Search the Community

After i've heard about the recent suicide incident from a member of this forum i wonder isn't Mahasamdhi a form of suicide? Leo in your Outrageous Experiment video you've talked about how tempting it was to accept the call for leaving your body. Isn't that a form of suicide like jumping off a bridge?

@Proserpina It is because his wife left consciously, so it is called mahasamadhi and suicide is done out of sorrow, basically a person being tired of life. Mahasamadhi will have less suffering than suicide as the person who is trying to do mahashamadhi has already prepared himself or herself mentally and the person will detach from the body. In case of suicide, the person acts out of grief or depression and kill himself/herself by hanging or cutting or something like that but the process will be painful and the person will suffer more. Sorry for my poor language but I think this topic is not that necessary to cover. As at the end the person who did suicide and the person who did mahasamadhi will be at the same side of the island.

@Leo Gura I’m worried that if you publicly talk about this unfortunate suicide incident on your channel then you could get a huge backlash. I mentioned my experience of writing an e book and someone coming after me saying that made them depressed. It sounds silly, but it was nearly a year of lawyers and small courts. you already have some haters and trolls who’ve made negative videos towards your teachings … but this story would be the bait for them, I don’t want to seem like I’m being over the top, I just think as your teachings get more radical and if you talk about this suicide incident openly, you risk even your channel itself. just thinking of you Leo and actualized as I believe you have done absolutely nothing wrong.

@Leo Gura Absolutely agree with this. We cannot all have the same opinions on everything and it would stunt growth if we all were just circlejerking each other. I don't like to argue. If I disagree with something or don't partake in it, it doesn't mean I put it in the garbage pile and know its bad/wrong. I have a section in my mind under question mark and these things I do not agree with might later be changed - or not. I love Leos work on self inquiry and I believe there should be tolerance and room for practicing spirituality without using psychedelics and still using this forum. That said, I am a user of -5meo-THC which is considered a mild psychedelic. Regarding Leo's teachings about death, from my understanding, put simply, he does not support or encourage suicide, because he talks about how this experience now, including the experience of having a body, is actually nothingness /death itself. So one would only want to get rid of the body to experience death if they believed they are not already dead. Leo's teachings are absolutely the opposite. If you do not identify with the body, why so eager to get rid of it? If you're already dead, why the need to experience "conscious death". Etc, etc.. When realising you're not your car, you wouldn't smash your car to bits, it is still a useful tool. It does, however, make it easier to let go of the car when it's time comes, which is a positive. The problem comes when the milk (truth) gets mixed with the poison of the egoic mind and create a story that appears to be true, because it looks like milk...

Fair point. Thanks for the feedback. I will take it under consideration. Being more accommodating to the female perspective is something I've been trying to do more of. It takes unwiring some old habits. That has many issues. If this forum continues for years, we will definitely have more suicidal people joining and there is always a possibility of someone following thru on it. There is no way I can prevent that. There are 40,000 suicides every year in the USA alone. If I am going to be personally held responsible for every suicide that someone who sees one of my videos commits, then basically there cannot be a forum, or a comment section, or videos. Holding me personally responsible for the suicide of a person I have never talked to is an absurd standard which you would never hold any serious professional to. And you would feel outraged if anyone held you to such standard. That is the nature of teaching and communication. I could make the same counter-argument to those who deny Love as Absolute. I could say, "You are just being dogmatic and one day you may change your mind." There are always going to be some things within a body of teaching which are core to the teaching we the teacher will refuse to compromise on. This is true of any teacher or teaching. If you go to a Zen master and say, "But what if the Buddha wasn't enlightened? What if you are deluded?" The Zen master will laugh at you and kick you out of his zendo. Because if you truly feel the Buddha wasn't enlightened, you have no business being in a Zen classroom. You should go do more productive thing. Endlessly arguing about spiritual topics is extremely counter-productive to spiritual work. Which is why we cannot have endless in-fighting and debate here. The problem is one of distraction. I want you doing the work, not arguing about Love. Love to me is absolutely fundamental to this work. If you believe I'm deluded, fine, but then why are you here? Go follow someone who isn't deluded according to your logic. I will not compromise on Love. You can torture me and I will still tell you that Love is Absolute Truth. If you think that's closedminded and delusional, well, I cannot help you. You actually misunderstand what openmindedness means in this case. That's fine. I'm happy to have discussions about political stuff and SD. I'm not concerned much about disagreements there. I'm more concerned about constant debates about core spiritual truths which do not progress a seek in any meaningful way. Do not debate Love. Go become conscious of it. Or don't. The reason for seeking to minimize debate is not for the sake my ego. The point is to create an environment in which people's reptilian brains are not constantly triggered into ideological battle. These ideological battles make spiritual work impossible. I don't like debate because it is extremely unproductive. And then we have to waste a lot of time moderating it.

@SoonHei committed a spiritual and physical suicide, he jumped in a leap of faith into infinity. Trouble is he left behind his finite family and all those who love him. This community can't be held solely accountable for the choice of a man, a free agent. But also, we need to take a look at the conditions that helped foster his worldview such that he would come to make this choice. We're interconnected here in terms of thought, outlook, worldview, and the content of actualized.org certainly fed profoundly into his worldview. In that light, I can definitely see how he came to his conclusion. I don't think in 1000 years that I, or most of us would jump. But I can definitely see his line of thought, and how some of the content and ideas around here might lead someone to think this way. We're not in some kind of crisis of being inside a suicide cult, but if we don't deeply address this issue, it will be doomed to repeat here and there. We can't just write it off as collateral damage, or as statistically inevitable. His actions were deeply intertwined with some lines of thought and perspectives floated here.

I think the actual criticisms are not with your teachings, but with your character and some see your videos as a reckless approach. You may think about this too strategically and focused on what it will do to the image of actualized rather than embody compassion and soft heartedness. There was a good case made that many perceive you as a guru rather than a scientist, because of the way you present your insights in videos, even though that might just be a consequence because of the intensitiy. What will happen if other suicide cases occur that could be linked to actualized, even if it is not really your fault, will you be able to defend it off with PR? Maybe you would not need to much when your personality speeks for yourself? I am not sure, I just enjoy the metaphysics and philosophy. To me you never seemed like guru material, but more like a buddy. However, I do believe keeping a certain higher quality of threads on this forum will help keep things calm and align the minds of those that produe noise or sort them out and it would make a calmer impression on outsiders.

I have been on this forum for only a few months and did not follow Soonhei so I've not commented though I am sorry for his family's loss. I did see some of his beliefs in a few posts that were copy/pasted on the Soonhei thread, and he did express his thoughts so well, I found myself in full agreement. But it would never have crossed my mind that he would interpret anything Leo teaches as a call to suicide. Actually the opposite is true. Leo is very life affirming in every video of his I have watched. He can be a little salty at times, (ahem) but his teaching does not point to committing suicide. At all. I wonder, and this is only to hopefully avoid someone else misinterpreting something Leo says, if there needs to be more explanation maybe at the beginning of each video re: spiritual work, as to the difference between speaking in relative terms and speaking in absolute terms and how important it is to understand that we often speak in relative terms because everything in our "lives" in this world is relative and it is hard to express the absolute in relative terms. Each of us needs to ponder before making life changing decisions whether we know the difference and how misunderstanding can lead to treacherous territory. Otherwise, I have no criticism of Leo's work and find his video's to be intelligent and compelling in a good way.

@Leo Gura Finding actualized . Org was a life changer for me, and it’s opened my mind up so much and I have learned so much from your videos. They are very educational for me, and many things I would never have even though about if it wasn’t for you doing all the work and bringing us this information. I’ve never interpreted any of the radical things you have said as suicide promotion, but then again if I were heavily involved with psychedelics then who knows. But from my current world view I haven’t. I’m not really involved so much with psychedelic side of things or this section of the forum, so I have no feedback on that, but clearly there are people who hang onto your every word. My grievances are more regarding the promotion of pickup and advice given to male members on the forum regarding relationships and women. Which some of the female members here have called you out on before. More loving and conscious advice could be promoted in this area. Whilst I don’t always agree with what you say regarding that area, I can separate that when I’m watching your videos and don’t hold any grudge, it’s more like having an annoying friend or brother who you clash with in some areas, but bond with in others, and in the end I don’t take it too seriously. I can just frown and then go about my day. People come here with nobody to look up to so they look to you for answers, and sometimes i think you need to be more aware of the type of things you say on the forum mostly. I think this is where most of the misunderstandings lie. The videos are different because you can be more clear and explain exactly what you mean. But things can be more easily twisted and become toxic when said in vain on the forum, when typed casually. People here can and do think that you hold all the answers, but really you are just a human and don’t know everything. This forum is basically my social media, but it’s easy to get caught up in it the way you get caught up in other social platforms. Definitely some people spend way too much time on here, myself included, and waste a lot of time theorising about stuff, we should commit to taking more breaks and not get so addicted and consumed by it. How about making the forum more private and not public for everyone to see? How about making your videos more private through the website so that only members can view certain ones? deciding which ones you want the whole world to view and which ones should be members only.

If there is no longer a preference, why not? If the time is right. Sadhguru's wife left behind a child. Why is one form of mahasamadhi more valid than another?

Here's where I stand. Your work has not only changed my life and helped actually turned my life around but also helped lay the ground work to not give in to suicide when I was at my most suicidal. I ran into your work after being in a hospital and it showed me the way out such that I now have had several enlightenment experiences, my relationships are better than ever, I've turned around many of the things that I've been traumatized by since I was kid including things like ADHD by providing resources and outlets and also community to find what I've been looking for my entire life. Your work has provided me a community such that I've met people in person that have helped me turn my life around 180 degrees. When I came across what you had to say about psychedelics in the early days I was on 5-7 different psych medications that were destroying my very cognition to the point where I couldn't function anymore. I was taking 2-4 hour naps everyday, barely able to stay awake, could barely drive, and at my lowest point in terms of sheer hopelessness and depression. I trusted what you had to say about psychedelics and that you recommended a slow gradual approach and also how they are not safe to mix with SSRI's, mood stabilizers, and such substances. I trusted you and I actually got off all my meds and abandoned the system was doing more damage so I could try this route in order to get to the root of my own suffering and deepest demons. Turns out, by and large, through extensive research (which you recommended), trial and error, a careful methodical approach, it did help me with just that. However, like you also said, they were no magic pill in that I still had to follow up and do the heavy lifting. You provided resources to teachers, some of whom have become some my own teachers personally. If it wasn't for you, I don't know if I would've found them. I imagine not though. In March of 2020 I had my first spontaneous powerful kensho/satori where it was clear that no experience is ever enlightenment. So I do disagree with you when it comes to that. However, I've also seen you say that you are simply a gateway for newbies. That's what you were for me. I've also met plenty of other teachers (I just had dinner with one) that I disagree with about things they deluded about and I think you know a lot more on when it comes to society, government, mind, etc. Teachers and people in this work disagree in one fashion or another and it's expressed in about as many ways as there have been people. So I don't hold hard feelings like that. I think people are probably going to get lead astray if they just sheepishly take what you have to say, hear it, have some experience (psychedelic or otherwise) and taint whatever experience they have and lay some conceptual layering over it which is comprised of their interpretations they have of what you say based on what they create in their mind. I may think you're incorrect but they're responsible for their end. So I don't feel it's fair for me to fault you on that. Although I disagree with you about awakening I do think your contributions on psychology, development, and so forth is solid enough and I think you are of great service. I can nit pick but it's just nit picking. I think if you wanted to turn this thing into a cult you could've EASILY done that a long time ago. I find a lot of people on here are gullible (I was one for sure) and I think it really does show something about you, a guy with your kind online social presence and influence, hasn't gotten into more serious shit. I think it's a testament that you actually are committed to what it is you say you are. I don't consider you my teacher. To be honest you never were for me. You were a guy very similar to me, as far as I could tell from videos, which is extremely limited (for all I know you could have children chained to a radiator in your basement - assuming people in Vegas have basements...) that showed me the way, the path to what it was I looking for my entire life but didn't know it. And I will always be thankful for that. Anybody that says your video promote suicide can talk to me and I'll tell them to go fuck themselves. Make of that what you will.

The one who has little power to unimagine it, is what is being imagined! All limitations are imagined, especially the limitation that makes it hard to unimagine. You won't even see the lawsuit coming on this one! What a genius way to pay my rent. Thanks for the idea. Statistically speaking though, there is a demographic of people that will be helped from debunking their suicide ideation, even if it's just one video. Even if it's not that interesting to you personally, I'm sure it will save lives over the years. Not necessarily members of the forum, but random suicidal people who stumble on your video by accident and end up not taking their lives thanks to it.

I don't think you've ever directly promoted suicide in any of your videos, but we have to admit that forum Leo is not the same as youtube Leo. You fell for fallacies that are very similar to what sent SoonHei off a bridge. Source: This idea that you can be so conscious that harming the body doesn't matter is exactly what SoonHei believed and what lead him to die. If this current situation pisses you off, why not jump off a bridge? I think a video debunking this idea would be great IMO. The problem isn't really whether or not you think we should do it or whether or not you would actually do it, but the idea of it being idealized in some sort of high-consciousness only thing. If you are really high consciousness then you have no problem with the present moment and no reason to kill your body.

Edited: After some deeper reflection, I am modifying my original post be more open and accommodating. This will be a master thread of sorts for dealing with the fallout of recent events, specifically focused on clarifying and discussing the nature of my work and Actualized.org as a whole. This community and my followers are going to go through a self-sorting. Whatever grievances you have with my teachings, express it here. If you believe my work has ever promoted suicide, you should leave this forum because you fundamentally misunderstand my work and we will not get along. If you have a problem with psychedelics, if you believe psychedelics are bad, wrong, dangerous, untruthful, and not genuine awakening, you should also leave this forum because we have a fundamental disagreement that I will not be arguing with you about. My work and research is deeply intertwined with psychedelics. If you don't like that, then simply find a community or teacher who does the classic path. In general, feel free to vent whatever grievances you have with me personally, or with my work. Whatever you don't like or disagree with. Lay all your cards out on the table so that we clear the air. This is necessary to create a non-toxic community going forward which is not constantly at war with itself. The general rule is this: don't waste your time and energy on things you do not align with. Think carefully whether this community aligns with your values, and if it doesn't, just let it go and move on to things that align with you.

Sunny was not a 1 in a million random person that misinterpreted teachings. He was a daily poster on the forum. There are only about 30-40 members that post daily. Sunny was in the inner circle of actualized. He had a dreamboard he learned about on actualized. He wrote actualized members names on his dreamboard. He came to the forum for guidance through his first psychedelic experiences. He sought guidance via actualized before he took his life. He trusted members here. It breaks my heart to see so many people try to rapidly distance themselves from him. For a community that often speaks about how there is no separate individuals and we are all inter-connected, it's ironic how fast 100% responsibility is pinned onto a separate individual. No introspection about how the actualized community discusses topics like death, illusions of self, life as a dream etc. Yet when someone takes their life, it gets real fast and a lot of distancing occurs. . . If the self, life and death is illusory, then there was no "Sunny", his suicide is illusory and he didn't leave any family behind. Yet this would not be a tenable position to hold. On the forum, there is a lot of conflation between personal and transpersonal realms and it can cause harm to individuals. Yet some benefit as well. And a lot of good can come out be mass distribution of nondual teachings. The world is filled with intense selfishness, conflict, violence and absurd conspiracy theories. Teachings like Spiral Dynamics, relativity, nonduality etc. can help. Yet I also think there are also some gaps and structural issues. Notice the tone of conversation after Sunny's death. Mostly skepticism if it was real, distancing and finger pointing. In a healthy community, there would be an open discussion. The leader would get together with moderators in-person or via zoom. They would introspect and brainstorm ways we could improve. Then ideas would be brought back to the larger community for feedback. Yet this isn't the way actualized is structured or Leo's skillset. He is much more a top-down leader that makes decisions and he isn't into in person social meetings and discussions. I've been a mod here several years and we've never had a single meeting to discuss forum issues. It's not Leo's jam. In an effort to create more human connection, I'm happy to skype/zoom with anyone regarding nonduality, mysticism, breathwork, psychedelics, personality constructs etc. Just send me a pm and we can set something up. I think person-to-person communication is important. Sorry @Loving Radiance, I hadn't checked my journal for a bit. I think you have a good introspective question. Yes, I think allowing space to question ones own beliefs / epistemic grounds is super important. Yet unfortunately this is rare. And not just rare in spiritual communities, it can also be rare in the sciences. Scientists are often very open-minded and introspective - yet only within their whirlpool of the scientific paradigm. A couple years ago, I went to a scientific presentation on epigenetics. The researcher described data which suggests fish can predict seasonal temperature variations and epigenetically alter the gene expression of their offspring to better prepare them. After the presentation, I spoke with the scientist about the mechanics of his work. I then asked "Couldn't we consider this a form of intelligence?". There was a long pause of contemplation. It was like noone had approached him from this angle before. He responded "I suppose it could be. . . ". We then had a conversation of 'what is intelligence'? I could tell this was outside of his paradigm grounding and it was nice to see him questioning his own framework of what intelligence is. I definitely gave lots of space and I even 'played dumb' at times as if I was processing it for the first time as well. If I came at him knowing-it-all and saying "You are contracted within a scientific paradigm of intelligence with a human bias. You cannot see the higher systemic forms of intelligence" - he would have shut down.

Is this a joke? These people are both clueless. They have no understanding of my work. This is the problem with this entire situation. Which is that clueless people will start to opine on things they have no understanding of because "it's a cult" and "I don't feel comfortable" and "It's all ego". Of course in truth both of these people are speaking of ego so deep they don't even know what ego is yet. So what will happen now is A LOT of profound misunderstanding and projection which causes people to completely get distracted from consciousness work and waking up. And that is precisely how devilry works -- out of ignorance and fear it mislabels true teachings as falsehood, while replacing the true teachings with ignorance. So this is how the game works. Be ware of that, it will be happening a lot. There is going to be a culling of this community. My teachings will polarize people, those of you guys who have a problem with my core teachings will have to leave this community and find yourself other communities, because I am not going to tolerate nonsense and projection here. Going forward I expect a very nuanced understanding from you of my teachings, and if I don't see that, you will be asked to leave. Nothing personal, but I have better things to do than argue with ignorance or trolls. I am not going to sit by and deal with people who have little comprehension of the things I teach and the warnings about this work that I have given out in the past. If you honestly believe that my work promotes suicide, you should make plans to exit this community because we will not be getting along and I have no interest in teaching such people. Those of you who understand that my work obviously has never promoted suicide, I appreciate your support. I should also note, those of you who disagree with my teachings about Love and God-realization will also be asked to leave. You have no business following my teachings. This thread is being closed, but I will be opening a new thread which will be a discussion about the nature of my teachings and you guys can vent whatever grievances you have with me or my teachings there. There you can also hand in your resignations if you are leaving the forum.

What happened here speaks to the depth of these teachings. I believe this is why someone like Peter Ralston considers himself a "facilitator" (specifically not a teacher) and is incredibly cheeky, and at times, totally ambiguous with his communications about the deepest truths. This is why someone like Shinzen Young is so strict about teaching about mindfulness and not the philosophical implications of what the practice reveals. I believe this is why Gurus, Zen masters, etc., have a reputation of intentionally holding back how much they're willing to share with their students. If the student is not ready the results of repeatedly hearing these types of teachings can be disastrous. Yet on the other hand, even if someone where not psychologically ready to hear, "life is a dream, you are God, you were never born, you'll never die, your entire self and life is imagination, etc." I do not think the results would be suicide or self harm. At worst, someone may be plunged into an existential depression and at best, it could be the shell shock they needed to hear to begin their spiritual journey. For those with genuine mental illness, it doesn't really matter what the trigger is. It could be radical non-dual teachings, or it could be utterly self-derived delusional thinking. I do think there is inherent risk with the way Actualized.org has so successfully marketed itself across the internet, and the unintentional consequences that could result from these utterly radical ideas becoming so mainstream. However, I think there is a deeper risk with these teachings not becoming mainstream. Humanity is at an inflection point with our level of technological power; we are so severely lacking in a mature, compassionate, wise level of self-understanding. While these teachings may be utterly radical, and anti-thetical to the modern world's way of thinking, and therefore poses a certain level of risk, they are honest and authentic to one's direct experience of who and what they are. This type of radical self honesty is what the world is going to need if we are going to effectively face the growing number of existential threats on the horizon (increases in extreme weather events, rising sea levels, pollution of the oceans, world wide mass extinction, destruction of the rain forests, artificial intelligence, job loss as a result of artificial intelligence, gene editing, 3d printing, surveillance capitalism, virtual reality...) In essence, it seems that what Actualized.org has done with advanced spiritual teachings may not be ideal for the individual in every case, but given the need of these models and ideas for the collective development of the world, it seems the collective impact of Leo's work outweigh's the inherent risk for any given individual. That's my view. As is explicitly specified in the forum guidelines, this work is not for those with mental illness. Sometimes mental illness does not present itself as depression, but can at times present itself as delusional thoughts and feelings of connection and bliss. There are many flavors and forms of mental illness. It would be unreasonable to expect that moderators or Leo to have the capacity to monitor for this type of stuff. We are a community that exchanges ideas and communications, not a professional mental health service. Of course if the signs present themselves it is paramount that we take the necessary steps to help the individual. I think this applies for all of us, not simply mods. But again, mental health services is not the function, nor was ever the intention, of this forum. It was truly a tragedy with what happened with SoonHie. It's affected me more deeply than I thought it would. I have no words for his family and loved ones other than I'm sorry for what has happened, and I'm sorry you have to continue without him. There are no words that can fill that void. May his soul rest easy and may you all feel and heal deeply. With love.

I have experienced a lot of suicidal ideation, but my integrity is staked on: The #1 rule of this work: I will not harm the physical body. I'll take good care of it, give it adequate rest, feed it well and good, and see a doctor when needed. This teaching stood out to me in recent Actualized video, it's explicit so it's inescapable. No matter what the content of the game, the structure is such that you must live your full life and fulfill your Life Purpose. So no suicide allowed! 800-273-8255 https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ https://www.sprc.org/ https://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/InjuryandViolencePrevention/SuicidePrevention

Is it foolish for Christianity to be around and have caused (according to your reasoning) the suicide of tens of thousands of people, along with perhaps wars and cleansing in the millions. Same could be said of Buddhism in which there are wars fought from people who hold some of the more esoteric beliefs of the religion. Same goes for the Koran and I'm sure many faiths and scriptures people fight over or are motivated by and sculpt their supposed character. Or how about main stream idea's that the world is a unsafe place, or atheists who hold hard line emotional beliefs that the world is a cruel cruel place and do so with "facts" and "data" and spread this and down the road there is all these depressed people or suicidal people. Leo ain't perfect, nor is it even possible, I'm not even sure we would get that much along in real life, although I'm sure we could shoot the shit and have a good meal and be respectful to one another (who knows maybe we could), but I respect him for some of his teachings and for being honest about who he is and not really trying to be anything other for the most part. I get that this was a horrible thing and its easy to point a finger of blame on someone. I'm also pretty sure Leo's gonna be a little more mindful with words and this event will shape him differently, but to hold him "responsible" or say things like this was bound to happen is on you man....

Why does morality have to be objective? Can't something simply be foolish? Why does it have to be ultimately so? Your complaints seem to come from fear + trying to be a good person -- think of its potential consequences. People sometimes commit suicide, and it isn't glorified here.

These religions actually tell you that if you commit suicide you go to hell. But those that do say committing Jihad grants you heaven actually do lead to people interpreting that as an invitation to blowing themselves up together with others.

People who commit suicide to attain enlightenment or escape suffering will never realise that it doesn’t work, because there is no experience after death, so you can’t experience the goal that you wanted. The person who kills himself to escape suffering will not experience peace after he dies, because there is no ‘him’ anymore. He doesn’t experience ‘the end of suffering’, so his suffering doesn’t really end.

I want to clarity for people who might be reading this anew that measures will be taken to further minimize misunderstanding of the teachings and make things extra clear regarding suicide and other potential dangers and how to avoid them. So don't get the idea that nothing is being done or no feedback is being listened to. Making the teachings safer and clearer is something I hold as important. But you also need to understand that they will never be fool-proof and people will ignore warnings even when they are given. The kind of people who are most susceptible to misusing the teachings are precisely those who will tend to skip over warnings.

Just send them to the suicide subreddit. Sometimes people in that condition will not go to see a professional, and the Samaritans etc you know are BSing you with a script. Do you know who was one of the most successful suicide hotline workers of all time. No joke... Ted Bundy. Lmao. People aren't stupid. They don't want to know someone is just saying empty words that aren't actually true because the script tells them to. Sometimes online communities like on Reddit are more accessible to people in trouble.

What would you propose? People sometimes commit suicide. This community is as far from pro-suicide as it can get.