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That's cool but I'm mainly interested in emotional and spiritual benefits. I have a theory that most kriya bans don't measure their progress by what they should, which is stillness of the mind and bliss. Personally, I've never experienced anything crazy like that, but I'd like to. But the reason I do kriya is because of the bliss it gives me. I can testify to this. It's a natural high. It stimulates the nervous system in a way that makes you very relaxed in the body and mind and gives a euphoric sweet feeling. It's the biggest life hack that no one knows. I so enjoy people's reactions when I tell them about it. Isn't cardio just better for health? It's also easier to get into. Also if you lift and try to build muscles you need to eat more which would strain your stomach. You don't need to eat that much to gain cardiovascular health. Big biceps looks good but I doubt they give health benefits. What the heck does a modern person need muscles for outside of core strength? Speaking as someone who used to be a buff gym rat and then couldn't work out for years of gut-related health problems who've just begun to run.

So lately in the forum the 'bliss' word have been coming up a lot...there seems to be people against it and people saying is the only thing to seek in the path. Here's what I found: Bliss is not just a normal state of consciousness. Bliss feels 'bliss' (or very good), because when the Bliss is being experienced, there is non-localisation of Consciousness. And what happens when there is not a feeling of existing inside anything? That you exist everywhere = Unity. So the 'state of consciousness' of Bliss is not just a dumb empty feeling that feels so good just because of nothing. It feels so good precisely because Unity is being experienced. So when some of you guys say... Ask yourself this question: Are you actually with that understanding or 100 Awakenings reached, experiencing Unity right now? Here's the thing: That dumb Bliss... actually provides Unity 100% of times! It never fails. Is direct. What about the profound data and understanding you have gathered? How many times when you hold those thoughts in your mind, Unity is being experienced? Just some interesting questions I think some of you guys would benefit from... Would love your input on this @Water by the River

The only thing to give credit to for those more eastern like yogic Buddhism stuff is that some of them talk about how the universes as a whole are in a process of awakening themselves beyond humanity, we are on the 84th out of 114th and that even after that it will keep going but "fully realized" whatever that means, in other words the shareble experiences are temporarily limited until the whole universe reaches a certain level and of course certain individuals have supposedly penetrated into higher states which are of course by virtue of the grounding for them not being laid out those experiences can not be completely shared, probably because each super state universe beyond a certain level will require specific uniqueness from most beings to form a shareble experience which makes the current process and reality of sharing simply a beacon to reach the same level but of a different type to those who are not yet even close to let's say the 84th level or whatever level a human can jump into. It might be possible to reach super states by "fusing" groups of humans at the energy level/psych whatever level, whatever combination of methods you can think of which of course goes into dangerous territory as usual, sadhguru himself said that in process of consecrating the dhyanalinga multiple human beings had to get together to make the process easier/less risky and each person would have a particular set of chakras assigned which of course corresponds to those same 114 chakras that the universes supposedly are on, I choose to put some faith in these things because they sound cool, fun and adventurous, it would be interesting to know which "chakras" people's trips can reach, maybe it even goes beyond 114th or something, it's obvious that everything is "imagination" and "solipsistic" but that's why I believe this is part of why this impossibility is being manifested, so that the impossibility of multiple selves become realer and the experiences deeper, more diverse and repeatable, I have no idea. Any human knows what joy is and anyone is able to fully surrender to a perfect bliss/joy/love whatever it's just that only shareble love is allowed here, reality is going for multiple loves, multiple selves, the sustainability of something is dependent on it's sharebility/reproduction/survivability, we're going for a triple infinity of infinite bliss/infinite non suffering(both create specificity when together) and multiple selves, because now you have multiple types of infinity that can work together, this automatically implies the necessity of time+quantity+intelligence to "sort it out", I'll spare myself and you my autistic ideas about the fundamental reasons for the mechanics lol.

I think most people get into consciousness work believing they can end their suffering. I think there's only an end to needless suffering, but you can't truly end suffering altogether. After a while though, your spirituality slowly evolves from wanting an end to suffering, to wanting bliss, to wanting understanding, to experiencing truth, to becoming/dissolving in truth. The spiritual journey goes through loads of evolutions. Your spirituality becomes about truth rather than suffering or bliss

It´s not the only game in town, sure. But in my experience is the only game worth mastering. What is the goal of the other game? Where does the understanding or being 'conscious' ends? @Leo Gura It doesn't make sense to me that you say that the end of suffering or bliss, doesn't mean you are Conscious. We are talking about states of Being, right? About Consciousness being on a certain level of activation, of entanglement vs of Liberation. When you say 'one is deeply Conscious', we already then are talking about an individual holding information or data in their mind about something. I get this might be useful for any kind of material mastery, but what this have to do with Spirituality?

Most are True changes are permanent , a taste differs from permanent growth. Yet also horizontral growth can be experienced deeper love, bliss etc. That is what interests me also for example deeper spacious experiences and to do retreats there. I love expanding consciouness feelings etc. I'd love to experience a permanent structure change in that sense...!

Let's see, absolute reality, as its name indicates, is reality, now. there is no other. obvious. what happens is that as humans we live a limited dual experience, which makes reality not seem absolute but relative. one thing in relation to another. and limited: with beginning and end. but that is not to say that it is not really absolute. Right now, having a coffee on a terrace, I am aware of the absolute that reality is, but aware to a certain point because I cannot get rid of the apparent limitation. if now i go up to my house, i do enough 5meo, there is absolutely nothing left of the relative. zero. reality expands to infinity, without bottom. and in the infinite I recognize myself as the unborn that is, total, infinitely abundant, without limit. it is an obvious and perfect realization. there is no more possible depth because what I am is, precisely, infinite depth. When you say that what I am explaining is missing something to be the true awakening, I think that what happens is that you do not understand it because you have only accessed States of bliss, but not truly infinite, since it is impossible without psychedelics. nobody can. You're a steel door, you can't understand it until you blast the door with dynamite. It is very easy, it only takes will and courage

I've heard of guys who just sit around and bliss out. But your "comprehension or realization of full enlightenment" will come from sitting still and shutting off your mind. So I don't see contradiction here. You're basically talking about insane amounts of meditation. This is a very reductionistic and misleading way to put it. Well, I beg to differ. You make a good point. However from the point of view of teaching, the classic path you suggest boils down to sitting for months on end in silence doing nothing. So I have nothing to teach on that matter. Anyone who is hardcore enough to undertake that path is welcome to do so. Realistically extremely few people will ever do this. And talking about it endlessly is not going to help people do it. I would say, either decide to do it or stop talking about it. From what I can see you basically got two ways to achieve this: 1) Insane amounts of full-time meditation. This requires you quit your job, drop your relationships, and meditate full-time for months. 2) Do years of pretty hardcore Kriya yoga. With no real guarantees. I'm not sure what kind of promises Kriya makes about the end of suffering. Doesn't seem realistic. What other way is there? The reason I don't talk much about these paths is because they are so hardcore I don't think anyone will do them. Those people who would do them are basically taking the path of the full-time monk. And if you're just going to meditate an hour or two per day, I would consider the end of suffering a pipe dream. There is a good reason why I've never talked much about this whole "end of suffering" business. And that is because this is such a near-impossible feat that only the hardest of the hardcore will achieve it. And even those who claim to achieve it, I have my doubt how true it is. So I say back to you, have mercy on my followers and don't fill their heads with pipe dreams. Many of them don't have the potential to end all suffering. And once you fill their heads with this expectation, you will multiply their suffering many fold. The reason I talk about psychedelics is because they are effective for ordinary people in one weekend. But of course this cannot produce the positive benefits from years of a full-time monk lifestyle.

You would be the first one for whom that bliss-out has worked permanently without the comprehension or Realization of Full Enlightenment by just shutting off the mind and sitting still. I see. If you mean the manifestations/appearances/Awakenings n+1 that Consciousness can produce WITHIN it and become aware of it, awaken to it ever more: It is endless. In that way, you also don't comprehend it. And never finally will or can. Its God business exploring what it/God can do, its potential, forever. We are the instruments of the Reality/God doing that. It will never stop, never run out of new Awakeninsg. An Infinity of Infinties, as already Cantor has shown. But I do comprehend the Absolute, or my True Nature, and the nature of the dream. And with that all possible dreams. And that ends the separate-self, and the psychological suffering. And with that, we align. And I am, and will remain, a big fan of your explorations and Awakenings. Just have some mercy on your followers: Many of them don't have the potential you have of exploring the Multiverse/Consciousness, and just suffer more if they don't pursue the classic path to the end of suffering, the end of the separate-self contraction, or Full Enlightenment, and go instead for exploring the Infinite Infinities of Reality. Most of them will probably not reach Full Enlightenment in this life, but it is not the only life they have. It is growth over a long cycle of lifes (see for example Jürgen Ziewe, http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Life_after_death_-_a_description_of_the_afterlife.html ). Maybe they have to learn their individual package in this life? Setting these up for the path of the (fascinating and important) exploration of the Infinity of Dimensions of Reality and ever higher Awakenings into Consciousness (your Karma) will lead to additional suffering on their side. Maybe there is balance possible that honours the respect, beauty and splendour of Gods creations, ever higher Awakenings and becoming more consciousness (that I don't denie at all), and the path each soul is traveling towards its True Being? To minimize suffering for all possible beings? Water by the River

Yes. Javfly33, every being ends up with that insight after having been beaten enough by INFINITELY large and Infinitely Intelligent Reality. Every being suffers as long as all these mindsets of doing something else than trying to finding permanent bliss persist. And even in doing or prefering something else they just do something that brings bliss or peace or good emotions, even when searching ever new Awakenings n+1, or getting maximum conscious, whatever that means in the individual case). So, its just the question of a) learning by suffering by trying the 1000+1 games separate-selfs play, and seeing that they all fail in bringing permanent happiness. Takes a longer time, but is the nature of this game/lila/universe and its Raison d'Être (the Lila-Show) or b) learning by insight and going straight to the finish line, or back home to ones True Being: Full Enlightenment. The Deep Identity Shift to being the Infinite Reality itself, the one without a second, or Infinite Impersonal Consciousness. All I am trying to do is highlighting this little dynamic how the Absolute "throws" itself out into manifestation, form, the many, separate-self, and PULLS itself back home either by suffering or insight. And valueing a) higher as b), or a) being somehow spiritual superior to b). In a certain way, I am spoiling the game/Lila of a). But just look at the reactions, I am very sure I won't spoil it for too many... Water by the River

No! Into Absolute Consciousness. You DO NOT comprehend what Consciousness is. No matter how well trained for bliss you are. You are blissing out but not comprehending consciousness seriously. Because you don't need to comprehend anything to bliss out. All you gotta do is shut off your mind and sit still. Again, that's just irrelevant to Consciousness. Consciousness does not care what the quality of your life is. These are human concerns and Consciousness is not limited to the human. I've never said you need to hold my priorities. Have whatever priorities you want. And I have mine. Different priorities get you to different places. There are trade-offs. The point is not to confuse the end of suffering (enlightenment as you call it) with Consciousness. Yes it may lead to more suffering. But also, nothing prevents me from also pursuing the end of suffering via traditional means. P.S. I don't believe anyone who says he has ended suffering. It is much more likely that these people are deluding themselves.

The end of suffering or bliss is not the same thing as CONSCIOUSNESS. Pursue whatever spiritual goals you want, it just doesn't mean you're deeply Conscious. It means you're very well trained. And maybe that's enough for you. That's up to you. But it's not the only game in town.

@Water by the River You forget that in this forum a lot of people are too cool for this selfish normie motivation of avoiding suffering/going towards freedom. They already said they don't mind suffering, they are so above of us normies just wanting to be blissed out with our mind totally empty. God! How we dare...choosing as the high goal to be just a simple peace of life as long as everything within is completely 'set up' and at ease. We would sell our brains with all the data and information for just the Empty Bliss. Such a traition to God. How simple we are...how spiritually inferior developed we are for having such selfish simple priority....

Of course psychedelics do not produce that because that if a function of training. What psychedelics produce is: 1) insane levels of consciousness which you will never ever naturally reach, 2) and insight. I have never claimed that psychedelics result in the end of suffering. All traditional spiritual techniques are about training your body and mind. Psychedelics skip all of that to take you to insane levels of consciousness and back. You cannot get the benefits of training without training. HOWEVER, just because you do a lot of training does not mean that you have accessed very high consciousness nor understand what consciousness is. So we're talking about two independent axes here. People love to confuse the two, which leads to all sorts of problems and arguments. The thing that I am vocal about it that people who do lots of training assume that that's all there to this work. But there is a whole other dimension which no amount of training can reach. You can train yourself for 40 years and you will still never reach levels of consciousness which I have reached. This does not mean I'm better trained than you or whatever you value like bliss, siddhis, or the end of suffering. I have never claimed such things because I have not even tried to train them seriously.

1. Enhanced willpower and capacities, clarity of perception, siddhis(still refining), decreased sleep, rapid insights, bodily bliss, removed Karma in extreme ways. Kriya on psychedelics brought certain degrees of consciousness about. 2. Started kriya last year

Don't you see it in his videos (at least in some its quite obvious)? His state? The reason why he continues to engage with the topic of Enlightenment and the Absolute to "others"? Don't you think it would be easier for him to stay removed from the world in the bliss of his realization? Why doesn't he do that? Love. To stay remote, in ones own bliss, and not engage the ignorance of the world is the easiest thing to do at a certain point. But shortly after that point, you realize you are all beings. Literally. And that realization.... Love. Water by the River

@Leo Gura Fair enough, but often these guys can say stuff that's appropriate for a particular group of people at a particular time. For example, Rupert Spira might say solipsism is madness to prevent people from going insane, maybe he intuits that people cannot swallow something like that. Then again that's assuming a lot. I do know more about Sadhguru because I have watched a lot of videos on him and not his YouTube do kriya yoga newbie stuff. If you look hard enough, he does admit the practice of yoga will not take you the deepest levels of consciousness but he didn't propose another "method". He has talked about karma, yoga, all of this stuff being more Illusion and I've also heard him say on many occasions that most teachers are not truly awake. So the persona he puts out doesn't represent his truest understanding and we can never know what his deepest understanding is if he clearly avoids talking about it EVEN in inner circles. So it makes sense when you say it's only possible to get it, if you get them talking to each other. The general ideas of consciousness, Infinity, Love and so on seem to be common among them. Actually, it's only Ralston (from the teachers I know) that doesn't talk about Love. I don't know the nuances. At the end, I really appreciate Ralston, it's less "trust me bro" spirituality. He has taught me a lot about beliefs, stories, assumptions, and the art of contemplation. At the same time, Sadhguru seems to be extraordinarily powerful. If he does certain things, he can make your body shake viciously, release trauma and experience deep states of Love, Joy, Bliss and Oneness but they don't seem to qualify as awakenings for me. From all the teachers, sadhguru intrigues me the most. I have seen him make 1000 people go nuts by clapping once. There is something going on there.

Then let me have the cases which you consider fully enlightened that don't align. I will try to align them and their pointers if the pointers are about the Absolute, and the examples know what they are talking about. "Rupert Spira says that solpsism is madness. Ramana Maharshi says there are no others. Rupert Spira says consciousness is love, Ralston says love is just an emotion. " I could align that. All 4 cases know what they are talking about. Spira: Solipsism from the perspective of an unenlightened separate self is madness. From the unenlighened mindstream Solipsism is just not true, because the "I" refered to is not the Absolute, or Impersonal Infintie Consciousness, Reality itself. Ramana: From the Absolute perspective there are no others. But that needs Enlightenment, and a deep identity shift towards Infinite Impersonal Consciousness, Reality itself. If one is then inclined to talk fully from the Absolute Side of the street: No problem. Spira: Consciousness is love: Ones True Nature, Impersonal Infinite Consciousness opens the mindstream towards love and bliss, or loving all that is and arises. Very clear once enlightened. Ralston: Love an emotion in the meaning that some mindstreams show a little bit of it sometimes, others more often, the permanently enlightened mindstream needs that as basis to stay enlightened/awakened, but also produces that love as result of staying in ones nature on a consistent basis. It is a perspective on love as state that can dominate a mindstream or not. Water by the River

Ralston is just being very picky about his words, as he always is. He is saying that a relative phenomenon like psychedelics has no direct relation to enlightenment or truth. Ralston tends to be anal about such things. He never levels with you on your relativity. He always speaks very strictly, with this sort of autistically hyper-Absolute perspective, so to speak. He's very careful about saying things like "psychedelics will lead you to enlightenment" or "everything is love" or "enlightenment is full of love and bliss." He doesn't want to lead people on with ideas. He is very careful about this. Admittedly, he does feel a bit standoffish when it comes to talking about psychedelics. He could offer more nuance so that he is not misunderstood as this entire thread misunderstands him. But, I do believe it is a misunderstanding, as he says at the end "it is possible to have direct consciousness while on some drug." Maybe this is just his teaching style and it works well in his workshops. I don't like it either, though.

The whole point of God to create suffering/bliss is so you are constantly inclined to Bliss/Liberation ,imo, is crazy that some of you guys want to 'reject' or 'deny' this rules, by saying there is no difference between bliss and suffering. Of course there is! The difference is imaginary? Of course. But everything is imaginary. The fact that a hammer falling in your hand is imaginary, and a blowjob is imaginary, doesn't prevent that God creates for itself that one thing will be preferable to other thing. Now...if the goal is actually to feel as Blissful as when the hammer is hitting on your finger in the same way as getting the blowjob, then kudos to you, that is next level mastery. But notice that that goal is itself again God wanting to feel good. That craving/inclination is totally inherent to the game, is the foundation of the rules. Is how the dream has coherence. Absolutely any movement of any being in reality is subconsciously aimed to move towards becoming free of the bounds/liberation/dissolution/...etc. Nothing more egotistical than the ego thinking he is above the rules and he doesn't care about bliss/salvation.

Yes. As a very experienced meditator with longterm-practice and seasoned in Awakening one can do two things a) completely shut off the thought-flow: A high-speed cut-off at the beginning stage of a thought-emergence. The thought doesn't look like a thought in this earliest emergence phase of it, more like a ripening "seed" that is cut off. Lots of training until that point... And to continue that high-speed-cutoff of emerging thought "capsules" can stop the thought-flow completely. Until having had it, hard to imagine. b) second, and much more important: Staying lucid while thinking, "riding" with ones awareness on the thought-stream. Pretty impossible to describe, stems partly from the ability to do a) . That skill allows to carry the meditation/awareness into daily life. It also causes (due to its momentum in daily life more so than a), since one cant act/work without a thought flow running) the Awakened States of nonduality/one with the visual field, mere appearance (solidity of visual field removed), timelessness (time is imagined right here in THAT), boundlessness (any limit would be imagined in THAT. All of the states that psychedelics also cause. But "without the pill". And it also it cuts the separate-self-contraction in the head which just dissolves, opening up a flow of bliss that is so strong to just overpower the suffering that the remaining separate-self tends to cause in cycles. These are "hard" states of consciousness, not some wishful thinking or some soft states. The separate-self/ego main-building block is regular suffering/being unsatisfied, rejecting or wanting something that is not present in that state, seeking it, getting it or not getting it, and suffering again. Water by the River

funny, hm? When you hit yourself with a hammer on the knee that is also illusory. Same as with the separate-self that you mostly consider yourself to be during everday life (at least I assume). It hurts (not all the time, but regularly), and if you don't know how to switch that off and release the self-contraction, you are going to suffer. Illusion yes, but suffering. yes. And? You prefer the suffering over the bliss? Oh yes there is. It feels quite similiar what you get when to go for a trip. Except one doesn't need the psychedelic then. Dissolving the self-contraction/duality/suffering with on-board-devices, independend of the 5-MeO or whatever, and having a blissfull nondual state of infinite release. The visual field turning into mere appearance/clear light "hovering" in infinite consciousness. Ones true being, right here, right now. No more clouds of ignorance/self-contraction. The suffering IS the mechanism that never lets the separate-self or self-contraction stop seeking and suffering until it is dissolved in its True Being. After doing that long enough, there is a deep switching point of identity and access to this flow of bliss. Its called Full Enlightenment. Look forward to it! That is actually way better news of your(!) Potential than anything you wrote of in your post. It is your own potential, your True Nature. I am not telling you to do anything different (as practice) than what you are doing right now, but just consider to stop declaring heaven inexistent. You know, its a grave sin listed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church to declare heaven non-existant Water by the River

here is something in which I do not agree and that for me is the deception of Buddhism. I agree with Leo that Buddhism is false, I wanted him to say exactly why he thinks it is false but he didn't say it. I tell you why I think it is false and where I see the error in your line of thought (imo). For you there is a samsara, maya, from which you have to scape to enter the bliss of true nature. the principle of Buddhism: the end of suffering. moksha would agree with you. there is none of this, that implies a duality that is not real, it is illusory and that is why enlightenment and Buddhism are illusory. there are only states of consciousness, and all states are the absolute. hence we call it "absolute". There is nothing else. suffering and bliss are the same, they are different states of what you are. spiritual work is not escaping from the wheel of samsara, there is no such thing. It is to deepen in the now, in you, to the maximum, for the beauty that this implies. enlightenment=to reach a goal is falsehood. there is no goal, this is self-limiting, and that is the error of Buddhism, which categorizes the state of being as Buddha or non-Buddha. Buddha is a myth . only one state deeper than others but not maximally deep because depth has no bottom what is real is the ability to free yourself at will from the logical conceptual mind, understanding what this mind is. there is nothing mystical about it, or rather, everything is mystical, including the conceptual mind. everything is existence and what we do is to be conscious of ourselves. without renouncing to suffering, because we are configured as humans now and suffering is human

Yes. I learned here to my amazement that telling about the possiblity of opening up infinite bliss and release when the egoic self-contraction is dissolved/shut down (literally a contraction mostly felt in the head, and only felt as having been there when its gone), the ignorant/wrong concepts are cut off, and the solidity of the visual field is replaced with mere appearance/clear light, in an Infinite Opening of Reality without any possible limits, and telling of the bliss that that brings on a permanent basis whenever accessing True Nature (which is always here and can not not be here)... ...that all of that is supposedly not possible. Although I have the verification of exactly that every day. And although thousands of people across all times, centuries and cultures, across all wisdom traditions, tell the same. Honestly, what is left of small-me really rejoices in Big Me of the fact that "I" can verify that for myself without needing anything or anyone, or experiencing anything. Especially, i don't need any kind of -ISM anymore, which can only point the the moon, act as pointer. IT, or the "moon", is always right here. Can not not be here. And will eternally be here. Never lost, never found, only overlooked and clouded with ignorance and some other funny arisings hiding the Truth. Well, apparently every being is free to hug the spokes of the wheel of Samsara the egoic self-contraction, declare it God (and not contained within God), and affirm its inherent nature of suffering as the only spiritual goal possible, declaring that un-Truth as summum bonum. Well done, I know a gentlemen with style that would be proud of that.... Well, God & Gods & Gentlement with style don't seem to get tired of playing that game anytime soon. Until then, lets enjoy the show... And now, annoying Water-by-the-River, would you please s*** **? Selling Water by the River

Uuum, lets assume Reality is infinite intelligent. Meaning Impersonal Infinite Consciousness manifests an Intelligence that holds Indras Net in itself, infinitely intelligent. And lets assume that: “Enlightenment is an accident. But we can make ourselves more accident prone.” So Reality wants a certain mindstream/states(like boundless timeless infinite mere appearance infinite consciousness)/not-too-unloving-personality/maybe certain other stuff also... : The making oneself accident prone. And then the accident can happen. Its not for the separate-self to decide when precisely that happens. Like I wrote before, there are self-guarding mechanisms of Reality. Reality apparently doesn't want too many enlightened uncompassionate egotists basking 24/7 in the bliss of their true nature. And True Nature = bliss = shutting off the self-contraction in ones head, making the whole field groundless mere appearance floating in infinity, and infinite release a the snap of ones finger. That is just how it is, although many apparently don't like to hear it. Water by the River