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The LOC model of Ramaji & Ananda has always gotten a lot of flak on here from most, and I get how it can come across. For those who can’t relate to the numbers & what not, Rupert explains in this video how not all awakenings / Non-Dual teachers are talking about the highest truth, and in fact, most aren’t. It is essentially distilling 1000 into a 10 minute video, also has some nice points that not all awakened beings will end up as teachers, in fact the majority will carry on as “normal citizens”

@AuthenticSelf I totally accept that you have awakened to your true nature as infinite consciousness. But you still seem to believe that enlightenment would make someone's life easier. It doesn't do that directly. Rather, it enables one to love and enjoy the struggle and hardship more. It's a beautiful game Disclaimer: I am not enlightened

Hi Breakingthewall— yes, the sudden and delusion do seem really different~ hahahaaaa! First, I will address the obvious point you raise (thank you for posting!) If one posits the Absolute (before the dichotomy of the primal organization) as different than everyday ordinary existence (being delusion), I would tend to agree with you. On the other hand, if one clings to the experience of Absolute nature as a thing, and then proceeds to reject delusional existence as something else (different), one has turned both the Absolute and delusion into things— which is itself delusion. And that won't do! The point I make is that reality (Suchness, being neither ordinary nor holy), is not dependent on the experience of sudden enlightenment. It not only is reality without distinctions (absolute/delusional), it is already thus, before the first thought, without needing to experience the Absolute (by virtue of sudden illumination). It's your own mind right now. If you see reality, it's your mind. If you see delusion, that's your mind too— if that's what you are doing with it. So, "reality and powerful enlightening activity do not depend on sudden enlightenment because enlightenment and delusion are not different" means that seeing everyday ordinary situations without relying on self-reifying distinctions and awakening to your innate enlightening function is a matter of it being thus a priori without first needing to see your nature. The point of this thread is the notion that nonorigination is not simply a reference to the realm beyond time. It is the unified operational ground of being, that is one's activity as the expression of enlightening being, selflessly so, adapting according to the time, from within the midst of, and by virtue of everyday ordinary situations. Potential is itself inherent in the karmically evolutionary process we refer to as "delusion." Delusion is the created aspect of reality, just as enlightening potential is the uncreated aspect of reality. Therefore, enlightenment and delusion are not different. Those who see reality, see potential, whereas those who see delusion see things. Seeing reality and adapting potential to karmic evolution is just a manner of speaking. For those who see reality, karma and potential are already causeless nondifferentiated unity without beginning. One sees delusion with the physical eyes, but one acts by sensing reality and adapting to its potential by having awakened to one's Dharma-eye. I said enlightenment and delusion are the same. I didn't say sudden enlightenment and delusion are the same. I said that reality (Suchness) and powerful enlightening activity do not depend on sudden enlightenment (the experience of seeing your nature in terms of the Absolute). ed note: add last sentence to penultimate paragraph; add first sentence to last paragraph

I can't believe I lost Cynthia Bourgeault's new book Eye of the Heart. I had read only half of it in which she already shared where the Kingdom of Heaven is using Gurdjieff's Hydrogen scale and the Ray of creation. She said the kingdom is found at world 24. Take what I say with a grain of salt because I've slept since I read this a couple of months ago ,,,, I found it though. To translate, this would be the inner world of a person who has integrated and individuated along with whats reffered to in the Work as purifying the emotional center. This is someone who doesn't judge and is conscious to the point where they're basically incapable of commiting violence. This is one of the best descriptions I've heard in regards to higher Consciousness. A fully Awakened person is incapable of violence! They're not complainers,,, They don't bitch or fly off the handle in a reactionary way if unpleasant events are encountered in their life situation. So encountering the kingdom of Heaven is an inside job. The kingdom is within. It's good to have a journal and express oneself. Even if it does amount to bitching about something. Maybe that's what it takes sometimes to process and let it go. Whatever it is. It's also a way of letting others into your inner world. As cringe worthy as that can be at times ultimately it means integration of your personal fragmentedness. Why is that good? Its the path to having your being. To fully be yourself, flaws included. To be completely at home in yourself. There's a tricky thing in regards to being fragmented. People who are fragmented most often don't fully realise their own fragmentedness. They don't see how it leaves them at the mercy of those who are eager to manipulate them. On the path to higher awareness, forgiveness through understanding is mandatory. More awareness will not be granted if you cannot forgive those who are asleep. I found a weighted blanket on the clearance isle this morning. I thought it might help me with insomnia. The thought of Temple Grandin came to mind with her design of the squeeze chute made for the humane handling of cattle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin

I like the distinction made by some in the Fourth way Work between acquired conscience and awakened conscience. Acquired conscience is equated with morality which changes over time and between different cultures. Awakened Conscience is claimed to be the same among all who possess it. One statement that frames this is that Awakened Conscience is the intelligence of the universe. Cultures are an enforcer of acquired conscience and is usually what we all are loaded full of in our childhood conditioning to different degrees. Maybe in the future when there are cultures with a center of gravity in tier two SD, this conditioning will be closer to awakened conscience. But now I’m speculating,,,,

Did you get awakened? ( just curios) How do you cultivate that kind of burning desire?

This guy embodies spiritual materialism. He has a big ego and portrays spirituality and sexuality in shallow perverted ways. I'm not saying he hasn't awakened to some degree but overall he isn't recognising just how delusional he still is. it's a spiritual kindergarten. It's a shame he uses word Yoga... and does this... he has no idea what Yoga is...

@GreenWoods When the Buddha taught that "all effort must be made by you", he wasn't referring to the conceptual awakening that people sometimes experience on psychedelics, or in other ways. He was talking about the deeper awakening, which is the opening of your spiritual eyes, and the lifelong journey of letting go of attachments, and manifesting the unconditional Love that is the essence of who we are. I'm reading "Being Ram Dass" at the moment. He conceptually awakened through extensive experience with psychedelics, but it wasn't until many years later that he woke spiritually when meeting his guru, Maharaj-ji, and even then he spent the rest of his life integrating the implications of that awakening. The Buddha had it right. Buddhas, drugs, or any other external processes can only show you the way. Ultimately the path of enlightenment must be walked by you.

Before meeting Ramana, Papaji practiced mantra recitation for 20 years. He had had spiritual experiences where Krishna would come to him and they would talk etc. He was one of those people that Ramana likened to very dry wood - very easy to start a fire with. Gurus can't awaken you if you're not ready to be awakened.

Happy/unhappy and developed/undeveloped are dualities, so these are viewed and understood completely different from the perspective of "enlightened people". However, awakened people function in the everyday life too. They work, have prefrences, engage in relationships and so on. They may even decide that they want to improve in certain areas in their lives. The big difference is that they don't do it because of neurotic and egoistic desires to 'get somewhere' or to 'get fulfilled'. They are already complete and whole (just like everybody else), so the decision is just a simple decision. It's much more free-flowing and no additional stories and certain attachments are involved.

People who have not faced deficits to survival because of awakening aren’t very awake in my opinion. It’s a common thing after full God-Realization for me to throw my phone across the room in an attempt to break it or flat out smash it to pieces. This is just one small example out of many things. If you’re actively trying to preserve your body, possessions, reputation, and pretty much anything else that makes up your ego, you’re still not awake to the fullest degrees. Last I saw Alan Watts drank himself to death. He never claimed to be awakened though from any of the talks I’ve heard. He always referred to himself as more of a spiritual commentator. I wouldn’t doubt that his spiritual understanding and experiences could have contributed to alcoholism or suicide though. I’ve certainly experienced many dark night of the soul problems that have been potentially worsened by awakening.

@Bacher Do you feel awakened after this experience? And if yes, how would you describe your awakening? It's more in your head/heart?

Both are responsible. And both are unconscious to different degrees. Still doesn’t mean the ‘victim’ deserves to be punished for their unconsciousness... they don’t even know they are unconscious. And both had lack of self love. Now the victim has more self love and has awakened more and can see their past unconsciousness.

if you think Sam is real, then you haven't awakened from the dream where he's a character.

Any awakened being knows there's no wave dah

Hi @Leo Gura Great self reflection in your new blog video! Your insights about the importance of balancing everything in your life dynamically are very valuable. Balancing spirituality with practicality or inspiration with the cyclical nature of creativity are necessary parts of the integration of expanded consciousness when maturing as an awakened, empowered and self-actualized being. I am noticing these themes in my own development and resonate with your messages. We are all in our own unique journeys awakening more into the inherent creative freedom of our true divine nature and I am very grateful for the wisdom and clarity you and many other great teachers reflect to us. This is a short illustration of how that freedom can be experienced by Bentinho Massaro, talking about the concept of 'true simultaneity':

I agree that a narcissist is also someone who doesn't want to hear that they're at fault. Same coin, different side. Sometimes you jab, sometimes you cash in. How do you know when you've transcended it? You see the whole dynamic, and just know. And don't get triggered - or identify with the trigger. I also agree that until you've become enlightened/awakened/mature everyone's got it to some degree and in some situations with different people. It's just ego, in plain old spiritual terms. Calling it narcissism is just the therapist catching up with the monk.

Define awakening. People can awaken to the unreality of reality on psychedelics alone. Do you want more? Ram Dass took psychedelics for years, but didn't experience a deeper awakening until he met Maharaj-ji, whose love awakened him spiritually. Do you still want more? Even after these awakenings, there is always karma to burn. Attachments to be dissolved. Even-mindedness to be developed. Unconditional love to be realized. Nobody, not psychedelics, nor the best guru, can do this for you. The spiritual work can only be done by you. Why do the work? Because, despite the difficulty of the journey, lucid living is so much better than the inevitable suffering of conditional survival.

What he teaches, the excitement thing is pretty advanced stuff. You could mess up hard playing into that game. Thats like type 3 civilization stuff. I tried a few times and it works but you need to be established in non duality and have a hardcore faith. If you have people around you, they will think you are insane... Just like if you awakened. Same stuff. That teaching will be good to apply in the future or if you have some money back up. He has made a living of that idea cuz of how fantastic and appealing it is to the mind. Imagine working at a Bank and suddenly finding your soul highest excitement is to be a high class chauffeur. My family didnt allow me and just interrupted the process... I think darryl wants to help, but is a joke at the same time. I used to be just as excited as you when I found him, lol.

I really liked what Anna Brown said in one of her video. We are often said "you can wake yourself up" and this can lead to the self/ego thinking it needs to "change" itself into an "awakened self". As if being awake is a property of the self. "Oh my god! I'm not awake right now! Ok gotta try harder! Ok let's go". None of this leads to awakening. I think it seems random because it doesn't happen when you try hard but it happens when you stop trying or stop thinking there is a self that needs to awaken.

I think, the spine should be vertically straight during meditation. Because, any mystical experience or awakening is caused by the passing of atleast a streak of Awakened Kundalini through the central channel called sushumna upto to the top of the head called Brahma Randhra. I once read that there are more than 800,000 different yoga asanas that one can use for meditation. But, may be some of the poses are used for directing the kundalini into different parts of the body so that it can cleanse those parts through its flow. The Lotus position may be the generic one which is suitable for many which is helpful in allowing the kundalini to pass through the central sushumna.

@Leo Gura What if you have both motivations? You want to avoid suffering and at the same time you seek Truth for its own sake? Is it then possible to find Truth/ get awakened?

“Buddhas don’t practice nonsense.” ― Bodhidharma Vipassana is a very old meditative technique, which was developed by Buddha, following his own breakthrough while sitting under the Bodhi tree. As Buddhism migrated northward and eastward from India, various schools of vipassana were created. Despite there being some variations among them, they all claim to follow the original teaching of Buddha. Vipassana means ‘insight meditation’. Its purpose is to uncover the illusory nature of existence (defined by the ‘three marks of existence’: pain, impermanence and no-self). Before practicing insight meditation, an adept is supposed to develop mindfulness and concentration (samatha) through, for instance, the practices of anapana (concentration on breathing through the nose) or abdominal breathing. After he has concentrated his mind, he can then proceed either to watching the mind and bodily sensations or to vipassana itself. The assumption underlying vipassana practice is that one becomes liberated through realizing the empty nature of existence. But what is the connection between having insight into impermanence and spiritual actualization? Is there really a relationship of cause and effect here? There is not; the whole thing just doesn’t add up. Although vipassana creates the illusion of being scientific, it is surprising to realize how dogmatic it actually is. A Christian believes Jesus will save him and a Buddhist believes there is no-self (anatta). Vipassana is just another doctrine, another mental fabrication, which doesn’t point to reality at all. An adept can convince himself that there is no-self by contemplating the empty nature of all the elements (the five skandhas) arising in consciousness. Through this, he may even reach the point where he actually ‘experiences’ no-self. But, in fact, the mind experiences whatever it conditions itself to believe in. What these contemplations truly reveal are the illusory nature of lower consciousness and the falseness of the unintelligent contemplator. If vipassana is useful at all, it is because it can make a person more conscious of the facts that he is totally fragmented and incomplete. It does not show us the nature of reality; it reveals to us the emptiness of ignorance. From an existential standpoint, it is true we have no self prior to awakening. But it is wrong then to conclude there is no self in the essence of our being; there isn’t one there because people are simply too unconscious to have developed – or awakened – their higher identity. Their self actually has to be born, not foolishly negated. Why do we enter the spiritual path? What is really missing from our life? What is the true cause of our suffering, our real pain? We suffer, not because it is the nature of life and impermanence, but because we are so miserably lost and disconnected from our pure nature. We suffer, not because we haven’t realized there is no-self, but because we do not have a self yet. Our self has to be brought into existence, actualized, born through our spiritual awakening. As such, the preconceptions of vipassana are in conflict with the very thing that can free us from our pain – the awakening of our soul. The fact that thousands of seekers sit in vipassana retreats contemplating impermanence or observing their sensations instead of actually meditating, is just sad. What it tells us is that humanity is simply very unevolved. A seeker may be clever and may understand the exceedingly complicated principles of Buddhist philosophy, but is this really wisdom? These concepts have been born through excessive philosophizing in overly intellectual environments, where monks apparently had nothing better to do than analyze trivial things rather than find a clear path to enlightenment. To be intelligent is to aspire to gain the right knowledge: knowledge which is directly useful in the task of finding peace and realizing our true self. When people sit in retreat for ten days, they can certainly develop mindfulness as well as some semblance of calm, through creating a sense of detachment from the contents of their neurotic minds. This may be an acceptable practice for unconscious people, or for those who have no real aspiration to know themselves, but it should be made clear that this is not meditation; from a spiritual perspective it is an abomination. While these types of practices may be of therapeutic value for some, they cannot in any way manifest awakening. Moreover, when done to excess they are actually spiritually harmful. For instance, through watching one’s mind, breath or sensations too much, one develops an overly active observer. Many vipassana practitioners become addicted to watching; they cannot enter the state of meditation, because their attention is constantly drawn toward objects. Furthermore, year after year of ‘watching’ turns one into a robot; it slowly kills one’s very life force, passion and inspiration to live, drying up the flame of creative participation. It is better not to meditate at all than to do it wrongly; doing the wrong practice is playing with fire. In order to open the state of meditation, one has to get in touch with one’s pure subjectivity. Pure subjectivity does not manifest from watching anything or through seeing the illusory nature of the mind and existence. From a higher perspective, the mind is not illusory at all. It is what it is, and when we think from our true self, it is real. What is unreal is that very watcher who is trying to gain clever insights without having a clue who he is, and without even having the aspiration to find out. The one who is unreal is the one who wants to have insight into reality, but without first becoming real himself. The basic assumptions of vipassana are not only incorrect, but spiritually damaging. They are obstacles to our awakening, which stand in the way of our path and point us in the wrong direction. They block our potential for actualizing our soul, because they keep us living in denial of our individual existence. In striving to reach nirvana by self-negation, one begins to live in a barren land of negative emptiness, exiled even further from the path back to the light of the self. A true seeker must activate his spiritual intelligence in order to decode his real purpose. He should not just conform to concepts his mind finds convincing. He should see his path from the perspective of his soul, from that very self he is growing into, for he is the seed that is awaiting to give birth to his own future. If he cannot do this, he will fail to realize his potential or to fulfill his very purpose – and that future may never come to him. So, why did Buddha teach vipassana if there is no clear link between this practice and our awakening? Firstly, it seems that as a teacher, Buddha desired to reach out to a large number of people. Being wise, he saw the low level of evolution of humanity as a whole and, perhaps, tried to compromise by devising a system of teaching and practice that even seekers of low intelligence and potential could relate to. It is very likely Buddha also had a secret teaching of much higher quality for his more advanced disciples. As the story goes, at the end of his life, Buddha gave a final discourse where, instead of talking, he just held up a perfect lotus flower. All of the monks were confused, except Mahakashyapa – his closest disciple – who just smiled. Buddha then said: ‘What can be said I have said to you, and what cannot be said, I have given to Mahakashyapa.’ This has been called the Flower Sermon: the direct pointing to reality as it is, beyond concepts. For Kashyapa the flower was neither empty nor impermanent – it was real, a true flower of the absolute reality. One may argue that that one has to go through the process of vipassana first, in order to be able to receive a higher teaching. But this is like walking east when your destination is west. Vipassana might have been a useful tool in its time to help seekers of low consciousness to evolve, but it is not relevant anymore; it is an outdated technology of evolution and meditation. True vipassana – which could very well have been the secret teaching of Buddha – does not lead to insight into the three marks of existence, but insight directly into our pure subjectivity. The objective of spiritual teaching is to help human souls awaken, so they can fulfill the purpose of their creation. The current proliferation of vipassana courses are not teachings – they are the blind leading the blind. But then, if most seekers lack the basic sincerity and discrimination to see this, perhaps it is their path after all. Anadi

I don't know if there is infinite awakening literally. But there are many degrees of them for sure. For example, many so called awakened people are not actually conscious of what God is. Because that requires deeper awakening. Exactly! Yup, where else could they come from but your imagination? You are God imagining a world. It's very similar to how video game rendering works, except the computer doing the rendering is also just imaginary! That is the ultimate illusion. That is a fantasy of yours. What I am saying is that you can absolutely verify that only you exist and everyone else is imaginary. This is not a matter of disproving solpsism. This is a matter of proving it. You can do that since you are all there is! See how elegant it is? You don't need to crawl into my head to check, you just need to become conscious that "Leo's head" is a fantasy. Which you can do if you are seeious enough. Yes, it's hard to accept because it's so radical. Yes, exactly. You see, that is how God fools himself into buying the illusion. God fools you with your compassion and care for others. Your desire to help others and comfort them is a huge part of the illusion you have spun for yourself. This emotional hook keeps you locked in the dream. The dream would not feel real unless it had powerful emotional hooks. What is a more powerful emotional hook than seeing your daughter get raped? God is a trickster of the highest order. God uses every emotion against you to fool you. Just a trick of God. Of course not. You don't even have a dog. You just invented your dog right now! Correct Take some 5-MeO-DMT No There is only ONE perspective. Yours. It's about energy efficiency. God saves energy my only creating ONE bubble. Why would God waste energy on others when they are not needed? Seriously. Think about it. Not missing. They were always just aspects of your absolute perspective. No You tell yourself this to stay locked into the illusion. God sees all. What you see now is all that God sees. God cannot hide anything from itself. You are talking to yourself, obviously. Nothing else could happen. Yes, because you resist it. If you accept it, it's so easy. My pleasure Look, what I am saying does not preclude you from visiting other worlds, so to speak. You can get on a rocket ship and fly to Mars explore it and it will feel real. And you might even meet some aliens there, fuck one of them, and have a baby together. But all that will just be happening as your experience. It is a dream, but it is also Absolute Truth -- if you are conscious enough. Yeah, you break free of being lost in the fantastical mind. Spira, for example, believes in other minds as real. He's not conscious that he is imagining them. Shinzen does not understand God or Infinity. Ramaji is deluded as fuck with his 1000 system and his diety worship.

They aren’t talking about any specific type of suffering. It can be emotional, existential, or any other kind. Ultimately suffering is eradicated by living in a higher state of consciousness. Once in a state like what some awakened people might have made permanent for themselves, likely through meditation, I was taking a shit at my friend’s house. His bathroom smells like a rancid overdose of cat shit as he always leaves them closed in that room. Instead of experiencing suffering due to perceiving this smell as bad, I actually could kind of enjoy the aroma. I had no more judgment around it. It was merely a sensation like anything else. Higher states of consciousness = more love and acceptance for experience/existence, especially those things you wouldn’t normally tolerate at a regular level of consciousness.