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While I agree with everything in this post....its too rational. When you deal with people attached to emotion...rationality rarely works. The main cause of depression is self-denial and self-hate. The self-esteem (respect for self) has reached zero. Suicidal people are the most dangerous people around because if you have no respect for your own life, then you have no respect for any other life. Not saying you will harm others if you are suicidal, but you won't really care if you do. The interesting thing about suicidal thoughts and feelings is like anything else it is a STATE. There are many people who have attempted suicide and survived who regretted it, were glad they survived, and are living happy productive lives. It is just a momentary state through which people take action. Suicide is a result of delusion, but like all delusions it feels real and thus logic alone won't snap them out. You first have to reach them emotionally, before logic will make sense to them.
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I think suicide is the result of deeply misunderstanding reality. People who are suicidal are completely identified with illusions, which makes them suffer. They deeply underestimate realitys capacity for joy, happiness, love, fulfillment. They think they figured it out, reality ist just unfair, etc. While in truth, reality is deeply loving. If I would get suicidal one day, to the point of killing myself, why wouldn't I just try something new out? Instead of killing myself, give up my current job and all my posessions and move to india to become a monk for example? Why not just try something new? You can always kill yourself later, istn't it? Or instead of killing yourself, you could try out some psychedelics like 5-Meo and go on a journey to discover absolute reality, why not just give it a try? You can always kill yourself later... OR you could go out clubbing to learn socialization and dating, I mean - you have nothing to lose, haven't you already given up your life? Why not give it a try? Or you could try seriously helping other people, for example go to africa and help build the infrastructure there, do the work that is needed etc. Or you could get a dog, get a cat, go to a therapist, etc, etc, etc. Reality has infinite potential for happiness. Even for the most depressed of its members. To depressed people their depression seems to be uncurable. But have you really tried to cure it? What have you changed about the way you live? Have you tried all the examples I mentioned above? Have you tried dancing freely, have you tried adopting a child in need of someone who cares, have you tried starting a new hobbie, have you tried learning a new language together with other people, have you tried visiting a self help group for suicidal people, what have you tried? It isn't much, is it? If you're going to kill yourself anyways, at least try the things I mentioned above before you do it. You have nothing to lose, you can always kill yourself afterwards.
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It is never easy to understand why someone attempts suicide, and the reasons are varied and complex. Often suicide involves emotional or physical pain that someone finds to be unbearable and leaves them feeling as if there is no escape. Hopelessness. People sometimes reach a point where they feel there is no hope and no way to change that feeling. When they are hopeless, they may realize the good things in their life, making suicide a viable option to escape. Traumatic Stress. Traumatic experiences such as sexual abuse, physical abuse, assault, or war trauma can put someone at greater risk for suicide, even a great time after the event takes place. What do you think of suicide? Do you think it's a sin ? Is it really the only way out after one has become fed up with existence? Where do you think the person who killed himself go? What awaits him on the other side ?
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@Yarco There is a wider context to this, the UK has a long history of racism and violence stemming from that racism, both from normal people and police. There gave been many cases in the past where black people have been murdered for being black. Also been ostracised from society or just generally harassed, attacked etc especially in regard to football, as in it would be normal for football fans to attack any black person they see. Today it has improved a lot but I think Britain sees itself as a country that tackles racism and as such, you could argue that they may overreact to an incident like this but its almost like they're making an example out of the guy. It may look harsh and may even be harsh but within the context any acceptance of this where you let this kind of thing fester can have real world consequences. The other point with the politicians, in the UK there has definitely been one if not two politicians murdered in the last couple of years by people that have tweeted hateful comments at them. This is a fine line because there has to be criticism of public figures but I think there's a line between that and actual hate speech that could lead to something worse. There's also the factor of really affecting someone and being a cause fir them commiting suicide, which has also happened. I get what you're saying in that you should be free to say what you want, but these a directed comments that the recipients see. If you're talking to your friends you can say whatever, but if you're directing comments like 'hope you die bitch' to the actual person that would be the equivalent of calling them and saying it, or leaving notes at their house or in public places, potentially even worse as the whole world can see them forever. Also UKs not that bad, I've lived here all my life and never paid a TV 'loicense' (we don't talk like that ?)
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I think you are totally right on that one. We are being so attached to the depressed state/depressed perspective that we can't let it go. If we wouldn't care, we would let it go, but we are caring so much about staying in the depressed state, that we build a whole persona and story around it so it can become stronger. Thats how powerful attachments are, being obsessively attached to something can literally destroy your life. Thats why practicing detachment and letting go of things consciously is a very powerful technique. Its very interesting, that sometimes the ego would rather lead itself to suicide, compared to letting the negative identity go, and letting go of negative attachments.
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Sometimes I feel like when depressed, it is not that we don't care, but that we care so much that we are unwilling to drop the seriousness obsession with how much we care; so much that that is what we focus on the entire day non-stop constantly with extreme work ethic, focus, and diligence on our dire mental health. It is what we see all day. We care so much that we are willing to try anything to make things better, even if that means turning to drugs, turning to wild sex with random people, turning to speeding, turning to stealing, turning to hitting, turning to yelling and calling people names, willing to stay up all night. We care so much we contemplate suicide because that is just another thing we could try, another state of mind to play with to see if that will make things better; if we tell ourselves that this is the worst, this is the bottom of the barrel, if this, a way like procrastination or a way of having no plan B, that maybe this will get some sort of idea, reconciliation to pop into our head, something to make things better. We care so much about feeling better that we are willing to quit school, quit our jobs, play video games all day, go for our passions, make music, write books, chase after the dream partner, etc. because we want to see if that will work. ... I guess I need to explore some more on the not caring.
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One of the main reason why, you can't think anything else just about suicide, because you are stuck in a negative depressed paradigm. Your paradigm is valid, we don't dismiss how bad you are feeling right now. But remember, just as others said it is just one paradigm from the many. You see no way out, because you think from your current paradigm. You can absolutely shift and change your paradigm, that way you can start to see other possibilities that you can use to feel better. Right now you need to be a little bit selfish, concentrate on yourself, give love to yourself, and only then you have a greater possibility to change situations in the world. If you really struggle and you really think that you can't do it alone, search for help. There is nothing wrong to search for some professional help. If you can't afford or if you really don't want to go to a psychologist or a psychiatrist, you can call a suicide hotline.
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Hardkill replied to Tudo's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
I really don't think that gurus like Leo are saying that you are actually in some kind of simulated reality or virtual reality world like how they have portrayed it in The Matrix movie series or in any kind of sci-fi shows/movies. I hope you understand that because no one in their right mind would want anyone including yourself to commit suicide or hurt yourself in anything. Leo talk about this in his vid "The Dangers Of Misapplying Spiritual Teachings." Though I will say that what you are asking is a valid question and has been something that I've always thought about for a long time and I still haven't fully comprehend it to this day. However, think from what I understand about the idea of you being in a "dream" is that you're not actually in a dream, but you always start out with a low level of perceiving reality in your awakened state. However, the more you work on developing your level of consciousness and enlightenment then the greater your perception of true reality will become. Yet, if you are dead then you may not be in a "dream" anymore, but you also will not be able to perceive ANY reality AT ALL to ANY DEGREE, not even a shred of it. If you are in coma or in some state of unconsciousness then you really will be stuck in a literal perpetual dream state. -
The only way out i can think of is suicide
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axiom replied to Baotrader's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
For siloed consciousness (i.e. you as a human), physical pain happens whenever you push closer to the boundary of self. Pain lets you know where those boundaries are. For example, in the movie The Truman Show, Truman's emotional pain massively increased the closer he got to escaping the dome. A hand held over a flame for long enough will be maximally painful because pretty quickly it will no longer be a hand, and eventually it will burn away into nothing at all. Physical pain is only troubling to the individual, and only as long as the individual believes itself to be there. From a higher consciousness, physical pain is on the same ontological level as a chair, a table, an oak tree, or a cloud passing in the sky. It is possible to observe pain from the outside, and react to it as you might react to a cloud passing in the sky. It is within everyone's grasp to experience this phenomenon directly with strong-determination-sitting meditation (SDS). Actually, SDS can completely recalibrate your sense of what it means to suffer by enormously increasing your emotional and physical pain tolerance. In so doing, if kept up, then eventually (and inevitably) it leads to total bliss, total love, total compassion. Suicide is pointless. You'll just find yourself somewhere else, and you'll have to deal with all of this again (and again, and again). No fear, enlightenment eventually comes to everyone. EDIT: Just realised this thread goes back to 2018... -
Thursday 24/03/2022 06:45 My desire is too strong that I cannot kill myself. But the stronger my desire for sex, the more painful my experience. The more I consider suicide the more I suffer, bringing up the pain of unrequited desire. Considering suicide is also painful because of the feelings of shame that inevitably come from it. I'm royally fucked either way, in all ways but literal. This suicidality is similar to but not identical to September. I had to painfully see back then that 'I don't really want to die'. The way I'm feeling now is more similar to January, more specifically. "I don't really want to die" experientially translates to "my desire is extremely strong (and it clings to life)". Choice however does not dwell in the feeling. There appear to be two choices here. One, kill yourself. Two, suffer with the desire painfully, for who knows how long and for how often. I am familiar enough with this painful desire that I may have the capacity to not be swayed and move ahead with what's logical. I know that if I lack such a capacity though I'll hate myself again. I won't be swayed by fear of re-incarnation either. What I'm addicted to is this juice of being helpless and ruminating —— I'm quite squeamish at the sight of blood and I'm scared of doing something to my body that will cause damage should I fail. I'm trapped with nothing I can do. Why wasn't I given the right to end my life? And what's this feeling? I can swallow sodium nitrite just fine and that process will be painless, but its my feelings which are the issue. Many times before, something like this shame has cropped up. It kills my horniness in an abrupt way. I can be "conscious" of something, as far as that word can mean anything, but that doesn't mean I'm given a morsel of control or reduction in suffering. I feel conscious of some feeling relating to death, shame and decay which is wretched and terrible, like a bouquet of dead flowers. How evil a thing there is! It could be described as like a negative libido in inception.
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WelcometoReality replied to Preety_India's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
I think it's great that your willing to see these flaws and take action toward healing. Shaming is more negativity which creates a neverending loop or in the worst cases it ends in self hatred and suicide. Letting go of these feelings will instead create a neverending loop of positivity into love and self transcendence. -
Almost no mental illnesses are terminal. Terminal doesn't just mean life-long. The only mental illnesses that are terminal I can think of are Dementia / Alzheimers and severe depression (the latter assuming suicide is pretty much inevitable.) If you're defining a terminal mental illness as just one you've got for life, that's most of them. Schizophrenia, autism, anxiety. Depends on the severity of it I guess. I guess technically I'm already probably living with multiple terminal mental illnesses according to this definition, but not bad enough that I want to bother seeking help. I guess the first steps would be therapy and medication.
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Preety_India replied to Preety_India's topic in Society, Politics, Government, Environment, Current Events
You don't judge them. But Indian society does. In fact a rape victim is sometimes encouraged to commit suicide Because in the Indian mindset a woman with no husband has no identity. A woman violated is better off dead. A son who doesn't earn the salary of a doctor is a worthless person and a failure in the eyes of the parents. A single mother is a brainless slut who gave her virginity to the wrong man and deserves lovelessness and loneliness and every bit of suffering coming to her. Any person in Our society who doesn't satisfy expectations that are set ridiculously high are to be shamed and judged and abandoned into anonymity and should deserve nothing but disdain, contempt and suffering. How will you feel in such a society? That's why the suicides Half of the suicides don't get reported. -
The picture is a call for help. Distancing is likely to worsen the condition. Suicide often but certainly not exclusively, comes from loneliness. So i'd personally want to do my best to get them help but also tell them they can't send pictures of that anymore, they can't do that to themselves anymore, as its horrific and they REALLY NEED HELP RIGHT NOW. I'd go and find a few specialists or counselors, get a few numbers and even make a call myself telling a professional about the picture I was just sent. Maybe even the police if it was advised. If you want to be with them through the process that's a different thing, it sounds like you are not comfortable with that, and so you've got to respect yourself too. Your boundaries, what you will and won't do. I once had a friend with Asperger's, some aspects of that friendship I loved but I had to set strict limits on how much time I would spend with them, as they tended to draw me in to their life more than I wanted. Its about finding a balance, but definitely make a couple of calls and tell someone about that photo.
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StudentX replied to Someone here's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
Death is not an experience, because death is the dis-identification with a particular form, i.e. with thought. That's why ego-death is death and not at all "flimsy". It's literally death, not some sort of second-order kind of death, it is the death. There is absolutely no need for suicide, or for harming the body in any way whatsoever; this would presuppose that you are the body, which is false. Do NOT harm the body. To truly die means to understand that you were never alive. -
To me it seems that the only way to know what death is or what comes after death is by actually dying. You can't know it unless you experience it .is that correct ? Can you become conscious of what death is without needing to commit suicide ? P.S I'm talking actual physical death not some flimsy ego death or whatnot .
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LastThursday replied to Someone here's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
@Someone here practically, the suicide rate is very low something like 0.01%. It can't be used as a good argument for happiness and truth being anything to do with living. But you are right, happiness is not one-dimensional and neither is truth, they have many sources and qualities. How can you judge if one type of happiness is equal or better than one type of truth and that those things are essential for living? -
Someone here replied to Someone here's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
@LastThursday think about a person who commits suicide. He doesn't know what's true anymore and completely lost in confusion and he is not happy either obviously. If you are still alive right now then it means you either have some source of happiness in your life(no matter how trivial it might be ) or you know some satisfying truths. -
context we are not super close. but i do talk with him from time to time. we sometimes have some enjoyable conversations, but his mental state is off the rails. three weeks ago he attempted suicide. then the other day he called me when he was in the middle of a crisis. and two days ago, he simply sent me, out of nowhere, a picture of his wrists covered in blood. he had cut himself. he said he had a relapse because of his ex. i was in shock. i only send him something like: "i'm not the right person to help you in this moment. you need specialized help asap." this made me realize that i have to distance myself from him -- for my own mental health. my plan i thought about distancing myself in a gradual way. but especially after that picture he sent, he crossed a line that i don't think i should tolerate. so basically he's a person that i don't want to have any contact in my life anymore. so maybe it'd be better to send him a text explaining respectfully -- yet firmly -- why i decided to distance myself from him. and if he insists on interacting with me, i might take more serious measures (e.g., blocking). any thoughts? thanks!
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"Like you said, everything has its shadow side, and the shadow in you is what makes you hate it. If you enjoy hating the system, I don't want to stop you from doing that. It can be fun. If you feel like it's costing you a lot of energy, and you'd rather have peace of mind, you can integrate the shadow. Which is the process of finding and recognizing everything you hate "out there", somewhere in yourself, and then loving that" One of the members posted this and I thought it was pretty good and wanted to think about it some more. What is stuff that I have hated "out there"? People's confidence, brains, looks, arrogance, aggression, insults. Do I have that too? Sometimes I have confidence, sometimes brain, sometimes looks, sometimes arrogant, sometimes aggressive, sometimes insulting. I can be all of these things too. Sometimes it is the context of how we compare this to that where that looks bad to us but yet we don't have the mirror to maybe see that we do it too. Maybe we have not yet fully processed it. I can feel intimidated by those that have more looks, money, skills, info, etc. It feels like, oh they will dominate over me, I cannot compete. But we will never be the best at anything. There will tend to be stuff that is worse than us and stuff that is better than us. All of the things that I mentioned are temporary. Looks, money, skills, etc. - they all come and go. Seeing the futility in stuff coming and going can be helpful. .... The second group meeting that I attended seemed a bit somber. People shared stories of rape, child loss, fentanyl overdose epidemics, sexual abuse, etc. I look at my life and go wow. I have not had that. One woman said that fentanyl overdose is the leading cause of death on the west coast for people ages 18-49. She said she used to focus on suicide prevention but fentanyl overdose has exceeded that - people are taking it and don't realize that they are overdosing. I was thinking that the more we interact with, the more we read, the more variety of people we talk to, the more we may step into the world of sad, traumatic things. Spirituality has really helped me to try to be very complex with how I see things. ... I think I was not liking the woman's smile in the meeting. I don't know why. Not many others were smiling. Again I smile too. Sometimes I smile when it is totally unnecessary or inappropriate but that is what I am doing. It is really weird how we decide, oh I do not like this or that. Again, the feeling of feeling lower than others where when one is smiling, they seem strong. We are all going to die though. ... "When you write, you light a bonfire in the spirit world. It is dark there. Lost souls wander alone. Your inner flame flares up. And the lost souls gather near your light and heat. And they see the next artist at work and go there. And they follow the fires until they find their ways home." - Luis Alberto Urrea ... The feeling of insecurity, of not being good enough, of comparing ourselves to others - maybe the stuff we see in others we like about them? We say wow that is their superpower and we admire it? ABSOLUTE SECURITY IS FUTILE. We are not in control of everything and so insecurity will kinda ALWAYS happen. We see someone better and feel insecure and think DEATH. But yet we won't necessarily die. We say, we are weaker than them - look they are stronger and they can outlast me see - look they are better because of XYZ. Well, I am better because of ABC too so it is not apples and apples. .. Regarding fixing things so that we don't make the same mistake next time, umm.. (or switching it out rather than suppressing it) -Choosing to listen rather than suppressing listening. Choosing to see potential rather than suppressing negative thoughts. When something seems useless, we may quit listening and it could be during those times that it would have been useful but yet we quit. chit chat can be helpful for some but a waste of time for the entire group https://cogbtherapy.com/introduction-to-cbt
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PataFoiFoi replied to PataFoiFoi's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
@Leo Gura i understand what you are saying. But the thing is we are the cost for God experiencing this all encompassing love. Just be real with me would you Leo be a crippled human that lives as a slave in poverty and only experienced war and torture to only get butchered by a tyrant at the end if his life time and still call it Love? If it were so then anything that is happening has to be love even people commiting suicide from this forum. You can correct me if im missing any building blocks here. -
SgtPepper replied to PataFoiFoi's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
I have a more nuance approach personally. I do not think war, genocide, torture, or suicide is God's love. It exists because of God's love. but evil is born from the imagination forgetting or even intentionally denying itself. And in one sense suffering, kills your ego and helps you remember. -
One of the things I am thinking about is - when we do stuff, do we do it to get away from other stuff or do we do it because we are choosing to do it, or both? Like okay every pick will be at the opportunity cost of everything else. There could at every moment be a number one thing that we want to be doing in that exact moment but that may not necessarily be what we are doing. One of the things I started thinking about when it comes to negative thoughts is that it is not that they are not necessarily bad. Negative thoughts can identify problems, walls, confusion, questions, etc. and we can use that to create curiosity, growth, change, identify potential, etc. They can also be used for anxiety, depression, hopelessness, suicide, etc. too. Thoughts that disapprove of things will happen all the time and how we choose to use those thoughts can make a mile of a difference. We can find good and bad things in everything and people will have varying degrees of how good they are at this and it will also be based on how much they notice, are aware of, etc.
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I cant understand how to see Love in these things. Why would our higher Self create a human world full of tragedies and still call this love? I bet every spiritual guru wouldnt call these things loveable if they really would experience torture, war, genocide or suicide. Some Gurus might have trained to control Pain and their Emotions but these guys are just a minor exception. God just has to be a masochist and doesnt give a fuck what each human or being feels or experiences.
