Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Nivsch]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A beheaded baby is not genocide, it is a war crime or collateral damage.

Genocide is not any specific low level attrocity, it is a high level intention.

Don't forget that if you bomb the house of a Hamas leader and his family is inside with him, like the Bin Laden house, you could end up with some blown up babies. That's how a war on terrorism works. Terrorist houses are targetted imprecisely.

I'm not saying that was necessarily the case here, but just because you see a blown up baby you cannot assume it wasn't connected to Hamas. It could have been.

You have to be careful and accurate in how you frame these things because its easy to get outraged over dead babies. But all war has collateral damage and this needs to be kept in mind to maintain intellectual honesty.

I appreciate how you displayed the things in this message that feels to me as decent.

Someone I know is operating in Gaza right now and I really feel concern for him, when the operation now in Rafah seems to me as more of a trial to soften somehow hamas in the negotiation, rather than a genuine part of a smart strategic plan to establish a new pragmatic Arab rule in Gaza.

As long as our government isn't being replaced, I prefer (anyway I prefer but let alone now) he won't risk himself and get out. I just don't trust the people who send him to the field.

Edited May 27 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

23 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Someone I know is operating in Gaza right now and I really feel concern for him, when the operation now in Rafah seems to me as more of a trial to soften somehow hamas in the negotiation, rather than a genuine part of a smart strategic plan to establish a new pragmatic Arab rule in Gaza.

 

In which part of Gaza? What has he said about Hamas regrouping and attacking in the North, even though it was considered "cleared".

Also, what does he say about the countless videos online showing IDF people mocking the destruction in Gaza

[Nivsch]

21 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

In which part of Gaza? What has he said about Hamas regrouping and attacking in the North, even though it was considered "cleared".

Also, what does he say about the countless videos online showing IDF people mocking the destruction in Gaza

Don't attack him he is a really good guy 😅

Edited May 27 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

12 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Don't attack him he is a really good guy 😅

I am not attacking him personally. I do not know this guy.

I am asking you, since he is there what does he think about the stuff I mentioned above?

Since he might be surrounded by the people that are doing those horrible stuff.

Would be interesting to see the POV of someone in there from the IDF side.

If he is a good person, then that makes it even more interesting.

[Nivsch]

9 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Since he might be surrounded by the people that are doing those horrible stuff.

You are describing this like the problematic actors were the "majority", but the reverse is true.

Edited May 27 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

17 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

You are describing this like the problematic actors were the "majority", but the reverse is true.

Just like Israelis describe Palestinians being "terrorists that engage in violence" are the majority, but the reverse is true.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I did not see US carpet bomb the whole town where Osama has hiding.

The US has bombed many a house. You don't want to make that argument.

Quote

They launched a very precise military operation with soldiers that shot him personally. Israel could have done the same here. Why didnt they?

Only because he was such a VIP. They wanted him alive. And in that process they killed several of his family members.

Are you okay with killiing his children to kill Bin Laden?

Edited May 27 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The US has bombed many a house. You don't want to make that argument.

Quote

I have not seen this type of horrible footage nor such a high death toll in such a short time. Neither a famine. US has indeed supported the Saudi made famine in Yemen but did not itself cause it. Even here they are pushing for more aid to come in. Israel is the one being defiant.

United States invasion of Afghanistan - Wikipedia

This is the US direct response to 9/11. Around 2000 civilians dead, 15 times less than here.

War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) - Wikipedia

This is the whole war which lasted 20 years. In 7 months in Gaza we have close to 30.000 civilians dead, here in 20 years we have 46.000 from ALL sides. You cannot compare. And US is not the most angelic person anyway.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Are you okay with killiing his children to kill Bin Laden?

Of course not. Especially if they were minors. If they were adults and directly aided him then they are legit targets. If they were 8 year old boys then it is horrible since they are innocent. But I saw they were adults so it is not the same as killing a baby.

Issue here is scale. Israel killed close to 80 people to take out 1 senior Hamas guy in November. Here they killed more than 40 to take out 2 Hamas guys. The ratios are crazy. And these are not even the top top Hamas people. Imagine if Hamas had 1 supreme leader like Osama was. They would not hestitate to kill 1000 civilians to get him. Meanwhile US killed around 5 civilians to get Osama. Israel has been reported to permit up to 20 civilians being killed to take out 1 standard Hamas operator. For senior members, up to 100 civilians were ok to be killed with him.

Totally different ball game.

 

Edited May 27 by Karmadhi

[lina]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You have to be careful and accurate in how you frame these things because its easy to get outraged over dead babies. But all war has collateral damage and this needs to be kept in mind to maintain intellectual honesty.

The problem is not just the dead baby, a group of 2 million people who lost everything in life has been trapped like rats for almost 8 months living under the constant fear of being blown up any minute, that's just inhumane and cannot be justified whether it achieves getting rid of Hamas or not, A simple minded person would realize such actions will generate another Hamas within a decade. Also, the intention here doesn't even matter, what matters is the results. The results are mass civilian death and a radicalization of an entire population that will not only be angry towards Israelis, but against the whole world and anyone who stood by silent. 

I understand the importance in not being one-sided or criticizing too much. I have been working on that for a while, but when things pass a certain point I feel like neutrality becomes passivity. 

9 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Keep fantasize, illusionize, generalize and do fake symmetries.

That's not only my opinion. 

Edited May 27 by lina

[Leo Gura]

46 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I have not seen this type of horrible footage nor such a high death toll in such a short time. Neither a famine. US has indeed supported the Saudi made famine in Yemen but did not itself cause it. Even here they are pushing for more aid to come in. Israel is the one being defiant.

United States invasion of Afghanistan - Wikipedia

This is the US direct response to 9/11. Around 2000 civilians dead, 15 times less than here.

War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) - Wikipedia

This is the whole war which lasted 20 years. In 7 months in Gaza we have close to 30.000 civilians dead, here in 20 years we have 46.000 from ALL sides. You cannot compare. And US is not the most angelic person anyway.

Of course not. Especially if they were minors. If they were adults and directly aided him then they are legit targets. If they were 8 year old boys then it is horrible since they are innocent. But I saw they were adults so it is not the same as killing a baby.

Issue here is scale. Israel killed close to 80 people to take out 1 senior Hamas guy in November. Here they killed more than 40 to take out 2 Hamas guys. The ratios are crazy. And these are not even the top top Hamas people. Imagine if Hamas had 1 supreme leader like Osama was. They would not hestitate to kill 1000 civilians to get him. Meanwhile US killed around 5 civilians to get Osama. Israel has been reported to permit up to 20 civilians being killed to take out 1 standard Hamas operator. For senior members, up to 100 civilians were ok to be killed with him.

Totally different ball game.

I wasn't comparing the scale of the US drone strikes with this Irsaeli war. Mostly just comparing the individual cases of the dead babies. In Afghanistan before the US pulled out they accidentally bombed a whole Afghan family house and killed like a dozen family members for no good reason. That kind of stuff happens in war.

I agree that the scale of civilian deaths in Gaza is bad. But also the US has a much more professional military.

Of course the civilian deaths are needlessly excessive here.

But what if the only way to kill Bin Laden was to bomb his house which would also kill his young children? Would you pull the trigger?

Edited May 27 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

@Karmadhi The way you laid out those numbers shows a stark difference not only in scale, but in the time scale these deaths have occurred within. Killing 1% of a population over 20 years paints a different picture to doing the same within 6 months.

The speed and scale of the brutality is matched only by the swiftness and scale of the condemnation of Israel's actions.

 

[Leo Gura]

Don't forget to factor in population density. Gaza has a unique density problem. It would be a lot easier if Gaza was the size of a country rather than a city.

Edited May 27 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

1 hour ago, lina said:

The problem is not just the dead baby, a group of 2 million people who lost everything in life has been trapped like rats for almost 8 months living under the constant fear of being blown up any minute, that's just inhumane and cannot be justified whether it achieves getting rid of Hamas or not, A simple minded person would realize such actions will generate another Hamas within a decade. Also, the intention here doesn't even matter, what matters is the results. The results are mass civilian death and a radicalization of an entire population that will not only be angry towards Israelis, but against the whole world and anyone who stood by silent. 

I was understand the importance in not being one-sided or criticizing too much. I have been working on that for a while, but when things pass a certain point I feel like neutrality becomes passivity. 

That's not only my opinion. 

This hits  the nail on the head. 

It isn’t just the death but the displacement, dispossession and destruction of the little these people had. To add insult to injury they are then starved and attacked in places they sought refuge.  And this isn’t done to 100 people or a 1000 but up to 2 million.

It also says nothing of what they have suffered the past decades and what the young who haven’t lived for barely 2 have been born into.

Edited May 27 by zazen

[Nivsch]

[Inliytened1]

Netanyahu has acknowledged it was not Israel's intention to kill innocent civilians.  This particular attack was indeed a tragic miscalculation    I admit that Israel has gone too far here - I think they will start reeling it in now finally and curbing the collateral damage.   

[Yimpa]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

Netanyahu has acknowledged it was not Israel's intention to kill innocent civilians.

Then whose intention is it? Surely it can’t be no one… 

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Can you acknowledge the 50% part of responsibility the other side has too to how all that conflict has unfolded during the decades?

I can but think that framing them as equally responsible overlooks the power asymmetry between a technologically advanced occupying force, backed by a global superpower with vast diplomatic, financial, and military support, and a besieged population lacking all the above.

For 50% of the responsibility one side seems to be causing at least 80% of the suffering if not more.

[Inliytened1]

9 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Then whose intention is it? Surely it can’t be no one… 

Have you ever gotten emotional and carried away when you think something you love or loved is being threatened?  Emotion takes over and rationality gets left by the wayside at least for a moment.  This is what I think happened with this war.  Israel has overreacted and in doing so has destroyed a lot of innocent people.  I get that.  But now is the time for them to take a big step back.  I know non-zionists will say that time has long passed...but it is what it is.   For the record beheading babies - come on...Israel may be a lot of things but If this turned out true then I will be truly heartbroken.   War can change a person- but you can't become a monster - it can only be revealed that you always were a monster.   And I refuse to believe that.

Edited May 27 by Inliytened1

[Yimpa]

@Inliytened1 beautifully written. Thank you for sharing your emotions with God 

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Netanyahu has acknowledged it was not Israel's intention to kill innocent civilians.  This particular attack was indeed a tragic miscalculation    I admit that Israel has gone too far here - I think they will start reeling it in now finally and curbing the collateral damage.   

Hamas also said it was not their aim to kill civilians on October 7th.

Every leader will say that, it is normal.

If you trust Bibi might as well trust this guy too.

Bottom line is that you see  people's actions not words.

15.000 kids dead is action.