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It’s so interesting to observe an intellectual approach vs direct experience. During and soon after my first psychedelic trip, there was no “me” or “you”. Not in an intellectual way, in a direct experience way. I was left dumbfounded. I remember trying to write a trip report and using terms like “me” and “I” seemed misleading, it didn’t feel right. I remember trying to interact with others on the forum and was confused why those that seemed to know nonduality through direct experience were using personal pronouns. It was one of my initial questions to Leo. To approach nondual pronoun usage from an intellectual mindset is so strange to me. I’m not saying it’s bad or wrong, it’s just weird to me because the direct experience realization is so beyond intellect.

@Javfly33 This is a common appearance along the spiritual path. At first, it can seem like compartmentalizing. There is "spiritual time" in which one may meditate in a spiritual room or sangha. We may have spiritual statues and light incense to create a spiritual atmosphere. We may contemplate afterwards. . . The tendency is to then switch back to "regular" mode. Now it's time to run errands, study, go to work etc. After a while, they start to integrate and overlap. The world becomes one's sangha. At the personal level, it feels like a process. For me, it felt like I was transcending my personal story during my spiritual practices - during solo time in nature, yoga and meditation. And then I went to work and it felt like I was "flipping back" to playing a made-up character. Then I would "flip out" of it. It made for some uncomfortable moment at work and with family. I spent a lot of time alone. . . One thing that helped me was realizing that this "character" appears and disappears. Yet this is not outside nonduality. The character appears just like music and bird chirps appear. That character can appear without any attachment or identification. . . For example, last week I was at a meeting at work. There were appearances of characters in the room - including "me". At one point, someone asked me "what's your opinion?". Then an "I" appeared and words of an "opinion" left "my" mouth. Yet there wasn't attachment/identification. There weren't thought stories like "I hope my opinion was good enough", "She thinks she is smarter than me. I saw how she sighed when I was talking". That type of personal attachment/identification dissolves. . . Then later, I'm walking through nature. There is no need for that character and it disappears for a while.

We can't because Nonduality is recognition that we are all one and separate entities "you" and "I" are delusions

Here's one of the videos where he talks about Leo but also some on Nonduality teachers in general He likes Jed Mckenna but says he is also in the "consciousness trap"

@Lento @Inliytened1 thanks, this is helpful. I do find my mind having these two distinct states. I have an intuition there is a deeper level which encompasses both duality and nonduality, some people talk like that, but haven't reached it yet. It's ok either way. I'm not striving for anything other than awareness of the present moment.

@Lento I get what you've saying in theory, but in practice I'm only aware of nonduality at 'special' moments, when my mind is in a state of stillness. Perhaps that's just my nature, or state of development or something. Anyway, just curious if anyone here experiences nonduality while thinking.

My glimpses of nonduality have so far all occurred when my thinking has stopped. Is nondual awareness incompatible with thought? If so, then when we're in a state without thought, cognition, recognition, interpretation, mental map-making, then we aren't having illusions, truthful concepts or anything abstract like that. Just pure awareness of sense perception. Maybe. I'm still looking.

Nonduality beliefs and ideas

@Nak Khid If there’s you, and anything else, what’s the word Nonduality mean?

This topic cracks me up so much because it's so easy to understand but difficult at the same time ❤ The separation from oneness never occurred it was an illusion. Nonduality is all there ever has been and ever will be. If Oneness is already the case, twoness could never be... The ten thousand waves in the ocean were never something apart from the ocean. So you could say they're included but that doesn't make sense because they were never apart. The apartness is the illusion.... Duality is an illusion...❤

5-MEO-DMT Bufo AlvariusTrip Report ROA: Smoking Dosage: 93 mgs After many months of failed attempts at experimenting with plugging 5-MeO at home. And many more months trying to find a professional facilitator close to me, and many more months getting our schedules to align, I finally got to do my very first Bufo 5-MeO ceremony this weekend. He was decades experienced, and had me stay at his home, where we did the ceremony. As it was raining up at the property up in the mountains where he usually holds the ceremonies. I was pretty calm leading up to the ceremony, until he said it was time. There were 3 of us there for ceremony. He would take us up to a room one at a time, for about an hour each. We debated who would go first, I requested I go first, as waiting and listening to what happened for someone else, would just make me more nervous. As it finally came time, I was really nervous. Him and his female partner sat with me in a circle and did deep breathing with me until I was calm and ready. He asked me if I wanted to start out with a low dose, or jump right into a high dose. I told him I am prone to panic attacks when I have time to resist the effects. So he suggested a high dose. I didn’t ask or want to know what he loaded. He later afterwards told me it was 93mgs. Not sure how much that translates to synthetic 5-MeO dosage. He explained to me how it was going to work. He would hold the pipe. I was to slowly draw in, until my lungs were full, as he counted to 10. Then as I lay back he would count back from 10, as I hold it in. I never made it to the pillow, and I only heard the count of 8 before I was gone. It is hard to describe what came next. It was indescribable unimaginable pure nightmarish Terror. There was no concept of who I was or what anything was. I was obliterated. But at the same time my ‘soul’ was being ripped apart in an endless cycle, over and over. There was zero possibility of resistance or surrender, it just was what it was and far too powerful to try to control. It was pure torture. Even though I was gone, I could tell I was screaming the loudest high pitch scream possible. This seemed like it lasted for only a few seconds. Coming back, I didn’t know who I was, where I was, who the people in the room were, for about a minute. Then I came to pretty fast, within another minute. There was an instant feeling of sadness. I knew right away that the ceremony was a failure. No experience being God, no infinity, no experiencing infinite realities, no insights into the nature of reality, no death (at least I don’t think, unless death is endless torture), no infinite love, no bliss, no insights, no epiphanies, no alleviation of suffering/depression/anxiety. I started to cry as all of it was for nothing. I felt exactly the same as I did before the trip. The facilitators told me I had been screaming for many minutes. Then was saying “Oh Shit!!!” over and over again as I crawled around the room thrashing about. They asked me if I wanted to do another dose, I said no. This was traumatizing enough, wouldn’t want to go through that again, even if there was a chance of a blissful God breakthrough. I was perfectly normal and fine within a few more minutes. They offered for me to go into a dark room to process, but I said that was unnecessary. I popped downstairs, and cheerfully said “hey guys!”. The two guys waiting for their turn looked traumatized. They said they wished they had gone first now, as they heard all the screaming and it made them all that much more nervous to go next. I felt bad about that. They asked me how it went for me, and I told them I would tell them later, as I didn't want to influence their journey. All in all, it felt like the trip had never even really happened. There was a few seconds of infinite torture and unimaginable terror, then nothing. So my trip only seemed to last a few seconds. I thought, if I knew nothing about Nonduality teachings, what was possible, or anything about 5-MeO, and a friend just invited me to participate in the ceremony, I probably would have angrily bitched him out for the horrible experience, with zero benefits (other than the awesome people who I shared it with). Oh well, I guess I have to get even more serious about my spiritual journey and try try try again. I’m not sharing this to discourage anyone. I’m not even discouraged. From what I hear, every trip can be different.

@Raptorsin7 Like I said, the technical details are irrelevant. You can get all the technical details right and still come up totally wrong. Or you can get the big picture right and screw up the technical details. Chopra has the big picture right. And that's what needs to be understood. Maybe he is doing a disservice to science, but science is doing a disservice to God, which is the far greater sin. Science basically understands nothing about consciousness, so to act as though science is this great thing which is being maligned is a joke. Science itself is the malignment of intelligence and Truth. The hunter is the prey here. Sam Harris would not stand a chance in a serious discussion of nonduality.

1982 Christianity and the Doctrine of Non-Dualism, a work which was first published in French in 1982 first published in English in 2004 "As for ourself, we will say unequivocally that after more than forty years of intellectual reflection on this doctrine [of non-dualism or advaita-vâda], having allowed it to impregnate us more and more profoundly, we have found nothing that has seemed incompatible with our full and complete faith in the Christian Revelation." - A Monk of the West This semi-anonymous work was written by 'A Monk of the West' who used the pseudonym of 'Elie Lemoine' (Alphonse Levée), a French Cistercian monk who, at the young age of twenty, found a copy of fellow countryman René Guénon's Orient et Occident (East and West) in a second-hand book stall while he was posted in Asia. This event had a tremendous impact that endured for the rest of his life and was instrumental in his decision to take up the monastic vocation. 'Elie Lemoine' also worked as an editor of the distinguished traditionalist journal Études Traditionnelles that was central in making Guénon and other traditionalist writings accessible to wider audiences. It was in the discovery of the René Guénon's works that 'Elie Lemoine'--A Monk of the West-- found an integral metaphysical doctrine that was universal in its principles, known in the West as the philosophia perennis--perennial philosophy. The metaphysical 'doctrine of non-dualism' (advaita-vâda) is not exclusive to Hinduism (san'tana dharma) alone but is also present in Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It is in this universal light that Christianity and the Doctrine of Non-Dualism was articulated. Though this book on 'Christian Ved'nta' is modest in its length, it is dense in its scope and reflection. The book begins with a thorough and insightful Preface by the late perennialist Alvin Moore, Jr. (1923-2005). The work consists of eight chapters and a Forward: 'Philosophical Monism and Non-Dualism', 'I am Brahma', 'In All Things Like Unto Men', 'Without Me You Can Do Nothing', 'Who am I?', 'I am not the Christ', 'East and West' and the Conclusion. ________________________________________________________________________ I challenge somebody to find a book in a European language that has "non-duality" in the title earlier than Christianity and the Doctrine of Non-Dualism from 1982. However I am going to propose Rupert Spira* is the first European to be called a teacher of Non-duality where that word is put front and center, prove me wrong *fun fact one of his talks about nonduality is included in the video game The Witness.

@Nak Khid I would agree that pure nonduality teachers are relatively recent in Western civilizations. My hunch is that the internet accelerated the process.

My Spanish isn't quite good enough to comprehend easily. I will give a closer listen later. As an aside about learning languages. . . I've found it super helpful to listen to native speakers on content that I am interested in and can understand 70%-90%. The nice thing about nonduality / consciousness speakers is they speak relatively slowly with pauses. This speaker articulates very well. He is speaking at an upper intermediate B2 level.

Hello friends, I'm fairly new on my awakening path. It started about a year ago after a lot of suffering. I still struggle to meditate and to understand the concepts of nonduality but this forum and Leo / Abraham Hicks / Alan Watts etc have been very helpful in paving the way. Please share anything you think might be helpful to hear for a new seeker. Thanks!

Enlightenment is a complete paradigm shift and a total shattering of the illusory self the ego creates. Integrating back into this fictional domain would basically be like trying to forget that Santa Claus isn't real... it simply doesn't work that way... You still chop wood and carry water but you constantly see how everyone's minds create their own personal prison and you are reminded of this fact everyday by humanities behavior and actions. Once the bottom of the bucket falls out it will never again hold water... Freedom is free because you don't actually lose a "ME"... Oneness realizes it was never there to begin with...? # nonduality#enlightenment#freedom Letting Go of the Ego: Because the ego has multiple aspects, it is not practical or effective to dissolve all of it at once, nor is it likely that you could do so. Much like a tree or large bush that is overgrown in the yard, you don’t just lift it out and throw it away – you cut off manageable pieces instead. The same approach is effective with letting go of the false beliefs that make up the ego. You begin by detaching from individual thoughts that reinforce the ego, then let go of beliefs, separating yourself from the false identity of your ego. We have spent years building our ego self-images, living inside of them, and reinforcing them. Extracting our genuine self out of this matrix of false beliefs will take more than a few days. Yes, it will take a while… so what. It also took a while to learn to read, do math, walk, and develop proficiency at any valuable skill. Things worth doing take time and practice. What better thing do you have to do than let go of what is causing you unhappiness? ❤

@Annoynymous The mind likes to think in opposites. Either I am fully aware and present all of the time, or I am lost in thought all of the time. From a personal perspective, I’ve found it helpful to have reasonable goals. Expecting to go from a continuously thinking chatterbox to abiding thoughtless presence is an extremely high standard. It’s like going from a couch potato to an Olympic gold marathon runner. Rather, I found more realistic goals helpful. At one point, I estimated that 90% of my life was lost in thought of past/future and lacked presence. My goal was to decrease that to 50% over a three month period. Everyday, I had “Now workouts”. They started with 30min a day increased to 2hrs a day. I told my mind can do what it wants the rest of the day, yet for the next 30min. it’s a Now Workout. Just like we were going to lift weights at the gym. My Now workouts included things like meditation, gardening, self massage, yoga and watching nonduality videos. In the beginning, there were only a few gaps here and there (a few seconds). Over time, my mind got better and better at it. I remember one day I was walking in nature and my mind effortlessly relaxed. Then I suddenly realized “It’s Now! And I’m not even doing a Now workout!”. Thoughts arise Now, yet for me thinking was the biggest hindrance. It’s so easy to get mesmerized and captivated by thinking. So I put a lot of practice into relaxing the mind body, slow down thinking and develop an observer awareness to thoughts - such that there wasn’t attachment and identification to the thoughts. As well, there may be underlying conditioning/karma that keeps sending impulses and needs to be released.

All nonduality teachings are not the same... You can explore everything we have discussed on this post for yourself. For example have you ever experienced anything other than THIS. Have you experienced the "ME" character created since birth is an illusion, and starts dissolving when closely looked at and questioned deeply. ❤

Greetings kamekat and welcome to the forum Sometimes it's hard to know if the struggles we all experience are just part of the process, or a sign that we aren't on the optimal path or technique for ourselves. It takes time to build up that experience, especially if we are following a solo path, rather than belonging to an organisation. But as a rule of thumb, there's no need to be judgemental about your meditation sessions. If it feels like a struggle and you can't keep your attention on your meditation object, that doesn't mean it's a bad or unsuccessful session. Likewise, a focused, relaxed and blissful session isn't necessarily better. You develop and make progress either way. Me too. I have a basic theoretical understanding in my mind, but only enough to get bogged down in paradox. But that's kind of the point, the spiritual side of nonduality (as opposed to the philosophical side) is trying to point us beyond the intellectual understanding to direct awareness. Hence the promotion of practices like meditation and yoga. So the moral is, don't worry if you don't understand nonduality. Feel free to treat all the ideas here as purely provisional until you have built up your own experience to the level when you can find out for yourself.

@IChoseTheRedPill On a personal note, I’m so very sorry to hear of your loss. On the actuality, or existential note, grief - the feeling, not the thought content - can be a bridge into nonduality when we explore into the feeling nuance, as to wether grief is essential to our being. This is revealing of what is essential to our being, which in turn brings tremendous peace, changing the content, and the feeling of, grief. In the sense, pain, suffering, loss... can be the wrapping on unthinkable gifts, insights, and realizations, of Love...Self-Love.

Ah, this is the kind of conversation I've been missing having on the forum lately, thank you. It's not a must or a responsibility, it's more like a desire that cannot be quenched, and that desire is to feel good. All real, honest responsibility and morality comes from love, it comes from feeling or intuiting that hurting others hurts ourselves. It's all essentially about the desire to feel good, or to feel love. It feels a lot better to stand up with courage and say something rather than to watch something that feels awful continue around you. I believe that you are right about insights being distortions, and yet an insight is not an insight because of what is communicated from the insight, it's an insight because of the way it feels. The true "insight" is never what's communicated. However, insights CAN be communicated, because this entire game we are playing of awakening, is just that, a game. Where does the real story of The Lord of the Rings exist? Is it in the letters, or on the paper of the books? It requires your intelligence to decipher the words and give them meaning and your imagination and heart to make it into a story. You say that you love the books, and credit them for how you feel about the story. But you love much, much more than just the book. Nonduality never, excludes, it always includes. We cannot exclude insights as devilry, so they have to be like beautiful easter eggs on the scavenger hunt "story" of awakening. Love is the thing that includes. So love your insights, like you love The Lord of The Rings, knowing that it's much more than you can say. Love can only appear to be directed at something. There only appears to be a source of light and an object reflecting it.

Why learn about deep deep nonduality from teachers that are deeply entrenched in duality? LMAO indeed

Leo's teachings are too advanced for most of you to fathom. How about you guys try and directly experience what he's telling you. If you're not interested in deep deep nonduality then you should probably stop watching his videos and go do something else. But please don't criticise him when you have no direct experience to back you up.

So I said I was going away. I didn't think I could feel any worse, but I do. I've spent a lot of time investigating DMT experiences etc over the last couple of days. It's clear that many thousands of people think that the world isn't what it seems. Does Paul exist? In spirit form? I don't think so. I don't know for sure, but it's unlikely. This whole nonduality thing has totally destroyed my life. I've not had an experience of it, but i don't know if I want it either. The thing is, when I read about DMT trips, people come back and still refer to themselves and others. Doesn't this go against everything said here? Leo is quite clear: you do not exist. So why do anything? Why shouldn't I kill myself? Believe me, I want to end it so bad. I'm not scared of dying anymore, and I'm not scared of hurting others. In truth, they probably don't exist anyway. Each day I wake up it gets harder and harder. I don't see any point in carrying on. I've googled all the possible ways of suicide. I don't want to jump off a bridge. I've set up a makeshift noose hanging from a beam in my loft, but that doesn't feel right. I tried to cut my wrists, then I fell asleep, but I woke up and the bleeding.had stopped. I can't get my hands on pills to take. Truth is, killing yourself ain't easy, even when you've no desire to be here anymore. It's the strangest thing. I tried meditating today using Leo's do nothing method. I just let go and ended up falling to sleep. I had an horrific dream and woke up drenched in sweat. No appetite. No energy. Fuzzy head. Lost all hope. Reality isn't reality. And for whatever people will say here, "get help, see a professional" - it's not going to fix anything. In truth, if you're all adhering to nonduality, it makes no difference if I jack it in or not. So what are we doing here? I just read a post about sympathy on the other section. Why would we give sympathy to others if they don't exist? Everything you say here is probably right. But it makes everything pointless. Utterly pointless. If anyone has any ingenious tips on suicide or anything, please PM me. Anything that can help. Either dying or getting out of this. Shit I'd try dmt or something, but in the UK I've no idea how to source it.