Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Samsonov]

It's just horrible to see how this mechanism is working from the inside, every israeli personally knows someone that is somehow connected to the 7th of october horrors, and is now too scared to express himself in anyway is critical of israel. Fear is lurking in the streets, the whole nation is acting as a hot headed organism, it is intolerable.

The comparison to nazi germany is dark and accurate. Like the son of an abusing father that perpetuates the abusive pattern. This is generally the story of the jews, cycling between eras of abuse and being abused of, dating back to the slavery in Egypt, keep on feeling sorry for themselves and playing victim, by that justifying doing pretty much the same, I find many jews misunderstanding the current situation and accusing the global opposition as antisematic or racist, even accusing the hamas of racism, like this is the main motive for their hate and violence. The persecution of WWII has caused (I think) Israelis and jews ti become over-defensive about their jewish/israeli identities, becoming sort of paranoid about something similar ever happening again.
I personally think the globe should step in and take action, my naive solution is for countries all over the world to help by allowing israelis or jews to settle in, forget about the whole zionistic ideal and come back to another era of "galut" (exile) from israel, letting the arabs take hold of the territory...

and the muslim wave taking over europe and the world is another issue xDD raising major problems within democracy, also heavily felt here in Israel

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Einstein said:

"Should we be unable to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts with the Arabs, then we have learned absolutely nothing during our two thousand years of suffering and deserve all that will come to us."

He clearly saw the problems of right-wing nationalist Zionism. Because it shares the same problems as right-wing German nationalism.

The problems of right-wing stage Blue nationalism are obvious in every nation and part of the world where they are tried, regardless of the content of beliefs or the ethnic or religious group in power. Because it's a structural problem.

The fatal flaws of the right-wing Israeli nationalists is that they believe that they are immune to these structural problems just because they are Jews, and Jews are somehow special. But a right-wing Jew is not more special than right-wing German or American or Hindu.

   True.

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Samsonov said:

It's just horrible to see how this mechanism is working from the inside, every israeli personally knows someone that is somehow connected to the 7th of october horrors, and is now too scared to express himself in anyway is critical of israel. Fear is lurking in the streets, the whole nation is acting as a hot headed organism, it is intolerable.

The comparison to nazi germany is dark and accurate. Like the son of an abusing father that perpetuates the abusive pattern. This is generally the story of the jews, cycling between eras of abuse and being abused of, dating back to the slavery in Egypt, keep on feeling sorry for themselves and playing victim, by that justifying doing pretty much the same, I find many jews misunderstanding the current situation and accusing the global opposition as antisematic or racist, even accusing the hamas of racism, like this is the main motive for their hate and violence. The persecution of WWII has caused (I think) Israelis and jews ti become over-defensive about their jewish/israeli identities, becoming sort of paranoid about something similar ever happening again.
I personally think the globe should step in and take action, my naive solution is for countries all over the world to help by allowing israelis or jews to settle in, forget about the whole zionistic ideal and come back to another era of "galut" (exile) from israel, letting the arabs take hold of the territory...

and the muslim wave taking over europe and the world is another issue xDD raising major problems within democracy, also heavily felt here in Israel

Wait, are you Israeli?

[Merkabah Star]

Biden is a joke, i hope he loses 24, big time.

Quote

The Biden administration has said recent Israeli operations and attacks in Gaza’s southern city of Rafah do not constitute a major ground operation that crosses any US red lines, and that it is also closely monitoring a probe into Sunday’s deadly strike on a tent camp it called “tragic”.

Speaking after Israeli tanks were seen near al-Awda mosque, a landmark in central Rafah, national security council spokesperson John Kirby told reporters that the US was not turning a “blind eye” to the plight of Palestinian civilians.

“The Israelis have said this is a tragic mistake,” Kirby said, referring to the airstrike and fire in an area crowded with refugee tents that Gaza health authorities said killed at least 45 people on Sunday.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/29/white-house-israel-rafah-red-line

 

[Merkabah Star]

Netanyahu’s deflection and Biden’s complicity in Israel’s invasion of Rafah present a stark contrast to the humanitarian principles they claim to uphold.

 

 

[Samsonov]

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Wait, are you Israeli?

Yes

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Samsonov said:

Yes

I have some questions to ask you, if you do not mind. I am really curious.

First, what is the public opinion of the war, especially now. What do Israelis think about the countless war crimes they are accused of and especially for the footage that comes out of Gaza of dead kids.

Secondly, is the desire for revenge still there or is it mostly gone after 7 months of war. I could imagine at the beginning it was very high.

Lastly and most importantly, why do I see so many videos of soldiers being happy about destroying Gaza, killing people etc, including also political analyst etc. How does an IDF person rationalize it when they snipe a child (I saw footage of a dead kid who had been sniped in his head).

This is an educated society with a functioning democracy and wealth. How can they degrate into such animalistic type behavior? Especially when most of them have not been personally affected by the Hamas attacks. Even if they have, it is not like with Hamas fighters who many were orphans (much higher degree of being impacted by the enemy).

USA had terrorist attacks happen to it, so did UK, France and Spain. But never have I seen such hatred and collective moral degradation of a whole first world rich educated society.

I am really curious to understand.

Edited May 29 by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I have some questions to ask you, if you do not mind. I am really curious.

First, what is the public opinion of the war, especially now. What do Israelis think about the countless war crimes they are accused of and especially for the footage that comes out of Gaza of dead kids.

Secondly, is the desire for revenge still there or is it mostly gone after 7 months of war. I could imagine at the beginning it was very high.

Lastly and most importantly, why do I see so many videos of soldiers being happy about destroying Gaza, killing people etc, including also political analyst etc. How does an IDF person rationalize it when they snipe a child (I saw footage of a dead kid who had been sniped in his head).

This is an educated society with a functioning democracy and wealth. How can they degrate into such animalistic type behavior? Especially when most of them have not been personally affected by the Hamas attacks. Even if they have, it is not like with Hamas fighters who many were orphans (much higher degree of being impacted by the enemy).

USA had terrorist attacks happen to it, so did UK, France and Spain. But never have I seen such hatred and collective moral degradation of a whole first world rich educated society.

I am really curious to understand.

I don't live in Israel now but I grew up in an Israeli household and understand where a lot of this comes from.

First, the idea that most of them haven't been personally affected is wrong. Everyone knows someone who was killed or kidnapped on Oct 7th. More than that, everyone has a loved one currently serving. It is a very small country. 

We grew up with the idea that the Palestinians want us all wiped out, from "the river to the sea" as they say. Their actions have not betrayed those words. I'm not saying Israel acted properly either, but the Palestinians have mostly made decisions which indicate they would like us all wiped off the face of the planet. Be it the charter, the attacks, and especially the wars where the broader arab world simultaneously attacked Israel with the intent to destroy them.

There were 6 of these wars. SIX. They happened in the last 75 years. Most of our parents and grandparents served in these wars, the country is full of military veterans with war stories. Our leaders are war heroes. Israel's whole ethos revolves around survival.

There is an understanding that the Palestinians and much of the broader Arab world wants Jews exterminated. And for that reason, they are having trouble empathizing with thousands of Palestinian civilians dying and living in hellish conditions.

That's the big problem, this undercurrent that it's fine if they die if they want us dead. It becomes a toxic emotional response. Not everyone thinks this way, there is also a religious component. Both sides have a religious component which is underemphasized in the West. It's the same reason we frame Hamas and the Oct 7th attacks as an inevitability. These Palestinians have lived in horrible conditions, and so we say that this is a consequence.

Likewise, Israelis have lived through 75 years of war in which the intention was to eliminate them, and the latest attack was a direct confirmation of that. 

Neither side believes the other tolerates their existence. 

[Karmadhi]

@hundreth Thank you a lot for your explanation.

I just find it hard to understand when Israelis say "Babies are terrorists" and stuff like that.

I can understand that adults or teenagers want you dead, but when you call a 3 year old terrorist, I cannot understand that.

A 2 year old does not know anything.

The rest was spot on, thank you.

[hundreth]

4 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@hundreth Thank you a lot for your explanation.

I just find it hard to understand when Israelis say "Babies are terrorists" and stuff like that.

I can understand that adults or teenagers want you dead, but when you call a 3 year old terrorist, I cannot understand that.

A 2 year old does not know anything.

The rest was spot on, thank you.

I don't know anyone who says "babies are terrorists."

What I do hear is that Hamas uses human shields, and so these outcomes are expected and so the blame rests on Hamas.

I don't agree with the conclusion. Hamas does use human shields by operating in civilian infra. However, it doesn't absolve us of not using enough care and discretion to avoid civilian casualties. 

I also hear that teenagers are given weapons and instructed to go into combat, resulting in additional death of children. I think this is a valid criticism. Unfortunately all of these behaviors are to be expected, because if Hamas were to operate like a normal military they would be wiped out in a week. 

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

42 minutes ago, hundreth said:

I don't know anyone who says "babies are terrorists."

What I do hear is that Hamas uses human shields, and so these outcomes are expected and so the blame rests on Hamas.

I don't agree with the conclusion. Hamas does use human shields by operating in civilian infra. However, it doesn't absolve us of not using enough care and discretion to avoid civilian casualties. 

I also hear that teenagers are given weapons and instructed to go into combat, resulting in additional death of children. I think this is a valid criticism. Unfortunately all of these behaviors are to be expected, because if Hamas were to operate like a normal military they would be wiped out in a week. 

   So HAMMA using human shields and hostages for political leverage is bad. But when Israel's Likud Party does the same, use hostages as political leverage, and uses the Israeli hostages as an excuse to further bomb 70% plus of Gaza, that's ok?

[Danioover9000]

@Merkabah Star

12 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

Netanyahu’s deflection and Biden’s complicity in Israel’s invasion of Rafah present a stark contrast to the humanitarian principles they claim to uphold.

 

 

   Further proof of how Israel, IDF, and the Likud party are so morally superior after all, makes sense with them being the chosen?

Edited May 29 by Danioover9000

[Danioover9000]

   Just to show you what the French colonials and the USA government are capable of:

 

[hundreth]

13 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@hundreth

   So HAMMA using human shields and hostages for political leverage is bad. But when Israel's Likud Party does the same, use hostages as political leverage, and uses the Israeli hostages as an excuse to further bomb 70% plus of Gaza, that's ok?

Where did I say that?

I don't know why you feel the need to constantly make strawman boogeymen out of some of us. Try to actually read what we're writing.

I also want to add that your framing of the situation is wrong anyways. Israel doesn't need the hostages to justify taking out Hamas. The attack and their stated intention of doing it again is enough.

The hostages are actually a large thorn in the side of the far right Likud leadership. Most of the internal dissent from within Israel is centered around our objectives NOT being primarily about the hostages.

Edited May 29 by hundreth

[Nivsch]

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

23 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Where did I say that?

I don't know why you feel the need to constantly make strawman boogeymen out of some of us. Try to actually read what we're writing.

I also want to add that your framing of the situation is wrong anyways. Israel doesn't need the hostages to justify taking out Hamas. The attack and their stated intention of doing it again is enough.

The hostages are actually a large thorn in the side of the far right Likud leadership. Most of the internal dissent from within Israel is centered around our objectives NOT being primarily about the hostages.

   A long time ago...

   A fallacy to assume I always make straw mans of your position or your best friends @Vrubel, @Heaven, @Nivsch, and @Lila9. I have argued fairly accurately against your Zionist talking points so far...

   What is wrong with my framing of this situation? That Israel's Likud party been oppressing and subjugating Gaza and West Bank under the iron dome? Full lock down by land, sea and air? For 80 plus years since the Al Nakba holding Palestinians as hostages? I'm not talking about Oct 7 when that's a mere drop in the ocean to the horrific oppression done by the right wing Zionists onto Palestinians for decades.

   A large thorn on the side of the Likud party? Meaning if Israeli hostages were not there, then they'd happily destroy all of Gaza's buildings to the ground and deport most Gazans elsewhere huh?

[hundreth]

12 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@hundreth

   A long time ago... 

Lol. Right.

Quote

 What is wrong with my framing of this situation? That Israel's Likud party been oppressing and subjugating Gaza and West Bank under the iron dome? Full lock down by land, sea and air? For 80 plus years since the Al Nakba holding Palestinians as hostages? I'm not talking about Oct 7 when that's a mere drop in the ocean to the horrific oppression done by the right wing Zionists onto Palestinians for decades.

What are you talking about? We're specifically talking about using the hostages as an excuse and you went back into your generic bag of talking points. 

Quote

A large thorn on the side of the Likud party? Meaning if Israeli hostages were not there, then they'd happily destroy all of Gaza's buildings to the ground and deport most Gazans elsewhere huh?

They would do exactly what they're doing now. As I said, the hostages pretty much have nothing to do with their objectives at the moment. That's a big part of the problem.

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

29 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Lol. Right.

What are you talking about? We're specifically talking about using the hostages as an excuse and you went back into your generic bag of talking points. 

They would do exactly what they're doing now. As I said, the hostages pretty much have nothing to do with their objectives at the moment. That's a big part of the problem.

   For the hundredth time, This situation is mostly Israel's Likud Party's fault for mistreating the Palestinians for 80 years like this. They are destroying too many infrastructure in Gaza, promising chances for many other terrorist groups to happen again. All this forces the Palestinians to vote in HAMMAs, and they forced them into being HAMMA's hostages, if only IDF and the Likud party recognized them as a state and provided social infrastructure and a small military and police force. All that would've allowed the Palestinians to not be captured by HAMMAs radicalization.

   And both sides are using the hostages for their aims.

Edited May 29 by Danioover9000

[hundreth]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@hundreth

   For the hundredth time, This situation is mostly Israel's Likud Party's fault for mistreating the Palestinians for 80 years like this. They are destroying too many infrastructure in Gaza, promising chances for many other terrorist groups to happen again. All this forces the Palestinians to vote in HAMMAs, and they forced them into being HAMMA's hostages, if only IDF and the Likud party recognized them as a state and provided social infrastructure and a small military and police force. All that would've allowed the Palestinians to not be captured by HAMMAs radicalization.

   And both sides are using the hostages for their aims.

Back to your talking points. Okay, you're speaking past me. What's even the point of quoting me? Just copy / paste your talking points over and over lol. That's why you're writing "for the hundredth" time - you're retreading ground that doesn't have anything directly to do with what we were talking about. 

I'm here to have a conversation, which I was able to do with others here. This isn't a conversation. It's just you ranting.

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

Back to your talking points. Okay, you're speaking past me. What's even the point of quoting me? Just copy / paste your talking points over and over lol. That's why you're writing "for the hundredth" time - you're retreading ground that doesn't have anything directly to do with what we were talking about. 

I'm here to have a conversation, which I was able to do with others here. This isn't a conversation. It's just you ranting.

   How am I ranting and retreading ground?