Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Raze]

 

Edited June 12 by Raze

[Twentyfirst]

@Raze They don't care. It's impossible for them to care. They can only pretend and even then they don't do it

[Twentyfirst]

Take a shot every time an Israeli shill says "democracy" "LGBTQ" or "women's rights" and you'll be wobbling in no time 

[Loveeee]

 

[Vrubel]

14 hours ago, Raze said:

Not true, Israeli Colonel Doron Hadar was the commander of Israel's military negotiation unit with 27 years of experience, says himself Israel had many chances to get the hundreds of hostages back safely and quickly, but instead engaged in a military campaign that killed thousands of civilians, multiple hostages, all to save just 7.

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hyw3njjr0

Israel’s reverence for life is exactly what terrorists see as Israel’s biggest weakness and seek to exploit. They say it themselves "We love death as much as the Jews love life". This is also where Netanyahu bases the "Sons of Light vs the Sons of Darkness" on, (what he said one time directly after the 7/10 attack).
It's a complex situation with a lot of nuances but in essence, Israelis cheer when hostages are rescued and they cheer when they take them unthinking of the consequences for themselves or their loved ones. Maybe I and most "normal" Israelis would give in more to Hamas blackmailing and would have made a deal already but Netanyahu is not you or me. I know Netanyahu, he is steadfast and not one that easily gives in. As much as I dislike him because of his personal politicking that is intertwined with all this, there is definitely something to be said for his no-bullshit hard-nosed approach. 

Edited June 13 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

9 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Sorry for my misspelling yes Pashtuns. Some claim that they are ancient Israelites who were forcibly converted to Islam. 
So the ancient Israelites had 12 tribes one for each son of Jacob. They were pretty much all holding separate and rarely mix. Each tribe received its own land dedication, so they were Simeonites, Reuveonites and etc. Judah was a tribe that got Jerusalem area and hence they are what we call Jews today but Jews were one of the tribes of Israelites. Now today whom we call Jews are all from tribe of Judah even Ethiopian Jews, as well as Iraqi Jews, Bukharian Jews and Gorsky and so on, those are all Jews. The others are technically lost and are not practicing Judaism at the current moment. But yes some claim in Syria (currently practicing Islam) some in India, I heard some in Eastern Europe, some Native American Indians claim, some in Africa, and some even in Iran (excluding Iranian Jews) but none practice Judaism currently, though they have a very close practices to Judaism. Again today it’s theory only.

So the mainstream Jew is the one who calls or consider themselves Jewish (even self hating Jews who claim don’t want anything to do with Judaism and those who converted to other religions) they are what you would call mainstream of Jews descended from Judah. 

According to the prophecy they will only be revealed at the end of times and not before. Again just quoting what says and not putting my opinion here. In my opinion if they would all reveal now, man, our current state would be too small and then we would need to expand. Oh boy imagine all the comments below.
 

Interesting stuff, I didn't know much of it. Oke, so Ethiopian Jews are not a rediscovered lost tribe but just "regular Jews" like you and me who went south into Africa. And what about those people from the far east of India I sometimes see in Israel?

Edited June 13 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

59 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Israel’s reverence for life is exactly what terrorists see as Israel’s biggest weakness and seek to exploit. They say it themselves "We love death as much as the Jews love life"

Yes many people don't appreciate how sophisticated terror organizations and hamas particullary defense mechanisms are.

Edited June 13 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

16 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

 It’s funny you call me ignorant but when I quote facts you totally ignore the. First of all it’s not different times different circumstances, not sure if you ever heard expression that the more things change the more they remain the same. Also we are not speaking of thousand years ago, the neighboring countries were at odds with us just the past fifty years ago.

You are also stuck on the DNA test. Your argument that it’s illegal is Israel is flawed, it’s not true. This test is complicated and I can tell, you did not looked deep into it as the test cannot identify things what you mention. But be it as it may, most Jews do have middle eastern dna but being Jewish is also someone who can convert. And if you sincerely convert to being Jewish, guess what, you would become as much Israeli citizen as I would be and then I just hope you will be defending Israel on this forum as I do.

This entire DNA is not an argument. I was born in former Soviet Union, I never done dna there and even my classmates in school never done dna test on me, but they told me to get a hell out of their country and I was Jewish. I am not sure if they had X-ray vision but they clearly saw me being Jewish and mind you I was not wearing any Jewish clothes, not Yarmulke or black hat or had I sidelocks on my hair. And so you should know there was a time that I told my parents that I am not going back to school, until we emigrated.

Now, there are 21 Arab states exists, there is 600 times more land that they have, I am not going into debate historically if they had that land, by the way they did not, but they exist now and that’s facts on the ground. I am not willing to mingle with only one Jewish state. And yes, Palestine where today Israel never existed as a country, look into encyclopedia, there was never a Palestine King or president, there was no currency, no flag, no language, no anything, I am not absorbing that lie. However if they want to create Palestine now in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else, they are more than welcome, but it will not be created inside my country, because that would be a suicide for us. Again we only have one Jewish state we can’t afford to loose it.

Finally, you need to know how to deffirentiate what says in news paper and what’s on the legal level. If West Bank was illegal, they would sent army and remove us. I can tell you did not love history lessons, but there were many instances where NATO came in and did carnage’s to countries that did hold illegal land. Yes US fully support us and don’t tell me that we as a few people control the entire US, that’s just baloney, we are too small to control such a mega power. Also what you call West Bank, prior was never under an ownership of any country. We did not take it from another rulers. The only country historically existed on the West Bank was ancient Israel. Otherwise there was no historically any country existing there. 
 

Also we all seems to go around the same bush here, people keep asking the same questions and we keep giving the same answers. I think we came to a point that we better off just copy and paste, you keep copy and paste your statements and I will do the same.

You want to speak rational, this is rationality I am giving you. We will not create Palestine within Israel, that you can forget, I am telling you facts based. I don’t know if you don’t believe me or you refuse to believe me, but this is a fact. This land cannnot be broken into two states, it’s two small, it’s not feasible, it’s not continuous. Why can’t you come up with different solutions. Why are you beating only on that solution. Again we only have one Jewish state, we cannot afford to loose it. If we had 21 states, you know, probably we could have gambled with it, whatever, if we would loose one when things go bad, we would have 20 to go. Here, if we loose it, where would we go. Into the sea? 
 

If you truly want to be creative, create other solution, but as I state to you humbly, we will not accept the stuff that I mention. I am not sure if you don’t believe me, or you refuse to believe me, I am telling you sincerely and honestly, No. I don’t know what other ways I can say No. and I do want to apologize for my citizens who would be giving false hope, and they really should not be doing such as deep down they don’t believe themselves. I don’t like when politicians know they will not do it, but they play games and playing victim card that they would do different if they could but the circumstance does not allow them otherwise. No, I am telling you you hear honestly. Again if you are a peace seeker come up with a different solution and then we can speak.

Dude cant you see that you are talking basically like a far right Israeli and even justifying the illegal settlements that basically nobody in the world supports except far right Israelis. Not even many Israelis dont support it. I know @Nivsch has expressed his concerns about it. 

No offense but you seem like someone who would vote for Ben Gvir.

If I am wrong, you can correct me.

Edited June 13 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

35 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

settlements that basically nobody in the world supports except far right Israelis. Not even many Israelis dont support it. I know @Nivsch has expressed his concerns about it. 

I am for two state solution but he is right in the sense that giving palestinians ALL of West Bank will be a security suicide due to its strategic height and strategic depth, what means the quarter or third western part of west bank has most of it to stay under Israeli rule.

The settlements project is not purely "evil" thing but actually has valid reason to it originally. The ever continuity of it is the problem.

Edited June 13 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

38 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I am for two state solution but he is right in the sense that giving palestinians ALL of West Bank will be a security suicide due to its strategic height and strategic depth, what means the quarter or third western part of west bank has most of it to stay under Israeli rule.

Then you will get endless terrorist attacks and hatred from Palestinians and despised by most of the world . If that is what you want go ahead.

Oh yes, also it will make normalization of relations with other Arab states 10x harder. Saudi and Qatar have made it clear they wont normalize relations without a proper Palestinian state.

38 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The settlements project is not purely "evil" thing but actually has valid reason to it originally.

Nothing in life is purely evil. Putin invasion of Ukraine also has some logic behind it if you try to look for it.

You can rationalize everything, including Generplans Ost if you are creative enough.

Does not mean it is the right thing to do and should be allowed to proceed.

You have struck me as the most moderate Israeli in this forum given all you have written here, but you just spat out right wing Israeli arguments now.

Edited June 13 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

A scholar inquired, "But is this not the way of nature, Master? Do not all creatures struggle, one against another?"

"Nature knows struggle," the Master agreed, "but not hate. The lion does not loathe the gazelle, nor does the oak begrudge the vine its light. It is only man who adds to the struggle the poison of hatred, the madness of greed. We have crafted weapons that could scorch the earth, yet we squabble like children over lines drawn in sand."

A young girl, her eyes bright with unshed tears, asked, "Will there never be peace, Master?"

And here the Master's face shone, as if lit from within. "Peace will come, little one. Not from treaties inked by the hands of deceivers, but from a great awakening. For even now, in the hearts of men and women in every land, a truth is dawning: that we are all branches of one tree, waves of one sea. The lies that divide us — of race, of creed, of border — are being seen for what they are: shadows cast by our own fears.

“As this light spreads, the merchants of war will find their arsenals rusting and their rhetoric falling on deaf ears. The makers of hatred will speak to empty halls. For a people awakened cannot be turned against their own heart, their own flesh. This is why they fear truth above all else, why they darken the air with lies.”

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi West bank which by the way was taken from Jordan, is not even close to be the root of the Palestinian terror. 

Your analogue is wrong in my opinion. The occupation of at least the western strip of west bank was necessary for survival reason and existential threat what isn't at all the case with putin.

Edited June 13 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

14 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi West bank  is not even close to be the root of the Palestinian terror. It was a Jordanian area by the way.

 

It can be whatever it wanted, people now call it occupied Palestinian land and will act according to that. I am talking practical terms here. And the brutal way Israel treats people there does not help.

14 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Your analogue is wrong in my opinion. The occupation of at least the western strip of west bank was necessary for survival reason and existential threat what isn't at all the case with putin.

Because that is how you see. Putin sees it differently. Putin would say that a superpower with nuclear weapons at his doorstep that can wipe Russia off the map, is a bigger or equal threat than some radical Jihadists that at their best can just scratch Israel. I do not endorse what he did, just saying that many Russians justify his devilry using this argument.

Lastly, do not forget that the official recognized Palestinian government is the PLO, not Hamas.

PLO are not jihadist radicals that want to wipe Israel out and would start sending rockets to Israel first thing.

They seem to be reasonable and would not start attacking Israel.

They can create conditions to the new Palestinian state, one of them being that radical terrorist groups like Hamas will not be allowed to take power.

Edited June 13 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

a superpower with nuclear weapons at his doorstep that can wipe Russia off the map

Now replace a superpower with "Iran" and Russia with "Israel" (×100s tinier) and now you understand why Israel wants to stop Iran.

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

some radical Jihadists that at their best can just scratch Israel.

*Some five Arab countries.

This is the equation you see in front of your eyes in 1967.

Edited June 13 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

11 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Now replace a superpower with "Iran" and Russia with "Israel" (×100s tinier) and now you understand why Israel wants to stop Iran.

I am not talking about Iran man, I am talking about Palestine here. Iran is of course a big threat. However, considering they do not have nuclear weapons (at least as we know of) and Israel does, I cannot call Iran an existential threat. But I may be wrong. Anyway, this was not about Iran.

10 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Some five Arab countries

Yes but that was in 1967, things are totally different now. And again, we are talking about Palestine here. Recognizing a palestinian state would only ease tensions. Hezbollah would calm down, so would the Houthis. Saudi Arabia and Qatar could become allies.

Leo has said it best, Israel wants land more than it wants peace. If they give up land (West Bank) and recognize Palestine, their peace prospects will increase.

[Raze]

7 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Israel’s reverence for life is exactly what terrorists see as Israel’s biggest weakness and seek to exploit. They say it themselves "We love death as much as the Jews love life". This is also where Netanyahu bases the "Sons of Light vs the Sons of Darkness" on, (what he said one time directly after the 7/10 attack).
It's a complex situation with a lot of nuances but in essence, Israelis cheer when hostages are rescued and they cheer when they take them unthinking of the consequences for themselves or their loved ones. Maybe I and most "normal" Israelis would give in more to Hamas blackmailing and would have made a deal already but Netanyahu is not you or me. I know Netanyahu, he is steadfast and not one that easily gives in. As much as I dislike him because of his personal politicking that is intertwined with all this, there is definitely something to be said for his no-bullshit hard-nosed approach. 

What you’re saying makes no sense. Israel could get all the hostages back safely, instead it’s invaded Gaza killing many of its own hostages. Israel could have encouraged a peaceful Palestinian movement, instead it refused cease fires from Hamas but funneled money to them despite their terror activities. Israel literally has an operation procedure to assassinate their own people to avoid capture. Call it a hard nose approach or whatever, it is not a “reverence for life”.

Also, a reverence for life includes all life, not just Israelis. Throughout the history of the Israel state it has killed thousands upon thousands of non-Israeli civilians. Justify it as you will, but that is not a reverence for life. 

Edited June 13 by Raze

[Raze]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi West bank which by the way was taken from Jordan, is not even close to be the root of the Palestinian terror. 

Your analogue is wrong in my opinion. The occupation of at least the western strip of west bank was necessary for survival reason and existential threat what isn't at all the case with putin.

1. Then why has terrorism from the West Bank increased over time? Prior to the first intifada the population was so passive Israel controlled it with a small amount of forces. The first intifada especially at the beginning was largely peaceful. 
 

2. how does the West Bank post an existential threat to Israel? What forces in the West Bank can destroy Israel, keeping in mind the PLO gave up armed resistance decades ago. 
 

3. Israel is expanding settlements in the West Bank further taking over Palestinian territory, and settlers have killed hundreds, and in Gaza Israel has killed tens of thousands and are in the process of making it unlivable. Does Israel not pose an existential risk to Palestine given it is a far greater loss than what Israel is facing? Does this justify Iran funneling money to Hamas and Hezbollah to resist to you by the same token if trying to control someone else’s territory is justified for defense? Keeping in mind Iran like the rest of the world votes for a two state solution and Hezbollah said they’d stop striking Israel if a ceasefire in Gaza is released, a ceasefire again the rest of the world also agrees with, just not Israel.

Edited June 13 by Raze

[Vrubel]

52 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Leo has said it best, Israel wants land more than it wants peace. If they give up land (West Bank) and recognize Palestine, their peace prospects will increase.

Israel wants security above all. There is currently no trust for a Palestinian state. Anyone objective would see that. You can't really blame Israelis for this, who historically have been desperate for peace since day one with some serious left-wing movements dominating the country at times before gradually turning more conservative, and especially now, more careful. Who is to say that Palestine won't turn into Hamastan in no time? 

I mean it's not like oilless Arab countries have a good track record of peace and stability. It's absolutely out of the question that a Palestinian state can be militarized apart from a security force to keep the armed riffraff groups in check so they won't organize themselves into full-fledged and well-funded terrorist organizations just like Israel is doing now by means of "occupation." 

29 minutes ago, Raze said:

What you’re saying makes no sense. Israel could get all the hostages back safely, instead it’s invaded Gaza killing many of its own hostages. Israel could have encouraged a peaceful Palestinian movement, instead it refused cease fires from Hamas but funneled money to them despite their terror activities. Israel literally has an operation procedure to assassinate their own people to avoid capture. Call it a hard nose approach or whatever, it is not a “reverence for life”.

War and reality work a certain way and I understand that, or at least I have a deep understanding for Israel's POV and the historic Jewish POV. Ideally, there would not have been any problems in the first place and we would all skip carefree on flowering meadows. But that's not this world, just look at the entirety of human history. Yes, after WW2 there was some serious advancement of Human peace but even that might be more shaky than we have assumed. 

Edited June 13 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

32 minutes ago, Raze said:

What you’re saying makes no sense. Israel could get all the hostages back safely, instead it’s invaded Gaza killing many of its own hostages. Israel could have encouraged a peaceful Palestinian movement, instead it refused cease fires from Hamas but funneled money to them despite their terror activities. Israel literally has an operation procedure to assassinate their own people to avoid capture. Call it a hard nose approach or whatever, it is not a “reverence for life”.

Also, a reverence for life includes all life, not just Israelis. Throughout the history of the Israel state it has killed thousands upon thousands of non-Israeli civilians. Justify it as you will, but that is not a reverence for life. 

So too US and Europe whenever had to fight against guerilla.