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@krockerman You’re writing of nonduality with “logic”, and you don’t realize you’re doing it.

@assx95 Nonduality, implying “not two”. So, is there a ‘you’ working toward ‘something’? Is there a ‘you’ which ‘took on ideologies’? Aren’t they as they appear - your own ? How could an ‘us’ experience not two? Ultimately, who’s belief is this climbing up stairs concept?

We're getting into deep philosophical territory here, but in the grand scheme of things there is no inside or outside, deities are part of your existence, whether you acknowledge them or not. In drawings about yoga and tantra, they are usually depicted as living inside you, with each one responsible for a different energy centre, like a gatekeeper. At each centre, you must overcome the challenges given to you and satisfy the gatekeeper deity, that you are ready to move on to the next challlenge. The highest gate is at Sahasrara, which is guarded by Shiva, if I recall. It is at this point that Shakti can finally reunite with Shiva and nonduality is achieved. There is of course only the Self, which you may call God, but it has many aspects. You are one of those Aspects, but your separation from all the others, including deities, is entirely illusory.

Your comment is thoughtful. Sometimes I feel that people use the word "God" (with it's capital G) to mean "revere this thing" and I wonder if it hearkens back to a Christian upbringing in some cases even if they are using it in a Christian context. -Although in some Hinduism it is invoked. I have heard some people say Yogananda sort of package his teachinsg to appeal to a Christain raised audience. For instance: "The kingdom of God" is used. Here he says "his presence", "his" is invoked You can read some of these statements and somebody with a Christian might relate to it. Then there is the is other idea out there "you are God". I have another thread on this Interestingly nobody replied to it. If "you are God" is that different from saying "you are a person" ? Are people "God" ? But you don't hear that. Are dogs God ? Is an empty box of Cheerios God? Is everything God or only living things? If "God" is a word meaning everything then why would somebody say "you are God"? People don't say "you are everything" because it is assumed yes, pick anything you want and it's part of "everything" So why the term "God" I believe the intent is "revere this thing". Interesting I make a thread "You are God" and I also put in an interesting second post later of the sayings of Swami Vivekananda. Nobody replies. Yet when atheism is brought up some people come in and reply offended by the idea What about "the All" ? what about "oneness" ? what about nonduality? isn't this all "God" ? I would say the word "God" does not have to used to express that. When you are in a Western country "God" has a strong connotation of Judeo-Christianity even if untended. What about saying "you are everything" or "we are part of a universal consciousness" "be one with everything" "energy" etc ? - because agreeing with that is not so easy to determine. People acknowledge that if they are on a football team that are part of team, by extension we are part of the universe. Even an atheist could acknowledge parts and sum of parts. However when the word "God" is invoked there is an expectation, say "God" back or you are not part of the team, and I am expected to write it with a capital "G" Reverence for a word. Is doing that really nondual? Of course "nondualism" is another concept, another word. But it doesn't have the same sense of authority, that humble yourself quality

I understand lol. I didn't have tolerance from a recent trip. But in general, I need higher doses for similar effect compared to most people. Both my 5-MeO trips have looked like exorcisms to the observer. It just tends to hit me hard, even when plugged. But that was 18 months ago. I might want to test the waters again. LSD was much smoother. The bilateral symmetry tends to suggest that I was energetically and Nonduality-wise open, but no exorcism.

Last night I had an intense solo tripping experience. The idea was to do a medium dose of LSD on an empty stomach, in absolute darkness. Dose: 500ug on a 24 hour fast Setting: At night, complete darkness + sleeping mask Intent: Forgiveness and letting go Understand emotional mastery Explore how I can live more consciously Trip Experience: Initial Paranoia: After about 30 minutes, I started experiencing mild effects and an initial paranoia set in, along with an intense desire to eat something (I didn't do it since it tends to blunt the intensity of the trip). Forgiving and letting-go exercise: I worked through the "How to forgive someone who hurt you" exercise and working on the meditation. I noticed how my heart is still not open and how much resistance I have to feel emotions. This is a significant sticking point for me. After the exercise, I contemplated for a while. Soon after that, the peak of the trip hit. Bilateral Symmetry: This is a common theme for me. As soon as I surrender and let go, my body naturally starts doing the bilateral symmetry yoga (which Martin Ball describes). I even tried to stay centered and contemplate further, but the body wanted to open up and move. During this, I can observe when the ego/self-talk comes in since an abrupt break in symmetry accompanies that. When the body is moving fluidly, "I" am entirely gone. It's as if the body is working through some residue energy. There was also some shaking and some vibrating. The Bee: I started working on letting go and surrendering my fears. Right then, a small bee came buzzing in and sat right next to me. This was annoying since I used to be afraid of bees as a child. What are the chances that a bee would come in and land in front of me at a time when I'm working on surrendering my fears (I haven't seen a bee in months)? This has to be the Universe testing me. I sat there, observing my impulse to swat that bee or go somewhere else, but I just sat there, letting go. I realized that all my insights are useless unless I can put them to use. The Buddhabrot: During the bilateral symmetry, a track started playing on YouTube, which had the thumbnail of the Buddhabrot from the movie "Inner Worlds, Outer Worlds". I saw it, and it hit me hard. I was looking at Absolute Infinity! Contained in this picture are infinite patterns, all of which exist all at once. An observer can, however, focus on a specific pattern and create a narrative by changing his/her focus over time. But all of it exists simultaneously, at once. I stared at this fractal for an hour, during which, I saw two hands moving in bilateral symmetry, I saw a jester laughing, I saw a dragon guarding a treasure. I saw the light and shadow creating a play of good and evil. I saw a Goddess, I saw the Buddha figure, and I eventually saw two eyes staring back at me in the middle of the image. I realized I was literally looking at God! I stared at those two eyes as an entire universe sprawled out of nowhere and then vanished back into the infinite fractal. I was moved beyond words. When I see this figure now, I'm hardly able to see anything, but I will look at it again when I trip. Purging: One consequence of my energetic opening was my body wanting to throw up and purge. I had nothing in my system, but that didn't stop my body from feeling nauseous and wanting to throw up. This correlated well with my emotional state of wanting to let go of my past blockages and old narratives. One big realization is that I am normally heavily detached from my body and am energetically quite closed. Meditation + more Bilateral symmetry: I meditated for a bit, and then the body wanted to move again. Eventually, it grew tired, and I went back to just contemplating. Lessons: With each trip, I understand how little I embody these insights in day to day life. Breath: After the purging, I can see that my breath is deeper, and I can see the energy move in and out of my gut better. For me, my degree of consciousness and embodiment is directly proportional to how deeply and openly I breathe. I understand Absolute Infinity in a much deeper way than I used to. 36-hour Fast was an excellent choice for this trip because it made it more potent. I will continue to do that in the future. Complete darkness also helped the trip, and I will continue tripping at night. Further: More fasting + Tripping I still cannot come to grips with the duality between God and Myself. I understand how I create my reality, but I'd be lying if I say that I understand God fully. Work on embodiment 5-MeO-DMT: It's been 18 months since I smoked 5-MeO. I still don't feel like I'm ready to take the plunge (or should I say the plug) yet. I need to work through some more stuff before I'm able to.

Ever loose yourself while having sex? And I mean really, really loose yourself? To the point where you're not able to tell who's doing who or what? ? it all just becomes a wave. A dance. Like everything else; this too can be magical and beautiful, or it can be straight on terrifying. ? Can't the man just enjoy some regular sex, for the Love of God?! ? How are things going for ya? Is sex still...sex?

Definitely don’t try to “get rid of” anyone or anything. That’s a narrative of resistance, because there’s no truth in it. Also, there are millions of people being authentic who have never even heard of nonduality. That’s another narrative. No. There is no situation, no occurrence, in which you are not in control. “IT”S JUST A STORY!!!”

Notice that as Roger Castillo has pointed out, the statement "you are not your body" is useful but it's only a certain level of spiritual teaching, and that there needs to be a step beyond that into full nonduality. That's easy to explain in relation absolute Truth being everything. So to say not about anything is a duality teaching. The truth is that we are the body, but not ONLY the body. We are everything. That's what absolute Truth means.

The absolute Truth Leo explained is very useful for spirituality. Because the ego only experiences dualistic truth including relative and subjective truths. And we can start with the concept of absolute Truth as everything. That's just a thought, a concept, yet it points to the absolute Truth and that is useful for spiritual realization of absolute Truth as nonduality. And what I will experiment with is if ego tensions can be dissolved along with a realization of absolute Truth. The ego's limitation of only experiencing dualistic truth is a false perspective and leads to inner and outer conflicts and keeps the ego tensions including the body armor and the pain body in place. Realization and actualization of absolute Truth will I predict dissolve the ego tensions.

One important consequence of the Wolfram model is that if it's true, then we don't have free will. I have noticed how in philosophy there is a lot of discussion about the need for free will related to moral responsibility. But I think it's very simple. Nonduality teacher Roger Castillo used an example of someone having been caught committing a crime, and the person claims that it was done without free will, and then the Judge replies: I understand that, and me sentencing you to prison is also done without free will. Haha, so that completely eliminates the question about moral responsibility in my opinion. And no free will in Wolfram's sense is still a form of free will in the sense that we actually have to perform our actions including personal choices and willpower as a part of the whole universe. Computational irreducibility means that we cannot "cheat" and jump ahead into the future. Regarding math, I have heard Stephen Wolfram mentioning that the math used today is very much a result of history and culture. It's just a slice out of all possible math. The example of "2 + 2 = 4" I gave was meant as a platonic form, something that timelessly exists. For example the notion "2" is just a label. In binary form the same expression is 10 + 10 = 100. So what I mean is that even without math, the truth of 2+2 = 4 still exists according to how I see it.

I have never heard of It's not upsetting. offensive and wrong is more apropos. Love is a feeling. It is not an idea where you can take the human out. That is dehumanization. Love is something a living being feels not an intellectual concept. You are giving me a relative scenario, picking a beautiful forest as an example and not a back alley of dog shit, garbage, medical waste and flies. We are talking about beauty here not love. It's relative. This same scene to someone born in that environment might be commonplace to them and a skyscraper or desert oasis might seem beautiful to them. As soon as you speak a word you are speaking relatively. So what is "unconditional love" ? Does that mean we love the smell of week old urine and rotten eggs? Do we love to watching children being tortured ? Do we love seeing a pile emaciated corpses that have begun to stink? Another way, the more common way this term "unconditional love" is applied is not love alone. It's a decision to be committed to the well being of another person no matter what. For instance a mother might say this of her children. Does this mean the mother is feeling love for her child 24 hours a day? No she does and thinks about other things as well. Does this unconditional love means she loves everything? No. Other children that are not hers she will not have the same level of commitment to. Unconditional love is not constant love nor is it loving everything. What about loving everything all day land all night long? That might sound like a nice idea but it's not humanly possible and it's not a good thing to love things like harming people. What about if we like the idea of oneness (nonduality) means we we pick some word that we like to be the oneness and everything is made out of it? That is cute but nonsensical. Is nuclear waste, vomit and piss love ? Or is it just the plants , trees and decaying branches that are love? Love is a tree or is it that you love trees? There's a difference. Again "infinite love" "Absolute love" "unconditional love" "purity" "perfection" These are all idyllic mental constructs. Some to say love is endless but loves ends, It takes time to realize this And then ones are born

For women’s perspective on nonduality, are you familiar with Lisa Cairns and Ananta Kranti? They are my two favorite female speakers.

So basically everything, life purpose, all your dreams, all hopes, all your aspirations, all your goals, all your different passions etc. should all be dropped when you want to become awakened? Because when you reach nonduality/infinity every duality will collapse eventually and you are giving up yourself, everything of yourself. So is life purpose then for example not just a big distraction that keeps you in the dream? Or all your passions. These things are just moving you farther and farther away from awakening because they are all coming from ego in the end, which you have to give up. I mean I try my best to give them up, but sometimes its really hard. Then why is Leo encouraging us to find our life purpose if its just a distraction?

Jesus Christ on a bicycle! That's real nonduality/duality right there bicycle, Jesus Christ/nonduality on a bicycle, with two wheels, get it? I'm sorry, but I wanted to say that all day and you gave me an excuse. But I mean really, there are jet skis now, so walking on water just isn't a real big deal, ya know? Pretty cheap of you not to just fork out the money for a jet ski. Changing hundreds, thousands of people lives and teaching a higher truth is really what Jesus was noted for, really. A few miracles thrown in there just for funsies, sure.

@Nak Khid When you immerse yourself in something and you feel good as a result, that IS what you define as love. I think your main problem isn't that you don't understand what love is: it's that you don't understand what nonduality is. When you follow relative love to its ultimate conclusion, to the point where you see through the distinction between self and other, you break through to Absolute Love. You realize that the love that you only extended to a limited amount of reality is actually an intrinsic part of all of reality, even the parts that you used to hate (death, suffering, injustice).

From my opening post You left these other things out form what I said in my opening post Love like all feelings comes and goes like the tide. People who are deeply in love and devoted adn commuted to each other but they are not feeling that love 24 hours a day and to attempt to do so, though impossible would be excessive and smothering. They encounter other people and situations they are not feeling love constantly. There are other emotions in this world. And let us not pretend that love is all there is to try to make it fit into this idea we may have of nonduality. Streams are not infinite. The have a time when they are formed and a time when they dry up. Any feeling is part of duality, fear, anger, love, sadness, joy, tranquility, excitement They don't have to be paired as duos of opposites. Every word and thought spoken here is separation. That we need to survive and communicate with each other right here and now. yes, it is an action, these variations yes, and one can even love ice cream. but is a hand grenade love? Is an electron love, is a shoe love? Is a cute puppy love? No, things aren't love. Love is a feeling and energy if you like from one being to another. It rises and falls, like the ocean. Things die. Others new born.

In a rational, relative context of love you are correct. In this context, no one here is advocating to accept or cause harm to oneself or others. You are perceiving what you consider to be “nonduality” through a relative, rational filter. This creates distortion. A dead-giveaway of the attempt to maintain a relative, rational filter is that you continuously default to rape and murder as not being love. Of course, rape and murder are not love in a relative, rational context. You write: ”This is the danger I am talking about that occurs when nonduality is divorced from it's traditional and then when further confusion is added by attempting altering to change the meaning of the word love”. You are creating that divorce. No one here is advocating for the divorce of what you call “nonduality” and a relative form of love. A transcendent awakening reveals both and how they are connected as one. If you haven’t had a sufficient awakening, you will not be able to see this and absolute and relative will get conflated. The divorce, confusion and conflation is your creation by trying to figure this out through a limited rational, relative lens. As well, there is no objective, universal meaning of love in relative, rational constructs. You can easily explore this yourself by examining grey areas of what qualifies as “love” and how meaning is relative. For example, my parents don’t consider homosexual couples as being “love”. They see it as unnatural, deviant behavior. Yet to the homosexual couple the meaning is love. As well, you obviously don’t consider rape as love, yet I’ve known rapists that clearly considered it love. . . Yet again, these are relative explorations to breakdown the illusory construct of an objective, universal love within relative constructs. There are much much bigger fish to fry. What is being pointed to here cannot be figured out rationally, because the rational filter itself is causing distortion. You would need to awaken beyond this limitation. In doing so, you will not have to reject any of your relative constructs of love, yet you will become aware that they exist within a higher transcendent love. Some body-minds may realize this in a “Big Bang” type of awakening. Yet from what I’ve observed, most body-minds need to continually expand their capacity to love in a relative sense. The further out the boundaries are pushed, the higher likelihood of a big awakening. For you, rape and murder are too far outside your current edge. Focusing on rape and murder is just re-enforcing your relative, rational construct. I would consider working at your edge. For example, consider someone/something that is right on the edge of being worthy of your love. Who/what is in that grey area in which they sorta deserve your love, but don’t quite qualify for your love. Work in that range and expand your capacity for relative love. Ime, this will provide grounding for higher awakenings. You could also take a fast track through psychedelics, yet it would be much harder to integrate the higher awakenings on the small ground you currently stand. If and when you have a full awakening, you will realize “It’s Love”. There is no other word for it. It will be the word that appears.

a formless quality is a formless quality not love If I imagined loving something, loving something is a feeling. Therefore doing so would not lead to the idea that it is not a feeling. Also if I loved something I would not always allow it to be exactly as it is. If it was going to harm itself or others I might try to stop it . Love is not accepting everything. That is apathy pretending to be love Again you are talking about a behavior "accepting" and what you are saying here about accepting rape and murder is very wrong. Accepting raping and murder is not loving. This is the danger I am talking about that occurs when nonduality is divorced from it's traditional and then when further confusion is added by attempting altering to change the meaning of the word love. Love is a simple thing available to us all in it's higher and lower forms. It is not an obscure intellectual concept only available to a few in some kind of rare solitary altered state that only certain people can understand .

This is an interesting essay and I recommend everybody read it at the above link because it brings up many points of view. Traditional oneness traditions (nondualism) or monism do not say love is all that exists. It seems the thinking is this, there is no separation all is one and since this is the case we get to choose what we want it to be so we choose "love". And then we see in the essay once this is done other thinkers come in and may then start redefining love as they want it do be and the Course in Miracles version is described in another essay on love: https://circleofa.org/library/what-is-the-meaning-of-love/ The Course in Miracles does not use the term nondualism but some say it has an aspect, a Christianized one, resembling nondualist concept. ___________________________________________________________________________ "love" is not the oneness described in Advaita Vedanta or Buddhist nonduality THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH (Buddhism) 1. Right understanding (Samma ditthi) 2. Right thought (Samma sankappa) 3. Right speech (Samma vaca) 4. Right action (Samma kammanta) 5. Right livelihood (Samma ajiva) 6. Right effort (Samma vayama) 7. Right mindfulness (Samma sati) 8. Right concentration (Samma samadhi) Although Buddhists advocate right action which is moral, honorable, and peaceful conduct, they prefer not to advocate love and instead compassion because love can include love of power, food, money, sex, etc, attachments and desires they believe lead to suffering (although some might not deny or advocate certain forms of love) However they don't say that this feeling compassion is all that exists. Bhakti yoga is more focused on love. Bhakti yoga is focused on loving devotion towards a personal god. The Sanskrit word bhakti is derived from the root bhaj, which means "divide, share, partake, participate, to belong to". The word also means "attachment, devotion to, fondness for, homage, faith or love, worship, piety to something as a spiritual, religious principle or means of salvation". According to Samrat Kumar, bhakti yoga is an Indian tradition of "divine love mysticism", a spiritual path "synonymous for an intimate understanding of oneness and harmony of the eternal individual with the Divine (the universal Being) and all creatures, a constant delight" Neither the Course in Miracles with it's LOVE IS A LAW WITHOUT AN OPPOSITE not Bhakti yoga teach that rape and murder are love. from the essay at top People who say everything is love often will say rape and murder are love, everything is included. some will articulate this a neutrality. I think rape and murder are not love. Love is a feeling. You can love to murder people but that doesn't mean love is murder. Love is an affection, preference or devotion to something. It is not the object itself. And if you claim to love everything, you love eating shit, you love torturing animals. That still does not mean love are those things. And there is a word for neutrality, it's neutrality. Neutrality is not love, love is not everything and love comes and goes it is not infinite. You can maintain a belief in oneness of all things (and I prefer this to nonduality which is a negative term) but that does not mean the oneness is love. What you have done is decided the oneness have a particular character love. So what's wrong with advocating love? Why knock that? Isn't it a wonderful thing? No, it can be hideous if love evil things. And it's worse if the word stripped of it's natural meaning by saying everything is love, evil is love, hate is love, police brutality is love, racks are love, puke is love etc. That to me is spiritual violence. It takes a word which in it's highest form is caring and helping each other and living things and then say it includes everything including evil and harming people and then tries to hide behind being pro-love in saying everything is love. It is not being pro-love. It is a false empty love, a facade The traditions that nondualism comes from have ethical codes and these ethical codes are part of how their version of nondualism is realized. If you take that away it can potentially become very dangerous, where everything is accepted and some things should not be accepted.

I think Leo should be the first one who wants science to understand psychedelics and be able to induce the psychedelic experience without actually taking them. Regarding awakening.. I agree with fred (the nonduality teacher they talked about in the other thread) that we are already awake. There's nothing to Awaken to. This is reality.. This is as real as it gets..hello, Can you see it?

You are creating duality. I don't see any duality. Don't even come to me with that bullshit about duality or nonduality, I have no interest in that unless you have a question. You can't help me.

If you have become conscious of nonduality, i.e. Reality is Not-Two, then you haven't thought this through yet. Fear is the sense of separation. "You" fear that which isn't "you". But that is delusion, there aren't two. There isn't separation. Love is inclusion. And because there aren't two, everything is included. Therefore, Love is Truth and fear is only delusion.

I will make this quick and swift. Mirrors Since there is no physical reality, when I look at a mirror and see my “reflection”, from the point of nonduality, what is the mirror? A rectangular void on which consciousness projects an image of the avatar it is inhabiting? Computer / Phone Screens When I interact with my phone, since there is no physical existence... what is that appearing inside the screen? Does this mean that we are creating more stories and events by using our phones, because they are the ULTIMATE research and communication tools? In summary: Am I God using an iPhone it itself dreamt up, and when using it I invent more realities. All that I see in my phone I imagined and is not real. What are the implications for life? Lets say I meet someone on a dating app. I dreamt up the app, and then dreamt up the conversation... what if we meet in real “life”. What are the implications of that?

One of the things I find interesting with the Wolfram Physics Project (WPP) is that it describes all of reality as a single graph. And it's not just confirmation bias because I also use a graph in my model. It means that physical matter and space are the same "no-thing". Or to put it in another way, physical matter is structured space, which is the same as what alternative researcher Nassim Haramein has been saying. The WPP model is directly consistent with nonduality. Everything, including our physical bodies, are a result of the graph and nothing else! And there is no actual separation other than the points in the graph being connected to each other into a unified whole. So our physical bodies are literally avatars, made of structured space which in turn is a result of the single graph of reality. Here is a short presentation of the WPP model: