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@28 cm unbuffed No one can say when/if such a process will ever end. Would you say you are still disoriented right now, as in you have woken up and are free and just don't know what to do? Or do you feel like you're still in the painful rebirth process? I am curious, because you state you "try to do" things to get to or stay in a certain state; whereas, Realization might be more akin to "already HERE", and all is arising, nowhere to go to get HERE. Just note: Consciousness (with capital C) is distinguished from consciousness in how I might chat about it. The former can only be Realized; whereas, the latter is a conceptual term that has various meanings attached to it like sleep/waking states or studies in Western science, etc. In how I'd point to it, when Consciousness is realized, there is no self... and that can really be destabilizing to the mind, where the ego is housed as a structure of thought. This is why I'm pinging you to find out what it is that you are working with. Often, peeps try to make sense of pretty profound realizations with the mind, and it just gets whacky, more confusing and things can go south pretty quickly. If that's the case, it can be important to distinguish and/or bring into greater clarity that there is a movement in/as Consciousness prior to it touching the mind where Oneness is bifurcated (duality). You're not crazy, but 99.5+% of humanity will not understand WTF you're on about, and that's not their "fault per se, but it ain't going to help you out to see them rolling their eyes at you. Realization is like Knowing that there is only THIS (Consciousness with what is happening, including all thoughts arising, in/as Consciousness) and not identifying with any of it, but still able to freely interact via the individuated dream character (the previously identified self). ~ kinda weird, I know... It's so simple and plain that the mind/ego selfplex rejects such a notion, as it alludes to its non/illusionary existence. But, it's basically what Jesus reportedly pointed to when he said, "I and the Father are One"... kind of nonduality in cultural terms present at that time. No one can say what Truth is or how to get there... a little touch of grace is sometimes referred to as being "necessary", so the general idea of meditation might be to make oneself prone. But, in the end, there's no real cause-effect relationship that "one can do to make it happen". I AM would be similar, but for the sake of discussion, maybe we can think of it as just a very subtle sense Being as presence, but not quite Knowing... just the sensory with a slight tinge of self awareness. Maybe one can think of it as feeling around the imagined edges of existing. Seems like one would likely have taken the conscious choice to meditate into this state. Flow consciousness is a state most anyone has experienced. There is no self awareness as one is totally enmeshed within the flow of consciousness, likely through an activity or a spontaneous flow in nature or something. Athletes, drivers, doctors, teachers, anyone can slip into this state, and there is plenty of research that kind zones in on this. There is no real "training" or seeking or whatever really required. When you say "curative", are you alluding to like a healing process that might be playing out?

Investigate what you are made of in a literal sense. Look into science, quantum mechanics. It’s much more about realizing and releasing misunderstanding, misinterpretation of reality & misidentification of self, than it is acquiring ideas & beliefs and trying to remember them. In learning about reality, namely QM’s, it begins to be realized there is not a separate object, ‘you’ , which has or does not have control over ‘reality’, as in ‘other separate things’. The word nonduality points to ‘not two’. For example, look for the separation between things seen, the seeing, and the awareness of the seeing. Similarly, look for any actuality of the ‘layers’ you mentioned. Be incredibly open minded, such that you consider it might not be that you don’t have control, but that control is a concept rather than an actuality. A thought, basically. Inspect thoughts, notice each thought seems to have meaning, only by referencing what it is not. Such as up loses meaning when you take away down, and down has no meaning without the subtle indirect reference to up. How do you know control is not the illusion? To have ‘control over your illusion’ is already to believe you are separate. spect, rather than assume. Inspect beliefs, such as “I was born”. Let assumptions go, and inquire into the actuality, or direct experience. Did you actually experience being born, or is it a belief? Again, this requires incredible open mindedness, which in large part means when thoughts arise in regard to what you’re sure you know to be true, you relax and let such thoughts come & go, rather than continuing to belief them. Inspect for what is actual. Notice subtle assumptions. Is your thought about nothing from direct experience, or an assumption. Is perception actually ‘yours’. Does ‘power’ even actually exist. What is it. How is it such that ‘you’, could have ‘it’. What does qm’s reveal about ‘parts’. How do you know those hindsight thoughts aren’t a facade, such that there is only the belief you’re doing any of that. What if it’s happening, and in believing the thoughts, you’re believing you’re doing, making decisions, etc. How are you separate of the universe. What is a universe. What is control, beyond a thought / idea. If thoughts freely come & go, without attachment / believing them, how is it known you are the person, the “I” which can’t jump 10 ft, which eats or does not. How would you prove you are the body, rather than the gravity, the million dollars, the bank account. Without beliefs, what is an identity. Ever seen or heard an identity. What does what you are have to do with God or anyone else. What is an ‘ego’, ‘living’, a ‘person’, ‘survival’, a ‘saint’. Sort assumption from direct experience. What is bliss. What is being. What is divine love. What is the evidence you are not.

@Chimera Seems like too much thinking and complex variables. I would simplify it down. Perhaps start with getting in touch with detached witnessing and contemplating something more straightforward like "everything" or nonduality. "God" is a super loaded concept with a lot of prior conditioning.

Hi everyone! Has any of you have experiences online with chat servers like Discords especially those 'spiritual servers' that have egotistical Admins? I got kicked from one of the server earlier because of some sensitive topic. I guess I need to learn my lesson to keep my mouth shut when it comes to advance topics like Psychedelics and Religion. To give you an idea, I've been watching Leo's video for a year now. I had my 1st Ayahuasca experience early this year. I can attest to say that most of what he shares on his channel are accurate. I am not saying all though as I'm yet exploring still (currently into NonDuality/Oneness). So with the server I mentioned, I've been with them for the past, lets say 3-4 months now. The server is not that active with people chatting, its like 2-3 people a day along with the one admin. To cut long story short, we were talking about Psychedelics.. The admin showed up and expresses his long story about his childhood and psychosis. You could say, his personal experiences shaped his perception about psychedelics in general and gave it some stigma. I was sharing my experiences about how Ayahuasca, but he continues his projections. At this point I can say that maybe the topic about Psychedelics in general re-opened his past experiences that he became unstable to handle comments. Then the topic shifted to Religions saying he only follows Christianity and Buddhism, he doesnt felt like idoling a statue etc... I kinda say 'You drew the last straw, have a nice day everyone" I don't know why I still continue keeping up with that server to be honest. Maybe because its Discord and its easy to just chat with someone on a whim while having other gaming servers up and switch around. He drew the last straw because I thought 'wow, this guy thought the world revolves around him'.. I mean its his server, but damn there are still people so blind in 2020, I guess I put too much faith on humanity ei? It put my mind in ease just by typing all of these.. Now I dont know if I will search for another spiritual groups on discord or something lol. I'm glad this forum exist though. That alone is enough. Thanks Leo! Thoughts? Guess you cant fully know someone until you touch his sensitive side. Can you say that a person's spiritual maturity comes with on how he/she handle situations? Like kicking someone out of nowhere because he/she can't stand his projections bouncing back to them.

I love this idea, but I couldn't wrap my head around trying to determine what teachings should come first without knowing someone. From my perspective people intuit different things and are all over the place with nonduality and spirituality. I'll read a section of writing or watch a video and get a lot from it, go back later and it's entirely different. I actually filtered the writing with my own level of understanding. It's just so... well you can't grasp it.

This is true. Also, it is inevitable. The world of form demands duality. There is a necessary polarity in all things. It is not like God can choose only love, beauty, and order in the world of form. There must also be hatred, ugliness, and chaos. Each necessitates the other. Even at the polarities, God still infuses everything. The joining of nonduality with duality collapses into the incomprehensible reality that is God.

I’m not into theoretical models of enlightenment. I’m not even into enlightenment. I’m much more interested in consciousness exploration and expansion. Most ideas of enlightenment are a turn off for me, because they are all limiting. Any definition or concept of enlightenment may have some interest, yet I wouldn’t want to be it because that would prevent me from being not that - and I’m more attracted to the freedom of everything. If someone told me enlightenment was a state of constant peace and joy, that would cut me off from non-peace and non-joy. Yet ime, models and concepts of nonduality and enlightenment have been beneficial in providing a scaffold for direct experience that was way out there. I’ve had many experiences that were so far out there, that I would have dismissed them as woo woo, imaginary or dreams. Yet then I’m like “So thaaaaat’s what Rupert Spira was trying to communicate”. Then I have a much better chance at catching the realization, integrating and expanding. I see SD as more of a model for cognitive development.

@Ivan Dimi I don’t disagree with you that consciousness work has value, This is obvious to you because you’ve already realized this. From my observations, some environments are more conducive for certain explorations. A lot of explorations are perceived as impractical and a waste of time. Environment and context has an effect on that. If I am working with a group of refugees that are filled with anxiety, discussing the value of quantum theory relative to personal transcendence is not practical and won’t go over very well. Helping them learn English, how to get around town, how to shop for food, where to buy the cheapest diapers etc. will resonate more strongly with them. And I’m talking about likelihoods. A person immersed in ISIS can have realizations, yet they are generally relative to their baseline conscious level. As well, the likelihood of big realizations would be lower. Your the odds of transmitting yellow-level realizations to an ISIS member is lower than than someone in a yoga group. Yet it’s also relative. I would consider a red-to-blue awakening as significant as an orange-to-green awakening. I see Maslow’s theory as an integrated whole, rather than distinct categories. No one is in one category 100% of the time. Yet life conditions do impact access. Last semester, a student’s father got gravely ill with kidney failure. The students family was in another country. The student was extremely worried about her father. It was the week before finals and the student wanted to take her finals before flying home. Her family got outraged and said as a woman she shouldn’t even be in college, she should be a homemaker. They told her she didn’t really love her father and not to come home. The student had a nervous breakdown and came to my office in tears, contemplating suicide. . . This is not a good environment to whip out some Rupert Spira videos on transpersonal nonduality. This was an environment to address situations at the personal level and problem solve.

@Moksha kind of. Anyone who thinks nonduality is a higher truth than duality and separation is missing the mark. There is an ego, there is an I, but we are still all one. Separation is true. Nonduality is true. Christ is me, but my mind/body/spirit complex could be more advanced than Christ’s is currently if I am actually a sixth density wanderer (it seems plausible to me, I have many of the signs of being a wanderer).

I am the glitch in the system. Still domt know what nonduality is, everything seems rather twosome to me. Balancing act between polarities

I was thinking about limits and the limit of the universe is nothingness. Nothingness limits itself because it is nothing. There is nothing beyond the limit. The ultimate limit of the universe is nothingness. And I was thinking about consciousness. When I investigate the self, I find emptiness, formlessness, silence. I look into myself and I find nothingness. So the limit of consciousness is also nothingness. And I was thinking about nothingness and realized that nothingness is not existence. Nothingness is nothing. Existence is isness. Nothingness is the absence of is. They are two! Yes? no? What are your thoughts on nothingness? I heard it said that in the occult they value duality as much as nonduality. I keep that in mind. I’m all about duality it’s petty rad even if it is illusion

@Adamq8 it’s all belief. All knowledge is belief, faith. The only truth is the present moment, the now. And you veil it in delusions! See that you believe in nonduality, you “know” it just like you used to “know” your fictitious self. All I’ve said here is belief. Can you not see that? There could be a separate reality. It’s possible nonduality is nothing but mental masturbation!

Nobody stopped nowhere.Your ideas of consciousness(es) are actually ideas, and that idea that an idea is other than an idea, is the illusion. Nonduality points to ‘not two’, you and consciousness, or consciousnesses. Precisely because there is only consciousness (not two) there is no such thing as a problem. If you say there is, you create that experience, as you are the creator of the reality you’re studying. When one finger of self-indulgence points, there are three pointing back, yet noticed. You haven’t yet recognized the distinction between your finite ideas and infinity, or, consciousness. This is like thinking about what hot chocolate tastes like, and in believing the thoughts, believing something is known about hot chocolate, when the thoughts are known, and the hot chocolate is not experienced. This is not the direct experience, or taste of, hot chocolate. A million pages on the hot chocolateses never amount to even a wiff of the actuality. Quantum mechanics, general & special relativity have always been unified btw. Only ignore-ance appears to separate.

it’s kind of silly to argue for distinction in a nonduality forum, I don’t know what to say. But boredom is not a response to a threat and neither is irritation, and that’s what fear is. A response to threat. A lack of engagement or satisfaction is not a threat to the ego. I suspect you’d argue it is, tho, which is why I don’t really want to argue. I guess I have tho, lol. You know, I could see my incentive to disagree comes from fear. And that makes me want to double down on my position. Fear is not present for me when I’m bored. Irritation and boredom are sisters, a response to dissatisfaction. A claim that fear is dissatisfaction would be a bastardizing off what fear is. But again this feels silly in a nonduality forum. Distinction is an illusion, in the end. Might as well say love is fear. Edit: boredom is like the incentive to play. boredom is a sister to playfulness, that’s not fear. Now that I’ve had my say, I’m curious rather than afraid. it’s additive. I’m afraid you’ll tell me I’m wrong, and I’m curious what your response will be. two different emotions. Edit2: ultimately I’m saying my desire to awaken stems from curiosity Edit3: one thing Leo said in another thread (I wrote it down) is this - “one thing you can bank on is this - all fear is illusion and falsehood “ and honestly this applies to emotions in general. Emotions are driving when we’re identified with them, and when we practice mindfulness emotions become fleeting and illusory. Perhaps the desire for enlightenment comes from suffering. You had that in your initial analysis. Ultimately suffering is the bigger picture of emotional experiences. There is suffering and there is bliss, two halves to the same coin. Practiced meditation leads to bliss and ego transcending. And an unpracticed mind is rife with emotion.

I got a lecture containing nonduality in one of my history elective classes in college. It involved the Mayans. Professor was woke as fuck though — actualized as all hell. He even talked to the fucking class about his cocaine and LSD experiences. I participated in that class a lot and almost regret not continuing my relationship with him, considering how much he seemed to like me as well. Value your relationships, folks — even with your professors.

@Leo Gura Leo, I think you forgot to mention entropy in your science videos. Leonard Susskind said that entropy is simply hidden information. And if we assume that reality as nonduality is perfect order, then what we believe to be disorder, decay, destruction and randomness actually also is order. This has profound consequences for how to perceive the universe. From a perspective of entropy as disorder we see the universe as a deteriorating machine while with entropy as order we would be able to see the universe as an intelligent system. You did mention that since humans have intelligence, the universe has intelligence, but I think that by examining entropy it can be made into a more general understanding of how the entire universe has vast intelligence. You have also mentioned that reality is infinite intelligence, and that's something that also may be possible to show by understanding entropy.

I checked his channel, he seems to be going balls deep in spirituality, doing retreats and shamanic breathing. Amazing!! This here shows the true power of psychedelics, to open your mind and make a paradigm shift. I myself remember being very attached to religion and doing spirituality from a religious stance and avoiding all Leo's talks about nonduality until I had my first experience with LSD. And although it was a micro dose it showed me something, how reality is actually weird. And from that day I opened up to nonduality.

@Vipassana Yes, and nonduality dreams all dualities ?

Infinite illusion is still illusion. How can anything unreal be important? Unless this is threatened by numbers, they cannot be significant. The only significance is the nonduality that cannot be threatened

Strange loops often involve self-reference, which is paradoxical. Eg statements about "everything", or God creating itself. Nonduality is self-reference because there's no split between doer and done. Or like if I told you that I am lying right now, would you believe me or not?

@Moksha @cuteguy thanks! but is noself separate from self? I guess talking about it is dual. But if nonduality is true, duality is not separate from it. Separation is the same thing as god, no? God is everything, even separation and unconsciousness. Maybe this is a silly question; noself is ultimately not exclusive of self. Not this not that means transcending it. You are it but you also are not.

@Mikael89 You have to distinguish between Absolute and relative domains of knowledge. Nonduality is about the Absolute. In the relative you can still be very deluded or mistaken.

Aha! I found an interesting possibility, that confusion and the sense of free will go together. They are both a result of a mistaken perspective. If anything, confusion is the more correct perception since free will is completely wrong according to nonduality. And confusion is also a delusion since reality as a whole is never confused.

For contextualisation, it seems that the OPs comment is a response to some Rupert Spiras youtube talk. It seems that Rupert Spiras nonduality version and its "direct path" method has lot in common with ideas advocated on this forum about the nature of consciousness.

Appreciate your response, thanks. Would love more clarity on this. How is RASA (“Ramaji Advaita Shaktipat Attunement”) not Reiki (“light, love”). If there is no difference, what is the intention of ‘people knowing it is not reiki’ (as in not the true nature, love & light). Again, much appreciated. Wondering...do you find any difference in feeling when considering Spira’s models & metaphors which serve to deconstruct duality & demystify ‘states of consciousness’ in the vein of realization of nonduality, in comparison to the model Ramaji offers which states separate people have levels of consciousness? Do you feel this misleads & feeds into the materialist paradigm in any way? It seems to imply to consciousness is measurable as a property of a separate self, which (‘who’) can ‘increase it’. Why would a teacher ‘play along’ with such a falsity? Making a confession seems very different that making a model that be default is the confession. Seems so misleading, thoughts? Accurate of consciousness...or accurate to Ramaji’s interpretation of separate selves which have levels of consciousness? See what I’m saying here, or no? Isn’t the assumed basis incorrect and misleading? It is literally feeding beliefs “I can raise my consciousness”, no? Is there a benefit to encouraging these beliefs that I’m missing perhaps? No offense I hope, really, but isn’t the “my students” thinking misleading & divisive? If not, how so? Again, seems rooted in a separate selves model from the start. No? Is this not already the true nature of consciousness...? It seems like adding layers, measurements, identification, beliefs, and teaching models. No? Can you really ‘break it down’ for me...how is what I’m saying skeptical, vs common sense?