Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Nivsch]

Edited June 8 by Nivsch

[Inliytened1]

10 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

 

The reason Jews get most of their hate nowadays is because of Israel which is seen as many people including myself as colonialism and fundamentally flawed in its design. Therefore, people that support this idea of an ethno Jewish state are called Zionists.

 

I understand that...yes I was generalizing that zionists were always going to be Jewish.  And it's not always the case..but hate is never a good thing for anyone.  Don't you agree?  You're pretty much admitting that you hate on Israel because you think the state design is fundamentally flawed?  And you think you are OK to do that because the hate is mainly directed toward the Zionist movement and thus OK, because that's an ideology so it could be jews or non-jews?  Seems like a sneaky indirect way to subtly hate on Jews under the guise of being against Israel and the way the state was "designed" not the Jewish people....... .

Edited June 8 by Inliytened1

[hundreth]

10 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Jew is someone born in a specific group which relates to Judaism. It is inherent.

Zionist is a political movement, an ideology that anyone can support which states that Jews should have an ethno centric country which should be in their holy land etc.

The reason Jews get most of their hate nowadays is because of Israel which is seen as many people including myself as colonialism and fundamentally flawed in its design. Therefore, people that support this idea of an ethno Jewish state are called Zionists.

No issue with Jews having a state per say, but it should be done with consensus from everyone and not at expense of others. Also people living there should have equal rights.

Israel is done without consensus, at expense of the Palestinians which lived there for millenia and non Jews do not have the same rights.

Hence the hate.

A Jew does not need to be a Zionist per say.

A non Jew can also be a Zionist.

Zionist is a political ideology like fascism, communism etc.

Judaism is a religion and is inherent.

Zionism is not.

At least that is how I see it.

Hard core Zionist would be someone that is against a two state solution and say "The Entire Palestinian Mandate of 1947 should be Israel because it is our holy land etc". So using religious nonsense to justify land grab and ethnic cleansing of indeginous people. 

The distinction between Jew and Zionist doesn't matter as much as you think it does. 80%+ of Jews are pro Israel. The land of Israel is central to Judaism and all the stories in the Torah. 

https://rudermanfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/2020.01.30-ENGLISH-US-Jewry-Survey.pdf

Consensus from everyone? When has that ever been the case in all of history? Jews accepted the U.N. partition plan, the Arabs did not and declared war. There was no negotiations.

And who are you to say what should or shouldn't be in a self determined Jewish state? You explain away all the hate towards Jews by blaming Israel, but when Muslims are criticized for their many Muslim nations having way worse discrimination and human rights issues we call that Islamophobia.

No other peoples or nations on the planet are held to the same double standard as Israel. 

Jews just want their self determination in the land of Israel, and ideally not at the expense of anyone. Mostly they just want to be left alone. And it's fine to criticize the actions of Israel and what this current administration is doing, but there's nothing fundamentally flawed about Israel. It's here and it exists. It isn't going anywhere.

I don't see you complaining about the 30 or so officially Muslim nations, and that's not surprising.

[Raze]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

The distinction between Jew and Zionist doesn't matter as much as you think it does. 80%+ of Jews are pro Israel. The land of Israel is central to Judaism and all the stories in the Torah. 

https://rudermanfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/2020.01.30-ENGLISH-US-Jewry-Survey.pdf

 

That doesn’t dissolve the distinction, Zionism is still a specific political ideology. That was true about the Torah for thousands of years before Zionism.

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

 

Consensus from everyone? When has that ever been the case in all of history? Jews accepted the U.N. partition plan, the Arabs did not and declared war. There was no negotiations.

 

Well yes, how was it fair for the Jews to expel thousands of Palestinians from their homeland to declare a Jewish state on land other people lived on without their consent?

If someone kicked you out of your home because they said their religious text claims their ancestors owned this land thousands of years ago would you be ok with it?

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

 

And who are you to say what should or shouldn't be in a self determined Jewish state? You explain away all the hate towards Jews by blaming Israel, but when Muslims are criticized for their many Muslim nations having way worse discrimination and human rights issues we call that Islamophobia.

 

But there is a clear pattern between Israel’s actions and a growth in antisemitism. As unfair as it is, this is the natural result in Israel claiming to represent the Judaism and Jews, but going on to commit occupation and war crimes in their name.

If you’re criticizing Muslims personally because a majority Muslim country commits human rights abuses just on the basis they are they identify as the same religion, that would be islamophobia the same way it’s antisemitism to criticize Jews for Israel just because they are Jewish. But criticizing the states actions itself of the Muslim or Jewish person for backing it, wouldn’t be.

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

 

No other peoples or nations on the planet are held to the same double standard as Israel. 

 

It’s the opposite, no other country is escaping accountability and justice more than Israel. At least other countries behaving like this are sanctioned or considered Pariahs. Israel on the other hand gets endless funding and forced adulation from the US. In the end it only hurts them because it empowered the worst aspects of their society to continue bad behavior, this is the result. If the US followed its own laws on funding countries committing illegal acts, they wouldn’t be funding Israel even prior to this war because of the settlements.

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

Jews just want their self determination in the land of Israel, and ideally not at the expense of anyone. Mostly they just want to be left alone. And it's fine to criticize the actions of Israel and what this current administration is doing, but there's nothing fundamentally flawed about Israel. It's here and it exists. It isn't going anywhere.

Maybe the average Jew does, but not the government of Israel. They want to control greater Israel and ethnically cleanse the Palestinians living in it.

There are many valid arguments you can make about the fundamental flaw of ethnostates including Israel. You could argue much of the violence and racism Israel perpetrates is a manifestation of this. If it’s not true and an ethnostate can behave morally, Israel isn’t helping that argument with their behavior.

Many famous historians and economists both defenders and critics of Israel are warning Israel is on the path to self destruction. Israel very possibly may be going away and potentially bringing us all down with it if they don’t change their ways. You aren’t helping them by trying to deflect every criticism to other countries. Maybe if the West treated Israel like it treats Syria you’d have a point, but we are enabling this.

 

Edited June 8 by Raze

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

You're pretty much admitting that you hate on Israel because you think the state design is fundamentally flawed?  And you think you are OK to do that because the hate is mainly directed toward the Zionist movement and thus OK, because that's an ideology so it could be jews or non-jews?  Seems like a sneaky indirect way to subtly hate on Jews under the guise of being against Israel and the way the state was "designed" not the Jewish people....... .

I dont like ethnostates and colonialism. That is all. Since Jews are doing it then I will hate on them. Its not inherent hate on them, its hate on their actions.

2 hours ago, hundreth said:

Consensus from everyone? When has that ever been the case in all of history? Jews accepted the U.N. partition plan, the Arabs did not and declared war. There was no negotiations.

Dude cant you see that dumping million of Europeans in an Arab land is wrong? We live in 2024, people are sensitive to colonialism. 

2 hours ago, hundreth said:

And who are you to say what should or shouldn't be in a self determined Jewish state?

I do not have issue with Jews having a state but it is a dick move to make it by kicking out natives of a land. Especially when those natives treated Jews very well. You see, historically Arabs were much nicer to Jews than European Christians. Jews in Europe were unwanted, put in ghettos and finally killed by Europeans during WW2. It would be fitting for Europe to give them a state as compensation. Issue is that they did not do it in their land, but instead picked a land which they controlled where people lived that had nothing to do with oppression of Jews through the centuries. I call it flawed because basically Palestinian Arabs had to pay the price of European devilry. If Israel was made in Germany, I would have no issue with it. It would be very fitting. But Palestinians were much kinder to Jews than Europeans and they did not deserve it. Imagine if an innocent person was treated like shit by a group of people and that had nothing to do with you. Then that group of people felt bad and to make the innocent bullied person feel better, went to your house and told you "this guy been through bad shit, give him half your house". You would be like "wtf dude".

There were indeed Jews living in Palestine but they were a minority. Probably many more Jews lived in Europe even after the Holocaust than in Palestine.

2 hours ago, hundreth said:

Mostly they just want to be left alone

This is why they keep expanding illegal settlements in the West Bank. Does not seem like "wanting to be left alone" to me.

 

 

Edited June 8 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Vrubel said:

IDF rescued 4 hostages in two different operations! including Noa Argamani. 

@Nivsch

Apparently they had to kill 200 civilians to get to them.

It is good those 4 people are safe now but is it worth the price?

Seems like too much to me.

Not worth it.

Those 210 are not less innocent than those 4 hostages.

I understand Israeli citizens have priority over other nations but where do you draw the line?

It is much better solution instead to just make a deal with Hamas and those hostages are released without force.

Like the 100 last year were.

Israel obsession to destroy Hamas even though that is impossible is the issue here.

US urged them to do a good deal with them but they refused it.

ISIS or Al Qaeda were never destroyed, they were just weakned to the point where they stopped being a threat.

Hamas right now is not capable to be a threat. Biden said the same recently. 

Even if you kill their top leaders in Gaza, someone else will replace them.

Seems more like stupid revenge to me than anything else.

Edited June 8 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Honestly you can't compare the horror of hostage to anything else in this war which is in another league.

But there is a place to argue about the price in human lives infront of the result. However a cold number comparison is not the proper way here.

Add to the equation that part of the civilians allowed hamas to hide hostages in their homes and part of them are innocent.

So yes there isn't a clear cut answer here, and anyway I think a hostage deal is needed.

Edited June 8 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

16 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi Honestly you can't compare the horror of hostage to anything else in this war which is in another league.

 

Based on what proof? All hostages I have seen do not have any missing limbs, any bruises or hardcore physical abuse scars. You know Hamas could easily torture them daily and they choose not to? I saw that 8 year old Emily irish girl, she said Hamas did not touch her. Being a hostage is indeed a horrible experience, no doubt. But Hamas could easily have physically tortured them if they wanted. The hospitals in Gaza are full of burnt, blown away, injured people while the hostages bodies are fully intact. They do not even seem to have lost a lot of weight. Look at Ukranian hostages which Russia releases and compare. They look like Holocaust survivors.

16 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Add to the equation that part of the civilians allowed hamas to hide hostages in their homes and part of them are innocent.

 

You can make the case for the men. But women and especially kids do not have a say in that. Even if you take kids only, you have probably 80 kids which are truly innocent. So it seems still horrible ratio to me.

16 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

So yes there isn't a clear cut answer here, and anyway I think a hostage deal is needed.

Exactly. If Hamas was not open to any deal than I would understand but Israel prefers to mass murder civilians over a deal which would have them compromise a bit. Pure selfishness.

That is the issue I have with Israel whole approach. They are so selfish and ruthless that even when something good happens, it is done at a price so high that it is hard for you to see it as a good thing anymore.

Like 4 innocent hostages being released should make people happy. It is a good thing.

Then you see 200 civilians were killed for that to happen and you start asking yourself if it would be better that it had not even happened. If you see all life equal then you would prefer 200 people to live over 4 people. And it then becomes sad news over happy news. It is messed up.

The hostage exchange in November was great. Nobody got killed and both sides had happines come to them. That made me smile.

 

Edited June 8 by Karmadhi

[lina]

https://x.com/Hind_Gaza/status/1799443309556834641

 Supremacism in a nutshell. 

 

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Nothing is compared to being alone with zero control on your life, utterly deffenseless and with no freedom of motion.

A family in Gaza are in a far better initial position and the tents area is 99.9% safe.

Edited June 8 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

@Nivsch

Apparently they had to kill 200 civilians to get to them.

It is good those 4 people are safe now but is it worth the price?

Seems like too much to me.

Not worth it.

Those 210 are not less innocent than those 4 hostages.

I understand Israeli citizens have priority over other nations but where do you draw the line?

It is much better solution instead to just make a deal with Hamas and those hostages are released without force.

Like the 100 last year were.

Israel obsession to destroy Hamas even though that is impossible is the issue here.

US urged them to do a good deal with them but they refused it.

ISIS or Al Qaeda were never destroyed, they were just weakned to the point where they stopped being a threat.

Hamas right now is not capable to be a threat. Biden said the same recently. 

Even if you kill their top leaders in Gaza, someone else will replace them.

Seems more like stupid revenge to me than anything else.

No one in Gaza would have died if the hostages weren’t taken in the first place. You don’t fuck with Israelis. They will do anything for their own. Every government has a responsibility to its citizens. Hamas (purposefully) kept those hostages in an exceptionally densely populated area, so it’s on them for putting their civilians at risk. Like, it's obvious that these people die because of Hamas, yet I have to explain, go figure the absurdity.  

All this is perfectly within integrity. Israel will do anything for life. Hamas will do anything for death. Don’t be a shill for that.

Edited June 8 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

11 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

No one in Gaza would have died if the hostages weren’t taken in the first place

And Hamas would not have grown if the Israeli government didnt fund them and treat Gazans so badly. Israel is equally responsible here. Goes both ways. Yet you are too blinded by hate and bias to see that. Hamas is a direct result of Israeli policy. It is very obvious when you do not have any skin in the game.

11 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

You don’t fuck with Israelis

Dude, people that were killed mostly did not fuck with Israelis. They minded their own business...

They were living their lives and woke up one day and saw the terrorist attack happened in Israel and then immediately had to start moving not to be bombed. 

I can easily flip the script and say "You dont fuck with Gazans" after October 7th attack. How would you feel about that? But I am not doing it.

11 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Every government has a responsibility to its citizens

That is true but Israel had a peace deal proposed by the US. They rejected it. People protested even in Israel about it. They have options but they chose this. So it is not an excuse. They could have chosen peace and negotiation but they chose violence and death.

 

11 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Hamas (purposefully) kept those hostages in an exceptionally densely populated area, so it’s on them for putting their civilians at risk.

They are also responsible but Israel is the one actually killing people after rejecting peace deals from their allies. 

11 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Israel will do anything for life. Hamas will do anything for death

If Israel would do anything for life then accept Biden peace deal. They want the hostages and want to have it their way. The result is 200 innocent civilians dead. So Israel is at fault here. If Hamas said "no peace no matter what" then I would understand. 

Edited June 8 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

28 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Nothing is compared to being alone with zero control on your life, utterly deffenseless and with no freedom of motion.

Dude that is how all Palestinians feel now in Gaza. They do not have control over being bombed. I would say hostages might be safer because they are in underground tunnels which are immune to bombing. And they are not starved nor beaten or tortured. Nobody is saying it is not a bad experience but you need to look at all the factors here. 

And ok, lets say being a hostage is the worst position, I am open to that statement.  The number of hostages is still too small compared to all that have died in general.

You are having selective empathy here.

I understand when you have skin in the game but when you look at it from an outside POV it seems ridiculous. 

"Lets kill 35.000 because of 200 people".

"We saved 4 by killing 200", what a victory and happy moment for us".

As an outsider makes you very creeped out by the bias and selective empathy.

At the very least can you say something like "We rescued today 4 of our hostages. A very high price was paid by this from Palestinians, we are very sorry for that. However, we have a duty to our people and we will keep moving forward until we have fulfilled that duty". War is hell".

This is still biased but at least a statement that I can somewhat respect.

Now compare this with the Israeli official statements. Night and day difference.

Edited June 8 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

45 minutes ago, lina said:

 Supremacism in a nutshell. 

 

And they even seem to justify it.

Shameless...

[lina]

 

26 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

 Every government has a responsibility to its citizens.

Ummm but it's Israel that is preventing Palestinians from having their own state and own recognized army so they can protect their citizens..did you forget this I wonder 🤔 

That's like breaking someone's leg then blaming them for attempting to walk if they trip. 

Edited June 8 by lina

[Vrubel]

20 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I can easily flip the script and say "You dont fuck with Gazans" after October 7th attack. How would you feel about that? But I am not doing it.

They fucked over Gazans most of all, thought their attack definitely did a lot of pain so they can consider that a victory in their savagely twisted mind.

Let's say you have a burning hatred of Israelis and really don't care about them but have massive heart and endless compassion towards the Palestinians. Still, I would be so fucking mad at Hamas for fucking my beloved Palestinians over so hard and so unrelenting. Yet instead of this you just created this cult of blaming Israel for everything it does and doesn't do. You essentially hold the Palestinian people to the moral standard of human animals and Israel to an exceptional standard that the world has not yet known.
I actually hold the Palestinian nation to a higher standard than this. I have this desperate desire of wanting to respect the Palestinian people because they are the ones whose fate got interwoven with the Jewish people, which actually could be a positive thing and ultimately should be. But we are still very far from that. 

Edited June 8 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Let's say you have a burning hatred of Israelis and really don't care about them but have massive heart and endless compassion towards the Palestinians. Still, I would be so fucking mad at Hamas for fucking my beloved Palestinians over so hard and so unrelenting. Yet instead of this you just created this cult of blaming Israel for everything it does and doesn't do. You essentially hold the Palestinian people to the moral standard of human animals and Israel to an exceptional standard that the world has not yet known.
I actually hold the Palestinian nation to a higher standard than this. I have this desperate desire of wanting to respect the Palestinian people because they are the ones whose fate got interwoven with the Jewish people, which actually could be a positive thing and ultimately should be. But we are still very far from that. 

+1 ❤️

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

No one in Gaza would have died if the hostages weren’t taken in the first place. 

Actually, 2023 was already the deadliest year for Palestinian children prior to Oct 7. 
 

No matter how much you insist on it, you can’t escape the fact Oct 7 didn’t happen in a vacuum.

and No, Israelis do not do anything for “life”, they had a Hannibal directive policy specifically to assassinate their own soldiers to avoid capture. And despite being offered all the hostages back at the start of the war, refused and engaged in the invasion of Gaza which has so far killed more hostages then they’ve saved from military action.

30 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

I actually hold the Palestinian nation to a higher standard than this. I have this desperate desire of wanting to respect the Palestinian people because they are the ones whose fate got interwoven with the Jewish people, which actually could be a positive thing and ultimately should be. But we are still very far from that. 

What standard do you hold Israelis who you claim to care for? You defend their occupation and blockade which resulted in Oct 7 in the first place, you’re no different than hamas supporters enabling them to put Palestinians at risk while claiming to care for them. You enable the Israeli government to put its own citizens at risk by playing the victim and defending their war crimes, which just leads to more attacks towards Israelis.

Edited June 8 by Raze

[Nivsch]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

Oct 7 didn’t happen in a vacuum

The group did Oct 7 aren't interested in 67 but in 48.

[Raze]

11 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The group did Oct 7 aren't interested in 67 but in 48.

In 1999 the founder of Hamas called for a ceasefire with pre 67 borders

In 2006 the Hamas prime minister offered a ceasefire with 67 borders

In 2017 charter removed calls for Israel’s destruction and replaced it with a call for 67 borders

Even if you don’t believe them, what’s more important is that they lack capacity to return to 48 borders or even 67 borders without Israel’s consent.

What Israel has capacity to do, calls for, and is doing, is the continued destruction and occupation of Palestine. Which puts their own citizens at risk.