Spiritual communities are a disaster

[Buck Edwards]

I don't know what made me write this. But I write it with a heavy heart. Like any other thing that comes with it's own set of pros and cons, spiritual communities aren't exempt from drawbacks either. I'm not specifically talking about forums although forums are a fraction of it. I'm just saying communities in general. I have reached a point where I'm seriously contemplating whether being a part of a larger community is really worth it if the results aren't really there and if things are just getting worse with the illusion that you're on a spiritual path and you are achieving something when in reality millions of people with mental and physical problems turn to spirituality only for bypassing their real issues, are barely able to cope through life and end up being and doing worse when they get on the spiritual path. They start to rot and lose interest in life and daily activities once they begin to live in a solipsistic bubble. Instead of thriving, they start rapidly degrading. The consequences can be anywhere from suicide to mental illness to death or just living like a zombie. I'm sure people in the past have also expressed such a sentiment on this forum  before. It's a routine thing, not to mention the problem of false teachings. Things that degrade your mental well being or just take you on a path of disillusionment. You gotta do the math yourself. Are you in this for the better or are things genuinely not turning out to be the way they should. 

I was barely 9 years old when I first started with spirituality. I haven't come very far because life came in between. I devoted a significant portion of my life in chasing delusions (let's put it that way). I suffered autism at a young age and in my teens I was obsessed with spirituality and religion. I always thought I was looking for something, searching for something, there was this existential crisis like thing going on with me. I was often at my wits end. Don't get me wrong. I derived a lot of benefit from this forum itself. Leo's teachings, his videos on personal development were a great starting point. But there's a problem. Everything is not so hunky dory. I still think that I suffered a bit in the process and not in a good way. It's like "invited" suffering. I don't know if this is the inherent nature of spiritual work. But I went through phases of insanity. I didn't do psychedelics (God only knows what suffering might have resulted from that). But so far not so stellar results. I have significant mental illness. I don't know if that's interfering with my spiritual stuff. 

One thing I casually noticed in spiritual communities is the huge problem of spiritual ego. People fight a lot over what's right or wrong. There's a certain dogmatism that accompanies it. This downgrades the whole spiritual process significantly. This is not alien to any community, it's to be found in every spiritual community.

Be careful with what you decide to put your energy into. I have suffered significantly. 

 

[Buck Edwards]

I won't say that people in a spiritual community are evil per se, no that's not the issue. They're just not compatible with spiritual culture. In any spiritual community or environment you get to witness the common traps like disconnection, lack of boundaries, impractical approaches, gaslighting, power hierarchy, constant debating, one-upping, spiritual ego, spiritual bypassing, lack of harmony, lack of communication and understanding, self righteousness, spiritual narcissism, dogmatism, lack of compassion, fanatic judgement, false preaching, zero embodiment of spiritual teachings (only bla bla bla bla), god syndrome, messiah complex, cult environment, blame game, traps, solipsistic bubble, out of touch with reality, hypocrisy and insincerity, gloating. 

 

Just to name a few of the problems encountered in spiritual communities. 

And this Konstant thing where people are described as normies. As in elevating spiritual people. 

 

 

[Buck Edwards]

What principles should an ideal spiritual community adhere to? 

I think these are the principles I came up with that in my opinion a spiritual community should be able to reflect. 

• Uplifting each other 
• Keeping harmony 
• Polite behavior 
• Reduction in negativity 
• Encouraging open mindedness 
• Healing each other 
• Non judgement attitude 
• Peace keeping 
• Thoughtful debating 
• No one-upping 
• No cult like rules
• Respect for everyone 
• Working on behaviors 
• Video conferencing and meet ups. Face to face interactions are better 
• Flattened hierarchies
• No us versus them narrative 
• No messiah complex 
• Discouraging gaslighting 
• Encouraging extensive communication 
• Discouraging dogmatism 
• Fostering understanding and mutual harmony 
• Showing love 
• Embodying values 
• Working on integrity and character 
• Fostering forgiveness 
• Fostering mercy 
• Fostering kindness 
• Raising each other's vibration 
• Encouraging emotional maturity 
• Keeping community tight knit 
• Cutting down spiritual ego 
• Providing a safe space 
• Not preying on vulnerability 
• Extending support to people who suffer more 
• Having a judgement free zone 
• Fostering compassion 
• Dissolution of separation 
• Fostering Unity 
• Empathetic environment 
• Minimum use of power 
• Encouraging free expression
• Valuing one another 
• Not demonizing 
• Embodiment of love 

 

Edited March 17 by Buck Edwards

[Leo Gura]

Of course. How else could it be?

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Of course. How else could it be?

What do you mean? I didn't get you. 

[Leo Gura]

Of course spiritual communities become disasters. That's what you should expect.

Edited March 17 by Leo Gura

[Miguel1]

3 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

I suffered autism at a young age

Sorry I am just focusing on this part - but I gotta inquire:

Am I just imagining or do we have a lot of autistic people here on the forum?

I think I see people mentioning that they are autistic fairly often here.

@Buck Edwards Are you autistic anymore?

[Yimpa]

@Miguel1 there’s certainly more neurodiverse than neurotypical people on here methinks.

[Miguel1]

@Buck Edwards

But I agree with the points you made. I knew from very early on in my life that I will be a leader of some sort and a big influencer to the world. I realized in the previous years of my life that it's probably due to the fact that I got that personality type lol (ENFJ).

I got into spirituality when I was 17. I was deeply inspired by Osho. He was my first spiritual teacher. Wanted to become a leader like him in a physical community at my peak.

If it wasn't for Leo's teachings grounding me in reality the previous few years, I would have probably fallen deep into that fantasy - completely ignoring the whole notion of spiritual by-passing.

One of the strengths and weaknesses of ENFJ is deep empathy. I want to help people so much that I can easily fall into fantasies of how I'm gonna help the world and then convince myself of how much easier and simpler it is vs actuality (ignoring spiritual by-passing & the importance of burning through karma).

But as of now at 29, the fantasy of leading a physical spiritual community doesn't seem compelling at all anymore. And your post put into words very well why.

---

I'm taking this opportunity to write some side thoughts about me to clarify my own thoughts for myself (ENFJ coming active, bear with me - skip if you don't care):

I think my path is going to be Owen Cook type of work (healthy human-level self-development work) when I am still young but I will probably eventually Actually grow into Leo's type of more advanced trans-human work, sooner or later - rather than stay stuck like Owen. At least I like to think that I won't fall and get stuck into the trap Owen has fallen into but who knows.

I haven't done any psychedelics yet in my life. Will start experimenting with them once I am financially free or at least almost free.

I am also relatively a very good freestyle dancer with my own very unique dance style so I want to incorporate that art somehow into my work. Content creation is really the only idea I have atm (example: https://www.instagram.com/miguetran/reel/CygMx_etst5/ ). Maybe I can research about dance therapy and see if it is worth pursuing and teaching.

But yeah, as of right now, leading a physical spiritual community doesn't sound compelling at all. Actually, sounds like a terrible idea.

[Ishanga]

I think that for the most part, sooner or later, anything that starts out as a healthy and empowering idea and/or method when it catches on and creates momentum and popularity, with ppl joining in one big place and small places around the world the quality of it dissipates.  I saw this in Martial Arts, I was a teacher, first at my Sifu's school in my hometown (had 75 students at one time), then at the headquarters in another city (200+students), we were not a big organization but associated with one, Sifu eventually quit that organization and started his own, but I found that we had to modify the teachings so that everyone could learn something to make things easier (compared to what and how I learned in the previous generation) and we offered activities outside of the strict style we were teaching, so the place became a Mc Dojo, afterwards I quit that organization, taught on my own, and then travelled to learn another system, which was in a place that was a persons backyard and it was 10ppl or less there at anyone time training, this blew me away with how high quality it was...just using this as an example..

Isha is the best Spiritual Org I can see, I'm involved with them, not very active with them right now, but have volunteered...On the polar opposite of this sort of thing is what Osho created, I like Osho as a Spiritual Influencer, but what happened at his ashram was pretty crazy lol, at Isha its very professional, and intimate and high quality, for some of their programs you cannot just sign up and enter into it, there is a screening process in place..

Don't ever forget, once you or anyone gets on a large scale of things world wide, someone or some ppl will want to bring You down big time, what happened to Jesus is just a prime example, its still happening today, they just don't crucify you, they do other things, be wary of this! 

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

Sorry I am just focusing on this part - but I gotta inquire:

Am I just imagining or do we have a lot of autistic people here on the forum?

I think I see people mentioning that they are autistic fairly often here.

@Buck Edwards Are you autistic anymore?

Yes, I even started a post on this a while back, maybe 6mths ago because I noticed it too.

[Buck Edwards]

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

Sorry I am just focusing on this part - but I gotta inquire:

Am I just imagining or do we have a lot of autistic people here on the forum?

I think I see people mentioning that they are autistic fairly often here.

@Buck Edwards Are you autistic anymore?

I have observed that a lot of folks attracted to spiritual communities suffer from some form of mental illnesses and autism and neuro divergent populace are a huge part of it. It could be that people with significant abnormality in the brain might be producing high amounts of DMT? Just a speculative guess I'm putting out there. Other things could be that they're naturally attracted to matters of the spirit as a result of chemical circuitry in the brain that predisposes such individuals to pursuing extraordinary subjects. 

Regarding the second question, yes, I still suffer significant level of autism, however, since my diagnosis I have been keeping a lid on my behavior so that I'm not out of control with my messy way of dealing things. 

[Buck Edwards]

5 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Yes, I even started a post on this a while back, maybe 6mths ago because I noticed it too.

✌️

[Buck Edwards]

1 hour ago, Yimpa said:

@Miguel1 there’s certainly more neurodiverse than neurotypical people on here methinks.

Yes. Noticed too. 

[Buck Edwards]

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

@Buck Edwards

But I agree with the points you made. I knew from very early on in my life that I will be a leader of some sort and a big influencer to the world. I realized in the previous years of my life that it's probably due to the fact that I got that personality type lol (ENFJ).

I got into spirituality when I was 17. I was deeply inspired by Osho. He was my first spiritual teacher. Wanted to become a leader like him in a physical community at my peak.

Glad to know. 

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

 

If it wasn't for Leo's teachings grounding me in reality the previous few years, I would have probably fallen deep into that fantasy - completely ignoring the whole notion of spiritual by-passing.

Yes. Leo has shed light on it many times. 

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

 

One of the strengths and weaknesses of ENFJ is deep empathy. I want to help people so much that I can easily fall into fantasies of how I'm gonna help the world and then convince myself of how much easier and simpler it is vs actuality (ignoring spiritual by-passing & the importance of burning through karma).

Yes I definitely forgot to mention burning through karma. Apparently a lot of people sidetrack that. 

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

But as of now at 29, the fantasy of leading a physical spiritual community doesn't seem compelling at all anymore. And your post put into words very well why.

Glad. 

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

---

I'm taking this opportunity to write some side thoughts about me to clarify my own thoughts for myself (ENFJ coming active, bear with me - skip if you don't care):

I think my path is going to be Owen Cook type of work (healthy human-level self-development work) when I am still young but I will probably eventually Actually grow into Leo's type of more advanced trans-human work, sooner or later - rather than stay stuck like Owen. At least I like to think that I won't fall and get stuck into the trap Owen has fallen into but who knows.

Don't know much about the owen person. I'm mostly into spirituality and never ventured outside of it that much. 

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

 

I haven't done any psychedelics yet in my life. Will start experimenting with them once I am financially free or at least almost free.

That will be an interesting journey. 

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

 

I am also relatively a very good freestyle dancer with my own very unique dance style so I want to incorporate that art somehow into my work. Content creation is really the only idea I have atm (example: https://www.instagram.com/miguetran/reel/CygMx_etst5/ ). Maybe I can research about dance therapy and see if it is worth pursuing and teaching.

But yeah, as of right now, leading a physical spiritual community doesn't sound compelling at all. Actually, sounds like a terrible idea.

Nice to know that you love dance. Dance can be a spiritual activity too. 

[Buck Edwards]

1 hour ago, Ishanga said:

I think that for the most part, sooner or later, anything that starts out as a healthy and empowering idea and/or method when it catches on and creates momentum and popularity, with ppl joining in one big place and small places around the world the quality of it dissipates. 

Yes. It's difficult to create an empowering place. That's a powerful thought and insight. Now I realize why it's so hard to feel that empowering energy. It's tough to have that. It's almost like trying to condense God into a place. I like how you put it. Makes perfect sense now. 

1 hour ago, Ishanga said:

I saw this in Martial Arts, I was a teacher, first at my Sifu's school in my hometown (had 75 students at one time), then at the headquarters in another city (200+students), we were not a big organization but associated with one, Sifu eventually quit that organization and started his own, but I found that we had to modify the teachings so that everyone could learn something to make things easier (compared to what and how I learned in the previous generation) and we offered activities outside of the strict style we were teaching, so the place became a Mc Dojo, afterwards I quit that organization, taught on my own, and then travelled to learn another system, which was in a place that was a persons backyard and it was 10ppl or less there at anyone time training, this blew me away with how high quality it was...just using this as an example..

Interesting. Smaller the better given everyone is aligned. 

1 hour ago, Ishanga said:

Isha is the best Spiritual Org I can see, I'm involved with them, not very active with them right now, but have volunteered...On the polar opposite of this sort of thing is what Osho created, I like Osho as a Spiritual Influencer, but what happened at his ashram was pretty crazy lol, at Isha its very professional, and intimate and high quality, for some of their programs you cannot just sign up and enter into it, there is a screening process in place..

Yea the Osho thing was awkward. He was interrogated at some point I guess. 

1 hour ago, Ishanga said:

Don't ever forget, once you or anyone gets on a large scale of things world wide, someone or some ppl will want to bring You down big time, what happened to Jesus is just a prime example, its still happening today, they just don't crucify you, they do other things, be wary of this! 

Yes the message is quite clear. Thanks for helping me out. It was big help. 

[ExplorerMystic]

@Buck EdwardsIf this comment (trying to convey things from a POV that you have written above) in any way helps you then take it or just leave this blabbering.

-  Take a break from the spiritual community if it reaching to a point where it's too much/overwhelming. Everybody's genetic makeup + Brain neuron setup is different. Somebody understands it differently and when it is conveyed to you will not get it.

-  Yes “Spiritual Ego” is prevalent on this path. It simply means integration has not fully happened (This person also believes that total integration is very rare). You have to see this “Spiritual Ego” and leave them alone out of compassion as they are also on this journey. Identifying them comes with experience.

-  Remember always there is no “Spirituality Oscar” at the end of this path. As the person giving it or receiving it both are dead / disappeared / illusory (take whatever damn word you want).  The first sign of “Spiritual Ego” is a kind of chase to reach somewhere or get the “Spirituality Oscar”.

- Sometimes we look for answers for mental health & other health ailments in spiritual communities which is a deception we are creating for ourselves. Doesn’t “spirituality” mean searching for “truth” and it starts with our problems first?

-   Taking some time alone is always a good idea. By aloneness, this person doesn’t mean which brings sadness but a time spent in understanding/comprehension/insight, etc. There may be a time when you start liking the process / or it brings joy/bliss. Some deeper aspects here are that one force that we call God/Lord/Almighty/Allah etc is Aloneness itself which is shining with infinite bliss/energy etc. See word / thought shattered here because “alone” in the human world is seen as a sadistic projection. That’s why after a certain range. It becomes impossible to describe it.

-  If the Spiritual community is putting you in a Cage of Certain Techniques / Culture Behaviour / Faith & belief / Cult etc. These are enough “red signal” to re-evaluate. Some people enjoy it here. For others, spirituality means freedom, LOVE, and Compassion which in itself is "infinitude".  

Edited March 17 by ExplorerMystic

[Princess Arabia]

@Buck EdwardsYou also have to realize that just about everything in life is that way. It's all about perception. Anything that is perceivable will have it's challenges and differences of opinions. We are all looking at Reality through different lenses and it depends on the type of lens you're looking through. If you're looking through tainted lens, you will view what you're looking at as tainted. Yes, these lens can change their colors but it still depends on the state of consciousness one is in that will determine the transformation. 

You are like a projector and are projecting from within unto without. That's how consciousness and awareness works. It's impossible to be any other way. If you change what's within, what's without has no choice but to also change. That change is also going to be interpreted by a limited mind blinded by it's conditionings and programming. There are going to be upsides and downsides TO EVERYTHING. Yin and yang. What you focus on you expand so if you're focused on the downsides, you'll become aware of more downsides, not forgetting that it's the mind that is determining either sides and not the truth.

We cannot escape these polarities as long as we see ourselves as a separate entity who is in a world that is apart from us. Everywhere you go you're there and there's nothing on the outside that determines what you see when you look, it is always coming from the lens you're viewing from.

[Chadders]

@Buck Edwards I think what is absolutely crucial is that any spiritual community allows members to explore spirit in their own way and there is no right or wrong. We are all together on our own journey exploring conscious reality and the people can explore other people’s awareness's for themselves that way 

this is absolutely crucial or like you say will be toxic 

[Buck Edwards]

36 minutes ago, Chadders said:

@Buck Edwards I think what is absolutely crucial is that any spiritual community allows members to explore spirit in their own way and there is no right or wrong. We are all together on our own journey exploring conscious reality and the people can explore other people’s awareness's for themselves that way 

this is absolutely crucial or like you say will be toxic 

Yes.