Israel / Palestine News Thread

[zazen]

@Twentyfirst
 

Minority communities are scapegoated for the problems of the majority. It's ironic that the prohibitions and restrictions imposed on Jews by Christian societies pushed them into specific economic roles that, paradoxically, became pathways to financial success and influence that they were then resented for.

Christian doctrine forbade Christians from engaging in usury, creating a vacuum in the moneylending sector that Jews filled. This led them into the heart of wealthy circles allowing them to wield informal influence over powers that denied them formal entry. When economic struggle came Jews were blamed, and debts owed by kings and nobles were conveniently erased by expelling their creditors (Jews).

Marginalization breeds radicalization. The social and economic marginalization drove many Jewish intellectuals towards radical ideologies like socialism and communism, which promised an end to their oppression. These ideologies were revolutionary and would shake the established power structures which further led them to be persecuted.

[Merkabah Star]

2 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

You didn't answer the question  

I did, you missed it. 

Maybe a Jewish kid took his ball or something when he was 10? Psychopaths gunna psychopath, yo.  😀

 

[zazen]

The US House of Representatives just passed a bill to sanction ICC officials: the diplomatic equivalent of a toddler throwing a tantrum because the adults are trying to serve justice, that may hold the toddler accountable.

Ironic that the self-proclaimed global gladiator of justice who architected the international order is now lashing out at the very court that’s job is to deliver justice and order. 

The American eagle once soaring high is now flapping its wings under a burden of hypocrisy that erodes its global standing -  and all for a foreign state that gives barely any thanks for it.

Edited June 5 by zazen

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

3 hours ago, zazen said:

The US House of Representatives just passed a bill to sanction ICC officials: the diplomatic equivalent of a toddler throwing a tantrum because the adults are trying to serve justice, that may hold the toddler accountable.

Ironic that the self-proclaimed global gladiator of justice who architected the international order is now lashing out at the very court that’s job is to deliver justice and order. 

The American eagle once soaring high is now flapping its wings under a burden of hypocrisy that erodes its global standing -  and all for a foreign state that gives barely any thanks for it.

   Yeah, it's a bad move by the USA.

[Twentyfirst]

6 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

I did, you missed it. 

Maybe a Jewish kid took his ball or something when he was 10? Psychopaths gunna psychopath, yo.  😀

 

This is so freaking sketchy. So the entire world hates your guts and it has absolutely nothing to do with anything that you guys have done???? Come on now. The entire world has always hated you and wanted you gone but there is no reason why they want you gone and you guys are just victims?

[Twentyfirst]

7 hours ago, zazen said:

@Twentyfirst
 

Minority communities are scapegoated for the problems of the majority. It's ironic that the prohibitions and restrictions imposed on Jews by Christian societies pushed them into specific economic roles that, paradoxically, became pathways to financial success and influence that they were then resented for.

Christian doctrine forbade Christians from engaging in usury, creating a vacuum in the moneylending sector that Jews filled. This led them into the heart of wealthy circles allowing them to wield informal influence over powers that denied them formal entry. When economic struggle came Jews were blamed, and debts owed by kings and nobles were conveniently erased by expelling their creditors (Jews).

Marginalization breeds radicalization. The social and economic marginalization drove many Jewish intellectuals towards radical ideologies like socialism and communism, which promised an end to their oppression. These ideologies were revolutionary and would shake the established power structures which further led them to be persecuted.

"The Jews are just so amazing that everyone was jealous of us, we are victims always and forever"

[Danioover9000]

@Twentyfirst

13 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

"The Jews are just so amazing that everyone was jealous of us, we are victims always and forever"

   Yeah, victim mentality and victim cards are traps. "God's chosen people.".

[hundreth]

20 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

"The Jews are just so amazing that everyone was jealous of us, we are victims always and forever"

I was going to reply to @zazen that his response was very well written and informative, but that he was likely wasting his time since there's a breadth of information out there on this subject which you don't care about and have willfully ignored. I was too late.

You ignored the substance of what he wrote. You've already made up your mind on the subject, so why bother asking?

Edited June 5 by hundreth

[Nivsch]

On 4.6.2024 at 0:16 PM, Twentyfirst said:

Israelis could leave to another land if they wanted

They couldn't. You won't forget your home you left after couple of decades, so too a nation won't forget its home after couple of centuries.

Edited June 5 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

They couldn't. You won't forget your home you left after couple of decades, so too a nation won't forget its home after couple of centuries.

And which nation is going to suddenly absorb 7+ million Jews?

They would essentially become refugees. Maybe UNRWA can take care of them.

Or maybe... it just makes sense to work towards a two state solution.

[Nivsch]

4 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Or maybe... it just makes sense to work towards a two state solution.

Right.

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

10 hours ago, zazen said:

@Twentyfirst
 

Minority communities are scapegoated for the problems of the majority. It's ironic that the prohibitions and restrictions imposed on Jews by Christian societies pushed them into specific economic roles that, paradoxically, became pathways to financial success and influence that they were then resented for.

Christian doctrine forbade Christians from engaging in usury, creating a vacuum in the moneylending sector that Jews filled. This led them into the heart of wealthy circles allowing them to wield informal influence over powers that denied them formal entry. When economic struggle came Jews were blamed, and debts owed by kings and nobles were conveniently erased by expelling their creditors (Jews).

Marginalization breeds radicalization. The social and economic marginalization drove many Jewish intellectuals towards radical ideologies like socialism and communism, which promised an end to their oppression. These ideologies were revolutionary and would shake the established power structures which further led them to be persecuted.

   Yes, I think though the marginalization breeds radicalization, mostly comes from too much mass immigration too quickly for cultural indoctrination of the new culture to occur, so you'd be left with some portion of the immigration population bringing in their cultural baggage with them, and insisting on some part to remain like the culture they migrated from into the new land they are living in, and overtime with more immigration there's more resistance to adopt into the new culture they're migrating to.

[hundreth]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/mediator-qatar-urges-clear-positions-gaza-ceasefire-2024-06-04/

Quote

Qatar said on Tuesday it delivered an Israeli proposal to Hamas that reflected the positions stated by U.S. President Joe Biden, adding that the paper was now much closer to the positions of both sides.

 

Edited June 5 by hundreth

[Nivsch]

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/mediator-qatar-urges-clear-positions-gaza-ceasefire-2024-06-04/

 

Israel has to establish now a security belt surronding the strip 5km depth into Gaza area built with multiple kinds of obstacles and save itself the right to respond harshly for every provocation from the side of hamas, what will anyway make slowly the guarantees US give to Qatar and Egypt to dissolve during the time and the next round is only a matter of time because hamas won't change.

Edited June 5 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

The guest on this segment does a good job describing the dynamic between Netanyahu and Sinwar.

[hundreth]

14 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Israel has to establish now a security belt surronding the strip 5km depth into Gaza area built with multiple kinds of obstacles and save itself the right to respond harshly for every provocation from the side of hamas.

I'd personally like to see an international peacekeeping force in place. If Israelis are completely responsible for securing the border, they will always test the boundaries for potentially nefarious reasons, to spite Israel, and in some cases to sew chaos which results in civilian deaths again.

[Karmadhi]

25 minutes ago, hundreth said:

I'd personally like to see an international peacekeeping force in place. If Israelis are completely responsible for securing the border, they will always test the boundaries for potentially nefarious reasons, to spite Israel, and in some cases to sew chaos which results in civilian deaths again.

Issue is that Israel is unwilling to give them a proper state, always has been. 

If Israel was serious about peace it would give Palestine a state, according to the 1948 borders.

If that is not possible, 1967 borders.

I understand that is very hard now with Hamas being so popular but why did they not do it in the past?

I read that Bibi personally tried to undermine the Oslo accords and many Israelis have said they were a shit deal for Palestinians.

I see a total lack of desire from Israel to become serious about this.

 

[hundreth]

8 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Issue is that Israel is unwilling to give them a proper state, always has been. 

If Israel was serious about peace it would give Palestine a state, according to the 1948 borders.

If that is not possible, 1967 borders.

I understand that is very hard now with Hamas being so popular but why did they not do it in the past?

I read that Bibi personally tried to undermine the Oslo accords and many Israelis have said they were a shit deal for Palestinians.

I see a total lack of desire from Israel to become serious about this.

 

My only issue with what you said is "always has been."

It's true Netanyahu is a barrier, but the conflict doesn't start and end with him. There have been many leaders and decades of dysfunction. Israel has had leaders who were open to a two state solution and who have gone to great lengths to get there. In one case, he gave up his life.

In any event, I'd rather not go in circles over the past again because it doesn't help us today. It only keeps us further at odds.

For the Palestinians to have a state you need the following:

1.) A leader the majority of Palestinians stand behind (Bibi works against this)

2.) The recognition of Israel and waiving the right to return as a general principle. (There can be specific instances.)

3.) An Israeli government focused on peace.

4.) Land swaps and the rolling back of certain settlements.

5.) Security guarantees for both states.

At some moments we were close. You have to be able to keep the two sides in the same room together.

 

[hundreth]

Quote

Itamar Rabinovich in "The Failure of Camp David: Four Different Narratives" identified, respectively:

the orthodox view (expressed by Clinton and Barak after proceedings closed): that Israel had a serious offer but the Palestinian camp stonewalled; early comments by Shlo­mo Ben-Ami (foreign minister under Barak) stated outright that Arafat did not want to make a deal and was "incapable of doing so". Ben-Ami has refined his arguments with a book last year (Prophets Without Honor) which spreads the blame a little more, calling out Barak as being ineffective at negotiating and Clinton as ineffective at mediating.

the revisionist view, that Israeli never really had a serious offer and traces the issue back to Oslo (The Oslo Accords of 1993, establishing a Palestinian Authority) and that in the 2000 agreement the land swaps in particular proposed were especially unfeasible (looking at 8-1 or 9-1 swaps when the Palestinians wanted 1-1) [note this is written from the Palestinian point of view, and according to the other side there was no such suggestion -- at least what we have documented doesn't show such]

a deterministic view, that the whole idea of the 2000 summit was doomed to fail (so "blame" in the individual details did not make sense); General Amos Gilad of the Israeli Defense Forces and Kissinger in his book Does America Need A Foreign Policy? both ran along those lines

an eclectic view, which tries not to settle on leaning one side or the other to "blame" but rather points out individual issues, like A Guide to a Wounded Dove by Beilin

In recent times it seems that the "revisionist view" has been espoused as fact and this leads to a lot of animosity.

There are many interpretations of what happens during these peace negotiations. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

[Twentyfirst]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

They couldn't. You won't forget your home you left after couple of decades, so too a nation won't forget its home after couple of centuries.

YOU ARE FROM EUROPE