It is quite clear what is (at least) possible without using steroids

[CosmicExplorer]

FACTS, WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE STEROIDS WERE EVEN INVENTED:

Among Hermann Görner's many feats of strength were the following notable lifts:

Deadlift – 360 kg (793 lb) with overhand hook grip. 380 kg (840 lb) with mixed grip.

One-handed deadlift – 330 kg (730 lb) on 8 October 1920, Leipzig, Germany

Deadlift – 270 kg (600 lb) using just two fingers of each hand
As far as bodybuilding goes (and he wasn't even a bodybuilder) - 28.4 FFMI at 15% body fat (and this is a conservative estimation)



So those things above are what is AT THE VERY LEAST possible with great genetics. Why? Because they didn't even use creatine back then, not to mention sub-optimal training and nutrition, AND way way fewer people were training overall than today so obviously fewer people with insane genetics were training.

Some photos of the pre-steroid era guys (there's simply no way these guys aren't natural as steroids weren't even available in any lab):

 

It's not about who is natty or not as that is impossible to know. But about what is possible natty. And yes, great physiques and insane strength is possible natty. It requires however the most important thing - genetics which is the biggest pill

Examples of photos (with good lighting and angles) of some modern physiques which are below 28.4 FFMI

~24.3 FFMI

 

~26 FFMI

25 FFMI

Edited March 17 by CosmicExplorer

[Schizophonia]

Steroids destroy health and are addictive.

[CosmicExplorer]

16 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Steroids destroy health and are addictive.

Yes, there's no reason to take steroids unless you have elite bodybuilding/strength genetics and want to compete at the top professional level. 

[Jason Actualization]

The one major problem here is that FFMI doesn't translate across different body fat percentages, i.e., a 28.4 FFMI at 15% will drop drastically once that person reaches single digit body fat, but yes, great physiques are indeed possible naturally.

In terms of modern fitness influencers, a great example of what's possible naturally with top 10% genetics is Jesse James West.

But yes, you are correct, genetics are a primary factor, so much so that people with elite genetics will exceed the physique, naturally, of someone with poor genetics who is on gear. I have been training for over a decade, and while rare, there are literally guys bigger than me who have never stepped foot in a fitness facility, lol. What's possible is all relative to your starting stats.

Ronnie Coleman looked absolutely insane as a natural lifter (his mom probably has more muscle than every man on this forum, myself included, lol).

[CosmicExplorer]

1 hour ago, Jason Actualization said:

The one major problem here is that FFMI doesn't translate across different body fat percentages, i.e., a 28.4 FFMI at 15% will drop drastically once that person reaches single digit body fat

Yes, FFMI will drop as someone gets leaner but it will not be a drastic difference. Assuming 85% fat loss and 15% muscle loss on a properly paced, high protein diet with proper resistance training, the difference in FFMI going from lean to shredded will be like 0.6 at best.

1 hour ago, Jason Actualization said:

But yes, you are correct, genetics are a primary factor, so much so that people with elite genetics will exceed the physique, naturally, of someone with poor genetics who is on gear

And this is something many people can't possibly fathom, or just don't want to embrace the hard truth. And it's even more radical than that.
 

Quote

 

"World-record deadlifter Andy Bolton squatted 500 and deadlifted 600 the very first time he tried the lifts.

Former Mr. Olympia Dorian Yates bench-pressed 315 pounds on his first attempt as a teen."

 

Quote

Recent research shows that some individuals respond very well to strength training, some barely respond, and some don’t respond at all. You read that correctly. Some people don’t show any noticeable results. Researchers created the term “non-responders” for these individuals.

A landmark study by Hubal used 585 male and female human subjects and showed that twelve weeks of progressive dynamic exercise resulted in a shockingly wide range of responses.

The worst responders lost 2% of their muscle cross-sectional area and didn’t gain any strength whatsoever. The best responders increased muscle cross-sectional area by 59% and increased their 1RM strength by 250%. Keep in mind these individuals were subjected to the exact same training protocol.

https://forums.t-nation.com/t/the-truth-about-bodybuilding-genetics/285342

A large percentage of the male population walking on this planet will never be able to squat 500 and deadlift 600 pounds even if you put them on insane doses of steroids, the best training protocol, give them the best trainers...

In terms of strength, going from natural to steroids one can expect about 10% to 15% boost to their powerlifting total, which is definitely a great boost but it won't make a guy with weak genetics suddenly an elite powerlifter, not even close. Genetics is such an underestimated factor

 

Edited March 17 by CosmicExplorer

[Leo Gura]

Don't miss the elephant in the room:

Getting jacked is a waste of time.

And girls don't even like it. You're doing it for your own vanity.

Edited March 18 by Leo Gura

[Princess Arabia]

Ewww

[Jason Actualization]

1 hour ago, CosmicExplorer said:

Yes, FFMI will drop as someone gets leaner but it will not be a drastic difference. Assuming 85% fat loss and 15% muscle loss on a properly paced, high protein diet with proper resistance training, the difference in FFMI going from lean to shredded will be like 0.6 at best.

Just ran the numbers, yes this checks out. The drop is not as drastic as I had assumed. A FFMI north of 25 is very impressive in my book, 28 (as a natural) is absolute top shelf, elite genetic superiority.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Getting jacked is a waste of time.

And girls don't even like it. You're doing it for your own vanity.

Girls appreciate a developed male physique, but the concern in my estimation are the health-compromising and ego-driven lengths that guys will go to in order to achieve and supersede such, i.e., steroids, neurotic behavioral patterns in terms of training and nutrition, etc. It ends up devolving into a cock measuring contest and at some point you are in fact only impressing other guys.

Confidence is the king at the end of the day, and one does not need an impressive physique to solidify that, albeit I do still believe the pursuit of building a "better" body offers immense carryover value into other areas of life.

[Michael569]

The amount of men (and women) who take steroids these days, per average gym, is higher than you would assume. Once you start to notice the signs, you can't unsee it. Not to mention guys brag to each other about it in the gym locker rooms, it's a bit hilarious. Even guys you would never assume to be on juice...are juicing. 

The bulging traps, acne all over the back, poor lower body development against extreme upper body deelopment their lousy no-sweat trainig compared to their sick gains, never training core, never practicing any compound lifts with free weights, using predominantly machines and silly exercises like cable pulls and wrist rotations.

As a natural lifter unless you include heavy compound lifts with free weights that evoke a little bit of fight or flight response (e.g. this weight is so freaking heavy that there is a small risk it could crush me because I'm not realying on a machine safety") and make most of your trainining based on highly anabolic exercises (squats, deadlifts, pullups, military press, pendlay rows, dips and some functional training such as gymnastic rings) there is a limit to hypertrophy (mostly newbie gains) and even higher limit on how muscular & lean can you get at the same time. That's why split training is a poor way to train for natural lifters who are not on steroids because it is not sufficiently anabolic. 

Split training was desighned by and for steroid users who are 24/7 in anabolic state from synthetic injectibles and even small volume of training is sufficient to activate muscle synthesis. Most of these guys train for a pump so they can push enough nutrients and blood into the muscle to respond quickly, the rest of the guys who want to do it clean need to go much much heavier and mostly free weights. This is a pretty solid indicator of steroid using, looking like a god while only doing cables and machines. 

Also a good indicator is, and this might sound silly but lacking the humblness and the natural poise of an experienced lifter. Sometimes you see these super jacked guys behaving like morrons in the gym, yelling at eachother, looking like they are on a cocaine (which some might be) and just acting like children. An experienced natural lifter who has acquired extreme results through decades of commited training is usually humble, solitary and will train in times when gyms are the most empty. Kinda like a lonely wiseman who will only talk wen asked question and will be staring at the ground between sets, usually not using phone as much. Most of these loud clowns with tripods and phones are on juice.

There are cases of guys with extreme genetics which violate these rules but most of us aren't that blessed 

Edited March 18 by Michael569

[CosmicExplorer]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Getting jacked is a waste of time.

And girls don't even like it. You're doing it for your own vanity.

I wouldn't say it's a waste of time if you enjoy training and it's your hobby. Girls like slightly more muscle than avarage but 26 FFMI is an overkill, no one needs that to attract girls. If you can get to low body fat% (so your face looks better) and don't look super skinny in clothes, you're golden.

 

19 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

That's why split training is a poor way to train for natural lifters who are not on steroids because it is not sufficiently anabolic. 

The most gains I've ever gotten was FBW 5x a week. Only training each muscle group for 2 sets to failure at the time. It was really suprising how much more gains I was getting when I switched from split to FBW (full body workouts)

[J J]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Getting jacked is a waste of time.

How is strength training a waste of time? Taking it to a extreme, unless you're making a good living out of it, maybe. But on an everyday level?

It improves you health, not only physically, but mentally. And when looking for a partner, an aesthetic body and good looks definetely matter. Quite a lot. 

[Michael569]

@CosmicExplorer yop! FBW is an absolute beast. I do same 6 exercises 3 times a week, go as heavy as I can for 6-8 rounds and I've had the greatest improvements in strength since my 15s when I started. Went from doing 8 reps of 90kg squats to doing 8 reps of 140kg in about 6 months doing it mostly on plant based diet, i absolutely love it, never before knew this is actually possible.

I don't even care about hypertrophy as much but love the competition with myself to get slightly better each week. 

Edited March 18 by Michael569

[mmKay]

Bodybuilding is mostly just that : building the body. 

At It's core it's Art, and Love for aesthetics . Love for symmetric proportions.

 

Those pictures are at it's essence just art. It's capturing a single moment. The pump with the lighting and the body oil and the pose and the cutting etc.

 

Just many people do it for the wrong reasons, ego, insecurity, a crutch for your self esteem, thinking it's healthy...

There are plenty of ways of healthy exercise that don't give you big muscles.

 

[Arthogaan]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Getting jacked is a waste of time.

And girls don't even like it. You're doing it for your own vanity.

Just like understanding reality could be out of vanity.

There is something beautiful in having an aesthetic body. Being an expression of beauty, discipline in a very direct way. Being a sculptor (and therefore an artist) od your own body.

Just like there is something beautiful in understanding reality.

It depends on motivation.

Many artists pursue their "passions" for appearing cool and getting their egos validated.

This particular body would much more prefer to have a beautiful, healthy, strong, flexible body than being able to paint. It's just a bias. 

 

[koops]

Yep, difficult to judge nowadays. Just stay with the pre-roids era.

Disagree with @Leo Gura on this one.

1. Girls do like jacked guys. Maybe not on the extreme level, but they like it in the Ronaldo/McGregor style, which is achievable for most guys.

2. For people who appreciate beauty, getting strong and lean is important.
If we like beautiful feminine bodies, astounding architecture, majestic songs... why not build a strong, athletic and proportionate male body? Building a great physique is a form of art in itself.

3. It will solve a lot of mental health issues for guys. They learn about their bodies, how to eat properly, how to train, build discipline, and feel more confident. 

 

[Leo Gura]

Exercise is not a waste of time, but that's not what is being discussed here.

[Basman]

Fit and lean is what girls like, which is great because it is way more achievable than trying to look like gigachad.

[Javfly33]

On 18/3/2024 at 9:19 AM, Michael569 said:

The amount of men (and women) who take steroids these days, per average gym, is higher than you would assume. Once you start to notice the signs, you can't unsee it. Not to mention guys brag to each other about it in the gym locker rooms, it's a bit hilarious. Even guys you would never assume to be on juice...are juicing. 

The bulging traps, acne all over the back, poor lower body development against extreme upper body deelopment their lousy no-sweat trainig compared to their sick gains, never training core, never practicing any compound lifts with free weights, using predominantly machines and silly exercises like cable pulls and wrist rotations.

As a natural lifter unless you include heavy compound lifts with free weights that evoke a little bit of fight or flight response (e.g. this weight is so freaking heavy that there is a small risk it could crush me because I'm not realying on a machine safety") and make most of your trainining based on highly anabolic exercises (squats, deadlifts, pullups, military press, pendlay rows, dips and some functional training such as gymnastic rings) there is a limit to hypertrophy (mostly newbie gains) and even higher limit on how muscular & lean can you get at the same time. That's why split training is a poor way to train for natural lifters who are not on steroids because it is not sufficiently anabolic. 

Split training was desighned by and for steroid users who are 24/7 in anabolic state from synthetic injectibles and even small volume of training is sufficient to activate muscle synthesis. Most of these guys train for a pump so they can push enough nutrients and blood into the muscle to respond quickly, the rest of the guys who want to do it clean need to go much much heavier and mostly free weights. This is a pretty solid indicator of steroid using, looking like a god while only doing cables and machines. 

Also a good indicator is, and this might sound silly but lacking the humblness and the natural poise of an experienced lifter. Sometimes you see these super jacked guys behaving like morrons in the gym, yelling at eachother, looking like they are on a cocaine (which some might be) and just acting like children. An experienced natural lifter who has acquired extreme results through decades of commited training is usually humble, solitary and will train in times when gyms are the most empty. Kinda like a lonely wiseman who will only talk wen asked question and will be staring at the ground between sets, usually not using phone as much. Most of these loud clowns with tripods and phones are on juice.

There are cases of guys with extreme genetics which violate these rules but most of us aren't that blessed 

Thanks for the report lol very destailed

12 hours ago, koops said:

Yep, difficult to judge nowadays. Just stay with the pre-roids era.

Disagree with @Leo Gura on this one.

1. Girls do like jacked guys. Maybe not on the extreme level, but they like it in the Ronaldo/McGregor style, which is achievable for most guys.

2. For people who appreciate beauty, getting strong and lean is important.
If we like beautiful feminine bodies, astounding architecture, majestic songs... why not build a strong, athletic and proportionate male body? Building a great physique is a form of art in itself.

3. It will solve a lot of mental health issues for guys. They learn about their bodies, how to eat properly, how to train, build discipline, and feel more confident. 

 

@koops I hit the gym but im not sure how much lineal correlation is between strength hypetrophy training and health.

Sure is better than staying st the sofa all the day, no doubt. But i have my doubts that is the best way to improve health or be "fit".

A muscular body is Only attractive because we are Still leaving in paleolithic very crude ways. 

In the same way once you become a bit conscious and you are not so obssesed about body parts, you start to see women that are not that physically voluptuose as attractive as the other ones, the same goes for men. 

Also lets not even discuss diet. Why you say "eating properly". Having to eat more is i no way healthier, for the body or for your mind. 

[cjoseph90]

13 hours ago, koops said:

 

1. Girls do like jacked guys. Maybe not on the extreme level, but they like it in the Ronaldo/McGregor style, which is achievable for most guys.

2. For people who appreciate beauty, getting strong and lean is important.
If we like beautiful feminine bodies, astounding architecture, majestic songs... why not build a strong, athletic and proportionate male body? Building a great physique is a form of art in itself.

3. It will solve a lot of mental health issues for guys. They learn about their bodies, how to eat properly, how to train, build discipline, and feel more confident. 

 

Yes i can confirm the above is very true. From a female perspective, It subconsciously communicates a few things about the Guy, and usually can be a reflection of how he carries himself in the external world. E.g he is strong, dedicated, confident, respect for himself and  a leader.

Like a lot of women i can appreciate the visual of a muscular, lean strong body. 

[Javfly33]

57 minutes ago, cjoseph90 said:

Yes i can confirm the above is very true. From a female perspective, It subconsciously communicates a few things about the Guy, and usually can be a reflection of how he carries himself in the external world. E.g he is strong, dedicated, confident, respect for himself and  a leader.

Like a lot of women i can appreciate the visual of a muscular, lean strong body. 

Not for all females. Most females are unconscious chimps as males so they Will be attracted to muscles. 

There isnt anything more dumber than spending 1 hour a day building muscle to be attractive to females. 

But thats the level of development we are in western society 🤣 (i do hit the gym precisely for the "reasons" you mention so im not denying the Truth of your statement). 

But things as dedicated or respect would be better invested in going to higuer realms of development, not to survival crude body aspects like getting laid 🤣🤣 .

And confidence is the most bs word. If one has to build muscle to be confident then one IS one hell of a fucking chimp. Not to mention confidence is another low consciousness trait.

Clarity, not confidence. All the dumb people want confidence. Smart beings want clarity and perception.

Having said that im signing off im going to lift some weights gotta appear "dedicated" for the females of western world 🤣