Israel has to be stopped

[BlueOak]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is the same in the sense that two groups or nations have conflicting interests and this leads to violence, and once violence begins, the only important thing is to win, to crush the enemy so that he cannot attack you. It is already the fourth time that the Palestinians declare war on Israel, the normal thing in these cases is to be exterminated 

Israel now has only one thing in mind, show to it's enemies that attack them is a terrible mistake. That's the way to avoid more attacks, there is not another way 

Truthfully. Is this the only end to violence you have seen or experienced? That one side beats the other until it no longer can fight or wants to fight?

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Truthfully. Is this the only end to violence you have seen or experienced? That one side beats the other until it no longer can fight or wants to fight?

What else to do? Live with your enemies who wants to destroy you? Seems a bad idea

[BlueOak]

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

What else to do? Live with your enemies who wants to destroy you? Seems a bad idea

We can go through a hundred courses of action again but nobody cares. I've done it three times. People want the war, so it continues.

I'll instead list the obvious ways fights between nations end.

Others stop them.
Resources run out. Weapons, money etc.
The fighting age population is depleted.
The leadership is toppled.
Diplomacy.
A peaceful leader fosters a movement of non-violence.
Public protest against a war.
Collapse of a country.
Invasion of a country.
Some external disasters like famine or drought.
People lose stomach for the slaughter.

Its not two men slugging punches at each other till one drops. Its millions of people, various different groups that are largely controlled from outside the country with a long history of violence. In this analogy, the two people fighting are nowhere near each other and the people being hit have seen violence for generations.

You think one more horrific violent display on people who are largely moved as puppets, does anything but create more suffering later down the line? In your logic we'd have to be at WW3 or in a larger regional war to achieve the result, which nobody wants.
 

Edited March 22, 2024 by BlueOak

[Breakingthewall]

@BlueOak 

The Palestinians demand the expulsion of the Jews from Israel, in no case do they accept the presence of the Jews in Israel, and they periodically declare wars and carry out attacks, so what is the solution? accept what they say and leave, or expel them

[Jodistrict]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

When the US was at war with Japan, there was a time when Japan sought an honorable surrender, but the United States sought an unconditional surrender, since anything else would risk more war. The Japanese had the doctrine of 100 million dead, until a single Japanese lived, they would not surrender. The Americans, to force the surrender, bombed Tokyo with incendiary bombs, causing 100,000 deaths in a single day, and then they dropped an atomic bomb, and to clear up doubts, they dropped another. The Japanese, seeing the determination of the Americans, had to surrender.

Then they became good friends and partner in business, same than the Germans and the British, who bombed hamburg and dresde without mercy. Same mercy than the Germans, or the Japanese, would show if they could  

In short, if you start a war, then don't complain when you have a war, you can surrender if you want

It is a common argument of the neocons to make a reference to Japan and Germany and World War II.   I have even heard  this basic argument in an interview from Secretary of State Antony Blinken.   The argument:  we bombed Japan and Germany to rubble to get rid of the bad guys, but not to worry because in a few years it was all rebuilt.  We can do the same here.  

I believe that this is a dangerous and distorted analogy and ignores important differences.   Like that Israel is surrounded by a billion Muslims and they are rapidly improving their military and economic power while the US, Israel’s protector, is growing weaker in a multipolar world.  Realistically, Israel’s slim hope of survival depends on making peace with its neighbors.  Force alone simply won’t work. 

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Jodistrict said:

believe that this is a dangerous and distorted analogy and ignores important differences.   Like that Israel is surrounded by a billion Muslims and they are rapidly improving their military and economic power while the US, Israel’s protector, is growing weaker in a multipolar world.  Realistically, Israel’s slim hope of survival depends on making peace with its neighbors.  Force alone simply won’t work. 

That's true, but they have to show strength, if they show weakness, they are lost. The Muslims countries respect the strength, the violence and the cruelty, that's the language that they speak, if you want be respected by them, you have to demonstrate your will to fight without limit. If they perceive that you are a hippie pacifist, they are going to destroy you

[BlueOak]

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@BlueOak 

The Palestinians demand the expulsion of the Jews from Israel, in no case do they accept the presence of the Jews in Israel, and they periodically declare wars and carry out attacks, so what is the solution? accept what they say and leave, or expel them

The Palestinians are mostly children with their age range, the median being 19 (lower in males), they don't even have a voice, or communications. If they did speak I would speak to them and treat them as I would a child or teen involved in a gang. Some leadership in Qatar told the people with guns to give you that message and now you are telling me it. They did this because it kept them in power, they have an opponent, and they run an organized gang mostly comprised of people too young to vote and the few that lived long enough to perpetuate it. Certain Israeli policies and government officials have also been able to continue their existence by having them as opponents which is why the following is never supported by either side:

Not allowing a solid government to form in Palestine (and assist it) is Israeli's biggest mistake, because any measure of authority that would be held responsible for what is happening doesn't even live there. They would have an official body to interact with, this would also legitimize the Palestinians as having their own country, and allow a carrot and stick approach. Instead, we have a refugee camp ruled by a gang, not a country secured by police and civil authorities.

I am honestly not willing to break all the alternate routes this could have gone down, or the more sensible options that were available. i've done many posts on it it's a waste of time. Countries want to act on their own, without global legitimacy for their actions, this is a global trend, so their leadership at least should bear the consequences alone and not be given an infinite supply of weapons for their individual ambitions. If they want to act as part of an international effort to bring peace, or retrieve hostages for example that is one thing, but my government in the UK, and in the US are responsible for facilitating the genocide in the region and shielding those responsible from the natural consequences of such an action. (Just as other countries do for Hamas and Iran)

Edited March 22, 2024 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

The short version is: Palestine needs a police force and civil authorities not a military occupation if people REALLY want peace and stability.

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Not allowing a solid government to form in Palestine (and assist it) is Israeli's biggest mistake, because any measure of authority that would be held responsible for what is happening doesn't even live there. They would have an official body to interact with, this would also legitimize the Palestinians as having their own country, and allow a carrot and stick approach. Instead, we have a refugee camp ruled by a gang, not a country secured by police and civil authorities. 

Bibi can't think creatively. He is the king of status quo. He just can't think about the day after the war and do any geopolitical moves. He has a real problem in his thinking ability.

[Breakingthewall]

36 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

The Palestinians are mostly children with their age range, the median being 19 (lower in males), they don't even have a voice, or communications. If they did speak I would speak to them and treat them as I would a child or teen involved in a gang. Some leadership in Qatar told the people with guns to give you that message and now you are telling me it. They did this because it kept them in power, they have an opponent, and they run an organized gang mostly comprised of people too young to vote and the few that lived long enough to perpetuate it. Certain Israeli policies and government officials have also been able to continue their existence by having them as opponents which is why the following is never supported by either side:

Not allowing a solid government to form in Palestine (and assist it) is Israeli's biggest mistake, because any measure of authority that would be held responsible for what is happening doesn't even live there. They would have an official body to interact with, this would also legitimize the Palestinians as having their own country, and allow a carrot and stick approach. Instead, we have a refugee camp ruled by a gang, not a country secured by police and civil authorities.

I am honestly not willing to break all the alternate routes this could have gone down, or the more sensible options that were available. i've done many posts on it it's a waste of time. Countries want to act on their own, without global legitimacy for their actions, this is a global trend, so their leadership at least should bear the consequences alone and not be given an infinite supply of weapons for their individual ambitions. If they want to act as part of an international effort to bring peace, or retrieve hostages for example that is one thing, but my government in the UK, and in the US are responsible for facilitating the genocide in the region and shielding those responsible from the natural consequences of such an action. (Just as other countries do for Hamas and Iran)

The reality is that all Palestinians want the expulsion of the Jews and the disappearance of Israel, it has become part of their identity, an essential part at that. They educate their children in it and it is something that occupies a large part of their minds. It is almost a religion: hatred of Israel. You can do whatever you want and they will continue with it, so you, as ruler of Israel, will always try to destabilize and disorganize the Palestinians, since they hate you to death. You are not going to give any ease to those who hate you without remedy. You can make whatever friendly gestures you want, they will take them as weakness and hate you just the same. So, which is the smartest option?

[Merkabah Star]

@J J

only the USA can stop it, and they refuse to. It’s only just getting started. Wait till they start moving people out of Gaza. 

[Danioover9000]

@Merkabah Star

2 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

@J J

only the USA can stop it, and they refuse to. It’s only just getting started. Wait till they start moving people out of Gaza. 

   Is it really true that only the USA can stop Israel?

[Danioover9000]

@Breakingthewall

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Danioover9000  

obviously it is not the same, it is similar in that it is a war. The Palestinians do not want peace, they want war and the expulsion of the Jews from Israel, then there is war, and the logical thing would be for Israel to expel all the Palestinians. They are already totally hated by the Palestinian and by all their neighbors, so they lose nothing and gain a lot. 

Yes, there is no solution, they aren't going to stop being fundamentalist, so it is impossible to live with them. Either you go or they go.

   If it's true that it's obviously not the same, then why say it's the same? If true, wouldn't you now have to either back track and rephrase your position and argument better, or concede your point and then make a new argument in this case? Also are you assuming it's the only logical thing for Israel to expel all the Palestinians, and which Israel? The more traditional Jews, the more left wing Israelis, or Zionists who follow Zionism and right wing ideologies.

   For example, the strongest argument you could make is to concede your point being made about sameness, clear up your terms, and start talking about specifically a new argument, one about Zionism, the Al Nakba, probably how GB mishandled the region and over favored the European Jews/Zionists and treated the then indigenous population of the Palestinians before 1948. You could then maybe cover how the Igrun, a right wing Zionist group, learned from and taught by GB military tactics and gained equipment, meanwhile Palestinians were getting expelled and subjugated by GB and the Zionists similarly, and even bring up the problem with how some criminals 80-70 years ago were nominated as prime ministers by Zionists, and who knows how many racists Zionists are in the current cabinet of Benjamin Netanyahu has?

[Danioover9000]

   Basically mostly this thread:

   Either Israel has to stop, or HAMMAs has to stop, and we're then stuck with this false dichotomy of Israel/Palestine having to stop. There are other ways and outside factors that could force a stop here, not just only Palestine or Israel having to stop.

[Breakingthewall]

13 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Breakingthewall

   If it's true that it's obviously not the same, then why say it's the same? If true, wouldn't you now have to either back track and rephrase your position and argument better, or concede your point and then make a new argument in this case? Also are you assuming it's the only logical thing for Israel to expel all the Palestinians, and which Israel? The more traditional Jews, the more left wing Israelis, or Zionists who follow Zionism and right wing ideologies.

   For example, the strongest argument you could make is to concede your point being made about sameness, clear up your terms, and start talking about specifically a new argument, one about Zionism, the Al Nakba, probably how GB mishandled the region and over favored the European Jews/Zionists and treated the then indigenous population of the Palestinians before 1948. You could then maybe cover how the Igrun, a right wing Zionist group, learned from and taught by GB military tactics and gained equipment, meanwhile Palestinians were getting expelled and subjugated by GB and the Zionists similarly, and even bring up the problem with how some criminals 80-70 years ago were nominated as prime ministers by Zionists, and who knows how many racists Zionists are in the current cabinet of Benjamin Netanyahu has?

Yes, yes, we can talk endlessly about what happened a long time ago and give two completely opposite versions, and never agree, but there is one reality: war. In that it is the same as any other war, it is about defeating the enemy. Those on one side will say that they have countless reasons that make them right, and those on the other side will say the same. You are on one side and your point of view is absolutely obvious, and others see the opposite obvious.

I have only said that it is a war, and it is the same as any war, two groups that hate each other over a dispute killing each other. In these cases what happens is that the strongest does what is necessary to deactivate the threat posed by the other

Obviously Israel is in a extremely shitty position. If I where Israel I would leave that shit of desert and buy some lands in Africa and do a paradise very far of any Muslim, but it seems that for the Jews is absolutely vital to be there, so they are going to fight until death

[Merkabah Star]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Merkabah Star

   Is it really true that only the USA can stop Israel?

Yes. 

even Germany is calling them out now. Thats when you know you’ve gone too far. 😳

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

Yes. 

even Germany is calling them out now. Thats when you know you’ve gone too far. 😳

No. This is because of Netanyahu refusal to strategically plan how to fill the vaccum in Gaza the day after the war. That is what make Israel more isolated right now. Biden too is mad about Bibi right now.

This is not because of the physical actions of Israel, but purely Netanyahu's thinking disability.

Edited March 23, 2024 by Nivsch

[zazen]

11 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

@J J

only the USA can stop it, and they refuse to. It’s only just getting started. Wait till they start moving people out of Gaza. 

 

[zazen]

Even the right wing are dividing as they can't remain silent any longer or be seen to be 'on the wrong side of history' in retrospect as Israel continues and defies the worlds condemnation. 

The US initially plays the role of an accomplice, only to later paint a target among their ally as the protagonist villain. By scapegoating Netanyahu, they conveniently sidestep scrutiny of their own institutions and elites that facilitate his regime's actions. This just shields these institutions from accountability and evades the need to change them and disrupt invested interests. Ultimately, it shifts the burden of guilt onto others while protecting their own interests.

Edited March 23, 2024 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

I have not seen an entity become condemned and criticized by literally the entire world since ISIS.

Nice job Israel

You have become the newest “Enemy of humanity”