Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

They moved there because it's the only safe place in the world for Jews.

I think it is more accurate to say that they moved there because their Bible says it is their place, and they follow that regardless of any consequence to themselves or others. That's the crux of the issue.

They don't care if it's dangerous because they believe it is their identity.

Edited June 9 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Oke, I am sure you'll gaslight and shut me down by saying I am biased (like I am the only one) but I am definitely not seeing any of this. 

It's clear to me who is the loudest and who is winning the propaganda war, defenders of Israel's truth are relatively rare, not the least for the obvious reason Israelis and even Jews are a relatively small nation. Israelis could match Aljazeera's propaganda by constantly releasing 7/10 footage but they are keeping most of it private and shelved out of respect for the victims and to not repeatedly retraumatize themselves. 

Well, all I can tell you is that you obviously have attachments on this whole issue. That's the elephant in the room which you are always trying to dance your way around.

Until you confront that on your own we can't really have a meaningful conversation.

I understand this sounds unfair to you, but what else can I say?

Edited June 9 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because there are political limits to what the right-wing can get away with.

They are opportunists. Similar to the American Christians fanatics. They exploit any opportunity that rises. If a terrorism attacl arises, they use it to push their agenda while the public is emotionally dazed.

I tend to agree with that especially in this current most extreme ever government, though I think our right wing is also dynamic and radicalizes in response to the other side's attacks and strategic.

Edited June 9 by Nivsch

[numbersinarow]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I think it is more accurate to say that they moved there because their Bible says it is their place, and they follow that regardless of any consequence to themselves or others. That's the crux of the issue.

They don't care if it's dangerous because they believe it is their identity.

The crux of the issue is that everyone uses force and is self-biased but people focus on Israel because the mainstream has re-programmed you.

If your focus is practicality, then it's justifiable to focus on israel, obviously, because the settler colonialism is currently happening. But if your focus is on morality then the united states was way worse to the natives, lied to them a million times then killed them etc. and those natives didn't believe in a fairy tale which told them they will go to heaven if they cull non-believers.

It's Hamas telling you (through their actions) that the UN and western mainstream has extreme double standards and they are willing to exploit this to the fullest, very likely considering it their best weapon.

Edited June 9 by numbersinarow

[Vrubel]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, all I can tell you is that you obviously have attachments on this whole issue. That's the elephant in the room which you are always trying to dance your way around.

Until you confront that we can't really have a meaningful conversation.

I never denied that. I am straightforward as can be. 

I know that in an existential sense, nothing really matters when I die but as long as I live I'll have this deep attachment to Israel, who I consider my people and obviously, this makes me sensitive to the physical threats and unfair (media) treatment they face. 

 

[zazen]

This US backed raid which Israel isn't capable of alone - killed 3 hostages including a US citizen. This isn't just Middle East policy gone wrong. The US bankrolls, arms and shields Israel from every UN resolution and ICC investigation because a colonial outpost is the perfect watchdog instigator for their oil-soaked golf course in the Middle East. Nothing keeps the war machine going like a forever conflict and a never-ending list of enemies to create and bomb.

What we are seeing is the unholy union between America's cult of Darwinian capitalism and Israel's delusion of divine birthright. Divine selection weds Darwinian selection and their offspring is the monster the world see's devouring Gaza. Gaza isn't just a war (if you can call it that) but a warning. It's the endgame of an ideology that says some people - whether chosen by markets or mythical sky-daddies - have the right to grind others into dust.

Gaza, Ukraine, Yemen, the drowned refugees in the Med - all just collateral damage in a quest for a world where only the fittest survive - fit by meritocracy/corporatocracy or fit because God says so.

A ethos of Divine selection from God (Israel) combined and backed by a ethics of Darwinian selection (US) creates this symbiosis of savagery thats needs tending to.The people using the power of the internet and social media shred their propaganda. Every child's scream echoes louder than their myths. The people say no to ethnic cleansing and land grabbing justified by wall street balance sheets and biblical verses.

Edited June 9 by zazen

[Samsonov]

@Nivsch Hey, please notice that you are talking in past tense, and I think what most people here are rightfully concerned about is what is happening right now, even trying to understand it using Netenyahu's actions or presumed strategies is not that relevant, I don't believe that he could stop the war if he wanted to at this point, the government is loosing it's power over the IDF, it is out of control...!

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

The crux of the issue is that everyone uses force and is self-biased but people focus on Israel because the mainstream has re-programmed you.

The mainstream is pro-Israel and bought out by Israel and infilitrated by Israeli intelligence.

Quote

But if your focus is on morality then the united states was way worse to the natives, lied to them a million times then killed them etc.

Yes, however time and era is a big factor. Israel's problem is that it is attempting to do things which are 100 years out of fashion.

Quote

It's Hamas telling you (through their actions) that the UN and western mainstream has extreme double standards and they are willing to exploit this to the fullest, very likely considering it their best weapon.

Hamas has no power over US media or politicians. The double-standard in America is squarely in favor of Israel. This is part of the problem. Israel has corrupted America away from serving its proper role as unbiased mediator. Israel doesn't want the US to act honestly and objectively towards this whole situation. Israel wants double-standards however it can get them. Which is fundamentally why I cannot support them.

Edited June 9 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas has no power over US media or politicians. The double-standard in America is squarely in favor of Israel.

I feel if you'll visit Israel with an open mind you'll understand why. It's not all as nefarious as you make it out to be, even the opposite. 

 

5 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

@Nivsch Hey, please notice that you are talking in past tense, and I think what most people here are rightfully concerned about is what is happening right now, even trying to understand it using Netenyahu's actions or presumed strategies is not that relevant, I don't believe that he could stop the war if he wanted to at this point, the government is loosing it's power over the IDF, it is out of control...!

I don't completely understand you here. 

Like for me Ben Gvir was a nutcase before 7/10 and a nutcase after 7/10 but I am not painting Netanyahu all black even though I disagree with him a lot. As a history buff who likes to study war, I can definitely see the more overarching national defense logic Netanyahu is employing. 

 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

I never denied that. I am straightforward as can be. 

I know that in an existential sense, nothing really matters when I die but as long as I live I'll have this deep attachment to Israel, who I consider my people and obviously, this makes me sensitive to the physical threats and unfair (media) treatment they face. 

You have chosen your loyalty to the human and I have chosen mine to something else.

Edited June 9 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

moved there because their Bible says it is their place, and they follow that regardless of any consequence to themselves or others. That's the crux of the issue.

I see this as a deeper issue than the Bible because Jews were dominant here for many centuries until their most significant deportation in the 6th century.

The right wing policy although isn't justified, is a karma result of a long term memory from what happened centuries ago, and actually not so far ago but from the 6th century and above.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule

Edited June 9 by Nivsch

[Samsonov]

@Vrubel I didn't try to paint Netanyahu anything, I do see him as having a role in starting all of this, but it is out of his hands at this point.
The picture of him as a chess master breaking his head over the matter is misguided, a more accurate picture would be him hiding in his guarded house and having everything that he puts in his mouth tested for poison. He let the dogs out, the IDF, backed by anger and aggression of a population that was growing in size over the years. newly recruited soldiers are sent to fight after completing a hasted training period, as if we are facing an all out war on all fronts like in the past, this is different now, where is the fire?

[Samsonov]

@Nivsch You are right

Perhaps it's a time for another period of exile

Edited June 9 by Samsonov

[Vrubel]

10 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

@Vrubel I didn't try to paint Netanyahu anything, I do see him as having a role in starting all of this, but it is out of his hands at this point.
The picture of him as a chess master breaking his head over the matter is misguided, a more accurate picture would be him hiding in his guarded house and having everything that he puts in his mouth tested for poison. He let the dogs out, the IDF, backed by anger and aggression of a population that was growing in size over the years. newly recruited soldiers are sent to fight after completing a hasted training period, as if we are facing an all out war on all fronts like in the past, this is different now, where is the fire?

When I was in Israel I spoke with both younger liberal types for whom the hostages are above all and the more older conservative types who view the removal of Hamas as primary. 
I understand both. Personally I am more in favor to the first group but I just can't help understanding the more harsh second perspective as well. 

 

24 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I see this as a deeper issue than the Bible because Jews were dominant here for many centuries until their most significant deportation in the 6th century.

The right wing policy although isn't justified, is a karma result of a long term memory from what happened centuries ago, and actually not so far ago but from the 6th century and above.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule

 The last 76 years of Israel's existence is by far the best time to be born a Jew on this earth ever in history. In the scope of human history, Zionism delivered justice to the Jewish people.

[Vrubel]

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You have chosen your loyalty to the human and I have chosen mine to the nonhuman.

My first loyalty is to Virginia, there was never a question of doubt about that. 

 

Edited June 9 by Vrubel

[Samsonov]

@Vrubel Hammas is not limited to a group of people, even if it was possible to murder all of them, the idea would live on, gaza is a "hammas producing environment" wether by a different name, something else will come again, coming back to my cancer analogy, hammas is a symptom not a disease. Even worse, the distinction between a hammas member, terrorist, palestinian and in the worse case muslim, is not that solid.

Soldiers are coming back home believing they have killed terrorist s,"mehabelim", but who knows the individual history of every victim. Presumably the mosad does his share of intelligence work before, I don't believe that is so in this conflict.

[Samsonov]

10 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

 The last 76 years of Israel's existence is by far the best time to be born a Jew on this earth ever in history. In the scope of human history, Zionism delivered justice to the Jewish people.

Yes you are right, but the pendulum swings again, there have been many peaceful and prosperous periods in biblical times as well, followed by havoc

[Samsonov]

@Leo Gura

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You have chosen your loyalty to the human and I have chosen mine to the nonhuman.

I love that <3

[Nivsch]

Former head of IDF (2002-2005) and minister of defense (2013-2016).

[Vrubel]

5 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

@Vrubel Hammas is not limited to a group of people, even if it was possible to murder all of them, the idea would live on, gaza is a "hammas producing environment" wether by a different name, something else will come again, coming back to my cancer analogy, hammas is a symptom not a disease. Even worse, the distinction between a hammas member, terrorist, palestinian and in the worse case muslim, is not that solid.

Soldiers are coming back home believing they have killed terrorist s,"mehabelim", but who knows the individual history of every victim. Presumably the mosad does his share of intelligence work before, I don't believe that is so in this conflict.

 

2 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

Yes you are right, but the pendulum swings again, there have been many peaceful and prosperous periods in biblical times as well, followed by havoc

Oke, I understand you. But don't be so neuroticly alarmist. As awful as the situation currently is, the flip side of the coin is that Israel is still doing fine. The economy is largely running fine, people continue with their lives and people are even still immigrating to the country. The news will rarely cover the positive things. I read recently that Saudi Arabia removed their anti-semitism and "anti-zionism" from their children's textbook which can be seen as a sign or symbolic move towards larger peace and integration into the region. Netanyahu will one day be gone.