Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Twentyfirst]

4 hours ago, hundreth said:

And which nation is going to suddenly absorb 7+ million Jews?

They would essentially become refugees. Maybe UNRWA can take care of them.

Or maybe... it just makes sense to work towards a two state solution.

USA. The nation that is helping you commit genocide against innocent poor people. They just took in 15 million people from the southern border

Edited June 5 by Twentyfirst

[Twentyfirst]

@hundreth and @Nivsch

Forget about the total 7 million of you. Why don't you two just leave Israel. Don't you see how much suffering it's causing by you being there? Do you have any heart at all or are you just cold blooded machines doomed to destroy everything in your path?

[hundreth]

2 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

USA. The nation that is helping you commit genocide against innocent poor people. They just took in 15 million people from the southern border

Just added you to the ignored list. I really don't have time explaining basics to someone who is still busy trying to figure out why Hitler was problematic.   

[Nivsch]

[Danioover9000]

@Twentyfirst

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

USA. The nation that is helping you commit genocide against innocent poor people. They just took in 15 million people from the southern border

 

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

@hundreth and @Nivsch

Forget about the total 7 million of you. Why don't you two just leave Israel. Don't you see how much suffering it's causing by you being there? Do you have any heart at all or are you just cold blooded machines doomed to destroy everything in your path?

TRUE!😂

[Raze]

 

[Twentyfirst]

@Danioover9000 If you want to understand the Israelis all you need to know is this. When they were in Europe there was two world wars. Once they invaded the Middle East there have been countless wars. Its undeniable, no?

[zazen]

@Twentyfirst You asked about why they were hated in the past so gave some reasons simply related to economic incentives driven by religious differences. If you know other reasons please list them.

Of course past traumas shouldn’t be weaponised to justify present day injustice and the ugly manifestation of Zionism. Perhaps that’s what you get when you marry unhealed trauma and a level of power that corrupts.

Israel has become a reflection of the injustice its founders once fled. A group who were once marginalised now marginalise another to the coast of Gaza with no where left to go except a barren Sinai desert. 

Edited June 6 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

14 hours ago, hundreth said:

My only issue with what you said is "always has been."

It's true Netanyahu is a barrier, but the conflict doesn't start and end with him. There have been many leaders and decades of dysfunction. Israel has had leaders who were open to a two state solution and who have gone to great lengths to get there. In one case, he gave up his life.

In any event, I'd rather not go in circles over the past again because it doesn't help us today. It only keeps us further at odds.

For the Palestinians to have a state you need the following:

1.) A leader the majority of Palestinians stand behind (Bibi works against this)

2.) The recognition of Israel and waiving the right to return as a general principle. (There can be specific instances.)

3.) An Israeli government focused on peace.

4.) Land swaps and the rolling back of certain settlements.

5.) Security guarantees for both states.

At some moments we were close. You have to be able to keep the two sides in the same room together.

There are plenty of very reasonable Palestinian officials. They may be corrupt in terms of abusing funds but they are not for destruction of Israel.

West Bank government I think is moderate enough for a two state. I have seen on Piers Morgan Palestinian officials come and they are very reasonable people. At least much more than Bibi or Ben Gvir. 

Hamas is indeed anti two state but they do not need to be the governing body.

And most Palestinians live in the West Bank, not in Gaza.

There were reasonable Israelis on the past, sure. But today it seems they go from right to Nazi right. There is no center or left anymore. Even "moderates" would be considered far right here in Europe.

The October attacks make Israelis more right and Israel massacre in Gaza makes Palestinians more right.

So we are stuck in this shit.

I think it would be good if both top Israeli and Hamas leaders would be arrested and trialed for war crimes by the international court. So people from both sides would learn that you cannot get away with bullshit.

Also the West Bank illegal settlements need to stop and be torned down. Palestine according to 1960s borders need to be cleansed from illegal settlements.

I think these 2 things would be a good start and they are not that impossible to be done.

I mean, what justification is there for the West Bank illegal settlements? To me it seems plain wrong.

More than 500 or so people have died since October there, it is now almost as many as Israeli October attack. And they had nothing to do with it. It makes Palestinians rightfully think that even if Hamas was gone and they created a moderate government they would still be treated like shit and have more land illegaly stolen.

How do people in Isarel justify this?

Edited June 6 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

On 03/06/2024 at 6:06 PM, hundreth said:

🤦‍♂️

You were shown photos and content posted directly by Hamas and continue to pretend they don't exist.

Sorry, I meant of beheaded babies or people tied in and burnt alive and that horrible stuff people wrote without any footage.

I did see the footage at Hamas.com.

It was basically people shot mostly.

I did not see woman belly opened or baby in an oven or anything like that.

Let alone done in plural, meaning in multiple cases.

Scale also matters here. 1-2 incidents is not the same as a systematic approach.

Saying people were shot is 1 thing.

Saying people were killed in the most medievil mongolian way is another.

I am challenging the second point, not the first.

Hamas systematic approach was shot in the head whoever you saw.

That is a Nazi approach, not a medieval approach.

 

Edited June 6 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

On 01/06/2024 at 10:54 AM, Vrubel said:

Generally speaking, Israelis have no choice but to serve in their army. I am not in a position to judge because I have not served myself. I always thought of myself as lucky but now I regret it in a sense because defending your country whether in combat or non-combat roles is important and you also simply learn valuable life skills that will greatly benefit the rest of your life. But I have no problem with the conscious objector here and there, still, though I have more respect for the people doing the fighting and working on Israel's defense. 

 

Issue is that the israeli army does tons of war crimes and is overall very racist.

They abuse childreen in the west bank, bully people etc.

I saw an interview of an ex IDF guy who said "We all have total knowledge of who lives where in the West Bank and sometimes we do raids in the middle of the night, knowing the people in that house are innocent. We did it in order to keep them obedient to us. This had made the guy question the approach and later went to denounce it. This is for example someone I can respect. 

Another case I saw was where they would put Palestinians in very closed spaces as punishment's and then forget about them and they were stuck there for hours or even days. Sometimes the soldiers did it out of boredoom.  There was another confession by ex IDF about this.

I wish I could find the videos to send it here.

So an army like this to me seems basically a gang of bullies and criminals.

Serving in it pollutes your ethics.

There are way too many incidents like this to justify it.

I am not saying everyone there is like this but the undertone and systemic approach is extremely ruthless, especially by our modern liberal moral standards.

Which is why I cannot respect people that endorse such a bully machine.

Defending you country is one thing but the shit I wrote above is just cruel and wrong and unecessary.

And about the nerdy girl doing programming.

Here is what a programmer with orthodox Jew ideology can lead to:

‘The machine did it coldly’: Israel used AI to identify 37,000 Hamas targets | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

 

Edited June 6 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

The security is quite significant here. This evening the LGBTQ assembly with a different format this year together with a Hostages release demonstration.

Edited June 6 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

11 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The security is quite significant here. This evening the LGBTQ assembly with a different format this year together with a Hostages release demonstration.

 

If you guys had the same tolerance for Palestinians that you do for LGBT 

Instead of being happy when they die.

[Raze]

 

[zazen]

If this is Israel going conducting a war of defence I wouldn’t want to know what a war of offence looks like - probably like using a flamethrower to light a candle.

Edited June 6 by zazen

[Nivsch]

On 2.6.2024 at 9:50 PM, zazen said:

Yeah, that definetely complicates things because it’s militarily strategic and with the history between the two groups would make it very risky to allow each other to have. 

The same area (West Bank) where the Palestinian state would be is at the same time unrealistic for Israel to allow unless it is a demilitarised region - but then it isn’t a state in the truest sense with full sovereignty.

Not sure what the solution could even be. Maybe managed by a group of other neutral players / peace keepers. 

I also think it will be demilitarized at least at the beginning although they still have an armed security force that co-operates already with IDF for years to suppress hamas in this area.

Edited June 7 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

7 hours ago, zazen said:

If this is Israel going conducting a war of defence I wouldn’t want to know what a war of offence looks like - probably like using a flamethrower to light a candle.

There is no war of offense. They always attack from the position of victimhood. Remember when they first invaded in 1948 it was under the premise of them being refugees that needed help 

[Inliytened1]

8 hours ago, zazen said:

If this is Israel going conducting a war of defence I wouldn’t want to know what a war of offence looks like - probably like using a flamethrower to light a candle.

No you wouldn't.  It could be a lot worse.  They could have dropped the bomb. Lucky for you they're too close.

Edited June 7 by Inliytened1

[Inliytened1]

On 6/6/2024 at 1:46 AM, zazen said:

 

Israel has become a reflection of the injustice its founders once fled. 

Yet you sit back in your arm chair and judge.  Having never fled a damn thing.  Or have been made to fled anything.    Try to rationalize a women scorned.   It's a difficult thing to do unless you've stepped into her shoes.  And I can assure you sir, that you have not.  

Edited June 7 by Inliytened1

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yet you sit back in your arm chair and judge.  Having never fled a damn thing.  Or have been made to fled anything.    Try to rationalize a women scorned.   It's a difficult thing to do unless you've stepped into her shoes.  And I can assure you sir, that you have not.  

You are right. You me or the other guy has not experienced anything horrible like this.

Lets maybe look at what those that have experienced horror says about it.

Like some Holocaust survivors.

BBC News - Holocaust families criticise Israel over Gaza

"More than 300 Holocaust survivors and their descendants have issued a statement condemning what they call Israel's "genocide" in Gaza.

The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network placed the statement as an advertisement in the New York Times"

Hmmm....

5 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

No you wouldn't.  It could be a lot worse.  They could have dropped the bomb. Lucky for you they're too close.

Also Russia could do a lot worse in Ukraine. By that logic we are also cool with Putin now?