Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Vrubel]

If that video title is referring to Hamas then yes. Otherwise, it’s such an obvious shilling to Hamas psychological manipulations.

Nobody likes it when civilians die (apart from Hamas maybe). Suppose you don’t want your civilians to die in a hostage rescue operation. Please don’t take the hostages in the first place and certainly don’t keep them in densely populated areas. 

No edgy theories and zoom-in on Israel's extremists will save you from the most apparent fact that a life-loving advanced democracy is securing itself from unthinking savages. This terminology is not a demonization but an obvious description of their behavior. 

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

There is a reason DNA tests are illegal in Israel. Because if people started doing them, they would realize that they do not belong there and are just shameless colonizers and their whole identity would collapse.

What that shameless is this kind of canceling attitude towards people feelings and sense of belonging and reducing it down to some DNA test. Jews lived here for centuries as a majority and after that for centuries as a minority.

Edited June 12 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

will save you from the most apparent fact that a life-loving advanced democracy is securing itself from unthinking savages.

Please stop with this biased cringe. It is delusional.

Let me sober you with some actual reality

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/11/un-children-conflict-gaza-russia-sudan/3120d6ee-2839-11ef-835a-2a6acac1f8a6_story.html

"For the first time, the U.N. report put Israeli forces on its blacklist of countries that violate children's rights for the killing and maiming of children and attacking schools and hospitals".

Very life loving indeed.

Edited June 12 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

52 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

What that shameless is this kind of canceling attitude towards people feelings and sense of belonging and reducing it down to some DNA test. Jews lived here for centuries as a majority and after that for centuries as a minority.

Well you do the same for Palestinians all the time. 

Many Israelis say "Palestine does not exist" and other shameless lies.

Also, nobody is saying there were no Jews there.

How many times do I have to say it:

The issue is NOT with Middle Eastern Jews but with EUROPEAN Jews that mass migrated there from 1900 onward.

There is little to no proof a white polish guy is autochthonous to an Arab land.

If there is proof, do a DNA test for it.

Why should people believe you that a white European Polish is from the middle east from 2000 years ago. A lot of shit can happen in 2000 years. I would not be suprised if some of the European Jews that went to Israel actually became Jews during the millenias they were in Europe and have 0 relation to the land itself. They were basically White Europeans that became one day Jews. Just because the land is claimed to be "Jewish" land does not mean they are entitled to it unless they have roots from there.

If you actually talk with people that dont like Israel, that is the main argument they give. They find it basically settler colonialism.

So do not attack me personally, I am voicing out the most common argument I hear against Israel.

If you want to debunk the lie, you use facts. 

Thats all.

The Torah is not a fact, sorry.

 

Edited June 12 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

@Karmadhi There is a land called Arabia and a land called Judea. Judea was and still is a geographic region within Israel. Judea - Jews, rings a bell?

I think a big reason why Israel is called Israel and not Judea is because the founding Zionists didn't want to stigmatize themselves for billions of Christians (the name is very similar to Judas). Also maybe because Judea used to be a very "puritan" austere and inward kingdom while Israel was more open and cosmopolitan. 

My guess is that the secular founding Zionists identified more with Israel as perhaps more religious Jews would identify more with Judea.

But the fact that Israel's founding fathers were secular gives you a hint it's not only about the bible. 

 

Edited June 12 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

42 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

My guess is that the secular founding Zionists identified more with Israel

We were lucky haha

[Gennadiy1981]

22 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

A different Perspective on All this crazy going on : 

 

 

very nice video, very deep in thought. Actually if you are on a very high human development level you would appreciate it. In general in pretty much all woke protests many people don’t know what they are protesting and he is correct for referring to them as useful idiots. I don’t think communism is realistic to achieve and whoever uses communism is actually usurping the ideology for their own power grab. But seriously very deep video.

[Nivsch]

[Gennadiy1981]

5 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

It is illegal under international law. UN has said it clearly. No country supports it. Only hardcore Jews like yourself.

Different times, different circumstances, different leaders. You cannot compare.

Still 1000x better than how Europe treated Jews. For the most part they lived together in harmony. Plenty of Jews came to Palestine and were welcomed. Of course not everyone was happy about that, so here we go. And israel did 1000x worse afterwards, so...

No they will not. That is what Israel wants. To create greater Israel and within it, to treat certain groups as lower citizens aka apartheid.

If you guys were serious about peace, you would have Israel within 1960s borders with top tier security, you would be much safer than having to micro manage the West Bank and Gaza. But you want land more than security. That is the issue.

Your fundamental argument for shameless illegal land grab is religious nonsense. When you start talking to me about Bible stuff, then you already lost. Nobody uses religion to justify shit on 2024. We are beyond that now.

If you want to be serious about it, do a DNA test and see if you are actually from that land you call Israel. Science is how you prove this shit, not religion.

When Islam uses holy books to justify stuff, they get shamed for it.

There is a reason DNA tests are illegal in Israel. Because if people started doing them, they would realize that they do not belong there and are just shameless colonizers and their whole identity would collapse.

@Karmadhi It’s funny you call me ignorant but when I quote facts you totally ignore the. First of all it’s not different times different circumstances, not sure if you ever heard expression that the more things change the more they remain the same. Also we are not speaking of thousand years ago, the neighboring countries were at odds with us just the past fifty years ago.

You are also stuck on the DNA test. Your argument that it’s illegal is Israel is flawed, it’s not true. This test is complicated and I can tell, you did not looked deep into it as the test cannot identify things what you mention. But be it as it may, most Jews do have middle eastern dna but being Jewish is also someone who can convert. And if you sincerely convert to being Jewish, guess what, you would become as much Israeli citizen as I would be and then I just hope you will be defending Israel on this forum as I do.

This entire DNA is not an argument. I was born in former Soviet Union, I never done dna there and even my classmates in school never done dna test on me, but they told me to get a hell out of their country and I was Jewish. I am not sure if they had X-ray vision but they clearly saw me being Jewish and mind you I was not wearing any Jewish clothes, not Yarmulke or black hat or had I sidelocks on my hair. And so you should know there was a time that I told my parents that I am not going back to school, until we emigrated.

Now, there are 21 Arab states exists, there is 600 times more land that they have, I am not going into debate historically if they had that land, by the way they did not, but they exist now and that’s facts on the ground. I am not willing to mingle with only one Jewish state. And yes, Palestine where today Israel never existed as a country, look into encyclopedia, there was never a Palestine King or president, there was no currency, no flag, no language, no anything, I am not absorbing that lie. However if they want to create Palestine now in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else, they are more than welcome, but it will not be created inside my country, because that would be a suicide for us. Again we only have one Jewish state we can’t afford to loose it.

Finally, you need to know how to deffirentiate what says in news paper and what’s on the legal level. If West Bank was illegal, they would sent army and remove us. I can tell you did not love history lessons, but there were many instances where NATO came in and did carnage’s to countries that did hold illegal land. Yes US fully support us and don’t tell me that we as a few people control the entire US, that’s just baloney, we are too small to control such a mega power. Also what you call West Bank, prior was never under an ownership of any country. We did not take it from another rulers. The only country historically existed on the West Bank was ancient Israel. Otherwise there was no historically any country existing there. 
 

Also we all seems to go around the same bush here, people keep asking the same questions and we keep giving the same answers. I think we came to a point that we better off just copy and paste, you keep copy and paste your statements and I will do the same.

You want to speak rational, this is rationality I am giving you. We will not create Palestine within Israel, that you can forget, I am telling you facts based. I don’t know if you don’t believe me or you refuse to believe me, but this is a fact. This land cannnot be broken into two states, it’s two small, it’s not feasible, it’s not continuous. Why can’t you come up with different solutions. Why are you beating only on that solution. Again we only have one Jewish state, we cannot afford to loose it. If we had 21 states, you know, probably we could have gambled with it, whatever, if we would loose one when things go bad, we would have 20 to go. Here, if we loose it, where would we go. Into the sea? 
 

If you truly want to be creative, create other solution, but as I state to you humbly, we will not accept the stuff that I mention. I am not sure if you don’t believe me, or you refuse to believe me, I am telling you sincerely and honestly, No. I don’t know what other ways I can say No. and I do want to apologize for my citizens who would be giving false hope, and they really should not be doing such as deep down they don’t believe themselves. I don’t like when politicians know they will not do it, but they play games and playing victim card that they would do different if they could but the circumstance does not allow them otherwise. No, I am telling you you hear honestly. Again if you are a peace seeker come up with a different solution and then we can speak.

Edited June 12 by Gennadiy1981

[Vrubel]

58 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

We were lucky haha

Yes, Israel's founding fathers and the whole founding generation pulled off an absolute miracle very few people would have been capable of. They were exceptionally energetic people. Almost as if the survival of their race depended on it. 

I currently listen to a podcast on Jewish history in ancient and medieval times. It's interesting to notice that really the more things change the more they stay the same. The Jewish people in basic character, traits and the attention they attracted were always basically the same. What also remained constant was the tension between orthodoxy and the more open cosmopolitism and of course the tension of Jews and the outside, often hostile but within more enlightened spheres also positive to the benefit of all. As hellish life was for Jews in medieval Europe even that history isn't completely black and white and has many nuances. For example, in those times pagans were just killed off or forcefully converted without hesitation while Jews, beleaguered as they were, had a specific role in society and were protected by the king, of course until they weren't and had to move on, to put it extremely mildly.

Edited June 12 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

@Vrubel Specifically when I wrote that we were lucky I thought about the name and identification as "Israel" 😄 

[Vrubel]

14 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Vrubel Specifically when I wrote that we were lucky I thought about the name and identification as "Israel" 😄 

I kinda like the name Judea too. Judea would have been more logical as it is the name on which the word jew is based on. Also, the somewhat autonomous Roman province of Judea was the last time a Jewish political entity on that land existed before being renamed to Syria-Palestina by the Romans to spite the Jews. Naming the country Judea again would have been very historically poetic and symbolically fitting. 

Edited June 12 by Vrubel

[Gennadiy1981]

@Vrubel You bring a good point but the name Israel was desired more for number of reasons. Well in the prophecy by the end of times it mentions Israel in Armageddon and all other prophetic writings. Now taking away religious writings to the side, Israel was a country for all, twelve tribes. Remember there was a division of the tribes and Judas along with some Levites (and Benjamin’s, will not go into detailed story here) seceded to a state called Judah where Jews come from, but remember Israel was more inclusive not only for Jews but for 12 tribes total. Of course after Assyrian siege the 10 tribes were exiled and were technically lost. But at the end of times they will be brought back so hence they are not Jews but broader Israelis.

Below is for @Vrubel and @Nivsch only, everyone else, please do not read further.

So according to prophecy the 10 lost tribes will be found, where they are, no one knows, but there are quite theories out there. Not going into details but I read for example in Afghanistan there is a tribe of Pooshtoons who hypothetically practice an Islam of very close to ancient Israel where they keep the laws of Kosher and are Sabbath observant, they account of about 10 million people. Now I have no proof one way or another, but there are interesting findings on them and few even claim that they are descendants of ancient Israelis. Then you have some claim that some tribes of Native Americans are as well and then you have sine in Africa (not Ethiopians cause those are Jews who claim to be) and so on. So then someone made statistics (again no historical proof but just a cute number playing) that there are about 65 million of Israelis. And no wonder prophetically Israel will expand its borders for a greater Israel form Nile to Euphrates see link for the map below.

https://www.c4israel.org.nz/news_featured/greater-israel-from-the-nile-to-the-euphrates/

 

Again this message was not for everyone and I will not be replying to comments pantsed to me. 
P.S. I am not an extremist and I do not advocate for a Greater Israel. 

 

Edited June 12 by Gennadiy1981

[Karmadhi]

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/06/1150946

"In several locations, ISF applied the so-called ‘Hannibal Directive’ and killed at least 14 Israeli civilians. That Directive is reportedly a procedure to prevent capture of ISF members by enemy forces and was alleged to have been directed against Israeli civilians on 7 October".

@Vrubel @Nivsch @Gennadiy1981 `So much for Israel being pro life and caring about its people  

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

I read for example in Afghanistan there is a tribe of Pooshtoons who hypothetically practice an Islam of very close to ancient Israel

You mean Pashtuns, the Taliban folk? Are they our lost brothers? haha maybe it's better if we exclude them from Israel for the time being 

Aren't the Ethiopians and those Indian people part of the lost tribes? And what's the difference between a "mainstream Jew" or one belonging to a lost tribe? Maybe they're integrated together and the distinction is now impossible to make. Or assimilated with other non-Jewish peoples so deeply that it's futile to seek for them.

I know that some modern Assyrians have very Jewish-sounding names and their language is very similar to Hebrew. Maybe some lost tribe there.

 

35 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

`So much for Israel being pro life and caring about its people  

Dude, you're not going to win that argument, just look how they develop their bomb shelters, cutting-edge missile defense and Merkava tanks that are the best in the world on the metric of crew survivability. Being a small nation and Holocaust trauma also plays a role here. I think it's better if you stick to how pitiful the Palestinians are and how it's none of their responsibility and all on Israel.

 

Edited June 12 by Vrubel

[hundreth]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

What that shameless is this kind of canceling attitude towards people feelings and sense of belonging and reducing it down to some DNA test. Jews lived here for centuries as a majority and after that for centuries as a minority.

Not to mention that it's not true.

DNA testing is not banned in Israel. The Genetic Information Law, passed in 2000 amid privacy concerns, conditions domestic testing on a doctor's prescription or court order, & that testing be done by accredited labs. Commercial ancestry tests can be purchased from abroad. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3960049/#:~:text=Genetic information law – 2000&text=The law deals with all,give genetic counseling in Israel https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Disability/SR_Disability/BioethicsDisabilities/Israel.doc

@Karmadhiwhen Jews have their DNA tested, there is a direct link to Israel present. I have had mine tested, and it is clearly displayed. So I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

Edited June 12 by hundreth

[Merkabah Star]

“Israel has no interest in international law, and the United States has no interest in demanding that Israel actually comply with international law besides rhetorical flourishes," says Sarah Leah Whitson, executive director of DAWN. "It will come to haunt and hurt America for decades to come."

 

[Raze]

On 6/10/2024 at 3:11 PM, Gennadiy1981 said:

What you call settlements in West Bank illegal, first of all they are not illegal as besides us there was no rightful owner to them, there was never Palestinian ownership to them.

Quote

The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal on one of two bases: that they are in violation of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, or that they are in breach of international declarations. The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the Israeli-occupied territories.

Numerous UN resolutions and prevailing international opinion hold that Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979, 1980, and 2016. UN Security Council Resolution 446 refers to the Fourth Geneva Convention as the applicable international legal instrument, and calls upon Israel to desist from transferring its own population into the territories or changing their demographic makeup. 126 Representatives at the reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions in 2014 declared the settlements illegal as has the primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice and the International Committee of the Red Cross. United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334 of 2016, which passed 14-0 with the United States abstaining, declared that Israel's settlement activity in the occupied Palestinian territories, including East Jerusalem, "has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law", and demanded that Israel "immediately and completely cease all settlement activities".

 

Edited June 12 by Raze

[Raze]

6 hours ago, Vrubel said:

If that video title is referring to Hamas then yes. Otherwise, it’s such an obvious shilling to Hamas psychological manipulations.

Not true, Israeli Colonel Doron Hadar was the commander of Israel's military negotiation unit with 27 years of experience, says himself Israel had many chances to get the hundreds of hostages back safely and quickly, but instead engaged in a military campaign that killed thousands of civilians, multiple hostages, all to save just 7.

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hyw3njjr0

Edited June 12 by Raze

[Gennadiy1981]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

You mean Pashtuns, the Taliban folk? Are they our lost brothers? haha maybe it's better if we exclude them from Israel for the time being 

Aren't the Ethiopians and those Indian people part of the lost tribes? And what's the difference between a "mainstream Jew" or one belonging to a lost tribe? Maybe they're integrated together and the distinction is now impossible to make. Or assimilated with other non-Jewish peoples so deeply that it's futile to seek for them.

I know that some modern Assyrians have very Jewish-sounding names and their language is very similar to Hebrew. Maybe some lost tribe there.

Sorry for my misspelling yes Pashtuns. Some claim that they are ancient Israelites who were forcibly converted to Islam. 
So the ancient Israelites had 12 tribes one for each son of Jacob. They were pretty much all holding separate and rarely mix. Each tribe received its own land dedication, so they were Simeonites, Reuveonites and etc. Judah was a tribe that got Jerusalem area and hence they are what we call Jews today but Jews were one of the tribes of Israelites. Now today whom we call Jews are all from tribe of Judah even Ethiopian Jews, as well as Iraqi Jews, Bukharian Jews and Gorsky and so on, those are all Jews. The others are technically lost and are not practicing Judaism at the current moment. But yes some claim in Syria (currently practicing Islam) some in India, I heard some in Eastern Europe, some Native American Indians claim, some in Africa, and some even in Iran (excluding Iranian Jews) but none practice Judaism currently, though they have a very close practices to Judaism. Again today it’s theory only.

So the mainstream Jew is the one who calls or consider themselves Jewish (even self hating Jews who claim don’t want anything to do with Judaism and those who converted to other religions) they are what you would call mainstream of Jews descended from Judah. 

According to the prophecy they will only be revealed at the end of times and not before. Again just quoting what says and not putting my opinion here. In my opinion if they would all reveal now, man, our current state would be too small and then we would need to expand. Oh boy imagine all the comments below.