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Good to hear you address some of these issues, specifically suicide. i would be willing to bet that more people than we might think watch watch your videos or visit your forum have battled with these types of thoughts at some point for a variety of different reasons. The nihilism dip is certainly something I've experienced, and not just once either. It's not always about ideas or beliefs. Health fades, careers end, purpose disappears, meaning evaporates, loved ones pass away, pets die, we can find ourselves completely alone in the world regardless of whatever life we had created for ourselves, sometimes, for some. Others seek so obsessively, the dizzying heights of "total" enlightenment that they dive headfirst into the deep abyss of insanity, quite easily actually. Like you said, reality just melts, don't know which way is up. It could happen to any of us given the right set of circumstances. Perspective is a tricky thing. I heard you mention your gut problems and I was moved to hear you talk about your struggle, one that I share, and one that I can tell you from personal experience can get so bad that it can affect much more than consciousness. Everything flows. I look forward to the video you said you were going to do later specifically about suicide. Hope it comes from that place of Absolute Love.

In my opinion there should be a rule in the Forum rules on what talk is allowed with regards to suicide. I would advocate banning all suicide talk. But, certainly using spiritual teachings to argue that suicide is reasonable or valid shouldn’t be allowed. In all cases, they are misinterpreting spiritual teaching meant for advanced practitioners and are 100% wrong. The purpose is to wake up and live a happy life, not to kill yourself.

I don't think it is correct to label "Jumping from the bridge to end your human existence and awaken from the imaginary dream of life" as stupid. If doing that really awakens you and be with God, it means it is valid. Sadhguru even recommended to his followers to go to a forest, and sit under a tree until they die of hunger as an alternative to MahaSamadhi. He knows most of his followers can't attain MahaSamadhi, so he recommended the alternative as a valid way to awaken from the dream. He did not encourage it. But at least he recommended it (as something valid) if his followers really want to have the "ultimate awakening". The claim everything in the material world (children, wife, friends, Leo, etc.) is imaginary also solidifies suicide as valid. The only mistake Sunny committed was he did it not because he was conscious or experienced it to be true, but he just believed it to be true. He might had suffered in a serious but hidden way. And the claim death is awakening from the imaginary dream world and union with God or Infinite Love sounds very beautiful, he was tempted to jump from the bridge as a form of spiritual bypassing. Suppose these crazy but beautiful claims are true, and murdering yourself (suicide) takes you there. I don't think that is the way to go. It is valid (not stupid), but not the best. That is what needs to be clarified. And that is what should Leo have clarified 2 or 3 years ago. I just saw his most recent video. And finally, he clarified it is best NOT TO SKIP LIFE via suicide because life is supposed to be mastered and enjoyed. That mastery and enjoyment of life despite its difficulties and challenges is a serious form of spirituality. This form of clarification is a better safeguard than disclaimers because clarifications in the videos are more impactful. I think Leo also needs to clarify whether he is still pursuing his ultimate purpose which is Liberation (the one he posted on his blog in 2019). If he is still going at it, he needs to clarify what exactly it means. Does it mean to be like Jesus? As in going out there, teaching and selflessly helping people, curing them from diseases, and feeding the hungry? Or does it mean being liberated but just continuing teaching on YouTube (which is what he has been doing)? I also notice Leo responds to posts with low to average quality as long as he perceives doing so is safe. And he doesn't respond to high quality posts if he perceives doing so is threatening. This behavior is repulsive. @Scholar's posts surely have some "substance" which are worth pondering. But Leo rarely replies to them (if he even does). It seems Leo is threatened by people who have intelligence and wisdom, but don't kiss his ass. This is a big weakness (and repulsive). I hope @Leo Gura will embody strength, bravery, integrity, and compassion in the future.

After which I saw that Leo had opened a new thread. In which he expressed his desire that people who don't get along or are chronic naysayers should leave. I immediately knew something was up. Because such a thread was never made before. I immediately felt like the whole forum was in danger. What had happened? A place that was helping people was suddenly facing a huge threat from the outside. Obviously I knew what that threat was. It was Adeptus video We on the forum give attention to people who say that they are suicidal. We tend to talk them down from suicide. What happened this time? Most people had zero clue that the guy Soonhei was planning to Suicide. It all happened so quick. There was no way anyone could have helped him if they didn't know he was going to do the unthinkable. So there was a collective feeling of survivor's guilt and regret over not being able to save his life At the same time the grief of his death. It was all too much And in this vulnerable moment, at the most horrible timing comes a video that holds the entire community responsible for the Suicide. It felt like a giant stab. It felt like immense exploitation of a vulnerable situation. People who are completely innocent. Who had chats with Soonhei. Who never meant any harm. Who wanted only good for him. Suddenly having to face the reality that they were communicating with someone who was suddenly going to disappear from the planet. This must have been hard that you talk to someone happily and next day they are gone forever. This must have been traumatizing . And on top dealing with the blame that you contributed to his suicide. I saw it as double trauma. I also felt like making a video soon after the news of the suicide broke out was very uncharitable and exploitative. Maybe he could have waited a few days before making the video till things calmed down on the forum. So all of this precipitated into me being extremely triggered by the video being released at such a vulnerable point in time . So I went to the Adeptus channel and told him that his video was pure slander. Instead of giving a fair argument or feedback I felt gaslighted and attacked for being a forum member and calling the forum a cult. When I said it's not a cult, things escalated quickly into a long back and forth of attacks. Finally I left his comment section. But yea there was sufficient ground for a trigger.

Some of the things that I want to get off my chest. My fight with Adeptus. What triggered it ? What caused it ? First of all, I was in a very vulnerable emotional and wounded state at the time of talking to him. I had learned about the forum suicide and I was very depressed. I contemplated it throughout the night and didn't sleep very well. When I woke up I saw the thread and Leo's comment on the video.. Something told me about the nature of the comment that Leo was very angry. He immediately locked the thread just when I was commenting. I knew something was not right. I had watched the Adeptus video and I was very pissed off by how claims were made that the forum members were responsible for the suicide.

I remember wanting to kill myself one day. I was trying to sleep, but couldn't. I wasn't making progress, nor making money, then this idea pops up in my head: "I'M GOING TO KILL MYSELF". It burst out of nowhere. It wasn't the first time that I had suicidal thoughts, but it was a bit stronger than usual (I never had strong suicidal thoughts in my life, but just small ones). I got out of my bed and felt the need to kill myself, to jump out of the stairs, or to take a knife. It was my ego coming back in this difficult situation, it wanted to kill itself because it was suffering too much. But the ego is inauthentic, the ego is not the true self who wants to be delighted from living an authentic life. I came back to reason a few seconds later, I thought: "No, no, no, no, no, no. Something is wrong here. This is fine, this is fine, this is life, I want to live a deep conscious life. I want to be happy.". I took some deep breaths and went back to bed to sleep. The recent suicide from a member of this community made me think of this.

That sounds like someone describing factory conditions and not liking it. Also, it's a resistance to diligence as we see with 2 of its founding fathers committing suicide over being forced into law school.

I did not and am not saying you or anyone edited his comment upon logging in some days after his passing. I am saying the comment I replied to was edited after I replied. If he did this, I do not know why he would have anymore than I know why he took his life. I looked into this and unfortunately a digital history or record of edited private messages is not available. Again I am very sorry for your loss. It is a tragic and devastating event and my mind and heart are with you and your family. It is in these precise ways that communication by text such as these threads online is very limiting and leaves much room for miscommunication and misunderstanding. I apologize that this thread is locked, and that I am able to comment and you are not. If you ever want to talk through skype or zoom I welcome that and you can reach me anytime through my website email. The link is below each post. @Muhammad Jawad I am very sorry for your loss as well, and I apologize that I did not say this already. My best friend through my teenage years and on, from whom I learned to play guitar from and had music and just about everything in common with committed suicide as well and it was difficult to bear. I wish you and your family peace as well.

First of all, I think you've handled the situation well, I think it's good to address these issues and not shy away from recent events by making a video I ofc don't think you condone suicide, or that anyone on this forum is responsible for the man's death. that said, I do think the forum would be better if everyone were to speak in riddles less and celebrate the beauty of human existence more as for the quote above, it's a weird one because I love what you teach and agree with a lot of the things, especially regarding psychology, politics and personal development, but spirituality too mostly. however, I still question some statements you make like saying you've reached 'Complete God-Realization', with the issue purely being the use of the word 'Complete', and not you saying you're God-realized, as: 1.) To me, that would mean existing as pure infinite consciousness, not as Leo experiencing pure infinite consciousness from Leo's mind inside Leo's body, and so you haven't actually become infinite consciousness outside of the mind or body 2.) To me, 'complete God realization' would mean to know what is unknowable to humans, like where existence came from, how existence came to be, things that we can only speculate on as humans, but that actual infinite consciousness would have experienced 3.) you've said the same exact words during previous awakenings, when at the time they were your deepest ones, only to then say the previous time wasn't 'complete God realization' after a deeper awakening, and that this new time is. and no this isn't me not getting that each awakening was complete in and of itself, I get that, that's not what I'm denying, I'm denying that you are completely god-realized because you imo you can't possibly know whether or not you could become more 'God-realized' or not, and therefore imo can never you're 'completely' God-realized' , especially when claiming so as a human 3.) you claim you achieved this after 130-ish awakenings, but don't know what'd happened after, say, a 1000 4.) you've said many times that there are infinite degrees of awakening, so how'd you know you've reached the end 5.) as I've said before, think of all the psychedelics that could exist throughout the universe that could enable deeper God-Realization, or all the other species that could be more evolved at experiencing consciousness compared to us 6.) you always return to you after experiencing God, whereas imo to reach 'Complete God-realization' would be to be infinite for infinity I also have a bit of an issue with how questions are avoided sometimes, like in this image, rather than acknowledging the possibilty of other psychedelics in space, or even the existence of space itself, you just said 'all of that is imaginary', which whilst I obviously know you're getting at the fact we imagine space as a thought when we think of it, to me that's a fruitless statement in the context of that conversation, as I could say the 5-meo is imaginary, or the supermarket is imaginary, but you still use 5-meo to experience God, and the supermarket to eat, just like space is still there when you call it imaginary, and so it's really saying nothing when you say that and is just an easy way to avoid objections lastly, I have a slight hesitance towards how people so dogmatically claim that 'all that exists is what the mind imagines/is conscious of', when for the mind to be able to imagine in the first place it must be supported by a beating heart, and to say the heart doesn't exist because the mind isn't imagining it seems counterproductive, as the mind can not imagine without the beating heart, and is to be dogmatic about the word exist, which means 'to live, to have reality', which you could say the heart does through itself. to say it doesn't exist, or the universe doesn't exist, when they're not being imagined, is to ignore the fact that all imagination is happening within the universe, which is non-negotiable and which we're always rooted too, so it just seems problematic to make claims so dogmatically just because we're constructing our own subjective experiences. imo just because the mind is constructing what it's experiencing doesn't mean the other things in the universe that the mind isn't experiencing are non-existent. I think a better way to phrase 'all that exists is what the mind imagines/is conscious of' would be 'all one experiences is what the mind imagines/is conscious of' this may seem like a lot, but really it's a few objections I'm sceptical of, in comparison to hundreds of things I do agree with

It has nothing to do with an ad-hominem. I issue this criticism of clickbaiting with newspaper all the time, but in this case the information comes from a person. What can I do if the dynamic is the same but there is not a team of journalist but a single person behind? All actors have an agenda. He's got all the right to create content and express himself. I have no problem with that. What I am taking issue more is to come here on this thread and complain that some people got triggered by his videos, when the very nature of the subject is emotional. Simple cause and effect. On this specific point, he's not having my sympathy, nor by calling this effect "cult like". And this misrepresentation is quite problematic. Even though, I agree that some individuals who are using the forum on the regular have been particularly problematic. Also, I've said that it was a 1-in-2. I don't say that growing his community is the sole concern, but my personal take on that matter is that Soonhei's suicide is a private event and not a public one that should be discussed on the public sphere, in order to respect his family. If I had my own channel, I would have chosen not to discuss it. It's the first time that I issue any type of criticism over critiscism of Actualized.org. By no mean would I not want it to stop. But anything which is putting fuel or potentially firing up this story pandering on the cult narrative or Actualized.org responsability from far or close will not have my support.

By posting a video on youtube, don't you wish for views? Beside, I'm not saying that this is his sole motivation. I'm just saying that its guaranteed attention so it is at best a two-in-one. And of course, this "story" is particularly juicy material in terms of eyeballs. He's got a long story of poking actualized.org and he knew very well that there would be a reaction. Leo's got a million subscribers. That's all I am saying. Also, I'm not at ease with anyone who co-opt a suicide and feels appropriate to give an opinion on the matter on a freaking youtube channel, when after all he doesn't have all the elements to judge. But that's just me. That's why I called that move opportunistic, but you're free to disagree.

As I've recently read Robert Monroe's books and those of his student Bruce Moen, they repeat at the beginning of the books the affirmation they use before out of body exploration. What may be helpful is something similar to start videos and articles: A guiding affirmation, much like "setting your intention" at the beginning of a yoga class, hyping youself up before going to an important meeting, or a mantra before bed to train for lucid dreaming. Restating some of the basics, without sounding like a cultic mantra. Things Leo reiterates frequently like Although material reality including the body is imagined by consciousness, we never intend to cause physical harm to it. In fact, maintaining your health within the life-dream is fundamental to spiritual growth.... It is the false self that dies when the ego falls away, you need not fear your body harmed by transcending the ego identity, nor will suicide give you a shortcut to enlightenment.... I'll also mention that these books mentioned really connect a lot of things that Leo never covers, or dismisses as "new-age." A few months ago I got curious about all of the in-betweens, the infinite complexity between baseline human consciousness and infinite God-consciousness. Having a bit of direct experience with this and reading the direct experiences of others paints a much more complete picture of reality, rather than just thinking when everyone dies they have a full awakening, remember that they're God and that's it. In this sense, the psychadelics, dream hacking/astral projection and meditative states that take people into these other in-between consciousness levels are beneficial, since then one would not fall into the trap of thinking suicide is a guaranteed direct shortcut to full enlightenment. Even just learning about them as a complement to Actualized.org/other enlightenment teachings would probably dispell that myth.

The mind will rationalize whatever it wants to do. It will also conveniently neglect things it even knows. Maybe the 10 Commandments say that killing is wrong. But a foolish person will reason like this: "Killing babies is wrong. So I'm going to go kill that abortion doctor who kills babies because he is breaking the 10 Commandments!" And there will be no recognition at all that killing the doctor also breaks the 10 Commandments. You assume the mind is going to be very rigorous and consider all sides of the issue but it will not. It will ignore obvious warnings and prohibitions. You honestly think that SoonHei never heard it said that Truth is NOW, the present moment? He obviously knew what. His sister told me that he Eckhart Tolle quotes on his dreamboard and talked about many spiritual authors he's read. So obviously he knew that NOW is the place to be. But he ignored that for some fantasy of a future Mahasamadhi heaven. When the mind gets stuck on some fantasy, it's logic becomes one-sided and anything can be justified in that way. You think suicide bombers don't know it's wrong to kill civilians? They know it. But they get trapped in some other fantasy and ignore basic common sense.

1:04:00 you talk about Christianity , and how we can make anything dangerous when we misunderstand etc.. But in Christianity in particular there is a safeguard rail. It is very commonly known for Christians that if you commit suicide you won't be allowed in the kingdom of Heaven. Basically exactly what SoonHei was looking for with that jump - to find/ be in heaven itself. If he believed a little bit that what Christianity is saying is relevant, it would have challenged his idea that jumping would get him quick access to that. He would probably be here if he had more of a Christian background and had this doubt about the suicide being "Good", because there is "nowhere else to go". About "Repent and you will be allowed in Heaven" being like a visa to do anything, it might appear like that, sure.. But I have had an insight about that one... How would one feel, when in Heaven, knowing that they don't deserve it... It would not be a good feeling and it would make heaven into a kind of hell, where you are like an undeserving dirt. I want to deserve it even a little bit, and using Jesus' sacrifice as a visa to do anything is not part of that. I know I do sin and I have a sinful nature, but I am not actively trying to be that. I attempt my best, but I am not going to be perfect in this human form. All that is wanted of us is to do our best. Our best is definitely not to say "Well since Jesus died for my sins, lets go and sin for the lols" This is not a critique on your teachings, it is a critique of your critique of Christianity.

i dont think that reincarnation is even matters , suicide is just not a conscious thing, it is animalistic fueled by anger and fear

In mahasamadhi you enter Nirvana. In suicide you reincarnate in a worse place then before. You go to hell basicly. At least that what people say.

in mahasamdhi it is a way to fullfill your destany and be complete ,physical suicide is killing yourself becasue you try to eliminate some damge, you are not complete in physical suicide , you do this because you think your life is so fucked up that your rather die, in mahasamdhi you dont think , you just be

I thought that the video was about the dangers of misapplying spiritual teaching, which it is as I am currently listening to it. The introduction part was kind of scary, after hearing someone in the forum committed suicide.

@Leo Gura I have always admired the fact that you are creating your work and giving it to the world for free. Few points on this: The youtube demographic is mostly 13-year-old kids. Kids are "highly" influenced by someone who is presenting himself as an authoritative figure and they take all your Words for granted. You have to take this into account when you present very Radical Ideas to the general public because young kids will take your Word and run with it. Giving Radical Truths to 13-year-olds is like putting them in a tank in the middle of the city and expecting not to shoot up the whole town. One of the biggest problems of spiritual work is spiritual bypassing. Students must have the right foundation for life before they proceed with serious spiritual work. When you talk about Radical Ideas, you are basically "tempting" your students to meet you where YOU are at, not where THEY are at. Your style/personality of teaching is very persuasive. Teachings are given at the level of the student, not at the level of the teacher. That is the higher love. I think you have to re-evaluate if Youtube is the right platform for you to teach Radical Truths. You have saved 1000 people from committing suicide, but you have to do everything possible to prevent any unnecessary physical harm to others. Psychedelics are very powerful tools for the Mind. I completely agree with you on this. But you should not advertise as the only tool. Few points on this: Before taking psychedelics, people must do at least a few years of basic spiritual work(meditation, self-inquiry, contemplation, breathing, etc) and they should know enough deep metaphysics to recontextualize their psychedelic experience. Saying there is a "magic pill" that will give you the answers to life, the universe, and Everything is immature. For you Leo, it works like a "magic pill" because you tend to forget the years of hard work/suffering that you have put into your work of deconstructing yourself. For those that have not done the WORK, "magic pills" do NOT exist. Connor should teach you that giving psychedelics to an overly developed Ego will lead to psychosis. Connor spent years on YouTube inflating his Ego, and few months doing psychedelics to deconstruct the Ego. He is advertising himself as your student because your students should know what NOT to do. People should not take psychedelics before they are ready to do so. And when they do take psychedelics, they should do it responsibly. I am immensely grateful to you for all the work you have done and shared with the world. Much love.

After i've heard about the recent suicide incident from a member of this forum i wonder isn't Mahasamdhi a form of suicide? Leo in your Outrageous Experiment video you've talked about how tempting it was to accept the call for leaving your body. Isn't that a form of suicide like jumping off a bridge?

@Proserpina It is because his wife left consciously, so it is called mahasamadhi and suicide is done out of sorrow, basically a person being tired of life. Mahasamadhi will have less suffering than suicide as the person who is trying to do mahashamadhi has already prepared himself or herself mentally and the person will detach from the body. In case of suicide, the person acts out of grief or depression and kill himself/herself by hanging or cutting or something like that but the process will be painful and the person will suffer more. Sorry for my poor language but I think this topic is not that necessary to cover. As at the end the person who did suicide and the person who did mahasamadhi will be at the same side of the island.

@Leo Gura I’m worried that if you publicly talk about this unfortunate suicide incident on your channel then you could get a huge backlash. I mentioned my experience of writing an e book and someone coming after me saying that made them depressed. It sounds silly, but it was nearly a year of lawyers and small courts. you already have some haters and trolls who’ve made negative videos towards your teachings … but this story would be the bait for them, I don’t want to seem like I’m being over the top, I just think as your teachings get more radical and if you talk about this suicide incident openly, you risk even your channel itself. just thinking of you Leo and actualized as I believe you have done absolutely nothing wrong.

@Leo Gura Absolutely agree with this. We cannot all have the same opinions on everything and it would stunt growth if we all were just circlejerking each other. I don't like to argue. If I disagree with something or don't partake in it, it doesn't mean I put it in the garbage pile and know its bad/wrong. I have a section in my mind under question mark and these things I do not agree with might later be changed - or not. I love Leos work on self inquiry and I believe there should be tolerance and room for practicing spirituality without using psychedelics and still using this forum. That said, I am a user of -5meo-THC which is considered a mild psychedelic. Regarding Leo's teachings about death, from my understanding, put simply, he does not support or encourage suicide, because he talks about how this experience now, including the experience of having a body, is actually nothingness /death itself. So one would only want to get rid of the body to experience death if they believed they are not already dead. Leo's teachings are absolutely the opposite. If you do not identify with the body, why so eager to get rid of it? If you're already dead, why the need to experience "conscious death". Etc, etc.. When realising you're not your car, you wouldn't smash your car to bits, it is still a useful tool. It does, however, make it easier to let go of the car when it's time comes, which is a positive. The problem comes when the milk (truth) gets mixed with the poison of the egoic mind and create a story that appears to be true, because it looks like milk...

Fair point. Thanks for the feedback. I will take it under consideration. Being more accommodating to the female perspective is something I've been trying to do more of. It takes unwiring some old habits. That has many issues. If this forum continues for years, we will definitely have more suicidal people joining and there is always a possibility of someone following thru on it. There is no way I can prevent that. There are 40,000 suicides every year in the USA alone. If I am going to be personally held responsible for every suicide that someone who sees one of my videos commits, then basically there cannot be a forum, or a comment section, or videos. Holding me personally responsible for the suicide of a person I have never talked to is an absurd standard which you would never hold any serious professional to. And you would feel outraged if anyone held you to such standard. That is the nature of teaching and communication. I could make the same counter-argument to those who deny Love as Absolute. I could say, "You are just being dogmatic and one day you may change your mind." There are always going to be some things within a body of teaching which are core to the teaching we the teacher will refuse to compromise on. This is true of any teacher or teaching. If you go to a Zen master and say, "But what if the Buddha wasn't enlightened? What if you are deluded?" The Zen master will laugh at you and kick you out of his zendo. Because if you truly feel the Buddha wasn't enlightened, you have no business being in a Zen classroom. You should go do more productive thing. Endlessly arguing about spiritual topics is extremely counter-productive to spiritual work. Which is why we cannot have endless in-fighting and debate here. The problem is one of distraction. I want you doing the work, not arguing about Love. Love to me is absolutely fundamental to this work. If you believe I'm deluded, fine, but then why are you here? Go follow someone who isn't deluded according to your logic. I will not compromise on Love. You can torture me and I will still tell you that Love is Absolute Truth. If you think that's closedminded and delusional, well, I cannot help you. You actually misunderstand what openmindedness means in this case. That's fine. I'm happy to have discussions about political stuff and SD. I'm not concerned much about disagreements there. I'm more concerned about constant debates about core spiritual truths which do not progress a seek in any meaningful way. Do not debate Love. Go become conscious of it. Or don't. The reason for seeking to minimize debate is not for the sake my ego. The point is to create an environment in which people's reptilian brains are not constantly triggered into ideological battle. These ideological battles make spiritual work impossible. I don't like debate because it is extremely unproductive. And then we have to waste a lot of time moderating it.

@SoonHei committed a spiritual and physical suicide, he jumped in a leap of faith into infinity. Trouble is he left behind his finite family and all those who love him. This community can't be held solely accountable for the choice of a man, a free agent. But also, we need to take a look at the conditions that helped foster his worldview such that he would come to make this choice. We're interconnected here in terms of thought, outlook, worldview, and the content of actualized.org certainly fed profoundly into his worldview. In that light, I can definitely see how he came to his conclusion. I don't think in 1000 years that I, or most of us would jump. But I can definitely see his line of thought, and how some of the content and ideas around here might lead someone to think this way. We're not in some kind of crisis of being inside a suicide cult, but if we don't deeply address this issue, it will be doomed to repeat here and there. We can't just write it off as collateral damage, or as statistically inevitable. His actions were deeply intertwined with some lines of thought and perspectives floated here.