Israel / Palestine News Thread

[hundreth]

30 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@hundreth

   How am I ranting and retreading ground?

I just responded directly to what you said about the Likud leveraging the hostages for political purposes, and I pointed out why I think the hostages only get in the way of the Likud's goals because it's obvious they aren't doing anything meaningful to getting them back - and so it creates internal dissent in Israel.

Your response was a diatribe about the conflict as a whole and how it's all the Likud's fault and yada yada. 

From where I'm sitting, it looks like you just want to lecture the "bad guys" and have projected some persona onto us. I think the idea of someone who isn't completely anti-Israel with a nuanced perspective is perplexing to you.

Edited May 29 by hundreth

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, hundreth said:

I don't know anyone who says "babies are terrorists."

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/knesset-member-walks-back-on-facebook-post-calling-palestinian-kids-little-snakes

This is from a politican.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240314-ben-gvir-backs-police-who-killed-child-in-jerusalem/

Another one.

I also saw tons of soldiers that were in live streaming with Palestinians saying this type of stuff. Also random Israelis. Also some people on show medias. I do not have direct sources right now to send you. But i saw dozens of these examples.

6 hours ago, hundreth said:

Hamas does use human shields by operating in civilian infra. However, it doesn't absolve us of not using enough care and discretion to avoid civilian casualties. 

Yes. Israel does not care and often targets civilians on purpose. Or it is willing to basically destroy entire buildings to get 1 guy.

6 hours ago, hundreth said:

I also hear that teenagers are given weapons and instructed to go into combat, resulting in additional death of children. I think this is a valid criticism

Can you send some sources for that. Never heard that. I can imagine a 15 year old guy might, but I am talking here about kids younger than 10. The median age dead is 5 year old according to a norwegian study.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Czkqdv0tKAf/

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, hundreth said:

There is an understanding that the Palestinians and much of the broader Arab world wants Jews exterminated. And for that reason, they are having trouble empathizing with thousands of Palestinian civilians dying and living in hellish conditions.

 

I think this is a bit of a lie though.

I have spoken with many hardcore Arabs about this. Basically they want their LAND back.

Not to wipe out Jews, they do not care about Jews per say. It is about LAND.

If Israel magically gave Palestine back all their land from the 1947 mandate, I think they would stop hating you guys so much.

They basically see the whole 1947 UN partition plan as bullshit done by the US/UK and do not see it as legit. That is why Arabs went to war with Israel. There were already jews living in that piece of land and things were fine. They were treated quite well and they lived in harmony with the muslims there. Everything started going to shit when European Jews came there and then it became a melting pot of random nationalities claiming Israeli citizenship. If that land was only kept for Arab Jews within an Arab country, I think Jews there would have been fine. Fundamentally the issue here is not Jews, but ZIONISM. If you are a non Zionist Jew you will be loved more by Arabs than being a non Jewish Zionist. But that is my interpretnation.

Now with this Gaza war, you will have an entire generation of Palestinians wanting to kill you and an entire generation of youth around the world despising Israel and calling it a genocidal terrorist disgusting country.

The damage done to Israeli reputation is as large as the damage done to Gaza materially.

Edited May 29 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

27 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I think this is a bit of a lie though.

I have spoken with many hardcore Arabs about this. Basically they want their LAND back.

Not to wipe out Jews, they do not care about Jews per say. It is about LAND.

If Israel magically gave Palestine back all their land from the 1947 mandate, I think they would stop hating you guys so much.

They basically see the whole 1947 UN partition plan as bullshit done by the US/UK and do not see it as legit. That is why Arabs went to war with Israel. There were already jews living in that piece of land and things were fine. They were treated quite well and they lived in harmony with the muslims there. Everything started going to shit when European Jews came there and then it became a melting pot of random nationalities claiming Israeli citizenship. If that land was only kept for Arab Jews within an Arab country, I think Jews there would have been fine. Fundamentally the issue here is not Jews, but ZIONISM. If you are a non Zionist Jew you will be loved more by Arabs than being a non Jewish Zionist. But that is my interpretnation.

Now with this Gaza war, you will have an entire generation of Palestinians wanting to kill you and an entire generation of youth around the world despising Israel and calling it a genocidal terrorist disgusting country.

The damage done to Israeli reputation is as large as the damage done to Gaza materially.

   Yes, that's basically it, they want their land back, and Palestine to be recognized as a state.

[Karmadhi]

38 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Yes, that's basically it, they want their land back, and Palestine to be recognized as a state.

Basically Arabs say Israel is not a state, meanwhile Israelis defend themselves by going back to Kindoms of Judea and other stuff dating back over 3000 years.

Then Israelis will say Palestine is not a state, meanwhile Palestinians will defend themselves by going back to 1920s and 1930s where you had the "Palestinian Mandate" which even Roosevelt indirectly recognized as a country on a  Hitler's speech in 1939.

Clown show.

[hundreth]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/knesset-member-walks-back-on-facebook-post-calling-palestinian-kids-little-snakes

This is from a politican.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240314-ben-gvir-backs-police-who-killed-child-in-jerusalem/

Another one.

I also saw tons of soldiers that were in live streaming with Palestinians saying this type of stuff. Also random Israelis. Also some people on show medias. I do not have direct sources right now to send you. But i saw dozens of these examples.

Yes. Israel does not care and often targets civilians on purpose. Or it is willing to basically destroy entire buildings to get 1 guy.

Can you send some sources for that. Never heard that. I can imagine a 15 year old guy might, but I am talking here about kids younger than 10. The median age dead is 5 year old according to a norwegian study.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Czkqdv0tKAf/

The links you shared show that there are some weirdos out there saying related things, and that's unfortunate. But like I said - I've never heard anyone say babies are terrorists. That's absurd. That wouldn't even be a minority perspective.

Is it really controversial that teenagers are engaging in combat on Hamas' behalf? A teenager is someone 13-19, and still considered a child by most reports.

https://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2021/07/hamas-defends-its-military-summer-camps-for-children-and-teenagers.php

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-780613

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qassam_Brigades

Quote

Hamas fighters are largely recruited from unemployed minors, aged under 18. About 50,000 Gazan youths under 18 registered for "security" training.[64][65][66] Recruitment is likely driven by the highest unemployment in the world, where 45% of Gazans are unemployed.[67][68]

That's from Wikipedia.

[hundreth]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I think this is a bit of a lie though.

I have spoken with many hardcore Arabs about this. Basically they want their LAND back.

Not to wipe out Jews, they do not care about Jews per say. It is about LAND.

If Israel magically gave Palestine back all their land from the 1947 mandate, I think they would stop hating you guys so much.

They basically see the whole 1947 UN partition plan as bullshit done by the US/UK and do not see it as legit. That is why Arabs went to war with Israel. There were already jews living in that piece of land and things were fine. They were treated quite well and they lived in harmony with the muslims there. Everything started going to shit when European Jews came there and then it became a melting pot of random nationalities claiming Israeli citizenship. If that land was only kept for Arab Jews within an Arab country, I think Jews there would have been fine. Fundamentally the issue here is not Jews, but ZIONISM. If you are a non Zionist Jew you will be loved more by Arabs than being a non Jewish Zionist. But that is my interpretnation.

Now with this Gaza war, you will have an entire generation of Palestinians wanting to kill you and an entire generation of youth around the world despising Israel and calling it a genocidal terrorist disgusting country.

The damage done to Israeli reputation is as large as the damage done to Gaza materially.

You're asked about the mentality of Israelis, I answered. You are free to disagree with the rationale, but it's no lie this is where the mentality stems from.

I don't know what a "hardcore Arab" is or how many you've spoken to. There's no real way to know exactly what the broader Arab world believes in their hearts. I think you are naive to think that Arabs living in completely different nations are so concerned with Palestinian land as their primary motive. They don't seem to care about Palestinian lives otherwise, they seem to care mostly about Jews. If you look at those nations today, the entire Jewish populations were expelled. That's no coincidence.

What Israelis do know is that many wars have been waged against them with the intention to destroy them. What do you think would have happened if those Arab nations won in 48? 67? 73? Would all those Jews living there have been given a "Palestine" citizenship with full equal rights? No. They would have been eliminated or expelled from the river to the sea and become a footnote in history - just like all the expelled Jews are from other neighboring Arab nations who have lived there for centuries.

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

You're asked about the mentality of Israelis, I answered. You are free to disagree with the rationale, but it's no lie this is where the mentality stems from.

I don't know what a "hardcore Arab" is or how many you've spoken to. There's no real way to know exactly what the broader Arab world believes in their hearts. I think you are naive to think that Arabs living in completely different nations are so concerned with Palestinian land as their primary motive. They don't seem to care about Palestinian lives otherwise, they seem to care mostly about Jews. If you look at those nations today, the entire Jewish populations were expelled. That's no coincidence.

What Israelis do know is that many wars have been waged against them with the intention to destroy them. What do you think would have happened if those Arab nations won in 48? 67? 73? Would all those Jews living there have been given a "Palestine" citizenship with full equal rights? No. They would have been eliminated or expelled from the river to the sea and become a footnote in history - just like all the expelled Jews are from other neighboring Arab nations who have lived there for centuries.

   Yes, the European Zionists and maybe the GB mandate in that area, if they lost in 1948 would mostly be expelled. But the indigenous population of Palestinians ther didn't have much training in military and had much guns, meanwhile the European Zionists received too mucb support and the rigbt wing received military support, won the war, and when GB wanted to divert some Zionists to other parts, the ultra far right Zionist group did attacks on GB soldiers and killed a couple. Decades later those who killed that officer are in the Likud party in charge.

   Once again, Jewish Nationalism is the problem that Albert einstein pointed out that it is adopting very similar values to German nationalists, nobody listened or ignored, continued and we end up with Israel/Palestine today.

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

too mucb support and the rigbt wing received military support

Consider the possibility that without that we wouldn't be here. This is not a "bad" thing and there are reasons behind it.

What caused IDF to built itself to be that powerful are survival forces. It needed to be a counter weight to 5 Arab countries have treatened us very seriously. 

Edited May 30 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

8 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@hundreth

   Yes, the European Zionists and maybe the GB mandate in that area, if they lost in 1948 would mostly be expelled. But the indigenous population of Palestinians ther didn't have much training in military and had much guns, meanwhile the European Zionists received too mucb support and the rigbt wing received military support, won the war, and when GB wanted to divert some Zionists to other parts, the ultra far right Zionist group did attacks on GB soldiers and killed a couple. Decades later those who killed that officer are in the Likud party in charge.

   Once again, Jewish Nationalism is the problem that Albert einstein pointed out that it is adopting very similar values to German nationalists, nobody listened or ignored, continued and we end up with Israel/Palestine today.

Those "European Zionists" you speak of were expelled from their homeland Israel centuries prior and now emigrated back to the region using legal means after suffering a literal holocaust. Throughout that entire time, they kept a very strong connection and faith in their religion which revolves around Israel. Not to mention the groups of Jews already living there prior to the European movement. Before the war, a third of the region was Jewish.

But even putting that aside, it sounds like you're fine with all the Jews being expelled from the region in 48 because you're pro Palestine and you picked your side and that's that?

I think the main thing Einstein lamented was not seeking out peace with their Arab neighbors. There's one small Jewish state the size of New Jersey, and 30 Muslim states - which you don't seem to have any issue with. But the Jewish state is on contested land, ok well then that's your issue. But let's not pretend it's about Jewish Nationalism. 

[Karmadhi]

26 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Those "European Zionists" you speak of were expelled from their homeland Israel centuries prior and now emigrated back to the region using legal means after suffering a literal holocaust. Throughout that entire time, they kept a very strong connection and faith in their religion which revolves around Israel.

They suffered a holocaust by Europeans. Why should Arabs have to pay for it? Give them a part of Germany and nobody would have complained. Arabs feel rightfully angry at having to pay for European devilry. 

Regarding Jews being expelled, perhaps it is true, however it is so long ago it does not justify them claiming the land now. By that logic Putin is right to claim all of Ukraine since 1000 years ago Ukraine and Russia were 1 entity (Kievan Rus). See how absurd the logic is?

26 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Before the war, a third of the region was Jewish.

Then the UN partition plan should have given them 1/3 of the land, not 60%. Also a lot of Jews were dumped there by the UK from 1910 onward which is why 1/3 of them were Jewish. But sure, give them 1/3 of the land, not 60%.

26 minutes ago, hundreth said:

But even putting that aside, it sounds like you're fine with all the Jews being expelled from the region in 48 because you're pro Palestine and you picked your side and that's that?

 

That was indeed wrong but it was a consequence of Israel ethnic cleansing. But it was wrong, it is not something to defend. 

26 minutes ago, hundreth said:

I think the main thing Einstein lamented was not seeking out peace with their Arab neighbors

It was against Jewish nationalism and all the devilry that would come from it. It seems he was right when I see Ben Gvir as a minister.

26 minutes ago, hundreth said:

There's one small Jewish state the size of New Jersey, and 30 Muslim states - which you don't seem to have any issue with.

That is irrelevant, the people who lived there and got kicked out or have lesser rights is still painful. A British guy that has never set foot on Israel but allegedly his ancestors were from there 2000 years ago, can claim Israeli passport and live there with all rights meanwhile a Palestinian whose ancestors have lived in that land for centuries cannot claim citizenship and have lesser rights.

Cant you see how absurd that is?

 

Edited May 30 by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

9 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

They suffered a holocaust by Europeans. Why should Arabs have to pay for it? Give them a part of Germany and nobody would have complained. Arabs feel rightfully angry at having to pay for European devilry. 

Regarding Jews being expelled, perhaps it is true, however it is so long ago it does not justify them claiming the land now. By that logic Putin is right to claim all of Ukraine since 1000 years ago Ukraine and Russia were 1 entity (Kievan Rus). See how absurd the logic is?

 

My point in saying that was that Jews migrated there legally and had strong ties and connections to the land. They didn't just randomly show up with intentions to harm Arabs. The region never had a distinct national entity since the days of biblical Israel, it was always under occupation from one empire or another. Post holocaust Jews had saw an opportunity to come back to their home land, and they took it. 

Quote

Then the UN partition plan should have given them 1/3 of the land, not 60%. Also a lot of Jews were dumped there by the UK from 1910 onward which is why 1/3 of them were Jewish. But sure, give them 1/3 of the land, not 60%.

Maybe you're right. Would the arabs have accepted such an offer? I don't know. It doesn't seem like it. There weren't really negotiations happening. They declared war. They lost. Then they did it again, and lost again, and again. So this is where we are now. At some point we just need to be practical and find a way to move forward. Jews are never going to stop fighting to be in Israel, and I doubt Palestinians will either. The two state solution seems to be the best path, but each day it becomes harder. I don't think re-litigating the past over and over will help us.

Quote

That is irrelevant, the people who lived there and got kicked out or have lesser rights is still painful. A British guy that has never set foot on Israel but allegedly his ancestors were from there 2000 years ago, can claim Israeli passport and live there with all rights meanwhile a Palestinian whose ancestors have lived in that land for centuries cannot claim citizenship and have lesser rights.

Cant you see how absurd that is?

Yes, I'm for Palestinian statehood. I just don't think we're going to reach this utopia where the entire region is called "Palestine" and they're all living there in harmony with equal rights. It's a pipe dream. Something like that can happen in the distant future, after they've been peaceful neighbors and generations slowly leave religion behind, but you can't force it on them externally.

The two states is the most practical path. Unfortunately that also seems elusive at the moment.

[Karmadhi]

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

My point in saying that was that Jews migrated there legally and had strong ties and connections to the land.

The land used to be part of the British mandate and it was theirs to do as they please. What do you mean by legally? Palestinians had no say in it.

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

They didn't just randomly show up with intentions to harm Arabs

They wanted their land because their bible idolizes it.

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

The region never had a distinct national entity since the days of biblical Israel, it was always under occupation from one empire or another.

LOL, it was called Palestine and it was all Arabs with muslims being the majority. Not European land. There is a speech by Hitler given in 1939 where he reads a letter written to him by FDR telling him "not to attack these countries". One of them is Palestine. So it was indeed a state, at least in the eyes of FDR. Now you can say the national identity was not there, sure. But that land had a name.

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Post holocaust Jews had saw an opportunity to come back to their home land, and they took it. 

Also Putin saw an opportunity to make Russia and Ukraine 1 again and he took it. Now we are also cool with Putin it seems.

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Maybe you're right. Would the arabs have accepted such an offer?

If they hadnt then it would have been more understandable I guess the Israeli position. But I wish the Arabs had not declared war at all and this issue to have been solved. I think Arabs were on the wrong to declare war and then Jews went too far with the Nakba and did countless horrible atrocities. I have heard testimonies of Israeli soldiers that fought at that time and they were very very disturbing. They seemed to find it funny. They openly said that great injustice was done to the Arabs at the time. So both sides have blame.

 

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Yes, I'm for Palestinian statehood. I just don't think we're going to reach this utopia where the entire region is called "Palestine" and they're all living there in harmony with equal rights. It's a pipe dream. Something like that can happen in the distant future, after they've been peaceful neighbors and generations slowly leave religion behind, but you can't force it on them externally.

 

I dont either. A two state solution is the best way forward. The issue is that Israel is blocking it at the moment. Spain Norway Ireland just recognized Palestine some days ago and Israel got mad and expelled ambassadors. Even 10 years ago when Sweden recognized Palestine, Israel got mad.

They do not want a proper Palestinian state.

That is the issue.

Edited May 30 by Karmadhi

[Loveeee]

[hundreth]

7 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

The land used to be part of the British mandate and it was theirs to do as they please. What do you mean by legally? Palestinians had no say in it.

LOL, it was called Palestine and it was all Arabs with muslims being the majority. Not European land. There is a speech by Hitler given in 1939 where he reads a letter written to him by FDR telling him "not to attack these countries". One of them is Palestine. So it was indeed a state, at least in the eyes of FDR. Now you can say the national identity was not there, sure. But that land had a name.

Legally in that Jews migrated there legally. What's hard to understand about that? They went through normal legal means to emigrate there, and purchased land legally. Would Arabs have allowed Jews in had it not been under British rule? I don't know. But that's not the fault of Jews.

Like I said, the region was under occupation for centuries. During that time, many groups came and went. Many "native" Palestinians you speak of also emigrated there in recent times. That's what happens in any land, people come and go. There's nothing inherently nefarious about Jewish emigration to a land. 

Quote

Also Putin saw an opportunity to make Russia and Ukraine 1 again and he took it. Now we are also cool with Putin it seems.

This one is pretty lazy, and I think you can do better. You're comparing Jews legally emigrating to an area after the holocaust, and then having the UN create a partition on occupied land to Putin forcefully starting a military operation. 

Quote

If they hadnt then it would have been more understandable I guess the Israeli position. But I wish the Arabs had not declared war at all and this issue to have been solved. I think Arabs were on the wrong to declare war and then Jews went too far with the Nakba and did countless horrible atrocities. I have heard testimonies of Israeli soldiers that fought at that time and they were very very disturbing. They seemed to find it funny. They openly said that great injustice was done to the Arabs at the time. So both sides have blame.

 

I dont either. A two state solution is the best way forward. The issue is that Israel is blocking it at the moment. Spain Norway Ireland just recognized Palestine some days ago and Israel got mad and expelled ambassadors. Even 10 years ago when Sweden recognized Palestine, Israel got mad.

They do not want a proper Palestinian state.

That is the issue.

Fair enough.

[Karmadhi]

3 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Legally in that Jews migrated there legally. What's hard to understand about that? They went through normal legal means to emigrate there, and purchased land legally

Ok, but was the land they bought 60% of Palestine? Also did the number of Jews that migrated there legally become 60% of the people that lived in the land? If yes, then I stand corrected. I am not against the partition plan but to me whenever you split land, it should be proportional to the people that live there. The majority gets most of the land. But that is my bias. 

Again, the issue I got is that a British guy can claim Israeli citizenship meanwhile a Palestinian cannot. That is a big issue.

4 minutes ago, hundreth said:

This one is pretty lazy, and I think you can do better. You're comparing Jews legally emigrating to an area after the holocaust, and then having the UN create a partition on occupied land to Putin forcefully starting a military operation. 

Quote

Legality is tricky because laws change with time. If by legal you mean the Palestinian government  (yes, they had passports even), approved it then it is fair game. If by legal you mean the UK said "these people will come here", then that is a red flag. Because UK has their own interest and agenda.

6 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Putin forcefully starting a military operation. 

Issue is the excuse they use for it. Israelis say "we are here because the land was ours 2000 years ago". Putin says "Ukraine and Russia were 1 entity 1000 years ago and therefore we claim it again".

[Nivsch]

34 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

The populated land of Palestinians today is I think similar in its surface area to the populated land Israelis are living it. Half of the map is an unpopulated desert.

West bank is huge mountainy zone what make its surface area to be much greater.

Furthermore the white zone includes both Jews and Arabs Israelis.

Edited May 30 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Consider the possibility that without that we wouldn't be here. This is not a "bad" thing and there are reasons behind it.

What caused IDF to built itself to be that powerful are survival forces. It needed to be a counter weight to 5 Arab countries have treatened us very seriously. 

   Yes, without the ultra far right European Zionists Palestine would have been a state sooner, and the indigenous population there that preexisted British rule in that area and European Zionists coming onto their lands they wouldn't have to experience such apartheid and oppression by them. Again look at Aljazeera documentary on the Al Nakba, all is laid bare there, the planning and strategizing and exploitation of the European Zionists onto Palestinians that were already there before. Look at how they planned like hyper nationalists wanting a greater Israel!

   What caused the IDF to be like that was support militarily from Great Britain before they had to give up on the Jewish state because they launched violent protests and coordinated attacks on British officers, yes this did happen, and handed them over to the USA then, which they signed in their recognition of a Jewish state-sorry I mean the state of Israel...

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

2 hours ago, hundreth said:

Those "European Zionists" you speak of were expelled from their homeland Israel centuries prior and now emigrated back to the region using legal means after suffering a literal holocaust. Throughout that entire time, they kept a very strong connection and faith in their religion which revolves around Israel. Not to mention the groups of Jews already living there prior to the European movement. Before the war, a third of the region was Jewish.

But even putting that aside, it sounds like you're fine with all the Jews being expelled from the region in 48 because you're pro Palestine and you picked your side and that's that?

I think the main thing Einstein lamented was not seeking out peace with their Arab neighbors. There's one small Jewish state the size of New Jersey, and 30 Muslim states - which you don't seem to have any issue with. But the Jewish state is on contested land, ok well then that's your issue. But let's not pretend it's about Jewish Nationalism. 

   Oh really? They kept a strong faith in their Judaism? Can you explain to me then, when Britain had to hand over the Jewish state to the USA, that most of the European Zionists in charge, according to Aljazeera's documentary on the Al Nakba, why did the Zionists not honor the Jewish holiday of Sabbath, instead opting to one day earlier coordinate the expulsion of Palestinian workers and other Palestinian citizens right before the USA signed into recognition of the Jewish state-the state of Israel? Why did they bend around that religious holiday for that? And is it considered a religious norm for those following Judaism to be extensively planning, and espionage of Palestinians and the quality of their lands? 

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

The land used to be part of the British mandate and it was theirs to do as they please. What do you mean by legally? Palestinians had no say in it.

They wanted their land because their bible idolizes it.

LOL, it was called Palestine and it was all Arabs with muslims being the majority. Not European land. There is a speech by Hitler given in 1939 where he reads a letter written to him by FDR telling him "not to attack these countries". One of them is Palestine. So it was indeed a state, at least in the eyes of FDR. Now you can say the national identity was not there, sure. But that land had a name.

Also Putin saw an opportunity to make Russia and Ukraine 1 again and he took it. Now we are also cool with Putin it seems.

If they hadnt then it would have been more understandable I guess the Israeli position. But I wish the Arabs had not declared war at all and this issue to have been solved. I think Arabs were on the wrong to declare war and then Jews went too far with the Nakba and did countless horrible atrocities. I have heard testimonies of Israeli soldiers that fought at that time and they were very very disturbing. They seemed to find it funny. They openly said that great injustice was done to the Arabs at the time. So both sides have blame.

 

I dont either. A two state solution is the best way forward. The issue is that Israel is blocking it at the moment. Spain Norway Ireland just recognized Palestine some days ago and Israel got mad and expelled ambassadors. Even 10 years ago when Sweden recognized Palestine, Israel got mad.

They do not want a proper Palestinian state.

That is the issue.

True.

True.

True.

True, but needs more explanation.

True, but British offered military training towards European Zionists they immigrated into Palestine, over the Arabs, and they also don't have many military weapons. Same later when the USA signed them in and supplied Israel with weapons and military training.

True.

True.

True,