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These religions actually tell you that if you commit suicide you go to hell. But those that do say committing Jihad grants you heaven actually do lead to people interpreting that as an invitation to blowing themselves up together with others.

People who commit suicide to attain enlightenment or escape suffering will never realise that it doesn’t work, because there is no experience after death, so you can’t experience the goal that you wanted. The person who kills himself to escape suffering will not experience peace after he dies, because there is no ‘him’ anymore. He doesn’t experience ‘the end of suffering’, so his suffering doesn’t really end.

I want to clarity for people who might be reading this anew that measures will be taken to further minimize misunderstanding of the teachings and make things extra clear regarding suicide and other potential dangers and how to avoid them. So don't get the idea that nothing is being done or no feedback is being listened to. Making the teachings safer and clearer is something I hold as important. But you also need to understand that they will never be fool-proof and people will ignore warnings even when they are given. The kind of people who are most susceptible to misusing the teachings are precisely those who will tend to skip over warnings.

Just send them to the suicide subreddit. Sometimes people in that condition will not go to see a professional, and the Samaritans etc you know are BSing you with a script. Do you know who was one of the most successful suicide hotline workers of all time. No joke... Ted Bundy. Lmao. People aren't stupid. They don't want to know someone is just saying empty words that aren't actually true because the script tells them to. Sometimes online communities like on Reddit are more accessible to people in trouble.

What would you propose? People sometimes commit suicide. This community is as far from pro-suicide as it can get.

One change I suggest is that suicide talk be banned from the forum. Posters contemplating suicide or writing suicide fantasies should be immediately shut down and referred to professional help. An Internet forum can’t handle these issues, but takes on the responsibility if a platform is being provided for their expression.

I am of the opinion that a person who does this is already struggling. And as you know people drawn to these sorts of things are probably more likely to be struggling mentally, hence seeking an escape. If I wanted to shortcut to liberation and didn't care about death at all I'd do a fat dose of 5-MeO-DMT. Maybe every day even if I was THAT serious that I'd kill myself. Leaping to my death makes no sense to me. It seems to defeat the purpose otherwise... You get into self development to improve your life. Suicide is the opposite way lol. I don't think it is right when Buddhists just label existence suffering. I am under no illusion that a great deal of people find some contentment in their lives. I really think this is likely a person who found a way to feel okay and fine about a decision that they probably wanted to make before finding such communities to begin with.

Do not fearmonger and spread toxic ideas. We are here discussing this issue so people can get closure. This thread is not a license for run hog-wild with crazy ideas. Nobody is here to kill themselves and nothing in these teachings is remotely about that. This idea that anything whatsoever in these teachings is even remotely close to suicide needs to end right now. There is no such confusion in the mind of any reasonable or sane person. Please stop spreading such rumors. Keep in mind that if you guys insist on promoting such ideas about my work, I will stop sharing my teachings with you entirely. And then you will be all on your own.

Grace? Nobody here looks highly upon suicide. In fact it's very much in the air that suicide is precisely not what this work is about. And Leo is handling it about as well as one could ask. In Patreon meetings with Jim Newman, for instance, if someone brings up suicide, Jim tells them "I'll buy you the rope." Basically the exact opposite happens here.

From what I'm gathering it is unclear to mostly everyone here that with this gentleman's death this community has just entered a kind of dangerzone of becoming a hotbed for suicide contagion. That he did it with so much grace, and because timeless nondual truth has little bad to say about suicide, and because this forum as a place of spiritual exploration and communication is full of diverse people contemplating death (as they should be) including a fair number of emotionally unstable folks, we are ripe for a suicide cluster. If you don't know what I'm talking about please google "suicide cluster", "suicide contagion", and "the Werther effect". Sadly, we see this in high-schools all too often. There we can attempt to control the much more manageable environment and offer clinical help to everyone, and still multiple impressionable confused young people take thier lives. There is little chance of halting it here. In short folks, this may be the beginning of the end of the forum. The days and weeks to come will tell. It will only take one more, and then there will be a few more. Investigations, lawsuits, all manor of demonization of this work, and a general complete shitshow will follow... Love peace but prepare for war ?

There is actually a tribe who DOGMATICALLY believe that when they die they go to another plane of existence that is far greater. Sounds like normal religions but they DOGMATICALLY believe it and there are no guardrails. No "suicide prevents heaven" etc. This tribe has not gone extinct, and the people do not just randomly suicide, but they do suicide when slight issues arise in their life. Sam Harris discussed these people before I think.

SoonHei was nowhere near the consciousness or development level of The Buddha. If he was awake he would not have jumped off a bridge. An awake person doesn't behave that way and certainly doesn't ask others about it. He was simply eager to reach liberation via suicide rather than doing the hard work. Why spend 10 years meditating or taking psychedelics when you can just jump off a bridge? "Die before you die" does not mean: go die. He took it as that.

This to me is really the only plausible thing. Nobody could believe when Robin Williams hanged himself, that is usually the case... I cannot accept a person just jumping off a bridge like this. It makes no sense at all. I don't think the Buddha chucked himself off a bridge, Maharshi hasn't chucked himself off a bridge. It doesn't seem the done thing outside of cultural influence. I have strong conviction this was essentially an excuse to end an existence perceived as unpleasant in some way or another. If this was the end result of spiritual belief, every guru like the Buddha etc would be committing suicide.

RIP ? Im sorry for the familys loss ❤ . One thing i dont understand is the delusional people in here kinda blaming Leo for something like this, like wtf is wrong with you guys! Take responsebility for your own Life. How the hell is he supposed to even know how much people in general will twist his teachings? Like srsly only looking for someone to blame. It is extremely sad for the family in this case but this man made a choice and it is not up to us to judge his decisions. Every man can twist any other mans word to infinity. But people here trying to blame Leo, grow up and grow a pair of balls srsly and wake the fuck up and realize that this sort of stuff happens all the time. Leo has never ever said that someone should commit suicide so step off your high horses. Non duality has had the same teachings for centuries, and no one is complaining about that but now all of the sudden Leo should be given the blame? Gimme a break. Each and everyone of us should take 100% responsebility for our own lifes.

I find it incredible to carry the least responsibility in leo for this event. This is an open forum and Leo participates as one more user. apart it has a video section, but it is something separate, it could well be two different pages that would give the same thing. the guy who committed suicide was intelligent, he thought for himself. It is incredible to read people asking for paternalism, pathetic . everyone is free to do what they want. Leo (and others) should only adhere to one standard: total integrity. This forum is an oasis of integrity, never seen in internet.

When someone passes i always feel sorry for their family more than them as they are the ones left to suffer and seeing it first hand it, can be devastating and leave a lasting impact. Its a shame Soonhei went that way, i didnt know him too well but he seemed to provide a lot of value to those around him and im not sure he fully understood what was being lost. It was weird because im currently reading a book called 'Death' by Sashuguru, after i saw this thread i opened it up and i was on the page titled 'Suicide, ill leave a couple of pics at the end of the 2 pages in which he mentions when someone on the spiritual path commits suicide. Regarding the forum taking more responsibility for this, i dont really see it as Leo or the forums fault, for one it didnt seem as if he had mental health problems, therefore you can only really say he needed spiritual guidance but again the forum and Leo cant be expected to do that. There are tons of forums, social media etc etc that actively encourage suicide, it wouldnt be fair to say this forum encourages it. Also he wasnt new to the spiritual path, he did what he did somewhat consciously, if anything it seemed as if he was looking for confirmation for his eventual actions which he didnt get here. Surely this forum has saved many lives, ive seen numerous threads where people have talked about being depressed and suicidal and they have received so much support, if we change the make up of the site you are essentially risking these peoples lives, its the whole thing of people only notice when something goes wrong.

@Leo Gura I'm not sure where's the misunderstanding is. It is clear and evident that certain communications were the trigger behind this suicide. You're trying to avoid the responsibility by throwing everything at the recipient but it doesn't work that way. You maybe advanced and capable of being cautious and rational but most people aren't that way. You're carving a dangerous territory but then refusing to lead others carefully. It's time you should face reality and stop hiding behind the camera. Your words have consequences like it or not, and that's not exclusive to you. Death is a serious topic and spirituality deals with it so preventing unwanted deaths is part of it. You have built something beautiful please don't destroy it with your carelessness. The problem occurs way before the forum or the private chats you have with suicidal people. I don't expect you to become a full-time therapist suicide hotline. That would be putting the cart before the horse. Rather look at the root of the problem in your videos. Statements like: there are no others - you are imagining everything - everything is a dream literally and not figuratively - death doesn't exist or occur - and other statements Therein lies the real problem. These words aren't neutral or innocent as you might think. They trigger certain chains of thoughts that more often than not lead to negative impacts from depression and nihilism all the way to suicide and genocide. The disclaimers do very little when you emphasize too much on the literal aspect of truthfulness regarding those statements. It is your responsibility to speak things correctly, and if you can't then probably you shouldn't or else just take responsibility for what happens next. What you say in the videos is your responsibility just as much as what you say here or anywhere else. There are many ways to frame the same thing but you choose one way and this way is clearly problematic evidenced by the many confusions that people post here asking about. These confused people are confused for a reason. You go to extreme lengths trying to make things clear and I respect you for that but I just think that you need to rethink your vocabulary and improve it especially regarding sensitive topics. I believe that's not too much to ask. Preventing the problems before it comes to life is wise and you talk about wisdom so lead by example. Hopefully you will at least consider what I said here.

What happens if someone commits suicide? Why is this a bad thing? From my perspective, life offers too much beautiful things not yet discovered. But from an enlightened perspective?

Dont blame Leo lol The dude made his own decision Tragic of course Fucking hell And yes, maybe Leo/this forum/nahm could improve in communication to help prevent ppl take such retarded decisions as suicide. But don't you fucking blame Leo Love ya all ?????

@Tim Ho Apparently today, I have learned knowledge is also very important in avoiding suicide.

That is not feasible and that will not be happening. I made a decision a few years ago when I updated the disclaimers to the Forum Guidelines that we are not in the business of suicide prevention or mental healthcare. Nor will we be entering that business. This forum's purpose is to be a casual place for chit-chat. This forum is a tiny part of my job and it eats up way too much time and energy as it is. I spend more time policing this forum that I do on any other aspect of Actualized.org -- just to keep the devilry in check. This is precisely why I never started a large organization or spiritual commune. The idea was to keep things small and simple and casual. In the future I may remove every social aspect of Actualized.org entirely. No comments, no forum. Just videos. Because that is the core of what I do. I am not a babysitter. I am a researcher. And we don't have any corporate team here.

@Leo Gura Do you think after this has happened you and the mods should have more suicide prevention training and/or have a dedicated specialist dealing with this?

RIP People will not believe that suicide is bad. It sounds like suicide is bad because we are not allowed to call it good but in reality you are god so wink wink.....

We regularly talk people down from suicide if they come to us and tell us explicitly that they wish to commit suicide. I spent 1 hour last week talking down Connor Murphy because he emailed me and told me he wants to kill himself. Then I discovered he was just trolling me. So that is not the issue. The issue is that SoonHei did not explicitly say he wants to commit suicide. He alluded to it in vague, cheerful, and poetic ways -- and it's hard to spot that when we deal with hundreds of messages and posts every week. The problem with suicide threats is that they are often trolling attempts for attention. This makes it difficult to distinguish who is serious and who is not. Depressive and mentally unstable people tend to threaten suicide a lot even when they don't really mean it. I used to have an ex-girlfriend who did that, and she was sometimes shocked when I called the suicide hotline for her. She treated it as a manipulation tactic to get sympathy and love. Don't forget how twisted and deceptive some people can be. And then on top of it they can get upset when you call the suicide hotline on them. The bottom line is that suicide prevention is not our job here. We do it only as a last resort when there is no other choice, but for that we need to be clearly aware the person is suicidal.

@Leo Gura I don't assume I can push forever. For fucks sake no. That would be another ego trip altogether. I remember thinking that enlightenment will make me push this pain until forever. Not necessarily true. Having such thoughts only breeds more ego and more delusions of what enlightenment is and in the end more mental illness and then more physical pain. You still feel physical pain if people hit you with a bat after you have attained wisdom. You don't become superman. Taking care of the mind is the same with taking care of the body. The source of my physical ailment was indeed, mind. I changed my inner self. But it took a year for my body to adjust even when my mind became a little healthier. Anyways, I think it helps when one has a mind of challenge against suicide and self destruction. Not to become jaded. One needs a sort of tough love to get over it because that was how I overcame my physical ailment and therefore, my depression. Huh, but this is just my experience. I cannot say the same with a person in a wheelchair, or a person who has parkinson's disease.