Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Hatfort]

Israel wants Gaza for themselves, so what they are doing is as much harm as the international community lets them get away with, which is a lot, sadly. All hospitals gone, basic supplies restricted, medics, aid workers and journalists targeted, more than half of the buildings gone, and civilians killed by thousands.

The thing is, the IDF is effective in destroying buildings from the air and killing unarmed civilians, but not so much finishing with Hamas, who has weapons. The armed resistance is holding better than everyone thought and the IDF just left the North, Hamas is in control in one day. Hamas adapted well to fight surrounded by ruins, surfacing from the tunnels when they want, and they are able to cause quite harm to the IDF.

Now they are destroying Rafah, because that's the only thing they can do, which is a shame. They want Gaza as unlivable as possible for Palestinians, that's the vision of Netanyahu, and his country is following him into this madness.

[Nivsch]

@Hatfort hamas and the fundamentalist sectors who support him are responsible for at least 50% of the consequences due to his obvious strategics and they as who let him use their schools, homes, mosques and hospitals as his bases and storages.

The fact that Israel just fell into the trap US or Europe coalition fell into before and killed even more civilians in total, doesn't disturb many to draw artificially the picture as Israel was the only "bad" guy, but that is exactly why this double standart does not impress me nor any other Israeli here who know maybe better than you think how to differentiate between fair and hypocrite critisism.

Edited May 17 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

hamas and the fundamentalist sectors who support him are responsible for at least 50% of the consequences due to his obvious strategics and they as who let him use their schools, homes (part of), mosques, hospital as his bases and garages.

The fact that Israel just fell into the trap US or Europe coalition fell into before and killed even more civilians, doesn't disturb you from drawing artificially to show only Israel as the "bad" guy, but that is exactly why this double standard does not impress me nor any other Israeli here who know maybe better than you think how to differentiate between fair and hypoctire critisism.

‘The machine did it coldly’: Israel used AI to identify 37,000 Hamas targets | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

Read this before making claims like that.

[hundreth]

19 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

Oh yes, it’s western bots making Israel look bad. Sure..

Of course Israel's leadership is largely at fault for how this played out...

But it is true that bots scanning for sound bites from far right voices in Israel paints a story not consistent with the population at large. If you grabbed far right sound bites from any nation, they would all look insane. 

[Nivsch]

6 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Of course Israel's leadership is largely at fault for how this played out...

But it is true that bots scanning for sound bites from far right voices in Israel paints a story not consistent with the population at large. If you grabbed far right sound bites from any nation, they would all look insane. 

+1 ❤️

Edited May 17 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

It’s everyday Israelis too, not just far right nut jobs. 

[Merkabah Star]

 

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Merkabah Star said:

It’s everyday Israelis too, not just far right nut jobs. 

What percentage of everyday Israelis do you believe think what should be done is to indiscriminately kill civilian Palestinians? 

[Merkabah Star]

25 minutes ago, hundreth said:

What percentage of everyday Israelis do you believe think what should be done is to indiscriminately kill civilian Palestinians? 

Come on man, it’s been pretty obvious what Israelis think, via their comments just on this forum since it started. 

[Leo Gura]

On 5/16/2024 at 8:53 AM, hundreth said:

I feel if you you gave Israelis a magical device with two buttons, one to eliminate the most vicious Hamas members, and another to maximize casualties and immediately win the war - they would choose the former. Israelis would love if there were a clean way to defeat Hamas.

I believe if you gave Hamas the same magical device with the situation flipped, they would choose to destroy all the Jews. 

But this is a biased analogy. If you want to make that analogy then you should give that magic device to the most rabid stage Blue Israeli politicians. That is the analog of Hamas. Don't compare Hamas to the entire citizenry of Israel.

The reality is that Israeli politicans with power and their milutary and intelligence service are all interested in doing an ethnic cleansing campaign. And that is what they are doing. They are not interested in blanket-killing all the Palestinian civilians and children, but they are very interested in making Gaza unlivable and taking more land.

The Israeli position is much more nuanced than just a simple dumb genocide. The Israelis have a crafty, devilish scheme to always keep the Palestinians dominated. THAT is the issue, not that they will exterminate all of them like Hitler did to the Jews. The Israeli government is not Hitler, but they are still doing a sneaky form of ethnic cleansing. This scheme inevitably spawns terrorist backlash. That is the real issue. There is a total failure to take responsiblity for the monster that Israel has created. Yes, the monster bit you, but you created it, and you insist to keep creating it. So expect more bites.

Edited May 17 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura But this is unfair to generalize it on Israel, because all that you wrote rooted in the rigid right-wing thinking and our method is, unfortunately, unlike in US, works in a way that 4 crazy knesset members can collapse the government if does not listen to them since any coalition must keep 61 knesset member (out of 120) to still be alive. 

If you heard a big chunk of the average of most sane even Bibi governments (yes, just part of them) in the past and of course any party from the center or left wing (all of them), you would hear a totally different picture and that no one of them interested in any land Palestinians are sitting in. The chunk that really want to settle in Gaza is only the far right wing.

Edited May 18 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

But this is unfair to generalize it on Israel

As unfair as it is to generalize Hamas on Palestinians. To regard any adult male walking down the street in Gaza as a terrorist and shoot at him. How unfair is that?

Edited May 18 by Leo Gura

[Inliytened1]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But this is a biased analogy. If you want to make that analogy then you should give that magic device to the most rabid stage Blue Israeli politicians. That is the analog of Hamas. Don't compare Hamas to the entire citizenry of Israel.

The reality is that Israeli politicans with power and their milutary and intelligence service are all interested in doing an ethnic cleansing campaign. And that is what they are doing. They are not interested in blanket-killing all the Palestinian civilians and children, but they are very interested in making Gaza unlivable and taking more land.

The Israeli position is much more nuanced than just a simple dumb genocide. The Israelis have a crafty, devilish scheme to always keep the Palestinians dominated. THAT is the issue, not that they will exterminate all of them like Hitler did to the Jews. The Israeli government is not Hitler, but they are still doing a sneaky form of ethnic cleansing. This scheme inevitably spawns terrorist backlash. That is the real issue. There is a total failure to take responsiblity for the monster that Israel has created. Yes, the monster bit you, but you created it, and you insist to keep creating it. So expect more bites.

Israel didn't create this monster.  You forget.  They are are a product of what has come before.  Should they be better than this? Yes. They should.  But is anyone else better than this?  Don't expect them to act like saints when the rest of the world doesn't follow suit. 

Edited May 18 by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Israel didn't create this monster. 

Yes it did.

Hamas is an externality of Israel's existence.

This is the thing that Israelis are in denial about, which then leads to all sorts projections and of distortions of reality.

Edited May 18 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

As unfair as it is to generalize Hamas on Palestinians. To regard any adult male walking down the street in Gaza as a terrorist and shoot at him. How unfair is that?

Ok, Yes, this is unfair too.

See its not that IDF does not try to differentiate between hamas and civilians because the ratio shows it does it better than maybe any other western military who fought with guerilla before.

But for the honesty and decency, still not good enough, and IDF still not really adapted to a war against guerilla. The west is bad at it. And yes in the heat of the war and the fear unfair generalizations on the field are done.

Edited May 18 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes it did.

Hamas is an externality of Israel's existence.

This is the thing that Israelis are in denial about, which then leads to all sorts projections and of distortions of reality.

But we know there were terror groups who did brutal things against Jews here even in the 1930's for example the one leaded by Amin El Husseini. 

I think the most real dynamics is that there was a positive feedback back and forth between micro actions of both sides that created radicalization in both in thousands of small steps.

Edited May 18 by Nivsch

[Inliytened1]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes it did.

Hamas is an externality of Israel's existence.

This is the thing that Israelis are in denial about, which then leads to all sorts projections and of distortions of reality.

No no - I mean by Israel being nearly knocked out of existence time and time again..  They didn't create this monster.   The jews have been almost knocked out of existence so many, many times.  So now they are doing it to Hamas and now you think it's wrong. 

Edited May 18 by Inliytened1

[Vrubel]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

They are not interested in blanket-killing all the Palestinian civilians and children, but they are very interested in making Gaza unlivable and taking more land.

A bit of a stretch. Extreme rightwing pipe dreams don't translate into realities in democracies like Israel. If that were the case illegal Mexicans would have been entirely cleansed in the US. A country like Pakistan can for example in a heartbeat expel 100 000's Afghan refugees and nobody in the world will complain. What does it tell you that even if the most rightwing Israeli government in its history cannot move the Palestinian population away. Yes, the war is horrible but the fact that there is a war is understandable and unavoidable after 7/10 and the hostages. Even so, the most crucial fact is that Palestinians will remain on their land because Egypt nor anyone else wants to take them in (for maybe understandable reasons, no judgment).

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I think the most real dynamics is that there was a positive feedback back and forth between micro actions of both sides that created radicalization in both in thousands of small steps.

Yes, when Israel took over the West Bank from Jordan their policy was for maximum freedom but that changed over time with terror acts. This is the vicious cycle being enacted.This policy of maximum freedom was enacted by Moshe Dayan to show Arabs they can have free and prosperous lives with Israel. And in a sense they did. Their standard of living improved which also made their birthrate fall but not as result of a bad faith measure. To this day West Bank Palestinians have materially better lives than Jordan Palestinians and I am not even talking about the Palestinians in other Arab countries that don't have any rights at all.  

I am currently in Israel, half of my town is basically Arab and despite everything that is going on, life is peaceful and relations are cordial. Arabs can definitely appreciate stability and prosperity. I was always for two states but it came to me that maybe it's better if Israel annexed the West Bank and gives full rights to the Palestinians there making them Israeli citizens perhaps even with limited sovereignty on top of that. But of course this is not without its issues also. Demographics do allow for this but maybe the risk of having a 5th column in society can be a serious risk. 

As for Gaza. They are (now was) already unoccupied and can be a sovereign Palestinian free-state with security guarantees from Egypt. 

Edited May 18 by Vrubel

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

The jews have been almost knocked out of existence so many, many times. 

Sure. But again, being abused is not a license for abusing others.

Edited May 18 by Leo Gura

[Merkabah Star]