Israel has to be stopped

[Karmadhi]

23 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

In short, if you start a war, then don't complain when you have a war, you can surrender if you want

1. Germany and Japan had legit governments. Hamas is not a legitimate government. Most people were not even born when it was elected in 2005. Hence most cannot choose what Hamas does.

2. Germany and Japan launched wars based on desires of expansion. They wanted to conquer others because they thought themselves as superior. In Gaza you have mostly refugees fighting for land that used to be theirs for centuries but were violently kicked out by massacres and ethnic cleansing.

Neither were Germans or Japanese subject to a fascist occupation for decades which violated every human right that exists. 

3. Germany killed close to 25 million civilians and Japan close to 20 million. Hamas has barely killed 1000 civilians. During WW2 there were 20 times more Allied civilians deaths than Axis. Here its the opposite.

4. We have evolved since WW2 standards. Thats what the Geneva convention is for. We are past that brutal collective punishment type of warfare. At least first world democracies.

Bonus: Even though Germans killed closed to 18 million Soviets, when the Soviets took control of Berlin they immediately tried to secure food for the German civilians stuck there to avoid a famine. Israel meanwhile is using famine as a tool of war. And Soviets were not known for being the most kind army. So basically Soviets tried to avoid a famine in Berlin after loosing 18 million civilians by Germans. Here Israel wants a famine in Gaza after loosing 800 civilians. Shows how inhumane they are even compared to a revenge thirsty WW2 USSR
So please before saying such nonsense comparisons do some research otherwise you look very ignorent

Edited March 23 by Karmadhi

[Breakingthewall]

@Karmadhi i know that it's not the same case, it's quite obvious, you don't need to describe the differences. What I meant is that when war starts, there is no consideration for damages. Israel coexists with a people who wish for its disappearance. There comes a time when the glass overflows, and it has arrived. If it were not for international public opinion, all Palestinians would be expelled in an extremely violent way. They have promoted a culture of hate, the basis of their thinking is: hatred of the Jew. This is how they educate their children and this is how they think. I'm not saying that they don't have reasons, there are always reasons, real or imaginary, but if your philosophy of life is hatred, you will receive double hatred. I just exposed a fact, not an opinion about who is right 

[Danioover9000]

@Breakingthewall

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Karmadhi i know that it's not the same case, it's quite obvious, you don't need to describe the differences. What I meant is that when war starts, there is no consideration for damages. Israel coexists with a people who wish for its disappearance. There comes a time when the glass overflows, and it has arrived. If it were not for international public opinion, all Palestinians would be expelled in an extremely violent way. They have promoted a culture of hate, the basis of their thinking is: hatred of the Jew. This is how they educate their children and this is how they think. I'm not saying that they don't have reasons, there are always reasons, real or imaginary, but if your philosophy of life is hatred, you will receive double hatred. I just exposed a fact, not an opinion about who is right 

   And what group started this hate for Jews in the first place? Both GB and the Zionists before Al Nakba! That's 80 years ago, and most of it premeditated! Palestinian lands were already occupied and settled by the indigenous Palestinians there! Both them groups overtime displaced the indigenous population there, both are deeply racist and xenophobic to the already existing population there! Keep in mind the idea of Israel never officially existed until after the British mandate and after Zionists wormed their way into American politics, and got the president to okay and sign the official state of Israel, redacting the title of Jewish state! For Christ sake, all the Zionists then had spies and espionage, detailed every Palestinian village, farm lands, towns, population, and so on. They even made an exception and celebrated sabbath 1 day earlier before the British mandate was signed, coordinating a unified take over of Palestinian infrastructures! Do you think actual Jews and Rabbis were okay when Zionists celebrated Sabbath earlier? 

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Breakingthewall

   And what group started this hate for Jews in the first place? Both GB and the Zionists before Al Nakba! That's 80 years ago, and most of it premeditated! Palestinian lands were already occupied and settled by the indigenous Palestinians there! Both them groups overtime displaced the indigenous population there, both are deeply racist and xenophobic to the already existing population there! Keep in mind the idea of Israel never officially existed until after the British mandate and after Zionists wormed their way into American politics, and got the president to okay and sign the official state of Israel, redacting the title of Jewish state! For Christ sake, all the Zionists then had spies and espionage, detailed every Palestinian village, farm lands, towns, population, and so on. They even made an exception and celebrated sabbath 1 day earlier before the British mandate was signed, coordinating a unified take over of Palestinian infrastructures! Do you think actual Jews and Rabbis were okay when Zionists celebrated Sabbath earlier? 

That is one version and another version says that before the port of Hayfa was built, very few people lived there and that there was a large Arab emigration from Syria and other countries after 1920, so they are as foreign as the Jews, and then the Arabs start one war after another. No one can know, since there were no censuses 100 years ago. Remembering grievances from 100 years ago that were not even like that is living in hatred and you can see the result now.

[Karmadhi]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

know that it's not the same case, it's quite obvious, you don't need to describe the differences. What I meant is that when war starts, there is no consideration for damages. Israel coexists with a people who wish for its disappearance. There comes a time when the glass overflows, and it has arrived. If it were not for international public opinion, all Palestinians would be expelled in an extremely violent way. They have promoted a culture of hate, the basis of their thinking is: hatred of the Jew. This is how they educate their children and this is how they think. I'm not saying that they don't have reasons, there are always reasons, real or imaginary, but if your philosophy of life is hatred, you will receive double hatred. I just exposed a fact, not an opinion about who is right 

Well Israel hates them too so it is a toxic duo where none accepts the other.

The difference is that Israel has the education level, the means and support to make Palestinians accept them far more.

Ending the illegal occupation and treating them well would be a good start. 
Unless they are treated well then they will always hate Israel. So why not start there?

By respecting international laws

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Karmadhi said:

Unless they are treated well then they will always hate Israel. So why not start there?

Maybe you are right and if the Jews treat the Palestinians well, in the end they will end up accepting Israel, but It seems difficult, since there is a history of wars behind that has made things the way they are now. It seems that a turning point is needed, and it could be this catastrophe. The Arabs must see Israel's absolute determination to stay, and the Jews must see the absolute need to coexist with the Arabs equally. This or more endless shit can happen

[BlueOak]

On 3/22/2024 at 7:46 PM, Breakingthewall said:

The reality is that all Palestinians want the expulsion of the Jews and the disappearance of Israel, it has become part of their identity, an essential part at that. They educate their children in it and it is something that occupies a large part of their minds. It is almost a religion: hatred of Israel. You can do whatever you want and they will continue with it, so you, as ruler of Israel, will always try to destabilize and disorganize the Palestinians, since they hate you to death. You are not going to give any ease to those who hate you without remedy. You can make whatever friendly gestures you want, they will take them as weakness and hate you just the same. So, which is the smartest option?

Source?

Show me a source of several (or as many as you know), of people out of the Hamas gang or the Hamas Qatar leadership that are speaking this message. 

I'm sure you can find them if you tried, but you'll probably begin to realise most people prefer food, water, and safety over violence. That's universal. Its the gang mentality in young men that inspires and perpetuates violence, which is also a universal problem.

I'm not going to say you can't tie that up with religion, but the practical implications are the same. Young men in a gang with guns using violence to achieve an end.

Edited March 24 by BlueOak

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

Source?

Show me a source of several (or as many as you know), of people out of the Hamas gang or the Hamas Qatar leadership that are speaking this message. 

I'm sure you can find them if you tried, but you'll probably begin to realise most people prefer food, water, and safety over violence. That's universal. Its the gang mentality in young men that inspires and perpetuates violence, which is also a universal problem.

I'm not going to say you can't tie that up with religion, but the practical implications are the same. Young men in a gang with guns using violence to achieve an end.

I have read a lot on the subject, videos, interviews with people, even a comic by a guy who was in Palestine interviewing Palestinians, and who is pro-Palestinian. What emerges is that the Palestinians, men, women, the elderly and even children, are completely aware that they must fight against Israel since they have been the object of a terrible injustice and martyrdom is preferable to living with it. 

His vision is backward, not forward, always thinking about the grievance that increases as you ruminate on it. Anyone who says that we must change our vision will be branded a traitor and an atheist. Their god and their prophet are being offended by the damned Jews who stain their land and anyone who does not choose martyrdom in the face of this horrible affront is an atheist who deserves hell. 

If I were the Jews, I would leave that shit of desert to them to live happily in their misery and their religion of oppression, but it seems that for the Jews their sacred land is worth any price, so there is only one way out, which is the one we see, war. Then, if it's war and you kill for example 1500 civilians, then you could kill 150.000, it's the same, the number is just a number, it's the quality of the fact what matters. Bury alive in their buildings 100 families of 100 thousand is the same. If you dare with one you dare with all, so once you start, it's better to finish the work because if you don't you will have to do again. I don't defend the genocide, I just expose a logical fact

Edited March 24 by Breakingthewall

[BlueOak]

7 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I have read a lot on the subject, videos, interviews with people, even a comic by a guy who was in Palestine interviewing Palestinians, and who is pro-Palestinian. What emerges is that the Palestinians, men, women, the elderly and even children, are completely aware that they must fight against Israel since they have been the object of a terrible injustice and martyrdom is preferable to living with it. 

His vision is backward, not forward, always thinking about the grievance that increases as you ruminate on it. Anyone who says that we must change our vision will be branded a traitor and an atheist. Their god and their prophet are being offended by the damned Jews who stain their land and anyone who does not choose martyrdom in the face of this horrible affront is an atheist who deserves hell. 

If I were the Jews, I would leave that shit of desert to them to live happily in their misery and their religion of oppression, but it seems that for the Jews their sacred land is worth any price, so there is only one way out, which is the one we see, war. Then, if it's war and you kill for example 1500 civilians, then you could kill 150.000, it's the same, the number is just a number, it's the quality of the fact what matters. Bury alive in their buildings 100 families of 100 thousand is the same. If you dare with one you dare with all, so once you start, it's better to finish the work because if you don't you will have to do again. I don't defend the genocide, I just expose a logical fact

Yes the entire thing is backwards. Forward involves looking beyond our own perspective, and using the outside world's resources, not our own internal bias. Our Internal bias is our past and brings the same result. The rest of Infinity sits outside of it. The quickest way to move on, is bringing others into the equation in some form.

I get that desperate people do desperate things. If there was an authority in Palestine that was not advocating for victory or death, do you honestly think the majority wouldn't follow it - If they had the guns and power? I would say it depends on the quality of life, but even more who holds the guns and power. At the moment that's a violent gang of young men.

Here is one solution: Each region of Palestine is given statehood, and supported by an international coalition. These micronations become easier to manage, and smaller than Israel is. They slowly form a separate legitimized identity in each region, and become responsible for it. Local civil authorities would be responsible for policing themselves and if they do something aggressive, they would be the ones to suffer the consequences directly. Giving people food, water, shelter, and health, no more living in fear and responding out of it. Terrorists (and kids with guns) would be surgically arrested or taken out by special forces, and intelligence services with backing from the local civil authorities. The leaders in Qatar of Hamas should be immediately removed.  If enough nations got involved, and brought specialists in, guaranteeing peace in those small countries, then it could move forward. Its not a big nation-building effort, it is putting in a police force in two small countries, giving each country legitimacy and a voice, then backing it up with a large coalition to make sure they become sustainable in things like food and water or exports.

At the moment, it's largely kids with guns, I don't know what the mean age of males is, only that it will be below 19 the average for men and women. You have to treat these immature minds as you would radicalized teenagers, and there are experts on gangs and radicalization that could help.

Is any of this easy no, but its better than genocide and all the repercussions that will come about. Would civil authority be challenged, yes. It often is in chaotic areas of the world, but having it around means it can be supported. These would not be huge countries to do this in. Its not the first country in anarchy that people have supported a police force being created in to bring about order.

The fundamental point is, that people prefer peace to war when the conditions are safe. You will never convince me otherwise as it goes against every experience I have had to date.

1,500 dead is very different from 150,000 dead.

The amount of hate and suffering is often equivalent to the amount of cyclic hate and suffering it generates. The more families affected, the greater the reprisal. If you genocide a population, it doesn't end there, especially in a region where you are an increasingly isolated culture, and you are genociding people related to the surrounding cultures. I could tell how this has worked out historically, where a small powerful group has taken over an area and effectively genocided the natives, NOT WELL.

I understand Israel is reasonably well protected by itself and America (provided America's isolationist trend reverses), but you must understand that if 150,000 people are killed, the country doing it will suffer for several generations the kinds of acts that brought this about. It doesn't always come about by violence either, I've talked about isolation. Cultures bathed in violence often stagnate and die, sometimes it's the last gasp of a way of life to commit genocide against other people.

Because if you kill 150,000 people next door, and you are okay with that, what does that do to your domestic population, that level of slaughter and death being normalized? Do you see a well-functioning society living harmoniously afterwards? Even if the external threats are kept at bay for a time. Frankly when I listen to the Israeli diplomats they sound like detached lunatics to me, certainly not the only ones that do, there is a lot of fanatical behavior in the region. Another example, Russia is an alcoholic at a bar, and their now more isolated country is crumbling, surrounded by enemies and with the blood of a large number of civilians on their hands seeking vengeance. Its population and infrastructure have been falling apart for a while outside of a few urban centers, but the real threat will be within its own oversized country for a few generations.

The world has become very good at dissociating from their actions and pretending they don't have consequences. Its got VERY good at BS and living in BS. So perhaps people could lie and live in denial. You can do like England does and tell everyone things are going great, when it's consistently getting worse here (at least in the east), but the reality always wins out in the day-to-day experience of life.

This is without even touching on this concept:

Let's say you were slaughtered by an Israeli in your last life, gunned down in the street. Who do you reincarnate as? Possibly as an Israeli bringing all that trauma with you, or their mortal enemy, or someone the other side of the planet who wants nothing to do with it all I guess. Ditto on the other side of this war, its just one more part of the cyclic suffering.

Edited March 24 by BlueOak

[atla]

It's obvious to anyone who has done actual research in this topic that the establishment and expansion of Israel is built upon decades of bloodshed and displacement driven by a religious and ideological claim. Any peace attempts have always been sabotaged or not uphold by Israel, I don't blame the Palestinians for resisting. 

One thing is for sure. I highly doubt Israel will come out on top of this, especially for the citizens. I feel like their reputation has permanently been damaged.

 

[Raze]

 

[Breakingthewall]

18 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Because if you kill 150,000 people next door, and you are okay with that, what does that do to your domestic population, that level of slaughter and death being normalized? Do you see a well-functioning society living harmoniously afterwards? Even if the external threats are kept at bay for a time. Frankly when I listen to the Israeli diplomats they sound like detached lunatics to me,

These diplomats and politicians have lived through several wars and intifadas, many of them on the front lines. Imagine that you live in a country like Portugal and Spain, France, England and Germany come together to annihilate you. It's a pretty stressful situation.

Since 1948 the Arabs have had the disappearance of Israel on their agenda. not the fair treatment of the Palestinians, the return of the West Bank, etc., but the complete disappearance of Israel. If they could, they would completely destroy Israel, leaving no one alive. So, before judging Israel, you have to put yourself in their place. 

19 hours ago, BlueOak said:

The world has become very good at dissociating from their actions and pretending they don't have consequences

What consequences? That the Arabs are going to hate them? More? It's impossible, they are totally hated, they are enemies, so most likely the Israelis will think, since we are mortal enemies, well, let's take off our masks and act like what we are. The situation is extremely difficult for Israel, so the reaction of the Israelis is radicalization, strength, since anything else is weakness, that is, disappearance

[Danioover9000]

@Breakingthewall

On 2024-03-23 at 7:28 PM, Breakingthewall said:

That is one version and another version says that before the port of Hayfa was built, very few people lived there and that there was a large Arab emigration from Syria and other countries after 1920, so they are as foreign as the Jews, and then the Arabs start one war after another. No one can know, since there were no censuses 100 years ago. Remembering grievances from 100 years ago that were not even like that is living in hatred and you can see the result now.

   So using your logic, if it's true that 'Remembering grievances from 100 years ago that were not even like that is living in hatred and you can see the result now.' then is it reasonable to tell the Jews to stop remembering the holocaust and dreaming about a Judeo empire? Or the Germans of today to stop making it mandatory for education to over emphasize WW1 and WW2 when the Nazis taken over?

   Keep in mind much of the Al Nakba is also top secret by Israel, so because it's top secret and not that much consensus is there, justifies Zionism of today? Also what's your source for the other version that before the port of Hayfa was built very few people lived there?

 

[Breakingthewall]

20 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

then is it reasonable to tell the Jews to stop remembering the holocaust and dreaming about a Judeo empire? Or the Germans of today to stop making it mandatory for education to over emphasize WW1 and WW2 when the Nazis taken over?

Those two things you mention are constructive, they are not based on hate. If you base your identity on hatred of others, you do not create anything, you only destroy

 

20 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Also what's your source for the other version that before the port of Hayfa was built very few people lived there?

investigates population censuses in Palestine since the Ottoman Empire. You will not find information, everything is contradictory. something is real, before the port of hayfa the per capita income of the area was lower than that of the neighboring countries, after the construction of the port, much higher, therefore a migratory influx is deduced, but as I said, it's just a version. There are 2 versions always, you can choose the one that you want 

Edited March 25 by Breakingthewall

[Karmadhi]

@Breakingthewall Saying "both sides need to learn to co live with each other" is the ultimate peace creating solution, however it is MUCH easier to say this to Israelis than Palestinians.

Israelis are the ones that came in massive numbers after WW2 and basically colonized a land where others lived.

If I take 2/3 of your house it is easier for the new guy to be ok with co living than the one whose house was taken.

Hence Palestinians are much more stubborn due to them feeling deeply like they were stolen and kicked out.

And I am not talking about political stuff like "soviergn country", that is irrelevant when it comes to how people feel.

If I live here for 500 years and am Arab in land surrounded by Arabs then White Europeans from Poland come and want to take the place i lived for generations I will feel like they are thieves and I will not accept it.

So politics become useless.

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

10 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Breakingthewall Saying "both sides need to learn to co live with each other" is the ultimate peace creating solution, however it is MUCH easier to say this to Israelis than Palestinians.

Israelis are the ones that came in massive numbers after WW2 and basically colonized a land where others lived.

If I take 2/3 of your house it is easier for the new guy to be ok with co living than the one whose house was taken.

Hence Palestinians are much more stubborn due to them feeling deeply like they were stolen and kicked out.

And I am not talking about political stuff like "soviergn country", that is irrelevant when it comes to how people feel.

If I live here for 500 years and am Arab in land surrounded by Arabs then White Europeans from Poland come and want to take the place i lived for generations I will feel like they are thieves and I will not accept it.

So politics become useless.

   This is factually true given the events before the Al Nakba, there's no denying the increase of immigration by European Zionists into West Bank and Gaza, and other areas occupied by Palestinians before. It's clear enough from the history there was a 100 years ethnic cleansing going on in the area.

   Biggest issue for any peace making attempt, is how does a group or society deal with the mass trauma dump being dealt to Palestinians by the Israelis ruling Zionists in that area? Without addressing that collective trauma in a deep and meaningful way, there'll always be a defensive and hateful attitude by Palestinians towards some Israelis and especially racist xenophobic Zionists.

[BlueOak]

7 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

These diplomats and politicians have lived through several wars and intifadas, many of them on the front lines. Imagine that you live in a country like Portugal and Spain, France, England and Germany come together to annihilate you. It's a pretty stressful situation.

Since 1948 the Arabs have had the disappearance of Israel on their agenda. not the fair treatment of the Palestinians, the return of the West Bank, etc., but the complete disappearance of Israel. If they could, they would completely destroy Israel, leaving no one alive. So, before judging Israel, you have to put yourself in their place. 

What consequences? That the Arabs are going to hate them? More? It's impossible, they are totally hated, they are enemies, so most likely the Israelis will think, since we are mortal enemies, well, let's take off our masks and act like what we are. The situation is extremely difficult for Israel, so the reaction of the Israelis is radicalization, strength, since anything else is weakness, that is, disappearance

Yes. It's highlighting the point. The region they come from defines how they act, it doesn't make it healthy. If I had grown up in a city and joined a gang and was still in one I'd be talking to you in a certain way. it wouldn't be healthy for a normal life, but it'd be how I had to be to stay in the gang. We can do the same with anything, jobs, careers, abusive relationships, war-torn countries, poverty. It's still a choice to push one way or the other, no matter what is in front of you. That's often the only choice we get.

You can choose in life to divide or to unite. Bring things together or pull them apart. In its simplest form, that's what people do. Act in a fear-based reasoning or the opposite.

I will add that things can always get worse. We can do a few scenarios, but the region is unstable, on the present course these come to mind:

1) You can always hate someone more. It's a gradient, in what you are willing to do. People are willing and need to be more hostile towards israel for their own domestic population's expectations, their friends and families are dying. Meaning more aggression against trade routes, borders and sabotaging Israel where they can. (Also against America and the UK for backing them)

2) America keeps going isolationist - BRICS becomes ascendant, and Iran crushes Israel because nobody cares about them anymore.

3) They create 200,000 new suicide bombers. 10% of the Gaza population. There might be many more than that if enough fanatics are grown because of the genocide in other countries or regions. People still talk about the Jewish genocide 80 years later. Do you understand the time scale of these things? We talk about some cultures thousands of years later.

4) Israel's leadership is no longer considered sufficient, it needs to be more militaristic for a population that has come to expect it, and so generates a worse outcome in the region and a wider regional war.

5) Same as above, but with more religious leaning, we get an even more conservative religious government in Israel, making further problems more likely dealing with other faiths, not less. If violence achieves the aim, then violence will be used again.

6) Another country declares war on Israel for slowly starving 2 million people and causing a refugee crisis nearby. - A wider regional war.

7) Sanctions are put on Israel, and the country regresses. I'm favor of this one right now, leveraging it to create a peaceful outcome.

8) You know BRICS are going to use this for decades to hit the west with. In every way you can conceive, and who can blame them? Only China will need to be careful, as they've got plenty of skeletons in their closet.

9) And this one is all but assured. If Israel is allowed to genocide Palestine, it creates opportunities for other countries to do so. Everyone that does it, normalizes it. China has done a fair bit of this in recent decades, which was always banned to talk about, which made the problem hidden and worse. - America invading Iraq the second time, was quoted by Russia and Israel in their own wars as an example. Russia fighting its wars gave central asia the greenlight for their own, it made Turkey and Greece start looking at war again, the same with the Balkans etc.

War creates more war. Suffering creates more suffering.

You pick to divide or pull things together. - At the moment you are choosing division and suffering, and to hear it from you surprises the hell out of me to be frank.

Edited March 25 by BlueOak

[Breakingthewall]

46 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

If I take 2/3 of your house it is easier for the new guy to be ok with co living than the one whose house was taken.

The thing is not exactly like that. Palestine was an unpopulated desert and people were arriving. At one point one party founded a state and another declared war on them. and since then war has been the norm. It is not a war for territory but between religious fanatics

[Heaven]

Isis/Hamas/Hizbula must be stopped! 
 

[Karmadhi]

@Danioover9000

37 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Biggest issue for any peace making attempt, is how does a group or society deal with the mass trauma dump being dealt to Palestinians by the Israelis ruling Zionists in that area? Without addressing that collective trauma in a deep and meaningful way, there'll always be a defensive and hateful attitude by Palestinians towards some Israelis and especially racist xenophobic Zionists.

A big issue is the Zionism ideology which runs the whole show.

Personally I find it extremely toxic ideology and I think the world would be better without it.

Jews do not need Zionism to be safe, it just makes them look bad and makes them prone to being attacked.

I am shocked to see people in this group supporting it, especially these days where Zionism fuels downright facist and racist behavior from Israeli government. 

 

Edited March 25 by Karmadhi