History of the Nakba.

[Danioover9000]

   Ever since that horrendous podcast and debate, they brought up this Nakba history event. These documentaries look interesting. and due to my ignorance of this part of history I'll be watching this series and sharing my thoughts:

 

   What do these events remind you of in other historical events?

[Nivsch]

I understand your motivation and your position, but to site the poison machine won't help anyone understand what happened 🧁🔥

Start with a source who is healthy in the way it does not do its all career from dehumanization of the other side using stones of truth wraped up with an Atmosphere of lies.

Edited March 18 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

Aljazeera has some great videos.

[Karmadhi]

10 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

Ever since that horrendous podcast and debate, they brought up this Nakba history event. These documentaries look interesting. and due to my ignorance of this part of history I'll be watching this series and sharing my thoughts:

I have positioned myself on this forum as a super pro Palestinian guy but when it comes to the Nakba I feel like it is a bit overblown.

I am not saying that it was not awful or unfair but it happened 80 years ago or so, and at those times we had much worse things happening in the world which now are mostly healed.

For example Poland after loosing 6 million citizens during WW2, and having its capital razed to the ground (85% of all structures destroyed), it lost a ton of historical territory to USSR and caused mass migrations.

Today Poland is in OK terms with Russia and in decent terms with Germany (which killed close to 17% of its population). That would be the equivalent of Israel killing in Gaza close to 375.000 civilians (12 times what it has so far).

So still being so hung over about the Nakba is counter intuitive to peace to me.

What I find totally unacceptable by Israel though is the fact that a mini Nakba has been happening for decades now. That is the true issue that is counter intuitive to peace.

It is this constant occupation and shit treatment which causes so much hatred.

This has to stop. No justification for it. ESPECIALLY in the west bank.

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Aljazeera has some great videos.

I love how Pro Israelis immediately disregard it because it does not suit their deeply biased views.

[Nivsch]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Aljazeera has some great videos.

Maybe it reflects great the feelings of their side, but does not relflect what actually happened, nor do justice nor give any clue about the real motives, fears, intentions and struggles of the second side. 

For example, it will never mention that the Jews were almost lost at the beginning of the war when their strategy was mostly deffensive, or it will never mention that the Jews accepted the UN plan and the Arabs didn't.

Edited March 18 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

31 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

For example, it will never mention that the Jews were almost lost at the beginning of the war when their strategy was mostly deffensive

Do you think it justifies the massacres they did afterwards? I saw some disturbing clips of Israeli old soldiers talking about putting kids in ovens and depleting their machine gun ammo on civilians in villages. They were also laughing about it which made it downright horrible to me.

31 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

it will never mention that the Jews accepted the UN plan and the Arabs didn't.

That is a good point but keep in mind the Jews had more reason to accept it. Palestinians lived there for centuries so for them it felt like they had to give up land to European refugees and they did not want to. Jews meanwhile were getting a free state out of nowhere so they were more willing to do so.

If you get something out of nowhere for free you will be more willing to negotiate. Palestinians and Arabs in general felt like they were getting screwed over. There were Arab Jews there too but I saw it was like 5% of the population? Feel free to correct me here.

And "Jews used to live there 2000 years ago" is not a valid argument to be honest. Nobody will accept it. 

Also Israel had more than 50% of the land from the partition but I do not know how useful the land was per say.

Edited March 18 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi There are also dozens of criminal husbands who murdered their wives last month in Canada. 

Then Canada is evil?

Criminals are found in every system.

Edited March 18 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Most of the Palestinians came to the region only a while before Israel was established, as work immigrants under the Ottoman rule.

The land was populated by Arabs and Jews who lived here in a relatively peaceful manner.

Edited March 18 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Most of the Palestinians came to the region only a while before Israel was established, as work immigrants under the Ottoman rule.

The land was populated by Arabs and Jews who lived here in a relatively peaceful manner.

Arent Palestinian Arabs? I thought they lived there for centuries which is why they claim that land. 

[Karmadhi]

23 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

There are also dozens of criminal husbands who murdered their wives last month in Canada. 

Then Canada is evil?

Criminals are found in every system.

Fair.

There is a difference between spontaneous random war crimes which happen in every war and a systematic organized attempt to do war crimes and atrocities. I currently lack the information to know whether back then it was the former (acceptable), or the latter (unacceptable).

[Nivsch]

28 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Arent Palestinian Arabs? I thought they lived there for centuries which is why they claim that land. 

Actually yes, Arabs. The Palestinian identity has started after Israel has established. See? Me also fell right now into this mind frame trick.

This is really about Jews and Arabs who have this land for legit reasons and have to live here together.

Edited March 18 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

43 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Actually yes, Arabs. The Palestinian identity has started after Israel has established. See? Me also fell right now into this mind frame trick.

This is really about Jews and Arabs who have this land for legit reasons and have to live here together.

It is true that the "Palestinian identity" might be a new thing but I think Palestine existed as a country before WW2. I have seen this clip of Hitler in a meeting at the Bunderstag in Germany in 1938 reading a letter from Roosevelt. In the letter Roosevelt calls for "Germany should not invade the following countries" which include basically all of Europe. Palestine is on the list. So USA did recognize it as an entity even before WW2.

Now regarding national identities they are indeed fictions but my point is about the tangible components which is houses and people living in X place.

Those people lived there for centuries and the idea of them having to move out is not acceptable nor desirable. They will not be happy with it.

Whether they were called Palestinians or this or that is irrelevant. I am very open to the idea that Palestine is a new concept, so we can agree on that part.

And do not forget that you have a shit lot of Jews being dumped into that land which started at early 1930s and culminated after WW2. Considering people in that area were not involved with the Holocaust it is kind of understandable why they would not be happy with this dumping because it had nothing to do with them. It was an European issue.

If it was just Arab Jews I think the situation would be different. White people going in Arab land can give the idea of colonization which is why liberals support Palestine so much.

Keep in mind here I am playing mostly the devil advocate and explaining to you the reasons why people are not happy about this rather than giving my personal opinion. 

Personally to me the whole idea of "nations" is just fiction human nonsense and I despise nationalism and hardcore religion. However I care deeply about people dying, having their homes destroyed and other things I consider "tangible".

The main reason I despise Israeli occupation of Palestine is not because "national identity gets erased" and stuff like that.

It is because Israel treats them like absolute shit, denies rights, kill them, torture, jail them etc. If they treated Palestinians Arabs as well as White Jews I would care far less about this whole issue.

Edited March 18 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

   What is so fascinating is just how premeditated this all was! It's not that it's mostly circumstantial or accidental that Israel was formed from the Nakba, but there's so much planning and organizing of this. And this is just 80 years ago just to contextualize what's happening today. I honestly felt like if the Zionists were far more aggressive in eliminating every Palestinians then they'd still get a pass! And I can't believe how unaware Zionism is of itself when it's similar to Nazism, it's literaly like a perpetrator-victim cycle, and the victim becomes the perpetrator but on a collective scale:

 

   I now know a little bit why the Palestinians feel they want to kick off with the Israelis for what happened. It's just wow.

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Aljazeera has some great videos.

   I agree they are a decent source and perspective. I may in the future include other sources covering this event, but I suspect most may be white washed by now but I will try to seek other sources.

[Nivsch]

@Danioover9000 They know it was a war? 📖

Probably forgot this detail. 

Even without relating to the list of lies.

What about self deffense? They know this term? 

Edited March 18 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

8 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

What is so fascinating is just how premeditated this all was! It's not that it's mostly circumstantial or accidental that Israel was formed from the Nakba, but there's so much planning and organizing of this. And this is just 80 years ago just to contextualize what's happening today. I honestly felt like if the Zionists were far more aggressive in eliminating every Palestinians then they'd still get a pass! And I can't believe how unaware Zionism is of itself when it's similar to Nazism, it's literaly like a perpetrator-victim cycle, and the victim becomes the perpetrator but on a collective scale:

Zionism is a toxic stage blue ideology which hurts Jews more than it helps them.

It basically claims Jews should have a country which is at first not a bad idea.

Issue is that it is obsessed with having that country in X land based on religious nonsense and this goal is to be achieved with 0 regard for the damage it can do to others. 

Selfishness 101.

I do not think Israel wanted to kill the Palestinian Arabs, they wanted to expel them so they would have their holy land to make their state. Killing people is a good way for them to flee.

The difference with the Nazis is that Nazis wanted to kill the Jews meanwhile Israel wants to expel the Palestinian Arabs.

So it is the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Ethnic cleansing although horrible is still better than genocide.

A real life comparison would be someone stealing your house and kicking you out versus killing you.

Murder is sentenced more than theft.

There are countless cases of Jews trying to flee during the Holocaust (after the Final solution was passed in early 1942). If they were caught they were killed. "Let me leave your land" would not work. Meanwhile in ethnic cleansing it would work.

Edited March 18 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

Just now, Nivsch said:

@Danioover9000 They know it was a war? Nah.

   Have you not watched one of the episodes? According to them, the Zionists there sneaked in spies to record EVERYTHING. Every village, every inch of farm land, every demographic, even every number of fruit in every tree! Such levels of information gathering I find very difficult to argue against and hand wave it as accidental or circumstantial, the Zionists were hyper planning everything before and during the Al-Nakba. Is that not premeditated action for a Zionist kingdom?

   Also, second half, when Great Britain wanted to reduce the number of Zionists from Europe going to the area of Palestine, trying to send them elsewhere, that part of the Zionist movement that received military training started doing gorilla warfare against them. Is that premeditated or just accidental and circumstantial?  

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

13 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Zionism is a toxic stage blue ideology which hurts Jews more than it helps them.

It basically claims Jews should have a country which is at first not a bad idea.

Issue is that it is obsessed with having that country in X land based on religious nonsense and this goal is to be achieved with 0 regard for the damage it can do to others. 

Selfishness 101.

I do not think Israel wanted to kill the Palestinian Arabs, they wanted to expel them so they would have their holy land to make their state. Killing people is a good way for them to flee.

The difference with the Nazis is that Nazis wanted to kill the Jews meanwhile Israel wants to expel the Palestinian Arabs.

So it is the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Ethnic cleansing although horrible is still better than genocide.

A real life comparison would be someone stealing your house and kicking you out versus killing you.

Murder is sentenced more than theft.

There are countless cases of Jews trying to flee during the Holocaust (after the Final solution was passed in early 1942). If they were caught they were killed. "Let me leave your land" would not work. Meanwhile in ethnic cleansing it would work.

   Yes I agree Zionism and Nazism are similarly selfish in terms of a ethnic/religious nationalism. Yes I agree the key difference of what made Nazism more worse than Zionism was the genocide and more killing part, and not the ethnic cleansing part. Although if you look at the ICP's and UN's definition of genocide it's a process, can involve not just killings but displacement of native populations in a given area, plus other war crimes. Even the gangs from Zionism are comparable to the secret police of the Nazi Germany Era.

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I understand your motivation and your position, but to site the poison machine won't help anyone understand what happened 🧁🔥

Start with a source who is healthy in the way it does not do its all career from dehumanization of the other side using stones of truth wraped up with an Atmosphere of lies.

   Okay, chill with the poisoning the well fallacy, as stated I will find other sources and documentaries covering this event.😊

[Nivsch]

@Danioover9000 This does not make sense in the context of surviving. This was a civil war Jungle.

If you can find the same thing from another source I will investigate it seriously. 

I won't take seriously the source who engraved on its flag to fight Israel in the communication field and all means are valid.

Edited March 18 by Nivsch