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Maybe. But I think there's so much stuff which we don't know. Maybe it's possible to die consciously by damaging the body, because maybe full control over the life force in the body is a separate skill. Or maybe there is no difference between unconscious and conscious death, maybe all deaths are the same. Food for thought (just a mind game): what if proper mahasamadhi would be easy to do? What if in average 1 actualized follower per month or something would do mahasamdhi, would you still support proper mahasamdhi or would you condemn it? I think you would then condemn it. You would be forced to.. Of course there happened stuff after the camera stopped recording. Maybe they checked his pulse. Maybe he continued living. Maybe he committed normal physical suicide after the camera stopped recording (maybe it was a normal suicide faked as mahasamdhi). Etc.

Well that video doesn't prove anything whatsoever. And it definitely doesn't prove that he died. And I don't understand why people think it's ok to committ suicide without damaging the body, but it's absolutely not ok to committ suicide by damaging the body.

❤ Creation, Creativity, the Mother, Earth, Nourishment, Emotions, Feeling, life as art is the side of spirituality that gives birth and celebrates life. When you're focused on that ego death and physical death don't get confused. Life IS already your creative license, you're freedom itself. Many people try to kill their egos from a point of feeling fundamentally flawed and unworthy of life echoed in a dissatisfaction with life. It'll never work. You'll never get there. You're loved so much, as Love itself, there's no end to you. Interesting that the male suicide rate is far higher than that of females. If there's space made for emotions, space for healing, emotional intelligence and understanding of emotions as a guidance system, I suspect that this tragic and painful mix up and misunderstanding will occur far less. ?

Yes I am. I want salvation and complete liberation from dreams. Eternal black state. Suicide is not an option it's idiotic.

I made this a year or two ago. It still holds up pretty well. This is just another angle to view suicide from which might be helpful. Suicide- Should We Do It? (Explaining the Existential Danger of Suicide to Society)

I sent my PM. This is along the lines of my life purpose. Logic points me to think that it would fit like a glove. I’ve already been trying to do this stuff for years and have talked multiple people from suicide and other crisis situations before. Dealing with Bipolar Depression

Another one I thought of is "life being hard itself" may prevent suicide in that we find some joy to conquering how hard it is. We find joy in overcoming things that we didn't think we could overcome. As leo has said in one of his recent videos, if life was easy, it would be too boring. although it could be so hard that it is hard to find joy in anything so I can see that it would be tough. The happy medium of not being too hard nor too easy is one to strive for. Too easy - too bored. Too hard - don't want to participate anymore. When we see it is a game though - we may want to back out of the game but see that that would hurt our friends who are in the game and we have attachment to them. There is also that once left the game, you are gone from it forever and that kinda doesn't let you explore the game anymore.

We need more disclaimers that the teachings here do not promote suicide. So a person who connects such teachings to suicide will think twice about it It's extremely irresponsible to take the teachings out of context and blame the suicide on these teachings. More warnings in videos and constant disclaimers around these teachings from both Leo and mods For example when someone gives spiritual advice please put disclaimers in paranthesis that it shouldn't be used to cause body harm. This way the blame is not on the forum and the person won't associate such advice with suicide plans. The spiritual advice in these posts could have easily been accompanied with disclaimers of no body harm.

This is still within the context of a thing called "death". This is the standard realm we are all familiar with. Yet Sunny clearly stated he was not in this realm (or wanted to transcend it). He said it was not an escape nor an ending. It was a transcendence. He was happy and had a great life. Based on what we know, he wasn't trying to escape and end suffering. He wasn't trying to end this life in hope for a better reincarnated life. This is difficult for most people to understand because they are so oriented toward escaping suffering and gaining joy. An analogy, imagine you are walking in a forest and encounter a mountain lion. You will feel fear and want to escape from the lion. You want to survive. You have a gf and are planning on having a child. This is at the human/personal level. The person identifies as me and wants to do whats best for me. Here's the hard part. Imagine identification is with the entire forest. Now "me" = "the forest". So now what is best for "me"? Well, if "me" is the forest than it might be best that the lion eats the person. Notice how it's all "me". This sounds insane from a personal level, yet it is not insane from a transcendent level. . . In the opposite direction, there are misfolded proteins in your cells that get digested and recycled. Yet you don't care because "me" isn't a misfolded protein and you aren't concerned what's best for that misfolded protein. Rather "me" is ALL of the cells in "my" body and I care about what's best for the entire body. If misfolded proteins accumulate, all sorts of diseases result. Therefore it's best that those misfolded proteins get digested and recycled. From personal/human perspective, this won't make sense and it may even seem psychotic. . . How could someone compare a human being to a misfolded protein!!?? Yet from a transcendent perspective, notice how there is no "escape" or "ending". In the first example, after the person is eaten by a lion, "me" (the forest) still exists. The forest hasn't escaped itself or ended. Similarly, after the misfolded protein is digested there is still the human being. There was no "escape" or "ending". Now imagine a person is oscillating back and forth between identifying as "me" being the human body and "me" being the forest. Sometimes the identification is the entire forest, sometimes it is contracted within the human body. There may be desire to transcend attachment / identification to the human body and become the entire forest. At the human/personal level, this is madness and insanity. Yet at a transhuman metaphysical level, it is sane. And this isn't unique to actualized. Humans have been reaching these transcendent states for thousands of years. Analogies that life is a dream goes waaaay back in time. This is nothing new. Yes, at a human/personal level is was scattered and misunderstood reasoning. Yet at a transhuman metaphysical level, it gets trickier. I'm in no way suggesting killing oneself. Yet from a transhuman metaphysical level, the idea of "killing", "oneself" and "death" are very different. Notice how in spiritual circles there is metaphysical talk about how there is no birth or death. Yet when a being kills themself, the spiritual circle immediately snaps back to the human/personal level and says "Oh wait. . . yea. There is death. Believing there is no death is foolish". At this time, Leo is only willing to discuss the issue at the personal / human level. Not a transhuman / metaphysical level. @RendHeaven I agree with you. Yet I want to strongly stress that these are not Leo's teachings or actualized. Teachings about transcending the human mind-body, death is illusory, everything is a dream etc. is standard nonduality and metaphysics. We might consider it advanced, yet it is not unique to Leo or actualized. People like Deepak Chopra talk in these terms regularly. As well, Leo promotes transcendence via psychedelics. I understand why Leo would revert to the personal/human level because he is dealing with others at the personal/human level. If he communicated at a transhuman/metaphysical level (like we are in this thread), it would be misinterpreted and there would be a huge backlash. Yet at the same time, I'm really disappointed that Sunny has been portrayed as a "fool that misinterpreted teachings" and very few people on the forum questioned it. I thought more people were at a higher conscious level. I think it's a real issue regarding transcendence that should be addressed, rather than swept under the rug. I also think it is good that Leo is now stressing "ego death" rather than "physical death". Again, I am not condoning suicide for transcendence. I'm trying to understand the conscious state in which a being would take their physical life to transcend it. I think this mentality is important to understand how we communicate.

This is a good move. It will help people with Emotional issues to open up rather being demonized. I think often the main reason why people with such issues end up committing suicide is because they're being labeled as unhinged or lunatic and the fear of such branding causes them to not open up about how they actually feel. As a result they can never get the help they want. Opening up about such issues is the first step Also understand that constantly telling a person to seek professional counseling is not helpful because many people do not have access to such resources or these resources aren't helping them. And we can never know what sort of struggles they are going through. So it's important to have someone on board on here who will help a person open up about their issues. I'm pretty sure that with adequate support from the mod, most people wouldn't commit suicide or take extreme measures. Most often during such situations all you need is someone to simply talk you out of it. During the moment. Even if the person talking you out of it is a stranger. In case of Sunny/Soonhei he wasn't very vocal about his intentions. I'm pretty sure if he was, then most people would have talked him out and this tragedy could have been prevented. All you need is to be more open about how you feel. But for this a community is supposed to be supportive rather than demonizing. Stop labeling people for their issues or making them feel branded. Stop shaming them for their Emotional issues and they will be more likely to open up. And with an effective mod on board, they can easily feel better and recover. The flip side being if they don't feel better then it's a tricky area. In which case they could be told to seek help and not use spirituality because the spiritual advice will only make them worse. I notice that in the meditation section some of these people casually talk about death. This is dangerous and I saw Soonhei/Sunny in that section. I never saw him in the Emotional Section. I can tell you from my experience that people who are emotional and suicidal are less likely to.commit suicide because they tend to develop resilience against it. It's mostly people who are least expected to commit suicide who actually end up doing it. It's tricky. I think the Meditation Section needs some bullshit-proof modding. I see tons of bullshit everyday in that section, posts that don't make any sense, spirituality applied very casually, death being heralded as some sort of spiritual glory, Stop that BS. People who come in there need to be monitored and told to not promote crazy ideas about subjectivity I think this forum lacks objectivity. I understand that spirituality is important but a bit of objectivity will keep you grounded in life. A bit of rationality. I never see anyone being challenged on their lack of rationality in the meditation section. If someone makes a post that jumping off a bridge is transcendence to higher reality then make the person seriously consider what they are thinking. This kind of thinking creates blunder. People who lack rationality need to be challenged seriously on their framework. It's delusional to not understand the difference between life and death and use spirituality as an explanation for normal everyday life stuff. That's why all these Turquoise Teachings in that section needs serious consideration. They talk about these teachings pretty flippantly. I mean are you going to stop eating food because you think there is no self. Where is the objectivity in this ? Some of the questions asked there seriously blows my mind because it doesn't make sense. I think disclaimers such "please don't use these teachings to cause body harm or neglect common sense in everyday life" will be extremely helpful. Because these people are bordering on not understanding the difference between spirituality and basic common sense for everyday survival. Incidents like the Soonhei thing are more likely to occur through such blurring and misunderstandings between spiritual and pragmatic. I would say keep putting up more disclaimers. Ultimately suicide is a personal issue. The forum has a large number of people coming in. Statistics will always exist. At least one person out of so many will always end up doing such things because even in general population, 40,000 commit suicide every year. At the end of the day, a seemingly normal person can end up taking their life despite showing no signs of depression or ideation. People even take their lives if they have financial issues. It's not always about mental health. These things are unavoidable and so the forum ultimately cannot be held responsible for someone's personal choices. Make clear cut disclaimers that the forum is not responsible for how a person conducts themselves in their lives nor is the forum responsible for their personal choices. What people eventually do is their own discretion. Nobody can really stop a person if they really decide to take their life. It's absurd to hold people responsible for someone's personal choices. At the same time, moderation on the Meditation Section needs to be done and people need to be told to stop mixing common sense with spiritual theory. They are seriously misrepresenting non dual teaching in the Meditation Section. Always taking it out of context. Concentrate mod resources into the Meditation and Emotional Section. For example use disclaimers while giving spiritual advice. The spiritual advice in these posts could have easily been accompanied with disclaimers of no body harm. This is not a hard thing to do for the mods.

Sounds like your in a "strangeloop". Sorry for the pun, but I've noticed a lot of user names match how people see themselves or the quality of life they have. I'm not sure how to exactly help you, but I have been down my own depressive road before and wanted to die, and deeply thought about and almost went through suicide. First thing I'd get to the bottom of is if you had a choice between relaxing or going through what you are, would you choose to relax? If so, what are some things that relax you? Maybe do some more of that, and if this negative voice comes up, just say hey, lets just relax, thats what we want. This may only work if you deeply get to the truth if you'd rather suffer or relax. Sometimes a good bit of self care can help you unwind just enough to get your wits back and then maybe make some progress to getting some abs back

@Michael569 @StarStruck Hey guys, I just thought that, see how many celebrities that committed suicide or got serious addictions, obviously being good looking didn’t help them much. Even if they also have talent beside the looks. Maybe it’s even harder if add fame to the mix? Is it a totally different story for people who are good looking but without fame?

It was clear that you didn't promote suicide, and you clarified that once more (and even more clearly) in your last video. It's good that you put more warnings in the descriptions of your videos (and maybe remind that sometimes while you talk), but other than that, I would suggest, just move on: don't spend too much time and energy on that topic.

I know with unwavering intuitive certainty that Leo's most recent 2 hour video was ALL about damage control. Leo knows, as do I, that all beings are imagined, Likewise with "physical death." So if anyone is to have compassion for Sunny's in-the-moment jumping experience, it ought to be Leo! Sunny's actions (from the stories we heard) were done out of Love. He literally killed himself for Love. This is, in a certain sense, in-line with Leo's teachings - and I think Leo knows this. Except Leo simply cannot ever admit any of this for the social survival of Actualized.org. He has his entire life's work to protect. And so, protect he will. In his recent video, Leo furiously draws the line between "ego death" and "physical death" - advocating for the former and not the latter - despite, according to him, the two ultimately being the same - and then proceeds to label anyone going for the latter as a "misinterpreting fool." To be clear - I'm not advocating for physical suicide myself, for social reasons. What I am advocating for though, is a recognition of Sunny's Love - and we must un-label him as a "misinterpreting fool" if we are to do this. --- P.S. if it sounds like I am glorifying death here, in a certain sense I am. What Sunny did was beautiful. To call it ugly or wrong is itself the misinterpretation! But I can only say this personally because I understand the ineffable perfection of the cycle of life and death. I dare not say this straight-faced to someone living from survival-bias (out of compassion!) I write as I do here, because of the context I heard - that Sunny died willingly and happily. Please, let's honor this. Regarding the family members - this one is tricky. My heart extends out to them, for their suffering is undeniable. And who am I to tell them that "Sunny's death was not only illusory, but also beautiful"? - even if this is The Truth? Rather, I bite my lip - and share condolences, for that is what my heart says is the necessary public expression for this occasion. What a weird position to be in! I believe Leo understands this. The only difference being, Leo additionally has a collective ego to uphold. So that's where his focus is.

Murder, Mystery and Makeup Baily Sarian is a YT personality. In her videos, she tells stories of mysterious serial killers as she puts on makeup. She is a very good story teller and very good with makeup. She is a type of artist. Her videos get millions of views - nearly all women. I'd estimate 99% women. Why are many women fascinated by serial killers? It seems counter-intuitive. Women are the victims of serial killers that have deranged, violent minds. Yet here we have millions of women watching Baily Sarian tell stories about serial killers. In my own life experience, I've met many women with fascination with serial killers. Many of my female students have revealed to me their fascination in private. Yet they keep it secret. I've never seen a woman be openly transparent. It's too taboo, which I think fuels the fascination. To get a sense if a woman might have this intrigue, I may casually state my interest in abnormal psychology - weird ways the mind works. Safer topics would be things like depression or schizophrenia. Next level would be sociopathy or psychopathy. Yet there can't be an energy of stigma, judgement or creepiness. It's a very sensitive area. Then, one might casually say "Yea, I watched a documentary on serial killers which was fascinating". . . I've noticed it's much harder for a man to connect with a woman on this intrigue. I imagine it would be much easier for two women to chat about this intrigue together. What is the reaction of most people to the mindset of serial killers. Most people react with repulsion and label the person a sicko that deserves to rot in jail. This has some truth to it, yet it is also a block to exploring other aspects. This mindset won't allow for curiosity about how a serial killer is formed and what their mentality is. There behavior is horrendous from one perspective, yet they've also led interesting lives. To see this takes a higher level of open-mindedness and curiosity. One of the blocks is that if someone is curious to learn about a serial killer, then they are condoning the behavior and they themself have sick mind. The next level is a deeper curiosity of what that mindset is actually like to the point one almost experiences it and 'gets it' from the perspective of the serial killer. This isn't an observer from a distance, it's actually crawling into the mind 1st person. This takes a special mind to do since there are risks of trauma and psychosis. An example would be a method actor. This is a method in which the actor immerses themself in environments that displace an old mindset with a new mindset - so they actually become the new mindset. Yet this has risks. Some method actors couldn't come back from the new character they adopted. The woman in the movie Psycho was a method actor that got so deep into becoming a woman being murdered, that she lost touch with what was "real" and what was "imagined". Other method actors have gone insane or committed suicide during or after their movie roles. I have a fascination with both "abnormal" psychology and delving into different mindsets to get a sense of what it's actually like. Yet from a personal view, this has a danger of not being able to restabalize. For example, I've gone deep into what it would be like to be held in solitary confinement, postpartum disorder, multiple personality and psychopathy. I've gone so deep into this method acting, that I've needed professional therapy to pull me out. And there were aspects of mini-traumas. One thing I've learned to help me shift back toward "normal" is to change my relationship to it as if it was a dream. We've all had deeply disturbing dreams, yet the impact isn't deep when the mind categorizes it as "just a dream". You could have a deeply disturbing dream and wake up shaking in tears, yet then realize "Oh, it was just a dream", then shake it off and move on with your day. For example, one might dream that they were psychotic and being abused in mental institution, then wake up and realize it was just a dream. It might have some lingering effects, yet it wouldn't be traumatic as if it actually happened. Yet this is much more difficult to do in "real" life. If someone experienced the harm anxiety of postpartum in real life, there is a much deeper impact on the mind and body. It's much more difficult to shake it off as "just a dream". The mind and body becomes entangled with the experience and identity. For a couple years, I tried to learn how to lucid dream. I tried reality checks, wake-sleep-wake cycles, dream journaling etc. I didn't have much success. Yet oddly, I had moments of lucid dreaming while "awake". I honestly didn't know if I was awake or dreaming. I started doing reality checks while awake to see if I was awake. Then distinctions between dream and awake begin to break down. Often, spiritual people use the metaphor that "life is a dream", yet this is a concept. The direct experience is very different. I'm quite intrigued by Sunny's story - his experience and mindset. If you have labeled Sunny a "fool that misinterpreted teachings", you will confine yourself to one realm and will not be able to enter other realms of exploration. This is a self-protection mechanism. If a mind labels Sunny "a fool that misinterpreted teachings", it can stay in it's safe zone. Similar to labeling someone "crazy" or "psychotic". One can distance themself and avoid going there, because going there can be threatening. Above I described three levels of exploration: 1) Labeling as "foolish", "psychotic" and pushing away, 2) having curiosity to learn about a mindset and 3) having curiosity so deep to experience the mindset. Overall, the forum is at level 1. The main reason is that there is a strong authoritarian leader that has set a narrative of "he was a fool, mentally ill" etc. that misinterpreted teachings. This has truth, yet is contracted within one realm. It also serves to stabalize an unstable community into one shared narrative. As well, it helps to protect a community from outside threats. Notice how nearly the entire forum community as accepted the narrative. It takes metacognition to see that this is only one realm within a larger network of realms. Very few minds can do this. One reason I'm able to do it is because of direct experiential learning and curiosity to explore. When someone tells me "this is how it is", my orientation is to see that ISness and then see other perspectives. Sunny was both foolish and non-foolish. Sunny had understandings of dualities integrated with nonduality. In his writings, he asks questions of whether to jump was foolish or non-foolish. I'm curious if Leo is consciously aware that he is contracting the story into one realm and has rationalized doing so. Or, if he is contracted within that realm and can only consciously see the "foolish" side to Sunny. There are a lot of pressures on him to only see the "foolish" side. Inspecting the non-foolish side is the hard road and would take effort and risk. The secondary reason for the forum being at level 1 is because it's a simple, easy narrative to say Sunny was "foolish and misinterpreted teachings". It takes much more effort and curiosity to explore Sunny's experience and potential mindset. My prediction is that if the situation was framed differently the majority of people on the forum would be open and curious to explore level 2. For example, suppose this occurred to someone in another spiritual community that actualized had no relation to. Imagine there was a documentary produced that went deep into lucid dreaming, spirituality, transcendence and death. In this case, I can see the majority of the forum being open to discuss and explore this. I could see an active thread on it. This is happening with other spiritual communities. I have a friend in another spiritual community that has never heard of actualized. We recently had a conversation about life as a dream, lucid dreaming, transcendence and death. Since she didn't label Sunny as a "fool" and has no attachment/identification to actualized, we were able to explore various mindsets together. Yet I predict very few people would want to venture into level 3. People have other stuff going into life and don't want to spend time and effort diving into mindsets of lucid dreaming and transcendence. As well, it is threatening. Most people would not want to dive so deep into the mindset that they know what it's like because that conscious space involves transcending a life dream via jumping. Over the last two days, I've explored these waters using my previous experience, Sunny's writings, my imagination and trying to energetically/empathically connect. A key through an initial door is to come to understand that it isn't an escape or end - it is a transcendence - as Sunny wrote. Again, this is a different realm and very few minds would want to enter that realm to see what it's like. I myself have had to pull myself back form going to deep into the waters for my own mental health and stability. Yet it adds a new twist. Previously, I would pull back from deep waters by changing my relationship with it to "it was just a dream". Yet the twist here is that the deep waters itself contains "it's just a dream". To me, those waters are both intriguing and dangerous.

In light of recent events we are tightening the ship around here. I am looking for a few additional Mods who will specialize in looking for posts/users who are going through difficult emotional stuff and suicidal thoughts or dark nights of the soul, and helping to guide such people towards professional help. You are not going to be their therapist, but in this role you will be dealing with more emotional issues so I'm looking for people who are interested in that kind of work. This role requires high empathy for struggling people and lots of patience. Your primary job would be to monitor the forum for people who are seriously struggling, depressed, or suicidal, and helping to guide them towards some real-world treatment options because this forum is not sufficient for such hard cases. Such people need real-world support and your role would be to hold them over until they can get it. And also to report back to me any members who are in serious danger of suicide. Because as this forum continues we will inevitably run into such people here. It's not avoidable and we need this place to be safe from any crazy self-harm incidents. Also, look out for any people considering Mahasamadhi. We are not gonna be allowing that here. If this role sounds like it fits you, please PM me.

@Salvijus Yeah I understand you but it still has to come full circle into the realization that life is as well as much truth as anything else since there is no distinction made in actuality only mind might do it. But I somehow i do feel that if full 100% cessation forever would be possible then there would not be this here. If GOD could cease itself it would strangeloop into that it is full aware again if you get me ? Sounds a bit like theravadin(spelling?) Buddhism that stresses more or less "spiritual suicide " but it was not really the Buddhas teachings, anatta for example was more a statement meant : This is not my soul that is not my soul etc. Not that Self is unreal. The yellow robes theravadins teaches " this is all there ism" IE the psycho physical is all that there is. It comes as no suprise that thousands of years old teachings gets corrupted. Buddha was asked what to call his path or teaching and he said it would be called : Brahma jama or something like that, which means path to Brahman or Path to the Absolute. He taught liberation but not really spiritual suicide. He was more in line with Advaita Vedanta then not. But who cares right ?‍♂️ And on the psychedelics part even science says it shutdowns the default mode network more or less, IE ego process. But for that to happend you need a pretty high dose usually but some people can get it on 150 mcg lsd but not in my case. Ego death can be a tough nut to stomach when it happens as well but afterwards it is bliss more or less. It shows alot i feel for how the death process will unfold or atleast the beginning part of it. So it is more to learn to stomach to die. But 10 trips etc is not enough either to get a grasp on it. But psychedelics is not the end all be all either, contemplation/meditation/self inquiry is necessary imo. Cheers mate ?

The whole thing about the suicide shook me to the core and left me anxious, sleepless and depressed. I pray that this never happens again ever. I need to take some urgent measures precautionary measures because who knows I might be telling someone here some non dual theory and they can take it the wrong way.

@soos_mite_ah If you don't mind, I Just want to offer my perspective. Not trying to argue yours in any way, simply offering mine. I think one can look at this situation both objectively and subjectively. Yes there is compassion in both sides. I preside with the objective side meanwhile keeping room for the subjective side as well. I understand that certain comments on the forum could have caused Sunny to think that death is not a big deal and how some teachings could have made him not realise the seriousness of Death. Many things to unpack here. 1 One that these teachings do not belong to Leo or Actualized Org exclusively or to forum members. These teachings are worldwide non dual teachings and are similar in all spiritual communities. These teachings carry an inherent risk which most people bypass since they understand the objective nature of reality and do not take subjective teachings with a grain of salt. Leo Gura or people of the forum are in no way responsible for inventing these teachings. They already exist. 2 Leo has made so many videos which talk about the dangers of spiritual teachings and practice. There are many many videos on this. I can give you links if you want. Not just Leo, there are tons of people in spiritual communities that issue such warnings. 3 Leo has consistently helped people who have been suicidal to not be suicidal. He has always been very life affirming. In fact his videos have helped many many people to recover from depression and suicide ideation. Even tacitly implying in a video that Leo could be responsible for this is a huge blunder. 4 Leo has gone out of his way in the forum guidelines to issue warnings about how his teachings shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt and that this is not a cult. Cult is a huge term that involves a lot of things. It involves threatening and pressuring people to do things for the leader. This is just group think. An echo chamber mentality but just borderline Echo chamber. It's not like Leo does not allow independent thinking here. He absolutely does. Leo doesn't control anyone's behaviour. Leo does not tell what people should do. For someone to constantly keep refering to this as a cult is a very childish. In being critical of his video, there was no cult behaviour shown.. I simply said that he is misrepresenting things and that can easily appear as slander and this is no cult like behaviour. Leo has himself said many times that this is not a cult. 5 I think every adult knows that suicide is a wrong option. This need not be specifically told. Leo has also said that his spirituality is not designed for those who have mental illnesses and who do not understand his teachings properly. 6 Often people misinterpret teachings. Leo like any other spiritual teacher is not exempt to this situation. Many people might misconstrue his teachings and he cannot help. He cannot have the resources to help each and every person or figure out exactly they are taking his actions. That's a tall order that is impossible to fill. 7 People on the forum had absolutely no clue that the guy was suicidal in any way or if he had such intent. In fact, he wasn't suicidal in the traditional kind of way. Most suicidal people exhibit overly emotional behaviours and usually talk about it openly to people. Or they leave clues that they are depressed. However Sunny did not leave such clues. He appeared quite happy, optimistic and positive. Also that he used to talk in a poetic manner, there was no way to exactly know if he was being serious or simply dancing around concepts. So most people here are innocent because they didn't have any beforehand knowledge and by his demeanor could not have known that he was about to kill himself. This innocence needs to be considered and it's a big factor. Had these people known that he was going to do that, then they would have obviously told the person to not do it. We here as a community, including me, have always helped people with suicidal thoughts. This is not some suicide death cult. Here people are very keen on telling people to not self harm. It's the opposite environment here. Well I feel very sad that Sunny did what he did, I also understand that if he even slightly tried to openly express his intention, people would have jumped to action. Not blaming him but suggesting that this action from his end could have easily prevented this from happening. Also these people are not only innocent but are also dealing with grief. They had the best intentions and interests for Sunny. So if they are being blamed,it's a double blow on top of dealing with the grief of losing someone who they considered a friend 8 There is something called as self ownership and personal responsibility which cannot be dismissed or taken for granted. Neither in this nor in any other case. Sunny had a wife and kids. I cannot imagine leaving my kids alone behind. With marriage and kids personal responsibility gets tighter and stricter because now you're not only responsible for your own self but also responsible for the lives of others that you brought into this world through marriage. Sunny had a huge responsibility to his family. Even if he is a suicide victim, he was still accountable for how his actions were to impact his family. Self responsibility and ownership is not a blame game. It's about telling a person that they also have the power to do things that they are accountable for. In this case, I see a bit of recklessness in this department. The person was expected to show a certain level of responsibility on how his actions might impact his children in the future. He should have reflected on his thoughts and been vocal about it. He wasn't being actively coerced or coached or directed or brainwashed into killing himself. There is no such evidence. Because he never openly talked about suicide. Suicide and death are two different things. Suicide is a serious situation and he never said he was suicidal. And death in spiritual communities can easily mean spiritual death, ego death etc. One cannot know for sure what a person might be alluding to. I often do not agree with Leo or ANY spiritual teacher or psychonaut that ever claims any experience of any kind, psychedelic or not, as being Enlightenment or realizing Absolute Truth as Enlightenment is not nor will ever be an experience. Having said that, Leo is not responsible for this guy's death. Leo has gone to extensive ends, more than any spiritual teacher or even psychonaut, when it comes to the dangers of spiritual and contemplative work and of course the use of psychedelics. Leo advocates and has taught from the beginning taking and also recognizing one's personal 100% responsibility for one's choices and actions. This guy is responsible for acting on his own impulses, desires, and delusions and that's not on anyone, to be quite frank. Leo is transparent and clear when it comes to the dangers in this work. He encourages all the time in his work for people to slow down and to approach this work with, caution, skepticism, open-mindedness, an understanding of the propensity of the mind to delude itself, that this work isn't for everyone, and much more. Examples of such things mentioned in his videos: - The Dangers Of Spiritual Work - Understanding Ego Backlash Self-Deception Part 1 Self Deception- Part 2-60+ Self Deception Mechanisms Self-Deception Part 3 - The Role Of Balance In Personal Development Becoming A Zen Devil - The Dangers Of Half-Assing Enlightenment -The Dark Side Of Meditation - How To Use Psychedelics For Personal Development On his website/forum: https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/7-guidelines/ https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/36-seek-professional-help-for-serious-issues-important/ There is empathy and compassion in wanting someone to be responsible as well. This is just my objective way of looking at it. Meanwhile I don't say that the subjective is entirely wrong but I don't want to lose sight of the obvious objectivity in this matter. There are nuances of course, but the major points aren't wrong either. I'm not trying to offer this from a point of judgement but rather compassion which is not easily visible on the outside however considering these points might prevent someone from taking their lives in the future. And take this work very seriously.

@Pouya I think you make an important point about newbies skipping to advanced points. Maybe the actualized videos should be set into various playlists from the least advanced to the most advanced. If a newbie jumps to the most recent videos there is not a chance that they will understand it. If there were an order set for watching the videos, actualized could minimize the people taking these teachings the wrong way. Maybe there should be a playlist for the most beginner friendly material. The dangers of spiritual work should be at the beginning of the advanced playlists. This will serve as a warning for those who don't know what they are getting themselves into. The beginning of advanced teachings will make it clear not to harm the body or commit suicide.

Although this site has helped me to grow a lot, there are some problems. 1. The spiritual forum has too many threads which entertain the idea of suicide as a valid spiritual practice. There needs to be a pinned thread at the top to address the idea of suicide for spiritual reasons. If there continues to be discussions about suicide and spirituality on this forum it will muddy the waters and some people will fall into the trap of harming the body. I discussed suicide with somebody in this forum before. He mentioned that he did not fear death. If I did not correct what he was thinking, then he might have killed himself. Moderators should take these types of discussions more seriously and should lock threads that discuss validity in suicide as a spiritual method. These kinds of discussions should not be happening in the forum. It needs to be dismissed immediately in a pinned thread at the top of the forum. 2. Actualized.org cannot exempt itself from the issue of mental illness. Given this YouTube format with people all over the world watching, inevitably people with sick minds will watch and corrupt the teachings. In case somebody with a mental illness comes across this channel, there needs to be a greater emphasis on seeking professional help if there are any thoughts of harming yourself or someone else. This can be helpful for people who have serious trauma bubbling up during meditation. The assumption of this channel is that the listeners are mentally stable, but this assumption is clearly wrong. A person who needs mental help does not want to admit that they need it. They will be prone to the self deception that they are healthy enough to watch these videos. One thing I can compliment you for so far is that you made the description more robust in the videos. It is critical that mention the possibility of worsening serious mental conditions by misusing these teachings. 3. The most practical videos for me were emotional mastery. This includes childhood vows, anger, depression, envy, and many more. I shared these videos with my brother when he had some emotional problems. He asked "why don't they teach this school?". My brother and I both found it extremely helpful. If you want to help people ease the intensity of ego backlash and psychological trauma, you should make more videos on practical psychology. If you over emphasize advanced spiritual topics, many newbies might skip the necessary foundation set in older videos years ago. I want to thank you for your work so far. You helped me to see the value in personal development and spirituality.

I'm trying to take a break from the whole situation right now. The Suicide and the aftermath have taken a toll on me. I wish I never read that thread and never watched that video. It's cursed. My haunted spirit is never going to forget this nightmare. I felt on the verge of dying I felt hyper emotional. This wasn't okay by any means. I'll consciously stay away from anything that makes me emotional in this place..

This is super interesting and captivating, lots of valuable comments in this thread. I'm deeply sorry for the family of the deceased! Also, sending Leo some basic human compassion - he seems to be handling the fallout and evaluating responsibility just fine, but I imagine it must be emotionally difficult too. I'm one of the people coming into spirituality from a place of depression (though not suicidal level) and anxiety, my core interests in personal development have been emotions, relationships, trauma healing. I'm greatful to Leo for introducing me to some philosophy and spirituality too . My progress is slow, I've been following since forever (2016), and awakening is still over my head. It would never occur to me to take Leo's teachings as promoting suicide. For me, they are fascinating! But I understand that spiritual concepts and experience can lead to confusion in some people. I've never personally experienced much of it just from listening - ideas on their own aren't very threatening to me. Experience is a different thing and can be deeply unsettling. In terms of dealing with the dangers of spiritual teachings, I'm happy and grateful to have people around me who have been part of i.e. the holotropic breathwork community. They are my guide as much as Leo is, and they help me balance some of Leo's bias. As for grievances, I've expressed my opinion on several topics in the past - the old relationship videos, the pick-up line of the forum, the repeated bashing of science and religion (which I'm sick and tired off) and other unnecessary repetition, the political commentary. Some videos on Leo's side-interests or newly developing interests just don't have the quality of his core spiritual and philosophical content. (On the other hand, from my area of expertise, I very much appreciate the quantum mechanics series! ) I've also recently expressed concern whether Leo has enough feedback from (or rather, shared investigation with) high-quality intellectuals in the social/politics domain, and I've been called insane Leo, this may be a false impression, but it often seems from your videos like you don't talk about your insights and your journey to anyone at all. I'm just always so happy to hear you mention being at a retreat and talking to the teacher, or similar. We may be all imaginary or all one (I don't know what I'm talking about here), but in the relative domain, people need to relate to people as close to their level as possible. I don't think the forum is enough feedback for you. If there was some distinction between content for newbies and content for long-time viewers in the future, I would appreciate it. Lastly, I'm organizing a students' personal development group at my faculty. I've struggled with my conscience on whether I can recommend actualized.org as a source of advice. So far I decided I can't. I'm not actually sure it would have a net positive effect on the students' lives if they started to dive into spirituality and psychedelics. It's a hard decision though, between authenticity and caution (coupled with fear).

This is a very relevant topic given the recent events. In the future I expect to see a video on suicide and this topic should be included. Because of the large audience, actualized will run into people with mental disorders and they can very easily make spiritual justifications for doing foolish things. If you want to use spiritual motivations to get these people to do something helpful, then I have a suggestion. I sought psychological help for spiritual reasons. The idea was that psycho therapy can dissolve unhealthy aspects of the ego, thus making me more effective at spirituality. It made me able to deal with intense episodes of depression, suicidal thoughts, and ego backlash. You should mention that ego does not want to admit when it needs psychological help, and this is selfishness. If you are interested in spirituality, but you are having destructive thoughts, then you should seek professional help to stop you from harming yourself or somebody else. In the long run you will be far more effective in spirituality, personal development, and emotional mastery if you address this psychological trauma.

Btw, thank you for reminding the suicide thread that his family is reading this and also later in the feedback thread for holding Leo to a standard. I couldn't agree more. The more I learn about communication, intuition and relating the more I realize that I am still a child in that area. And it feels good to explore that more deeply. Was your voice shunned? I haven't read from anybody saying something like that about your post of holding Leo to a higher standard.