Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Karmadhi]

Dont you find it disturbing that it is hard with us that have no real horse in the race to reach consensuses with relatively conscious Israelis (I say so since they are even on this forum).

Imagine now for ur average Palestinian who has dead people from Israel to reach consensus with a government full of radicals.

Impossible...

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

50 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Legally in that Jews migrated there legally. What's hard to understand about that? They went through normal legal means to emigrate there, and purchased land legally. Would Arabs have allowed Jews in had it not been under British rule? I don't know. But that's not the fault of Jews.

Like I said, the region was under occupation for centuries. During that time, many groups came and went. Many "native" Palestinians you speak of also emigrated there in recent times. That's what happens in any land, people come and go. There's nothing inherently nefarious about Jewish emigration to a land. 

This one is pretty lazy, and I think you can do better. You're comparing Jews legally emigrating to an area after the holocaust, and then having the UN create a partition on occupied land to Putin forcefully starting a military operation. 

Fair enough.

   Well that happened after the fact, and made legal afterwards. For example the Peterloo massacre in the UK happened, and both during/after the parliament then signed a bunch of papers to legally justify that massacre. So?

   Yes, people come and go in any land, except during the British mandate and when immigration of European Zionists were small, the majority of that land belonged to Palestinians largely. Sorry but people come and go is weak justification for Zionists taking over Palestinian lands violently. That's Hitler's excuse as well, because people come and go he can do WW2 and genocide the Jewish population, because people come and go. This is as crazy as Destiny's hypothetical of nuking Gaza /=/ genocidal intent, because people die when they are killed, and when people die too many times, it's not genocide...

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

5 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Dont you find it disturbing that it is hard with us that have no real horse in the race to reach consensuses with relatively conscious Israelis (I say so since they are even on this forum).

Imagine now for ur average Palestinian who has dead people from Israel to reach consensus with a government full of radicals.

Impossible...

   This is a lesson on the traps, on being wrong and being self deceiving, on propaganda, on ideology and dogma. This is what lies can do to generations of people overtime.

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

48 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The populated land of Palestinians today is I think similar in its surface area to the populated land Israelis are living it. Half of the map is an unpopulated desert.

West bank is huge mountainy zone what make its surface area to be much greater.

Furthermore the white zone includes both Jews and Arabs Israelis.

   Okay then, can you provide a more accurate mapping of that region, with exact topography and populations of Palestinians to Israeli over that 80 year timespan? And if you're right that much of Palestinian land, about half is uninhabitable desert, then it makes the genocide, land grabbing, and displacement of Palestinians overtime far more severe. 

Edited May 30 by Danioover9000

[hundreth]

37 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Ok, but was the land they bought 60% of Palestine? Also did the number of Jews that migrated there legally become 60% of the people that lived in the land? If yes, then I stand corrected. I am not against the partition plan but to me whenever you split land, it should be proportional to the people that live there. The majority gets most of the land. But that is my bias. 

Of course not. Not sure what you mean by 60% of the people, do you mean the current population? If so, much of the current population consist of Jews expelled from surrounding Arab nations.

In terms of the partition and proportions, maybe you're right. It's too late for 1948 negotiations though. Now there are new issues and concerns we need to deal with.

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Again, the issue I got is that a British guy can claim Israeli citizenship meanwhile a Palestinian cannot. That is a big issue.

The solution to that is Palestinian statehood, as we both agreed to already.

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Legality is tricky because laws change with time. If by legal you mean the Palestinian government  (yes, they had passports even), approved it then it is fair game. If by legal you mean the UK said "these people will come here", then that is a red flag. Because UK has their own interest and agenda.

The Palestinian government at the time was the UK. So how can you separate it? That's who the Jews obtained passports from, the "Palestinian government." It's fair to say the UK had it's own agenda, but you can't blame Jews for that. 

It's funny to me that so many make legal arguments now based on the legality from UN rulings. The same UN who created the partition plan which resulted in the formation of Israel. The UN also has it's own agenda, which ebbs and flows with time.

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Issue is the excuse they use for it. Israelis say "we are here because the land was ours 2000 years ago". Putin says "Ukraine and Russia were 1 entity 1000 years ago and therefore we claim it again".

False equivalence and you're conflating two different things. One is the groups of people living in the lands, and the other relates to nation states. Jews living in the region, should they not be able to live in their ancestral homeland now? That's a separate question from the nation state of Israel. Jews will always try to be in Israel regardless of the sovereign nation state in power because it's part of their religion. Their entire religion revolves around Israel. They've always had a presence there. You can't reduce it to a simple land issue. Putin's case is one sovereign nation state attacking another sovereign nation state for the sole purpose of land expansion.

[hundreth]

7 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@hundreth

   Well that happened after the fact, and made legal afterwards. For example the Peterloo massacre in the UK happened, and both during/after the parliament then signed a bunch of papers to legally justify that massacre. So?

   Yes, people come and go in any land, except during the British mandate and when immigration of European Zionists were small, the majority of that land belonged to Palestinians largely. Sorry but people come and go is weak justification for Zionists taking over Palestinian lands violently. That's Hitler's excuse as well, because people come and go he can do WW2 and genocide the Jewish population, because people come and go. This is as crazy as Destiny's hypothetical of nuking Gaza /=/ genocidal intent, because people die when they are killed, and when people die too many times, it's not genocide...

After the fact of what? When Jews migrated to the region, it was under British rule and legal. At that moment it was legal, not after the fact.

You're re-writing history. They didn't take over Palestinian lands violently. They arrived. There was a partition plan, it was rejected. Arabs declared war. Violence ensued. Now we can dissect after the fact how the war was conducted and find flaws, but they didn't just show up and start violently evicting Arabs. 

Try to make one post without mentioning Hitler, I dare you.

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

2 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Of course not. Not sure what you mean by 60% of the people, do you mean the current population? If so, much of the current population consist of Jews expelled from surrounding Arab nations.

In terms of the partition and proportions, maybe you're right. It's too late for 1948 negotiations though. Now there are new issues and concerns we need to deal with.

The solution to that is Palestinian statehood, as we both agreed to already.

The Palestinian government at the time was the UK. So how can you separate it? That's who the Jews obtained passports from, the "Palestinian government." It's fair to say the UK had it's own agenda, but you can't blame Jews for that. 

It's funny to me that so many make legal arguments now based on the legality from UN rulings. The same UN who created the partition plan which resulted in the formation of Israel. The UN also has it's own agenda, which ebbs and flows with time.

False equivalence and you're conflating two different things. One is the groups of people living in the lands, and the other relates to nation states. Jews living in the region, should they not be able to live in their ancestral homeland now? That's a separate question from the nation state of Israel. Jews will always try to be in Israel regardless of the sovereign nation state in power because it's part of their religion. Their entire religion revolves around Israel. They've always had a presence there. You can't reduce it to a simple land issue. Putin's case is one sovereign nation state attacking another sovereign nation state for the sole purpose of land expansion.

   No, I think he meant 100% of Palestinians, and yes maybe you're right that it's too late for negotiations dating back to 1948, because it's almost one hundred years old now. And yes, because there are 100 new issues currently we must forget about the Al Nakba, the Oslo Accords, the other events in that 80 year timespan, because the new hundred issues are too much for Millennials and Gen Z to handle with, and they hate history because it's boring to contextualize this conflict. Also laws are written after the fact it happened. 

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

Just now, hundreth said:

After the fact of what? When Jews migrated to the region, it was under British rule and legal. At that moment it was legal, not after the fact.

You're re-writing history. They didn't take over Palestinian lands violently. They arrived. There was a partition plan, it was rejected. Arabs declared war. Violence ensued. Now we can dissect after the fact how the war was conducted and find flaws, but they didn't just show up and start violently evicting Arabs. 

Try to make one post without mentioning Hitler, I dare you.

   Ok, so the European Zionists, after transfer from the British mandate onto USA, they gentle nudged the indigenous Palestinians away from their lands, and made settlements in peace. Let's just forget the alt right did violently displace and genocide most of them into smaller and smaller lands over time. 

[Nivsch]

[Yimpa]

@Nivsch That’s pretty brave of them 

[Nivsch]

18 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

@Nivsch That’s pretty brave of them 

I hope he will replace Bibi again. Those parades even in Jerusalem are already a years long tradition but yeah in Jerusalem it is even more important and never for granted.

Edited May 30 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

30 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

If they had have said fighting for the right to free Palestine it may have been commendable. Just more BS from Israel pretending to be so loving and kind. 

Edited May 30 by Merkabah Star

[Danioover9000]

@Merkabah Star

2 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

If they had have said fighting for the right to free Palestine it may have been commendable. Just more BS from Israel pretending to be so loving and kind. 

   Yeah, but I guess they are afraid of getting jailed and beaten to death.

[Nivsch]

24 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Merkabah Star

   Yeah, but I guess they are afraid of getting jailed and beaten to death.

Palestinians that come out as LGBTQ?

Edited May 30 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

28 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

If they had have said fighting for the right to free Palestine it may have been commendable. Just more BS from Israel pretending to be so loving and kind. 

There are other not less important groups/societies.

Edited May 30 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008–2009)

It is shocking how brutal Israel has always been on Gaza.

It is the same tactics, the same crimes as today.

And back then there was no October terrorist attacks.

Whoever blames this on Hamas massacring civilians is full of shit.

They always targeted Gaza as a whole even when there were no killings of Israeli civilians.

The only difference now is that the scale is 40 times larger.

It is sad that those kids that became orphans or had kids die from this, ended up joining Hamas and maybe being implicated on the October terrorist attacks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War

Also this one, but this is fairly more known.

By reading this, I understand where the hatred of Palestinians comes from towards Israel.

I cannot seem to find where Israeli hatred of Palestinians comes from.

The last proper attack against Israeli population was in 2001.

And the last proper war was 50 years ago.

Where do the 20 year olds get this hate in Israel?

 

Edited May 30 by Karmadhi

[Merkabah Star]

Stacy Gilbert, who has served in the State Department’s Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration, resigned over conflicting reports about Israel blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza

 

Edited May 30 by Merkabah Star

[Merkabah Star]

We speak with Kenneth Roth, international affairs scholar and former head of Human Rights Watch, about revelations that Israel waged a nearly decadelong campaign to intimidate the International Criminal Court in order to stop possible war crimes prosecutions of Israeli officials. A joint investigation by The Guardian and the Israeli +972 Magazine revealed that Israel surveilled, hacked, smeared and threatened top ICC officials, including chief prosecutor Karim Khan and his predecessor, Fatou Bensouda.

 

 

[Merkabah Star]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Merkabah Star

   Yeah, but I guess they are afraid of getting jailed and beaten to death.

True. 

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008–2009)

It is shocking how brutal Israel has always been on Gaza.

It is the same tactics, the same crimes as today.

And back then there was no October terrorist attacks.

Whoever blames this on Hamas massacring civilians is full of shit.

They always targeted Gaza as a whole even when there were no killings of Israeli civilians.

The only difference now is that the scale is 40 times larger.

It is sad that those kids that became orphans or had kids die from this, ended up joining Hamas and maybe being implicated on the October terrorist attacks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War

Also this one, but this is fairly more known.

By reading this, I understand where the hatred of Palestinians comes from towards Israel.

I cannot seem to find where Israeli hatred of Palestinians comes from.

The last proper attack against Israeli population was in 2001.

And the last proper war was 50 years ago.

Where do the 20 year olds get this hate in Israel?

 

   Yeah, what Israel did to Palestine is like drip torture, over time, over 80 years, nothing in comparison to oct 7, or any of the smaller skirmishes from HAMMAs to Israel. The most highly moral army, yeah right.