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Exactly. So if you, as god, have decided to have this experience, is it not egoic to seek full enlightenment? not a way to try to escape from this experience? . you as god have created very firm barriers that create a separate identity. Why dissolve them permanently?

What he calls full enlightenment is very different from Leo's version of full enlightenment

Adyashanti had an emotional, passionate talk on racism and BLM just a couple weeks ago, you can find it on his Youtube. Plus again, deconstructed worldview is equivalent to or atleast part of high spiral development, so if what you were saying were true, this would be speaking for their spiral development. Again, you keep projecting and assuming all kinds of things about these teachers, placing them on the spiral according to the culture they came from and how lovey vs aggressive they teach. This is flawed. I’d argue many of the teachers you confidently placed on blue and green, ARE actually turquoise. IF they are really fully enlightened, to the standard I hold full enlightenment, which includes deconstructed worldview and transcendence of fabrication.

Here’s where I disagree with both of you. Remaining belief in mental programming = not full enlightenment, plain and simple. This whole discussion stems from a muddied, unnuanced and low standard for enlightenment. We need to agree on the terms and take multiple stages of enlightenment into account for this discussion to even make sense.

I agree it always seemed to me Leo had a hard on for anti materialism radical open-minded magicks and mysticism at that time and threw it into turquoise, when not particularly relevant to the actual essence of turquoise. I disagree with there being no correlation with awakening. You seem to be throwing all “enlightened” people into one pot. Let’s remember there’s multiple facets and multiple stages, and hold full enlightenment to a higher standard. Peak consciousness and unity experiences are filtered yes. Hence purple shamans and blue mystics. But full liberation involves seeing all standpoints, beliefs and mind content as fabricated and empty - the kind of deconstruction that doesn’t just happen and stick with a peak experience, imo this results in fundamental upwards movement on the spiral, quite fkin quickly too. I’m perplexed though, that you’ve been on this forum for so long, and accept and understand spiral dynamics well enough to make this post, but still evaluate yourself at blue. Can you elaborate?

You might not be aware of this... but everything you are going through is actually happening in reverse. Backwards. You are remembering everything into actuality. You are being retracted back into Absolute Zero. There's nothing you can do about it, really. It's all you are meant to do. The Shift happens when you let yourself become totally devoured by 'The Great Nothing'. He who cannot be named will then (not) step through and (not) come out the other side of... The Light - as Light. The Non-Nothing. The Non-NoSelf. The Realized. The fully initiated and activated. The Awake. The Enlightened. The Ascended. That's what 'Enlightenment' truly is. It's stepping through the Light. Quite Literally. If everything you can perceive - think, sense and breathe doesn't turn into infinite, pure white - it's not full Enlightenment. Just a glimpse perhaps. A breath of consciousness. Some might even be so unused to a quite mind and the effortlessness of being...that they assume the release of the stored junk in their fields is what enlightenment is. It is absolutely amazing and truly freeing, yes. Really beautiful. But not Enlightenment. Only Light is Enlightenment. You see 'Nothing' because you are approaching The Light. It is blinding your senses. Melting them down, even. As long as you can observe 'it' from a safe distance, or even observe at all... You are still walking backwards. Still going through the disintegration process. Remember now; if you do not not take this note that does not not exist seriously... Not Nothing will happen. Regardless. The Nothingness in me does not recognize The Non Nothingness in No You. ?

Thx for listening to it mate. Yeah there definetly is clear differences in the way they teach. Yeah the seeking energy stops when you awaken. There are still contractions of this separate self within the body after awakening and the practice then is not to seek for full enlightenment. That would be delusion. The practice is to relax these contractions as they come up. Thank man and good luck to you too.

I listened to the videos and I get exactly what part you're talkin about...❤ I don't think there is an answer to this.. that seeking energy either dies or it does not... either instantaneously or over time. Here it was like an initial energy collapsing upon the recognition that 'I' was the seeking energy and it wasn't a real entity.... then overtime it felt like more seeking energy fell away because there was no one holding it up any longer. One thing that was noticed is a lot of these teachers teach from the point of view that there is a separate individual that can find something in the future called enlightenment... Tony Parsons Jim Newman Andreas Muller and a few other non-duality teachers recognize that the sense of self is illusory from the beginning and the belief that there is a separate individual that can attain something called Full Enlightenment in the future is just perpetuating the belief in the separate 'self' and keeping the illusion alive. Wow it definitely is a pathless path right good luck to you my brother ❤

Can you with a few words explain what he is talking about? This death thing? I have watched enough of that A-guy, can't really learn anything more from I feel like, so cba to watch him. (may be wrong, but thats how I feel, got other things to do). "The I-thought might disappear when full enlightenment happens that I don't know." How does this align with "awakening has already happened" ?? To me awakening and full enlightenment is pretty much one and the same thing, ... but not to you, huh?

Do you actually know that though? Maybe you haven't reached full enlightenment? I know thoughts and emotions still come up. Here is a video about this that I'm refering to

@WaveInTheOcean I mean the identification with thoughts and emotions. Thoughts doesn't completely dissappear. The I-thought might disappear when full enlightenment happens that I don't know.

What's the point then, if when the body dies then you'll reach the full enlightenment totally?

Well, there is an important disctinction here, because although my Kundalini has risen to the top, it is not yet lodged in the Crown chakra. I can raise it with some effort and keep it there for a while, but then it descends again, usually after an hour. Full enlightenment would be the ability to keep the Kundalini lodged in the crown permanently, but very few people have achieved that. Such people are known as Jivanmukta, Boddhisattva or Saints. In art they are usually depicted with a halo around their head, to indicate their permanently illuminated state. According to Gopi Krishna, a person would need to keep their Kundalini raised and lodged in the Crown Chakra for three days and nights. I once got quite close during the summer solstice, but I'm not quite there yet. When my Kundalini is dormant and resting in the Muladhara, I am just like anybody else, a completely normal person. I do get some special abilities when I raise my Kundalini, but it takes some effort. In my case, I have some healing abilities and have spontaneously exhibited incidents of clairvoyance and precognition, as well as interaction and communication with higher beings. Now, it is important to note, that even when the Kundalini serpent itself is dormant and resting, there is in fact a stream of energy that is constantly moving from the genital area along the spine and into the brain. This phenomenon is known as Urdhvareta and is much sought after by Tantrikas. It has a physical aspect, because I produce no semen, it is sucked up into the spinal fluid and absorbed by the brain. In terms of my normal state of mind, it is not that different from everybody else's, I am perhaps calmer and more content than most people and my material wants and needs are much diminished. Still, I have to work and pay my bills, just like everybody else. I have developed my own method of meditation, after much experimentation and just stuck with what works best for me. There is nothing interesting or noteworthy about it, no special positions or mantras or anything like that. I simply practice letting go and allow Shakti to rise in me and work through my system, activating and clearing all the energy centres one by one. Depending on the kind of day I've had (stress is a serious hindrance to the activation of Shakti) it will usually take from a half hour to an hour to reach a state in which Shakti is fully flowing and infusing every cell of my body with light energy. The sensation when this is achieved in indescribable, but could perhaps best be compared to a constant, unceasing orgasm, interlaced with feelings of love, benevolence, compassion and an inflow of divine wisdom. It is usually at this point when I connect to heavenly beings and interact with them. The clearing process, before I can reach this Shakti-infused state is accompanied by periodic convulsions, as energetic muck, which accumulates during the stresses of the day is cleared. If I'm out in public, the convulsions are barely perceptible, but when at home alone, I allow them to be more intense, for a more thorough cleansing. During this process, my testicles and prostate are overactive and are constantly pumping nervous energy into my brain, via the spinal cord. It is a bit like being electrocuted, I suppose, except extremely pleasant and joyful. Only sexual metaphors can do it justice. I did practice some Hatha Yoga (as well as Kung Fu and Tai Chi) in my youth, but not on a very serious level. Probably, it was my lack of preparation and guidance from an experienced teacher or Guru that led to many problems down the road, as my Kundalini awakened. However, all these techniques, whether Tantric, Yogic or Breathwork, are all really just preparation. The real deal is working with the Goddess and allowing her to rise in you. I take a theistic approach to awakening / enlightenment and emphasize the importance of surrendering to a higher power.

The problem with questions like this -- although I like the question -- is that no matter what answer I give, it will not be the Absolute Truth and therefore it will not satistify you. Yes, you are the Self (/God/Consciousness/Etc.) imagning your own ego and all other egoes and the world. Not only are you imagning it, you are also the substance of that/your imagination. You are the creater, the knower, the substance of all experience. You are One as the Self. Nothing is outside You. Anyway. Yes, from the PoV of an ego other egoes have their own separate thought processes. From the PoV of the Self/God, it is all ONE though - no separation. See, I am back into WaveInTheOcean-consciousness-mode now. I am not bathing in God-consciousness as I were during the peak of my last 2C-B-trip. So naturally I cannot --- as God, cos I'm always God, even though my true God-Consciousness is currently slightly veiled because I'm alive and living as a human being/I'm in human form -- have access to other people's PoV in my current consciousness. It's possible that the more enligthened/selfless you become, the more you will in some limited form have access to so called super-natural abilities such as mind-reading etc. I'm not there yet, even though I would say I'm pretty good at reading people none-the-less=) There are some naive dudes who will claim that actual enligthenment is a permanent state of Absolute God-Consciousness. However it is retarded -- sorry to use that word, but it is -- to believe in this, because Absolute God-Consciousness is only possible through temporary peak mystical experiences or actual physical biological death (these two things are the same, experience-wise). It is retarded, namely, because if you were to find a person who's in Absolute God-Consciousness 24/7, that would then for example imply that - that person litterally could roll a dice and say what it would be, before you opened the cup, every single time - that person litterally could mind-read other people's minds to exact precision, every single time and many other things that are not fully possible within the dualistic laws of living human life. Laws that You created, of course. Make no mistake. Also make no mistake, I'm open to the possibility that some people are so enlightened -- Jesus, Buddha, Ramana Maharshi etc -- that they almost can do these things I just said are not _fully_ possible :-) Full enlightenment is the opposite of Life: Death. All living human people can "only" approach Full Enlightenment in human form. We can never get there 100%. Yet I'd still say I'm "fully" enlightened in the sense that I am now completely aware of the fact that I'm God in all my experiences, and that all I experience is me (God). I know that. I'm aware of that. But I'm not claiming I'm in God Consciousness 24/7. I am not. None are. Don't be fooled. People who believe enlightenment equals a state of Absolute God-Consciousness 24/7 are people who have not (yet) tried to actually bathe in Absolute God-Consciousness. Simple as that :-) ------------------------- Anyway. Yes there is only one Now. And it is Yours/God's/The Self's . Yes, indeed. Time is an illusion - but see, so is everything that is "distinct": anything you can find in maya/life/mind is an illusion. There exist no things. Only the Now/God's Happening is real. And see, within "The Infinite Happening of God"/"The Now" there exists illusions such as separate minds/egos, and time and trees and cars. There do. They are just not real in the Absolute Sense. Nothing is real in the Absolute Sense, except God of course! " Other POVs with other NOWs implies objective reality, since they exist outside of this present moment this ego (my ego) experiences but since everything exists as a probability how is it possible? " You are being confused. You are confusing things. And of course you are! How could you not confuse things? All non-enlightened beings will make confusions when discussing the Absolute/God. I did so too before my 2CB-trip two days ago. Contemplating/reading/listening to gurus can only take you so far. The limits of language. The laws of duality prevents you from getting it fully, until you let go and fully absorb God's gift (that is: your own gift) of removing the veiled glasses (= ego, mind) and thus DIRECTLY EXPERIENCE YourSelf/God. Objective reality / subjective reality is a dualism that ultimately must collapse like all other dualisms. To be arrogant, this is even an easy one;) Reality is subjective-objective There is only one Now. Nothing and everything exists outside your present moment. That is a paradox. But both perspectives are true. That nothing outside your present moment exists (the Now is the Truth) is true. That everything exists outside your present moment (reality is Absolute Infinite) is also true. HOW CAN THAT BE? Answer: God. God loves paradoxes. See: In order for you to not see your true nature, there has to paradox embedded into your existence/present experience. Your ego experiences nothing. Your ego doesn't exist, so it naturally cannot experience anything. There is only one thing in reality that can experience 'stuff'. That One Thing = Consciousness You = The Fabric And Structure of Reality Itself = The Self = God! End of discussion. ---------------------- I stumbled upon this: Leo's most profound talk in a way. Let's get that bread.

Soooo, did my three day retreat. Didn't go too bad. Little extra text here but not too long ♥️ Held the retreat in my bedroom, only left to shower and shit lol. Made food and juice for three days. Plan was to sit for 3 hours at a time, rotating through Kriya Yoga, self enquiry and do nothing. Did from Monday morning to Wednesday 9:30 pm. Quickly found out that my legs wernt the problem, my back was. I thought, "holy shit there's no way in hell I'm gonna be able to literally sit in the same position all day" so I alternated one hour meditation technique, one hour back stretches and sitting silently on a chair. And did that every hour, cycling through the techniques. At some point I decided to make my cycle Kriya yoga, Concentration, Self enquiry. Did a 20mg 5meo trip at 9pm first night, felt kinda weird...quite hard to say what happened, my bed sheets felt like they started crawling up on me haha. I did another 20mg hit soon after, not bad. Second day did the same meditation cycles smoked a big ass bowl of 3 generous servings of 10mg (30mg 5meo). Instantly started to see the barrier between reality and imagination fade but it was so fast. Id compare it to sticking your head out a car window at 200mph in a sandstorm for 5 minutes hahahah. I looked at my table and it was dancing about SOOOOO MAD lol. I was able to concentrate on it a bit. Then final day my back was quite sore, but stretches helped. Concentration was getting good, started feeling parts of my past heal. Messages coming from God to me and knowledge. I cried a bit here and there, I have a new found value for my family and friends ♥️ same meditation cycles, did 2, 20/25mg 5meo trips (smoked) something really weird happened here. It was nearly like I could control it. I smoked 20mg and felt absolutely nothing.......then another 20mg and boom super sensitivity. Then I did another 25mg hit later the last day. All in all, I didn't meet God but I know I've grown. I don't know what it is, or how the fuck I'm gonna discover it...but I know for sure I've grown. I feel...good. I feel matured. I am kinda upset about the fact that I cannot plug 5meo, I have a feeling that trip would be so beautiful man...damn. I'd also be lying if I said I wasn't confused more but that doesn't matter, I'll keeping hitting it harder and harder until it breaks. The 5meo smoked is just so fast there was one point when I smoked 25mg and the sensitivity was amazing, I left my body. Really something. So a few points and questions. I started hearing the sound of a rattlesnake lots for the full three days nearly in fact. I heard it when I contemplated deeply and remember the coiled serpent in the spine holding me to this Earth and also the snake in garden of Eden. It felt, deeper, than just my imagination. Anyone have any similar experiences? At this point my main signs of progress are subtle. Like maturing in my character, strengthened will power and discipline/focus. I was very VERY focused when I was questioning the what it means for something to "be real" at the end. Other results. When I look at something now, it's like I can see more...like in a slightly higher definition. And I'm much more aware ?? I have this weird thing now where my presence disarms everyone. And I'm aware of it. Kinda sounds strange but...yeah. also starting to just barely grasp that, unless I hold something as a belief, is it not real. I have a question @Leo Gura do you alternate between meditation and not meditating? I couldn't do SDS's because of my back pain. (Conclusive summary: happy with my 3 day 5meo retreat. The 7 day one will be even better ♥️ gonna aim for 15 days. I'm also not discouraged about my confusion at all...I will never stop ever ever ever until I have made significant progress to full enlightenment.) The image of 5meo I've included was the one when I did 3 generous scoops of 10mg. That was powerful. Mad colours and things floating in the air. My table was dancing like mad

Q: Still I have to repeat my very simple question: who makes the distinction between sin and virtue? M: He who has a body, sins with the body, he who has a mind, sins with the mind. I don't know why I'm thinking back to my preteen years so much lately. I remember New Year's Eve on 1999. Wait. No I don't. It's a mix of jumbled memories. Maybe other New Year's Eves. Gel pens. Journaling. Deep depression. Wanting the journal to be pretty, acceptable for others to read and not wanting to write anything like I was thinking. I remember going to an outdoor sports meet for my sister. I was bored and had a beanie baby bear and I tossed it in the air and caught it. I tossed it up really high and it hit some man square in the head. I can't remember how he reacted but he did. I was so guilty and embarrassed for it that I felt awful the whole rest of the event and every time I thought of it feeling awful. Everything that happened like that felt to me like a guilt I'd never be able to shake off. Eventually hermitism became a coping strategy for this. Hating people yourself is the only way when you love them too much think for other people so much you can't be around them. Loving people is the only way when you hate them too much. Do I even remember that? Why recall it? It's not that I deny it, but that, there's nothing there to really remember. "3 types of enlightened ones Three types of enlightened ones: 1. Samma-sam-buddha = One who rediscovers the teachings and teaches the masses as the historical Buddha did (Siddhattha Gotama). 2. Paccekabuddha = A silent buddha. One who attains full enlightenment, but does not teach others. 3. Arahant = Fully enlightened person, who might teach others, but not as the one who rediscovered the teachings, just as one who learned it from a current dispensation." I AM SAM. I AM SAM. SAM I AM. THAT SAM-I-AM! THAT SAM-I-AM! I DO NOT LIKE THAT SAM-I-AM! DO WOULD YOU LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM? I DO NOT LIKE THEM,SAM-I-AM. I DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM.

@Zanoni Interesting is this identification with the transcendence same as what is considered full enlightenment (or elimination of identiciation)? Or is it like a sort of pseudo enlightenment?

@Javfly33 Valid point, mostly for Pyschedelics though shaktipat is done consistently until the person reaches perceived full enlightenment. However, also for pyschedelics it seems that your baseline of consciousness rises from the one you had before the peak experience. I don't think that once you are already enlightened (or in general) you require practices to align yourself with truth, do you? I dont think that you even need them to embody enlightenment either. Also does one need to be in the action of doing practices (in raising of your consciousness) to "hold in place" a higher level of consciousness?

@Nak Khid That is fair So another reason why people don't pursue these options is because they think its bullshit Theres hundreds, thousands maybe tens or hundreds of thousands, etc that beg to differ. Also I won't miss this opportunity to ask you what someone asked me before. What do you think placebo is? @Nak Khid That's true your right I dont recall if Leo or other pyschedelic users have said that they are enlightened or just had awakening experiences. However, I believe Martin Ball claims to have full enlightenment.

@Inliytened1 WOW thanks for the info and for reading Interesting full enlightenment is dead, LOL. Good to know you can have some sober. I just have HORRIBLE concentration and focus. Ill switch like a couple techniques in just a 30 min meditation do nothing because my mind just can't focus on one technique, so i smoke weed or I'll really never make progress. It feels chemical (been diagnosed with severe ADD at 15yo). Even when I do a concentration practice, I can never do it or grow from it really. How focused are you before the sober nondual states emerge? How long have you been meditating? Concentration practice?

It's a Technic which PROMISES awakening and full enlightenment if taken seriously and constantly practiced. I'm really curios of Your insights on that. Please share what You think and feel about Vipassana? Much Love.

@Waken I imagine that is correct, yes It all comes down to frequency. It's literally what determines how frequent appearance is. In other words; how many frames you're able to perceive and how fast. When you reach a certain frequency tho (full enlightenment and above) you can experience a complete stopping of shifting. All the frames are frozen and static right in front of "your face". That's what "no time" truly is. No movement whatsoever. No continuum. No Breath, even. Only pure crystallized Light. It completely changed how I view and understand everything.

There is a lot of fantasy not just on this forum but in particularly Western New Age conceptions and belief systems of spirituality that the path of Enlightenment/Liberation/Awakening and so forth (and there are many ways you can frame that as it’s not set in stone as some universal as to what it is and entails). One primary fantasy is that spirituality is only love, light, bliss, etc. and just being in states of bliss, samadhi, etc. There are many people who can get into such states and still be very deluded as to what they’re really doing and about both their own self and ego (those are not the same). The degree to which we truly integrate and transcend our self and ego is to the degree to which we can acknowledge our outright capacity for being a hellish being. For example: regardless of our race, heritage, skin color, ethnicity, etc. if you can’t see your text an inner racist, there’s a part of you you can’t see. People, particularly people who have been raised in post modern societies, have no clue about their own capacity to have ethnocentric tendencies because of course it’s denied, repressed, and suppressed which where you get the collective liberal shadow of arrogance and passive aggressive violence. Another example which I personally really like which was a real breakthrough insight: if you see a school shooter, notice how that makes you feel because you ARE capable of such an act. On a surface level, we can that individuals within societies like the US react which such hate and vitriol (which is often denied in the name of “goodness” and “justice”) because they lack higher compassion. Whats left out though is that the reason people lack that basic compassion for that school shooter is because they assume they themselves aren’t capable of such an act and therefore cannot feel any empathy for that shooter had they been put in a place in life where those life situations would’ve made that same act, at minimum, very tangibly possible for them. What I’m saying though is not a mere intellectual or visualization exercise to try and “put yourself in another’s shoes”. Rather what I’m saying is to recognize that you already are in their shoes but you don’t know. If we can’t see how we TOTALLY have our own egocentric Donald Trump, inner rapist, inner racist, shooter, and also all the Golden Shadows as well (which will still feel disgusting or hideous), you’re going to not only miss full enlightenment, you’re just going to potentiate more harm and likely make a mess (if you do start getting far in this work). We’re in age of great polarization where people are very deluded of just how destructive things are likely to get. The more developed you are, the more destructive you can be. The more destructive you can be, the greater the responsibility you need to take on if what you want is a more conscious, awake, responsible, effective, evolved, inclusive, compassionate, and truly loving world.

Hi guys, can you get enlightened/awakened, if you pursue it as a way out. You pursue it because you want to end your suffering and your struggles you have in this limited kind of life. So is it possible to reach full enlightenment even when you are not interested in truth, but rather want to live unconditionally happy and you have enough of this material life and because of that you pursue it? So its a more egoic and shallow kind of approach towards the ultimate goal of liberation/awakening. thanks guys I hope Leo will give me an answer aswell

Full enlightenment is a paradoxical state, so of course one label doesn't do it justice, but the point is not to have an accurate map but to embody the state. You can have a "more" accurate label of "nonduality with duality" or as Ramaji says "transcendental duality" (i.e. attempting to capture the paradox) but it's still just a label, a map. Until you experience the state, it means little. So of course, non-duality is a relative label, i.e. compared to the empirical ego, "body-bounded-me vs. the rest of creation" mundane duality, it is an experience of non-duality. All labels are dualistic by nature, since you can append a minus/not symbol to any label. So you can put a "not" in front of whatever map tries to capture the paradox. You know you've arrived at full enlightenment when you begin to experience what can best be described as a "paradoxical, total-let-go state." So, take labels for what they are: they are not transcendental and universal absolutes, but rather useful tools for certain contexts. Yes - ALL labels, including critiques of labels with attempts at "better" labels.