Search the Community

When someone passes i always feel sorry for their family more than them as they are the ones left to suffer and seeing it first hand it, can be devastating and leave a lasting impact. Its a shame Soonhei went that way, i didnt know him too well but he seemed to provide a lot of value to those around him and im not sure he fully understood what was being lost. It was weird because im currently reading a book called 'Death' by Sashuguru, after i saw this thread i opened it up and i was on the page titled 'Suicide, ill leave a couple of pics at the end of the 2 pages in which he mentions when someone on the spiritual path commits suicide. Regarding the forum taking more responsibility for this, i dont really see it as Leo or the forums fault, for one it didnt seem as if he had mental health problems, therefore you can only really say he needed spiritual guidance but again the forum and Leo cant be expected to do that. There are tons of forums, social media etc etc that actively encourage suicide, it wouldnt be fair to say this forum encourages it. Also he wasnt new to the spiritual path, he did what he did somewhat consciously, if anything it seemed as if he was looking for confirmation for his eventual actions which he didnt get here. Surely this forum has saved many lives, ive seen numerous threads where people have talked about being depressed and suicidal and they have received so much support, if we change the make up of the site you are essentially risking these peoples lives, its the whole thing of people only notice when something goes wrong.

@Leo Gura I'm not sure where's the misunderstanding is. It is clear and evident that certain communications were the trigger behind this suicide. You're trying to avoid the responsibility by throwing everything at the recipient but it doesn't work that way. You maybe advanced and capable of being cautious and rational but most people aren't that way. You're carving a dangerous territory but then refusing to lead others carefully. It's time you should face reality and stop hiding behind the camera. Your words have consequences like it or not, and that's not exclusive to you. Death is a serious topic and spirituality deals with it so preventing unwanted deaths is part of it. You have built something beautiful please don't destroy it with your carelessness. The problem occurs way before the forum or the private chats you have with suicidal people. I don't expect you to become a full-time therapist suicide hotline. That would be putting the cart before the horse. Rather look at the root of the problem in your videos. Statements like: there are no others - you are imagining everything - everything is a dream literally and not figuratively - death doesn't exist or occur - and other statements Therein lies the real problem. These words aren't neutral or innocent as you might think. They trigger certain chains of thoughts that more often than not lead to negative impacts from depression and nihilism all the way to suicide and genocide. The disclaimers do very little when you emphasize too much on the literal aspect of truthfulness regarding those statements. It is your responsibility to speak things correctly, and if you can't then probably you shouldn't or else just take responsibility for what happens next. What you say in the videos is your responsibility just as much as what you say here or anywhere else. There are many ways to frame the same thing but you choose one way and this way is clearly problematic evidenced by the many confusions that people post here asking about. These confused people are confused for a reason. You go to extreme lengths trying to make things clear and I respect you for that but I just think that you need to rethink your vocabulary and improve it especially regarding sensitive topics. I believe that's not too much to ask. Preventing the problems before it comes to life is wise and you talk about wisdom so lead by example. Hopefully you will at least consider what I said here.

What happens if someone commits suicide? Why is this a bad thing? From my perspective, life offers too much beautiful things not yet discovered. But from an enlightened perspective?

Dont blame Leo lol The dude made his own decision Tragic of course Fucking hell And yes, maybe Leo/this forum/nahm could improve in communication to help prevent ppl take such retarded decisions as suicide. But don't you fucking blame Leo Love ya all ?????

@Tim Ho Apparently today, I have learned knowledge is also very important in avoiding suicide.

That is not feasible and that will not be happening. I made a decision a few years ago when I updated the disclaimers to the Forum Guidelines that we are not in the business of suicide prevention or mental healthcare. Nor will we be entering that business. This forum's purpose is to be a casual place for chit-chat. This forum is a tiny part of my job and it eats up way too much time and energy as it is. I spend more time policing this forum that I do on any other aspect of Actualized.org -- just to keep the devilry in check. This is precisely why I never started a large organization or spiritual commune. The idea was to keep things small and simple and casual. In the future I may remove every social aspect of Actualized.org entirely. No comments, no forum. Just videos. Because that is the core of what I do. I am not a babysitter. I am a researcher. And we don't have any corporate team here.

@Leo Gura Do you think after this has happened you and the mods should have more suicide prevention training and/or have a dedicated specialist dealing with this?

RIP People will not believe that suicide is bad. It sounds like suicide is bad because we are not allowed to call it good but in reality you are god so wink wink.....

We regularly talk people down from suicide if they come to us and tell us explicitly that they wish to commit suicide. I spent 1 hour last week talking down Connor Murphy because he emailed me and told me he wants to kill himself. Then I discovered he was just trolling me. So that is not the issue. The issue is that SoonHei did not explicitly say he wants to commit suicide. He alluded to it in vague, cheerful, and poetic ways -- and it's hard to spot that when we deal with hundreds of messages and posts every week. The problem with suicide threats is that they are often trolling attempts for attention. This makes it difficult to distinguish who is serious and who is not. Depressive and mentally unstable people tend to threaten suicide a lot even when they don't really mean it. I used to have an ex-girlfriend who did that, and she was sometimes shocked when I called the suicide hotline for her. She treated it as a manipulation tactic to get sympathy and love. Don't forget how twisted and deceptive some people can be. And then on top of it they can get upset when you call the suicide hotline on them. The bottom line is that suicide prevention is not our job here. We do it only as a last resort when there is no other choice, but for that we need to be clearly aware the person is suicidal.

@Leo Gura I don't assume I can push forever. For fucks sake no. That would be another ego trip altogether. I remember thinking that enlightenment will make me push this pain until forever. Not necessarily true. Having such thoughts only breeds more ego and more delusions of what enlightenment is and in the end more mental illness and then more physical pain. You still feel physical pain if people hit you with a bat after you have attained wisdom. You don't become superman. Taking care of the mind is the same with taking care of the body. The source of my physical ailment was indeed, mind. I changed my inner self. But it took a year for my body to adjust even when my mind became a little healthier. Anyways, I think it helps when one has a mind of challenge against suicide and self destruction. Not to become jaded. One needs a sort of tough love to get over it because that was how I overcame my physical ailment and therefore, my depression. Huh, but this is just my experience. I cannot say the same with a person in a wheelchair, or a person who has parkinson's disease.

I think one of the reasons I didn't commit suicide is because I had pledged o my dad that I would do my absolute best to live a good life. His last words were that I should look after myself He was always worried about me because he thought I was too naive to be to survive in this world.

First off sorry to hear of the loss. I don’t know enough about the guy to make any comments on his state of mind or his reasons. Only what I’ve read. The blame game doesn’t work for me though. There’s such a variety of states of mind following actualized that it’s impossible to cater for all. I’ve seen a fair bit aimed towards the latest video, but let’s not forget the guy never watched that video he took his life before its release. Everybody here has their own agenda of what they want out of spirituality. For me personally it’s pure understanding of reality, what I am and what the hell im upto. And then to live in physical reality with the deepest understanding I can of what it is, how it’s working etc. To enjoy the creation. Whilst understanding it. Understanding myself. To it’s bitter end, it’s natural end. It’s obviously tricky to teach at such a scale, again because of the wide variety of individuals, everyone unique in their own way. It is down to the individual to try to gauge where they are at, to be wise and use common sense. Maybe if a video says ‘advanced’ in the title, then think maybe this isn’t quite for me yet, I’ll put viewing that aside for the time being an study other areas. The thing with it is, Leo is going to teach from where he’s at. New releases are not going to backtrack, dumb down or be watered down. Because those videos are already there. So from his perspective it makes no sense it’s pointless and a waste of time. It’s down to an individual to backtrack themselves through the catalogue of work and take up the teachings from where they honestly feel they’re at. If that’s his early self development videos then that’s where ya at. No point taking in his latest video if your in a position of just working out physical reality through quantum mechanics or something. For me personally I got a lot out of the latest video, and the long deep videos are right up my street. But the same applies where as he isn’t just teaching to suit my wants and needs. It’s on a grand scale and if things need altering in some form I’m sure he will. Let’s also not forget Soonhei will no doubt have taken in other teachings, the likes of tolle, spira, sadguru, yang, loads of the spiritual practices out there, to culminate in that final choice of suicide. Ya know people have hung themselves and committed suicide because their sports team have lost, this is true there’s many cases that can be searched up. But ya don’t blame the team for losing, or a couple of the individual players because maybe ya think they could have put in a little more effort that game. Or ya don’t stop going to watch your team if one of the fans has hung himself because the team got beat. These oddities do happen in all walks of life. It’s tragic and sad. And my heart goes out to those affected. Truth is truth in the end though. And if truth is to be taught, it’s needs to be taught as close to the truth as is possible. Or there’s no point in teaching it. You may as well say your teaching lies ??‍♂️

I have had the thought run through my mind in the past that goes something like this: "This is all a Dream, and all that exist is in my direct experience right here right now (as per Leo's Guided Exercise for Realizing You Are God video). Therefore if I kill myself there will be no family and friends that I leave behind who will grieve me because they are just an illusion, and they will cease to exist once the dream of Tucker dies. Therefore, my suicide will not cause any pain or suffering because there is literally no one else to experience this pain and suffering." A part of me still wonders if this line of thinking has aspects of truth or not. I'm sharing this so that it can be discussed and hopefully clarified rather than me just repressing these half-baked ideas into my shadow. Thank you.

I'm very sad and shocked to hear this happened. I have somewhat similiar experience with the mind getting tangled up with spirituality, death and suicide. I can see how the mind gets caught up with such stories. Nasty stuff. It seems that this is not that rare for some reason. This needs to be addressed more. If anyone wishes to gain insight in how these thought-stories are formed, I'm happy to share my story and experiences.

Don't overthink. You look at an ant. Does it think its way to a suicide? If you pluck out one wing/leg, does it kill itself or fight to survive?

I used to work for the Police. Even if a victim had no family, someone has to deal with the trauma of the aftermath of a suicide, irrespective of how they did it. I saw suicides too much, perhaps one a week over 16 years in the job. I never knew a single time that it didn't affect someone.

When doing spiritual work it is important to ground yourself in Shakti. If he had studied Buddhism and then come to New age spirituality I believe he wouldn't committed suicide. Leo's teachings are dangerous to airy fairy type of people. I read the dudes post and he comes across as such. It is very easy to misinterpret Leo's teachings if the person is airy fairy. Spirituality should go hand in hand with grounding and integrating. Otherwise nasty stuff can happen.

From a utilitarian view it was a bad move, because he wasn't even suffering. So he added a massive amount of extra suffering into the world, unfortunately. I'm all for suicide if it doesn't cause suffering to others. If it means that the total amount of suffering decreases.

I'm not about to take the time to find it all and quote it, but there has been just a bit of shall I say an overly positive response in some posts in regards to this good man's suicide IMHO. Even if I'm completely wrong about that others looking for justification and encouragement to take their own lives may well read what you or I see as compassion as glorification. I read new posts in this forum daily by people toying with the idea to seriously contemplating to truly considering suicide. As I've said, it is an organic part of spiritual development work. In addition self-help and spiritual work draws distraught suicidal people in the first place. This forum if full to the brim of those with death, ego death, and bodily death on their mind. I'm willing to be a bit of an asshole and say slightly offensive things if it means keeping even one person reading this thread from thinking suicide is the answer to their worldly and/or spiritual challenges. It's not personal to you, the deceased, his loved ones, or anyone.

I don’t think this was much of a case of depression or suffering based on what I’ve seen. If it was a case of mental health issues or you’re going to read it that way, disregard this post. The real danger here was intense optimism. He saw everything in the way it could go right rather than how it could go wrong. I literally heard the same words said to me by my much older atheistic friend when he was referring to how I kept experiencing mental health issues due to my intense spiritual practices. I see this sad event like he was a passionate astronaut thinking that using 100% of his fuel to continue exploring twice as far rather than returning home is worth it because the prize of discovery and adventure is that important to him. Is it foolish? It depends on what you value. We don’t consider deaths on Mt. Everest suicide. Climbing up a mountain seems like a much more foolish thing to die for than what he was envisioning if he’s even 1% correct in his projections. Jesus could’ve toned it down and lived. Yet we cherish him for facing death for his cause. Many other mystics experienced similar fates at their own choice through the hands of others. Your mention of Braveheart comes to mind as a more secular example. Our problem with this whole issue is we disagree with how Sunny placed his values into a hierarchy and was willing to take a gigantic gamble for something we personally wouldn’t — at least not in the same way or degree. This whole thread is filled with a stench. And that is the stench of mostly politely concealed judgment and arrogance. So many are looking down at him while giving earnest condolences. Foolish, stupid, overzealous, reckless, inconsiderate, selfish, immoral, the list goes on. Whether held mostly subconsciously or with true intention, many of you had one of these words or a synonym in mind when thinking of his decision and maybe even him. Remember him how you see fit. I’ll remember him as a true devotee with more courage than I. RIP to my brother who I hardly knew ❤️. The Holy Spirit already showed me you’re still here. I only wish his family could receive this confirmation rather than me.

Showing compassion and understanding to the deceased is not glorification of suicide. Glorification would be if people did not feel sorry or if they cheered such an act and encouraged others to do the same. However I didn't see that on the thread. Most people expressed regret that it happened. I don't see this as glorification but condemnation and disappointment expressed in a compassionate way.

@Preety_India I'm sorry Preety. I mean no disrespect to him, his family and friends, you, or anyone. All I'm saying is that for the sake of preserving human life and this community we must condemn and not glorify suicide.

@Leo Gura it is not natural to kill one's body nor is it natural to die prematurely. I do not approve of it whether you like it or not. Remember, existence is a natural phenomenon. And nature is not masochistic. Nature does not condone suicide that easily. There is a natural way and there is an unnatural way. And I swear these people in spirituality who are being masochistic to awaken are the most dangerous people. Speaking of the mahatmas, christian monks, and buddhist saints... etc. And especially what has plagued the world are those people who infect others with such presuppositions about Nature. And people cheer on them, unfortunately, so they are easy to propagate. People love masochistic people, because if they see anyone taking care of themselves in a loving way, they feel jealous. I am sure Nature despises such things, to say the least.

This is very sad news indeed. Thoughts with the family But the unfortunate truth is that after actualized has millions upon millions of views, it was inevitable that someone who committed suicide was somehow linked to actualized. but of course someone who commited suicide could be identified as a ‘forum member’ but could have also been anything else going on in his life. someone mentioned that Leo should put out a video mentioning SoonHei’s name. I don’t think there’s need for this. I remember once someone read an e book I wrote and then blamed me for their depression. It was a long mess of small court, lawyers etc For some reason, people are waiting in the wings for Leo and something like this will be exactly what some people have waited for to tear him down. It could be blown out of proportion and risk everything.

The fact of the matter is that the contemplation of suicide simply goes with the territory of spiritual development. It is a challenge that most every serious seeker must wrestle with and transcend, and some will face it long-term and/or repeatedly; and some will fail to win Freedom without falling bodily by their own hand. This is the case in all awakening work in every tradition and type of teaching. Absolute Life is what we aspire to and to become One with it we must face relative death. To well understand that this is Not a Call or a Cause to Commit Suicide even in the darkest night of the soul when it is very tempting is why a strong disciplined mind must be developed before undertaking hard-core spiritual practices of any sort, including with psychedelics. It is important that everyone here recognize that the path to enlightenment is both beautifully light and dark. It is strewn with the dead in traps that can bind and snare and kill you too both metaphorically and literally. Learn well the lesson SoonHei died to teach us. His death must be firmly condemned least we risk it being glorified and worse case scenario such death becomes a theme here. It gives me no pleasure to say he was a deluded fool, a victim of his own spiritualized ego, and it ended his life out of pure fear disguised as lofty spirituality. Know that for a minor turn of fate it could have happened to any of us. Those who Know know it did happen to us. It is loss. It is pain. It is grief and hardship and remorse. Be wise. Learn from this mistake and don't repeat it.