend the beauty of Judaism is that a Jew is a Jew, does not matter if you wear black hat, or just a kippah, have sidelocks or not, republican or democrat, left or right, gay or straight, proud or self hating, smart or dumb, Biden or Trump supporter (by the way) someone who was born or a convert, white, black, brown or with pocadots Jew is a Jew and all are part of Israel.

Oh and by the way need to address something here, I see it’s a bit common on this forum on lately on social media showing this small fringe Orthodox Jews who claim Israel has no right to exist. So you should know it’s an opinion based and not from Holly scriptures, a very important point that many people misunderstand. No where in the Holly scriptures whether it is Torah, Tanah, Gemorah, Profits, Judges and Midrash says anything that we are not allowed to have a Jewish state (indeed it is on the contrary), those individuals quote an opinion of one Rabbi, but again it is opinion and not from the Bible. And that’s fine we can all have opinions, even saying that Trump is horrible, is also an opinion and not a fact. Lol. 

Edited June 14 by Gennadiy1981

[Merkabah Star]

6 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

 

It is scary the reaction of Jewish people to this conflict, like this Karen, so unhinged and unreasonable. 

[Merkabah Star]

We haven’t seen sadism like this, starving children, since nazi germany. Total disgrace. 

Edited June 14 by Merkabah Star

[Merkabah Star]

John Mearsheimer: The Biden Admin Is LYING About The Cease Fire Deal & Hamas

 

[Vrubel]

@Merkabah Star Most of the world is watching footage of pro-Palestine Karens allied with Islamists taking over European squares acting all obnoxious and hostile turning this complex geopolitical issue into a culture war issue and acting surprised why the (far) right suddenly surged in popularity.

It's a sad fact that this pro-plasticine movement should be there for the lives and well-being of Palestinians but instead, it's a useful pressure tool used by Hamas to continue to set its unreasonable demands in the hostage negotiations. So I am afraid this war will continue on once again. 

 

Edited June 14 by Vrubel

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Look Israel is a very small country, it’s not feasible to make two states. Just one example, how do you plan to connect West Bank and Gaza? They are geographically apart and didn’t tell me you will cut Israel in half. And why don’t you advocate for Saudi Arabia that is by the way pretty much empty country, that has a lot of uninhabited land. Finally what you call West Bank is our Israel’s heartland. Place like Hebron where our ancestors are buried Abraham and Sara, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Leah. Then we have place like Schechem with Joseph Tumb, place like Jericho where Joshua blew the horn for the walls to fail, then place like Beit Lehem where our foremother Rachel was, and so on. That is biblical Israel and we have a very strong connection to it. 

Most people seem to agree with a two state solution. It does have its challenges though for example how to connect West Bank to Gaza or the concern of West Bank having a vantage point from which snipers or attacks can too easily be launched on Israel.

With two neighbours with this much bad blood between each other, neither would accept to have a militarised area overlooking the other. Hypothetically would Russia accept a militarised Ukrainian state on the hills overlooking Moscow? Never. The issue then is if West Bank is de-militarised it’s not a fully sovereign state - and how will this be enforced - Israeli check points? That becomes occupation and the whole fight starts over.

Muslim Arabs and Palestinians have also lived there and have a connection to the land - it’s also holy to them. Even if it weren’t holy - it’s not just to drive them out to Saudi Arabia. Their claims are just as valid as Jews.

Only solution that comes to my mind is if West Bank is de-militarized with no IDF or Palestinian forces and instead has international peace keepers. Gaza should be given full sovereignty with full rights any state would have - building ports, airports etc. 

Edited June 14 by zazen

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

We haven’t seen sadism like this, starving children, since nazi germany. Total disgrace. 

What about Yemen and literally all the countless conflicts and wars involving Muslims. Oh wait... no Jews involved. Never mind.

Give Hamas some credit for this show. Don't be a useful idiot for them. The Irony is that without the unconditional pampering of Palestinians by the hivemind movement. This war would have never started or ended quickly with much less Palestinian suffering and death. 

[Merkabah Star]

@Vrubel your country is massacring and starving children. You can’t blame Hamas for that. It’s all on Israel’s and Israelis shoulders. 
 

if this was a Jewish child it would be shut down within minutes. 
 

 

[Merkabah Star]

Glenn Greenwald on debunking Israel’s claims on oct 7 about beheaded babies etc.