Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi With all the problems, empirically speaking IDF ratio (combatants : civilians) in this war is better than any other urban war against terror done in the past by any country.

Edited June 7 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Inliytened1

6 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

No you wouldn't.  It could be a lot worse.  They could have dropped the bomb. Lucky for you they're too close.

   What's your beef with @zazen? He's basically saying a war of defense from Israel was this bad, how bad would it be if Israel had an offensive war? That's all.

[Danioover9000]

@Inliytened1

5 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yet you sit back in your arm chair and judge.  Having never fled a damn thing.  Or have been made to fled anything.    Try to rationalize a women scorned.   It's a difficult thing to do unless you've stepped into her shoes.  And I can assure you sir, that you have not.  

   A bit of a stretch to assume @zazen was arm chair judging, and having never fled a 'damn thing' or have been made to 'fled anything'? And even if he lacks that experience, does that mean @zazen's points so far are invalid and unsound in this Israel/Palestine conflict? And why personify Israel as a female??? I think you need to chill a bit if you're getting triggered...

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Inliytened1

   What's your beef with @zazen? He's basically saying a war of defense from Israel was this bad, how bad would it be if Israel had an offensive war? That's all.

He's very one sided.  There's no understanding of both sides.  Hamas wants the land, fine - attack and kill.  But now that Israel retaliated with a vengeance its all their fault for going too far.  Yes - they did.  And some of us have admitted that.   But by God dude, if you want to be intelligent don't show it with fancy vocabulary.  Show it via empathy and understanding for both peoples and stop hating on Israel.  Enough.   How can we resolve this should be the discussion not who is wrong or right. 

Edited June 7 by Inliytened1

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

55 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

You are right. You me or the other guy has not experienced anything horrible like this.

Lets maybe look at what those that have experienced horror says about it.

Like some Holocaust survivors.

BBC News - Holocaust families criticise Israel over Gaza

"More than 300 Holocaust survivors and their descendants have issued a statement condemning what they call Israel's "genocide" in Gaza.

The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network placed the statement as an advertisement in the New York Times"

Hmmm....

Also Russia could do a lot worse in Ukraine. By that logic we are also cool with Putin now?

   It's still a silly argument point there. Like not always is the case you need direct experience, then you make your commentary or argument. In some cases direct experience is impossible, or too inconvenient for a person. For example you can argue and make theories/discussions about volcanoes and lava, you do not necessarily need to be inside a volcano, as trips and travel might be expensive, logistics harder, and even touching lava could cause severe injuries or death. The main problem with this framing is that the other side can insinuate and downplay the other side's more justified and sound argument against it by saying you just lack experiences to say anything=being unsound and invalidates your argument. That's not true.

[Danioover9000]

@Inliytened1

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

He's very one sided.  There's no understanding of both sides.  Hamas wants the land, fine - attack and kill.  But now that Israel retaliated with a vengeance its all their fault for going too far.  Yes - they did.  And some of us have admitted that.   But by God dude, if you want to be intelligent don't show it with fancy vocabulary.  Show it via an empathy for both peoples and stop hating on Israel.

   What can you realistically expect from @zazen? Ever since Al Nakba, the Oslo accords, the springs, Israel's been slowly for 80 years expanding and creating small settlements for Zionists, and have demilitarized and made any statehood for Palestinians extra hard. Palestinians don't even have their own police force, so when HAMAs came and took over after Palestinians held that election, and later they find out how extreme HAMAs is, they themselves don't have military or police to coup the HAMAs. Even peace attempts were getting denied more from Israel and less from Palestine! So sorry, IMO Israel holds the greater burden for having created conditions for HAMAs taking over so easily. If they don't want HAMAs in charge, they should never have defanged Palestine so severely over those 80 years, recognized them as a state, and at least helped them make a police force for Palestine's state.

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

You are right. You me or the other guy has not experienced anything horrible like this.

Lets maybe look at what those that have experienced horror says about it.

Like some Holocaust survivors.

BBC News - Holocaust families criticise Israel over Gaza

"More than 300 Holocaust survivors and their descendants have issued a statement condemning what they call Israel's "genocide" in Gaza.

The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network placed the statement as an advertisement in the New York Times"

Hmmm....

Also Russia could do a lot worse in Ukraine. By that logic we are also cool with Putin now?

You can't compare this to the holocaust.  I just watched the series "we were the lucky ones" which I highly recommend.  It's a really good insight to what they went through.   It's terrifying.   How they tricked Jews into thinking they were going back to Israel only to be stopped along the way to dig their own graves.  Horrifying.   Yes - many will say violence isn't the answer and that Israel overstepped.   I'm in agreement with that.  But also you have to appreciate what Israel has been through to keep their land and people.  It has been a struggle.   So before you cast judgement from your couch maybe see it from both sides.

[Raze]

18 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi With all the problems, empirically speaking IDF ratio (combatants : civilians) in this war is better than any other urban war against terror done in the past by any country.

https://historyspeaks.substack.com/p/the-ratio-of-civilian-to-combatant

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Inliytened1

   What can you realistically expect from @zazen? Ever since Al Nakba, the Oslo accords, the springs, Israel's been slowly for 80 years expanding and creating small settlements for Zionists, and have demilitarized and made any statehood for Palestinians extra hard. Palestinians don't even have their own police force, so when HAMAs came and took over after Palestinians held that election, and later they find out how extreme HAMAs is, they themselves don't have military or police to coup the HAMAs. Even peace attempts were getting denied more from Israel and less from Palestine! So sorry, IMO Israel holds the greater burden for having created conditions for HAMAs taking over so easily. If they don't want HAMAs in charge, they should never have defanged Palestine so severely over those 80 years, recognized them as a state, and at least helped them make a police force for Palestine's state.

That's fair.

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

No you wouldn't.  It could be a lot worse.  They could have dropped the bomb. Lucky for you they're too close.

6 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yet you sit back in your arm chair and judge.  Having never fled a damn thing.  Or have been made to fled anything.    Try to rationalize a women scorned.   It's a difficult thing to do unless you've stepped into her shoes.  And I can assure you sir, that you have not.  

Fine line between making a judgment and observation. Trauma doesn’t grant anyone a pass to inflict more trauma. Past trauma should become a lesson in empathy rather than an excuse for brutality.

Well done to Israel for not nuking Gaza - the world is grateful they only just dropped a tonnage of bombs larger than Dresden and Hiroshima combined on a strip of land where the majority are women and children which by default mean innocent.

You can’t assure someone you don’t know of what they have or haven’t been through. But I can assure you that attempts at justifying the actions of Israel by comparing them to a more extreme scenario of using a nuke doesn’t come across well.

This only shows how successful Zionist propaganda is at echo chambering those within it - that things they think are normal to say aren’t - and that they only may realise this when their viewpoints come into contact with the outside world which pushes back on it.

Edited June 7 by zazen

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

Fine line between making a judgment and observation. Trauma doesn’t grant anyone a pass to inflict more trauma. Past trauma should become a lesson in empathy rather than an excuse for brutality.

Well done to Israel for not nuking Gaza - the world is grateful they only just dropped a tonnage of bombs larger than Dresden, Hiroshima combined multiple on a strip of land where the majority are women and children which by default mean innocent.

You can’t assure someone you don’t know of what they have or haven’t been through. But I can assure you that attempts at justifying the actions of Israel by comparing them to a more extreme scenario of using a nuke doesn’t come across well.

This only shows how successful Zionist propaganda is at echo chambering those within it - that things they think are normal to say aren’t - and that they only may realise this when their viewpoints come into contact with the outside world which pushes back on it.

   On a side note, what triggered me with the nuke example is that Destiny did use that example, to say that even if Israel did drop a nuke it's not proof of genocidal intent, and this hypothetical was said like a joke from him....another reason why I hate Destiny because that hypothetical implies that large numbers massacred/=/genocide or genocidal intent. This was said in his Normand Finkelstein versus Destiny debate on Lex Fridman, another grifter I passionately hate. It's like if I said to you @zazen that I'm sending a nuke to your location, you and all friends and family will die, but I'm not genocidal intent on you, you and others are just casualties because I'm trying to eradicate lizard people living underneath you, that to me is an insane justification.

Edited June 7 by Danioover9000

[Inliytened1]

@Danioover9000 but did you consider the fact that they may have feared HAMAS would overstep just like EVERYONE else had done to them in the past?  Wouldn't you too in that scenario shut down?  It's hard to cast judgement when you havent walked in their shoes.  It's easy to sit from a distance and say how they should have acted but in the actual scenario it's not always that simple.   Would HAMAS have cooperated?  You're making assumptions if you say they would have.  There is always a bad seed in the apple.

[zazen]

@Inliytened1  Two pages back I commented this regarding Jewish history of persecution.

On 05/06/2024 at 8:03 AM, zazen said:

@Twentyfirst
 

Minority communities are scapegoated for the problems of the majority. It's ironic that the prohibitions and restrictions imposed on Jews by Christian societies pushed them into specific economic roles that, paradoxically, became pathways to financial success and influence that they were then resented for.

Christian doctrine forbade Christians from engaging in usury, creating a vacuum in the moneylending sector that Jews filled. This led them into the heart of wealthy circles allowing them to wield informal influence over powers that denied them formal entry. When economic struggle came Jews were blamed, and debts owed by kings and nobles were conveniently erased by expelling their creditors (Jews).

Marginalization breeds radicalization. The social and economic marginalization drove many Jewish intellectuals towards radical ideologies like socialism and communism, which promised an end to their oppression. These ideologies were revolutionary and would shake the established power structures which further led them to be persecuted.

 

[Raze]

4 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Danioover9000 but did you consider the fact that they may have feared HAMAS would overstep just like EVERYONE else had done to them in the past?  Wouldn't you too in that scenario shut down?  It's hard to cast judgement when you havent walked in their shoes.  It's easy to sit from a distance and say how they should have acted but in the actual scenario it's not always that simple.   Would HAMAS have cooperated?  You're making assumptions if you say they would have.  There is always a bad seed in the apple.

But their actions showed the opposite. They purposefully funded Hamas to hurt the PLO even though the PLO gave up armed resistance and Hamas hadn’t. They moved IDF away from the Gaza border to the West Bank leaving it undefended. They ignored any Hamas offer for a ceasefire before and after oct 7.

[Danioover9000]

@Inliytened1

3 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Danioover9000 but did you consider the fact that they may have feared HAMAS would overstep just like EVERYONE else had done to them in the past?  Wouldn't you too in that scenario shut down?  It's hard to cast judgement when you havent walked in their shoes.  It's easy to sit from a distance and say how they should have acted but in the actual scenario it's not always that simple.   Would HAMAS have cooperated?  You're making assumptions if you say they would have.  There is always a bad seed in the apple.

   And if there's always a few bad apples in the basket, would you agree that the farmer has to have enforcement means to deal with those few bad apples, to remove and coup them out if they refuse to leave? That's what I mean about that 80s years that Israel and Zionists in charge did to Palestinians, slowly taking land, settlements, and demilitarized Palestinians such they don't have even the means to coup HAMMAs now, see what I mean? That's why IMO Israel has greater burden here for contributing to this mess to begin with. If they recognized Palestine as a state, and helped it out a little, allowed them a police force, then Palestinians could have chance to civil war with HAMMAs and throw them out if such.

   And wait a minute, didn't you say fair enough minutes ago??? What's with this 180 degree plot twist???

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, zazen said:

 Trauma doesn’t grant anyone a pass to inflict more trauma. Past trauma should become a lesson in empathy rather than an excuse for brutality.

 

It should be.  But that's much easier said than done.   

 

8 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

Well done to Israel for not nuking Gaza -

I was being facetious. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

4 minutes ago, Raze said:

But their actions showed the opposite. They purposefully funded Hamas to hurt the PLO even though the PLO gave up armed resistance and Hamas hadn’t. They moved IDF away from the Gaza border to the West Bank leaving it undefended. They ignored any Hamas offer for a ceasefire before and after oct 7.

   You mean Israel or Iran funded HAMMAs?

[zazen]

7 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@zazen

   On a side note, what triggered me with the nuke example is that Destiny did use that example, to say that even if Israel did drop a nuke it's not proof of genocidal intent, and this hypothetical was said like a joke from him....another reason why I hate Destiny because that hypothetical implies that large numbers massacred/=/genocide or genocidal intent. This was said in his Normand Finkelstein versus Destiny debate on Lex Fridman, another grifter I passionately hate...

True, defending aggression with hypotheticals of worse aggressions just seems to lack social intelligence of how they come across + a minimisation of the suffering the current aggression is causing.

Destiny seems to imply that the current level of aggression is justified because it hasn’t yet reached the most extreme level of aggressions ie Nuke. 

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, zazen said:

True, defending aggression with hypotheticals of worse aggressions just seems to lack social intelligence of how they come across + a minimisation of the suffering the current aggression is causing.

Destiny seems to imply that the current level of aggression is justified because it hasn’t yet reached the most extreme level of aggressions ie Nuke. 

Dude - you just come off with a complete lack of empathy that you so eagerly want to promote.   I take it that you don't have a horse in the race?

Edited June 7 by Inliytened1

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

2 minutes ago, zazen said:

True, defending aggression with hypotheticals of worse aggressions just seems to lack social intelligence of how they come across + a minimisation of the suffering the current aggression is causing.

Destiny seems to imply that the current level of aggression is justified because it hasn’t yet reached the most extreme level of aggressions ie Nuke. 

   I've always interpreted that Gaza nuke joke from Destiny as him trying to say that massive deaths, massive casualties too many to count or data set/=/genocide or genocidal intent. IMO that's just insane take from him. Like the only way from him to justify this is to bring in asteroid impacts, say on the scale that wiped out the dinosaurs and say well it's such a cataclysmic event that it surely isn't genocide, and if it's genocidal and genocidal intent, this must mean that a bunch of aliens civilizations have manipulated space time and trajectory for an asteroid to impact earth to begin with.