Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

Im surprised there aren’t sanctions on Israel yet. 

 

Me too, especially from the EU

[Merkabah Star]

10 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Me too, especially from the EU

I guess it will just feed the victim narrative. 

[BlueOak]

Israel - Egypt clash on the border.

I've heard reports of 4 dead but its unconfirmed.

Edited May 28 by BlueOak

[Nivsch]

50 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nivsch

   You claim you don't like Netanyahu, yet you still try to defend Zionism and the Likud party by straw manning the ICJ court???

This isn't about the court but the prosecutor. Not to defend Netanyahu but to come out against baseless accusations or strechings that many of them sounds to me more as far reaching fantasies and wishes of the mind than the much moderate reality.

Edited May 28 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

58 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

This isn't about the court but the prosecutor. Not to defend Netanyahu but to come out against baseless accusations or strechings that many of them sounds to me more as far reaching fantasies and wishes of the mind than the much moderate reality.

 The much moderate reality of settlement expansion and Zionism eating up Palestine?

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Hatfort said:

They bombed a refugee camp of tents that the IDF told them it was safe to be. Many died in the explosion, many died burned alive because the fire spread fast in the tents. Most of them women, including pregnant and children. and It's not the first one, but there's very graphic footage of this one, so it got more repercussions. Why the fuck did they tell them that place was safe and then killed them?

This is how the IDF has been operating, they are targeting and killing innocents on purpose. There's the mass grave beside the hospital with people handcuffed and shot dead. There's the six-year-old girl who called from a car surrounded by her dead family asking for help, Palestinians informed the IDF they were going to rescue her, and then they killed the girl and the two medics who volunteered to go and save her. What the fuck was that? There are reports of Palestinians who say how their clearly non-combatant family members have been shot. They have shot at hungry civilians asking for flour to eat. They bombed vehicles full of people that were moving from their homes to the South because they told them that would be safe. Now they attacked Rafah in the South, which was supposed to be a red line for Egypt and even the US, because they don't want to leave oven one spot in Gaza standing.

This is a genocide, you don't need the perpetrators admitting they are doing it with this exact word, although they have referenced genocidal passages, so there's that. Of course, they would prefer if they had left to Egypt, but since that's not happening, it's happening what we are seeing. The objective is the same, to get the land for themselves, and make it Israel, because they believe it belongs to them, some because of the Bible, others because they have been educated in the Zionist ideology, whether they are religious or not. There are so many disturbing images that the IDF soldiers take of themselves destroying buildings, they are claiming the land with the Torah in hand, they are looting the valuables they find, and disrespecting previous inhabitants belongings. The soldiers don't see Palestinians as their own, in fact they see them as their enemy, because it's clear in the long run they will never agree to live as second-class citizens whose lives don't matter, as they shouldn't.

It doesn't hold up that they are just targeting Hamas and rescuing the hostages for many reasons. They destroyed so much infrastructure necessary to live, homes, hospitals, and everything. They are not allowing necessities like water, food, and medicines, so starvation is suffered by the civilians. The Israelis are stopping trucks with food, that's disgusting to new levels never seen before. So it's the government, the army, and the civilians, they are on the same page. They are on it and they will continue as much as they are allowed to.

Bumping this well written comment. We forget what has occurred when countless atrocities blur together, this post acts like a reminder. How many ‘incidents’ have happened to which the perpetrator (Israel) say they will investigate it only to be forgotten about and on to the next atrocity we go.

Regarding the debate on whether this is genocide or not:

On 27/05/2024 at 10:13 AM, zazen said:

When discussing whether a situation constitutes the worst or best case of a ‘negative’ definition, it should still be remembered that the situation still falls within a negative definition.

While Palestinians haven’t been culled en masse which is the extreme end of the definition of genocide (mass scale death with intent behind it) - they have been on the receiving end of mass scale dispossession and destruction making their land un-livable. To be annoyingly particular and go by the definition of genocide it states destruction and not just death within its definition - destroying hospitals, fertile land with crops, denying and restricting aid seem to fit close enough to that.

Regardless of death, destruction and dispossession - even if we were to say no intent was involved in any of this: Moral outrage can still be expected - not from the intent for mass death and destruction, but the lack of intent to minimize mass scale death and destruction in pursuit of the “enemy”.  The neglect of the many in harms way when going after the few who hurt you.

While genocide meh be debated due to lack of scale / intent what can’t be is the disproportionate response for which we need a new word : neglecticide - when the pursuit of a few enemies steamrolls over countless civilians causing mass scale collateral destruction and dispossession, a neglect for human life on steroids.

 

Edited May 28 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Bombing everything on sight

But here you are exaggerating. Israelis are nowhere close to bombing everything in sight. They could bomb every house in Gaza but they do not.

Yes, they bomb excessively, but your characterization of it is very exaggerated.

You don't need to exaggerate in order to make your moral case. Adding falsehood to it doesn't help your moral case. The straight truth should suffice.

Edited May 28 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But here you are exaggerating. Israelis are nowhere close to bombing everything in sight. They could bomb every house in Gaza but they do not.

Yes, they bomb excessively, but your characterization of it is very exaggerated.

It is not exaggerating when you have 70%+ of all buildings in Gaza destroyed (and the war is not done).

I am not saying they do it in 1 night, they do it slowly over time but in the end everything is gone.

It is like a death by 1000 small cuts, it adds up on time.

If you see the ruins of Gaza it does not look much different from cities like Dresden.

I never claimed that they do it in 1 single night, but they are indeed bombing everything at Gaza gradually over time.

1 block today, 1 block tomorrow, 1 school today, 1 university the next week.

All universities in Gaza are destroyed, almost all the schools, most hospitals have been bombed.

This is what I meant.

Edited May 28 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

It is not exaggerating when you have 70%+ of all buildings in Gaza destroyed

What is the actually statistic of the percentage of buildings in Gaza destroyed?

A source would be nice.

[lina]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That doesn't stop Hamas

as @Karmadhimentioned bombing everywhere is not much different than killing everyone in sight, it just a more privileged type of violence and I would say even more dangerous because it disconnects the person from the act of killing and normalizes it. 

BTW they're still continuing with bombing the tents and killed another 20 civilians regardless of the global outcry. 

https://x.com/EyeonPalestine/status/1795450967602643029

https://x.com/hzomlot/status/1795452061028319554

https://x.com/QudsNen/status/1795435454478549305

Furthermore the cartoonishly evil image of Hamas in the media, things like the beheadings, systematic mass rape or even killing anyone in sight all have been proven to be myths to gain global support for the war. They're evil for other reasons but not for their portrayed image in the media. When speaking about a group like ISIS you can use the example you mentioned that they're extremely barbaric and would kill anyone in sight. Hamas on the other hand did kill some people and tried to get hostages in order to achieve a political goal, but not merely out of a bloodlust or to establish dominance like ISIS would do for ex. 

Edited May 28 by lina

[lina]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What is the actually statistic of the percentage of buildings in Gaza destroyed?

A source would be nice.

Most Gazans now lost their homes and are living in tents.

 https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/some-70-of-gaza-homes-damaged-or-destroyed-wall-street-journal-analysis/ 

That report was 5 months ago I wonder what's left of Gaza at the moment. 

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura

Here is written 35%:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/satellite-images-show-35-gazas-building-destroyed-un-says-2024-03-21/

Here 50% damaged or destroyed. But a small damage also counts as 1 house? how it is being counted?

https://www.axios.com/2024/04/07/gaza-infrastructure-land-damage-israel-six-months-war

I will add another one shows it is more (50-61%) but again damaged or destroyed:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006607

It is not unrealistic to say a bomb to 1 house causes indirect some damage to 10 more unintentionally.

Edited May 28 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

50% is pretty aweful. I wasn't aware the number was so high.

Gaza basically has no hope for any kind of prosperity or success now. It will be decades of miserable filthy poverty, which will breed thousands of terrorists.

Edited May 28 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What is the actually statistic of the percentage of buildings in Gaza destroyed?

A source would be nice.

Sure, this is the most recent I could find. 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/7/israels-war-on-gaza-six-relentless-months-of-death-and-destruction

It says 62% of all buildings in Gaza have been damaged or destroyed or 290.000 housing units leaving more than a million people homeless.

Eight of every 10 schools in Gaza are damaged or destroyed, according to UNICEF. As many as 625,000 students have no access to education.

All hospitals have suffered critical damage, with only 10 out of 36 able to function partially but they are increasingly overburdened.

Note, this is from April 7th, so almost 2 months ago. 

Considering that this was before Rafah which now is being daily bombed the current values are higher.

Also I saw they are bombing the north again due to Hamas regrouping there.

 

[Karmadhi]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Gaza basically has no hope for any kind of prosperity or success now. It will be decades of miserable filthy poverty, which will breed thousands of terrorists.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/rebuilding-bombed-gaza-homes-may-take-80-years-un-says-2024-05-02/

 

[lina]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

50% is pretty aweful. I wasn't aware the number was so high.

Gaza basically has no hope for any kind of prosperity or success now. It will be decades of miserable filthy poverty, which will breed thousands of terrorists.

The point is the ethnic cleansing or at least largely decrease the number if its population, so slowly it would diminish on it's own and Gazans choose to leave willingly. 

Edited May 28 by lina

[Leo Gura]

Yeah, they basically turned Gaza into an unlivable hell for the next few decades.

Sad.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, lina said:

Furthermore the cartoonishly evil image of Hamas in the media, things like the beheadings, systematic mass rape or even killing anyone in sight all have been proven to be myths to gain global support for the war

If the actions of hamas are a myth in your opinion then how I am as an Israeli suppose to relate to all the other claims you make?

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, they basically turned Gaza into an unlivable hell for the next few decades.

Sad.

No doubt the damage is greatly in excess to what it could be.

The question is what % of the houses have some damage? because a big % of them can have still a mild damage and be counted in the same group of the "damaged and destroyed".

Because again every direct bomb to 1 home will likely damage also the surrounding buildings that are far more in quantity. The explosions are huge.

Especially in the perhaps most dense place in the world.

Edited May 28 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

34 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

But a small damage also counts as 1 house? how it is being counted?

I am not an expert but I think "destroyed" means either if the actual building is gone (razed to the ground as people say) or damaged beyond repair so it has to be demolished.

"Damaged" means that the building is most likely no longer usable by people to live in (or conduct human activities) but it can still be repaired.

Note that repairing a building costs money so sometimes it is actually cheaper to just demolish it and build a new one. It depends on the type of building. For example in Germany after WW2 it was cheaper to demolish the beautiful European style buildings that were damaged and instead build some cheap ugly ones Soviet style. Reconstruction of that type of building takes a long time and money since they have a lot of details in them.

In Gaza I think its cheap buildings so perhaps it might be feasible to repair some, but it still has a cost and the place is now basically broke. I think the aid will go first to repair essential stuff like hospitals, schools, etc which are gone now.

 

Edited May 28 by Karmadhi