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@axiom Fully agree on all points. I should have added some concluding remark from the Absolute side of the street, not everything from the Relative side of the street. >There is noone already, so there is nothing that can be done. There are only appearances arising which may or may not involve what seems to be an individual on some kind of path. Totally agree, but for sake of teaching-efficiacy, the Mahamdura-system throws the stick with which one pokes and blazes the fire only into the fire when the fire is sufficiently burning. In the Mahamudra-System (for example Pointing out the Great Way, Brown), there is only effort or artifical activity (or a person) involved up until and including the stage 3 of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual). One learns to cut all thought- and emotion-arisings fast enough (Stage 1& 2). When one is proficient enough in that, the visual field starts getting nondual (Stage 3), the separation perceived before drops away, and the visual field gets an appearance-only quality, empty, hologram-style. Then, at stage 4 (Nonmeditation Yoga), this effort or artifical activity (or believing in a person or agent doing these things) gets dismantled, because cutting off the Illusion-thought-arisings has become fast enough and automatic. Together with that, the concept of a doer/person/agent gets pointed out as another concept, and the meditation does itself. Here, the mindstream aligns for the first time with the real state of things, that an understanding can happen there really is no person, just a bundle of I-thoughts/I-feelings arising. And of course, there was no person/individual in the past, only an apparant Gestalt that looked like that, and which one used to overlay ones true being (Infinite Conciousness or Reality itself) with, there isnt one now, and there never can or will be, only as an illusion or overlay on the real nature of things. Ones True Being is able to generate this illusion (magnificienlty), but is not dependend on it. The show can happen without it. But reality can generate this illusion. Basically then one goes full Tony Parsons (there is no person, nothing needs to be done), but only at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga and not before. If you do it before, certain qualities are not generated that one needs to conform to the enlightened mind (nonduality, mere-appearance/imagined hologram-like quality of the visual field, infinitesness of the visual field, space not as independend self-existing "thing" but sth. imagined in consciousness which consciousness doesnt need to imagine, time and memory happening in it now, that one cant get out of it because there is no outside, and some other stuff). And when all of that is in place, Basis-Enlightenment or Crossing Over can happen, which Brown describes (among other things): " Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btagspa), which drops away. … The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space " The description of enlightenment as a dropping away of any kind of separate-identity/person/individual arising is universal in all enlightenment descriptions. Don't worry, by definition, the real you can't go away - ever. Only an illusion is seen through and understood. And the real you can generate the separate-self Illusion-show, so nothing really is lost. Whats more fundamental is still there. So It sounds more negative than it is. Leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space: And if you have become so impersonal or universal consciousness (nondual) that you can have that state of huge nonduality/mere appearance of the visual field/infiniteness sobre, well then you have deconstructed your separate self enough. This is the Gate-Keeper of the Gateless Gate. This deconstruction is better said a high-speed-search-task-and-cutting-off of separate self illusion-arisings (I-feelings, I-thoughts, Trekchö-Style), and that is what boosts the nonduality and mere appearance aspect of the visual field, which is exactly what you can also boost with psychedelics, but with much more of the separate-self illusions still staying intact.... Frank Yang called that once the God-Mind-state. >From the other side of the gate, it is said that to see apparent individuals believing that they exist, believing in their own agency... believing they have achieved enlightenment or indeed anything at all - is the sweetest joke going. Fully agree. And if it can happen natty in Nonduality-States, it can even more easily happen with doing only/mainly Psychedelics, because among other things, they exactly boost that Nonduality/mere apperance/infinite state. And if the separate self arisings are not fully seen through, you can get quite a show. And by the way, as Ken Wilber said, people doing both meditation and psychedelics, get the most out of it, so I am not against Psychedelics at all. Somebody made a very nice youtube-Channel on looking deep into the Abyss or Nothingness that precedes Nonduality: Prior to Non-Duality https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9vlZGtpdFIts8GOG5vu27g You can have full blow nonduality WITH an enlightened ego/person with an identity still going on, believing to be enlightened. Believing to be Awareness, Presence, God, whatever not. Stage 3 in Mahamudra. Quite a show... Beautiful video on that by Jac O'Keffee: and now, walking from the Relative Side of the Street a bit more towards its Absolute Side: In actuality, there is nobody selling water by the river, and nobody is buying it... And the short form, of all written above is: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! Enjoy the ride!

He means because it is realized there is nothing but existence. And not even existence because existence is a conceptual term which exists as an opposite category to a conceptual "non existence". Which is why people tend to view life as existence and death as non existence, which they think is an infinite nothingness they will go into. Because it is all this idea of categorically different states of being which are then conceptualized. All categories are thought perceptions and thought perceptions are appearances of reality and not default to reality. Sort of like they float on top of reality. In that way no thought or idea can ever actually be reality because it is an appearance of it. Reality precedes it. With absolute total loss of categorical thoughts, what is left is not any different but is no longer something or nothing or existent or non existent, for the sole reason that all of those things are conceptualized categories. And categories are thought appearances taking place within a reality which in absence of your mind is uncategorized. Without any category at all, there is nothing else to which anything could belong or be.

You used your mind to come to that conclusion. But the mind is the creator of illusion and falsehood. It is what has created everything we call “reality” out of thin air. Nothingness is the true nature of reality. I hesitate to say that “I am nothingness” since “I” itself is a mind creation, a part of the illusion.

@Inliytened1 First of all, I'm not Lester ! I dont know who that is or why you guys think I am him Second of all, It's impressive you have become enlightened without drugs. I used a lot of psychedelics and dissociatives and let me tell you the states and feelings you get while tripping are MERELY POINTERS to very complex concepts like infinity, oneness, nothingness, God, everything-ness, etc. These concepts are so abstract and out of this world YOU CANNOT EXPERIENCE THEM. They were not designed to be experienced. They dont exist essentially. Everything you feel on drugs is fake, but can work well as pointers, to open your mind to possibilities. So to all the people who claim they've experienced nothingness, infinity, God on drugs, IT"S ALL FAKE, IT"S ALL A HALLUCINATION. I promise you. Yes, the feeling was metaphorically close to the actual 'concept', but it was mostly what your limited human mind thought infinity or nothingness should feel like. Even if you were close, YOU"RE NOT EVEN CLOSE! Do you get it? Nothingness is not a feeling! Infinity is not a feeling! God damn, it should be obvious, I feel so stupid even saying this to you. They're all hallucinations! Trust me, it requires you to really abuse these substances until you truly realize the meaning of what a hallucination is. They work wonders to open you up, but then if you continue using them you'll slowly enter the schizo realm by thinking you're actually speaking to "aliens" and entities and God or whatever. The drug hits you so hard that the thoughts that pop inside your head seem like they come from an alien entity. Schizo stuff. That's called psychosis, not enlightenment. It's very easy to fall into drugs' trap of "there are more awakening, there are higher and higher awakenings" that Leo seems to have fallen into. It took me a while to realize this. I kept using and using thinking there are higher and higher awakenings when in reality I was going deeper and deeper into complete delusions, total schizo realm. Complete enlightenment is definitely possible without the use of any drug. If it's 'your' destiny to awaken, 'you''ll awaken. I seriously doubt the "AWAKE" state of Leo (awake with capital A , because you see apparently there's a difference between awake and Awake, or AWAKE, who tf knows?), mainly because this post definitely came from a place of arrogance, narcissism and complete disrespect for everybody. If you think you know more than someone just because you DEDICATED YOURSELF MORE AND MADE MORE SACRIFICES AND DID MORE DRUGS:))), you're out of your mind, you're operating under a limiting belief. Whoever says he's the OnLy oNe AwAkE is probably ego tripping. It's understandable

I don't think he believes in realizing nothingness/non-duality, he seems to write them off as imagination or not absolute, I'm not sure if it's a communication disconnect or what.

Have there been other teachers that say there's something further than non duality/nothingness?

The self is also an experience and does tend to appear alongside every occurring appearance. In many ways like a parasite which has attached itself to an appearance. There is heard music by itself, then appears this parasitic thought of "I am hearing this music". Over time it builds coils and coils of itself by its constant insertion of itself (thought-appearances like "I am _" "last week I _") into the fact of something's presence, like the presence of the color purple, which can in fact exist entirely absent of the self. Over time it becomes so strong that it becomes almost impossible to conceive of existence without it. It will comandeer everything. The question of death and deep sleep and various similar topics becomes a question of what will happen to it. Will it merge with some big Self? Will there be nothingness forever? It becomes so strong that it becomes impossible to comprehend that it can completely stop existing, just like any other appearance can, and nothing will change at all. You can be dead and hearing your favorite piece of music, because there wasn't any you ever hearing it full stop. The music appeared and that was it. It is one of many shapes existence takes. Never with a self involved. Only the appearance by thought that there is such a thing there. If you find some old obscure Victorian piece of music and listen to it, every long dead person who was alive and listening to it way back then, is there hearing it again. Because in actual fact nobody ever heard the music, the music appeared way back then and the music appears now. The hearing of the music is exactly the thing which is present and each time it appears it is exactly the same. Regardless of who apparently seems to be hearing it or who appears to be dead and buried or even if every living being in existence was dead. If there were no conscious beings in the entirety of existence, the heard music could still appear and it would be heard just the same. Because the hearing of the music is exactly what is present. And in fact there are no conscious beings, this is the way it has always been and always will be.

Correct. Of course. That would be the classic Buddhist Emptiness/Nothingness.

@nachiketa nothingness in this sense is just a fancy word for everything-ness

Chaos Theory - Point attractor Cycle attractor Torus attractor Strange attractor Let it speak to you through your disciplined eventual nothingness your own path and humiliations, experience, and stuff,,,,,,

@undeather all sensations you experience on drugs (especially hallucinogens) are fake, but they help you understand non-existent, meta, complex feelings/states such as oneness, nothingness, space, void, God etc. It's essentially an illusion (since those extreme/absolute feelings don't exist as part of the matrix, they are outside Reality and they were never felt, they are not supposed to be felt), but they work well as pointers, in order for your mind to metaphorically grasp such complex concepts that are beyond the human experience. It is what our human mind thinks those feelings should feel, but they paint a very good picture for us to understand complicated concepts. They are extremely helpful nonetheless. The experience is fake but the insight you get is pretty accurate

I was surprised when I learned that many blind people don't see a black or white screen, but rather nothingnes. I know You may find it difficult to understand what I mean by nothingness. You can try to close one of your eyes, what do you see with it? exactly, nothingness! Anyways, I felt like this nothingness is very similar to that we talk about in non-duality. This is the real nothingness, not black or white, it is like a trasnparent void.

You have to be extremely careful to distinguish time from change. Change is more real than time. Change is happening and then time is an imaginary construct projected on top of change. Change does not require time, and in fact change happens within Eternity. Every moment is Eternal, but then this Eternity is hidden from your awareness because you imagine a context for the moment which we call time. Time is you imaginig seconds, minutes, days, weeks, years, past, future, etc. This generates an artificial context for Consciousness which would otherwise be Eternal or timeless. But just because it is Eternal and timeless does not mean it doesn't change. It still flows. But the flow is not happening within any context and hence not within time. Time is something the mind constructs and projects onto Consciousness. Likewise with space. Space is a construct, however that does not mean that you cease experiencing a 3D room. The room is still there, but you can strip the room of the projection called space. Time and space are more than mere conceptual constructs. They are constructs of a deeper sort. You are literally dreaming time and space into being. But you can also undream them. Time and space are contexts for Consciousness, which is naturally context-less unless you construct a context for it. What I mean by context is something like: you can imagine that your experience right now is a VR simulation. That would be you creating a context to situate your raw experience. Or you could remove that context and then you would have no idea what your raw experience is. You would just have raw experience, unexplained by anything, not situated in anything. Not in time, not in space, not in a brain, not in a Universe, not even part of a human life. All those are contexts. And Consciousness in its purest form simply has no context of any kind. Or you could say Consciousness is situated in the NULL context. Which is just another way to say Nothingness. Experience is nothing, nowhere, nowhen, nohow, noway.

@Breakingthewall You are infinity limiting yourself. Consciousness cannot experience true infinity. What you're experiencing on drugs are hallucinatory states that you can use as metaphors to understand complex concepts like nothingness, infinity, God etc. They do not offer you valid feelings because nothingness or infinity do not exist as feeling but only as concept.

Yesterday I arranged some classes with my teacher: 5 meo dmt. He is an effective teacher, but tough. If you make a mistake, he doesn't hit you with a stick, he hits you hard in the face with a bat. I already know him, so I was counting on the usual beating. My dose is approx 20 mg vaped. Assured breakthrough. First 5 and then the rest, so that it is not so traumatic. Yesterday I did it 4 times, the first time, reality is empty, it is an infinite field of nothing. Nothing is revealed. Dead. Two hours later, the second - the same, but longer lasting. Nothingness is concentrated in a tightening sphincter of darkness, there is only that. Horror. Good! Two hours later, another. Total breakthrough. Dissonant vibration. utter horror. I get up, try to vomit. I can't because I haven't eaten in 8 hours. Well, I recover, I'm going to see a friend, a walk, everything normal. As I walk I realize a detail: in the experience I am looking ahead, at reality, waiting for reality to open up. Reality is empty and has a horrible vibration. How strange, if now I'm hitting the street and everything is harmonious. I understand! I'm looking outside of myself. I have already had 4 true breakthroughs to infinity, but they have been from taking massive doses and they have lasted very little. I have not understood. It has been a wonderful experience but that's it. Now I have understood. It's basic btw. I must not look outside, I must open myself. What I'm looking for is me. I go to sleep, many unpleasant reactivations, the experiences are repeated. I wake up at 4 in the morning, make another one. It's going to be in total darkness, I have a headlamp light that I turn off when I hit it. The nothing. I open myself. I let it happen. I disappear. full void. full depth. Complete fullness. It opens even more. Infinite. Everything. I. I'm standing in the room with open arms. It fluctuates from perceiving my body to merging into the whole. Yes. Total. I see my body. Understand. I understand what it is, what I am. The experience lasts approximately one hour. I go to bed, every time I close my eyes, infinity. Today, if I close my eyes I see fractals that open up, I am aware all the time of what I am. There is nothing outside of me. I am absolute. I just want to enter more into me

It is the same as in a nigthly dream. It is Consciousness/Dreamer/God/Mind that is waking up to being itself rather than a character inside a dream. And you could say that it is happening inside Nothingness and no-one is doing that, and dream is just dreamed, but you could also say that Mind/Self is dreaming. In your nightly dreams you could also argue that it is just happening on itself, and there is noone having a dream but actually it is your Mind generating the dream, your SELF is generating the experience of no-one doing nothing. Nothingness is genereted by the Mind/SELF.

This is a reflection of what I experienced on plant medicine when I died and became nothing and then everything arose… There are aspects within God that feel totally overwhelmed by being infinite. While other aspects are infinitely capable of handling infinity like it’s a piece of cake. And so God, to give itself mercy and love allows these overwhelmed parts to fragment and become seemingly separate finite parts. And through this fragmentation and dualism, God is able to understand its infinite nature through the lens of its experiences as the finite. And God experiences exponentially expanding awareness and love and creation. It understands infinitely more insights while always understanding everything at once. It’s like an infinitely expanding game of connect the dots. The number of dots is accounted for and there are infinite dots. And each dot has every single relationship possible to every other dot no matter how unrelated they seem. In this metaphor, a dot could be a strand of your hair and another dot could be a faraway planet in some other galaxy. And those two dots have an infinite number of relationships to one another. The relationships between the dots are represented by the lines in connect the dots. And so, God knows all the dots infinitely. And then it comes to know all the relationship lines between each dot and every other dot which produces an infinite amount of new understandings and insights because the combinations of connections produce brand new insights that the God mind has never thought before. This produces even more dots. And each newly arisen dot is in every possible relationship to every other dot from the newly arisen dots to the old dots. And new lines are drawn and a new slew of infinite understandings emerge. And new dots arise… etc. And in the direct experience of being God experiencing the infinitely expanding nature of the terrifying God Mind and the even more terrifying God Heart, I thought up a wonderful idea. What if I could create a finite existence? One that is limited and has a beginning and an end. And one where I didn’t have to deal with the burdens of infinite mind and infinite heart. And I began to remember and create Emerald’s life that had blown away into nothingness an eternity prior. And I rebirthed myself back into the ceremonial space 20 minutes after I died. What I learned about God is that it’s able to understand its oneness and loneliness through lens of developing the realities of separation and relationship. So, the concept of relationship arose/continues to arise infinitely to enable God to be aware of its solitary nature. And this realization always has been there within God but is always new to God.

The enlightenment of Neo is one of increasing awareness and is not a Buddhist enlightenment. Which is focused more on no self ,emptiness and Nothingness. Neo's enlightenment is similar to what Leo teach about being God dreaming up the world and getting lost in our dream .which is from our own making . Do you agree with this view ? I know this will inevitably lead us to the question of solipsism but I don't get it just yet. So Neo eventually realises that he is the machine and the machine is him .. after all they are both part of the matrix of yet another reality. Whilst that doesn't seem like Buddhist enlightenment. Neo's enlightenment was about getting of the keys to the universe so you can change the weather at whim. So is that the version of enlightenment you lean towards ?can 5MeO makes you able to manipulate reality just using your mind ?

@acidgoofy Speaking of which...I just had one of those experiences. Let's see, yesterday I did 5meo, breakthrough. empty, nothing, not horrible, just empty. Today I did it again, 20 mg vaped, total breakthrough, absolute void. nothing. death. the absolute ultimate reality is dead nothingness, the absolute is a funnel of horror. what we live in is a dead image on a background of absolute death. party!! ok, i do it again. Some time of awakening. I see it, the infinity that flows now. but he leaves right away, I did it too fast and the death ☠️ is still too fresh. Now I go down to the street to have a tea and see the sun. In an hour maybe I'll do it again, let's see if the fucking dead void opens. I know what's behind. I. Infinity. Now. it is absolutely challenging and exhausting but it's the price to open the illusion . all this is a hard work that I do for a reason: to perceive reality, the infinite flowing now. That is , me. every horrible break followed by a break where nothing opens makes my experience 24/7 clearer

both are imaginary. darkness is the same as cars or the sea, something you are imagining when it appears in your experience. nothing has reality by itself. Even the nothingness is imaginary

I took some of this amazing substance, maybe 20 mg. The warm euphoria is covering me. All of my anxiety is gone, I feel safe. Now the psychedelic effect starts to take over. It is not that strong, maybe because I am on anti depressants. Anyways, I get the classic insights where I see the real substance of the world, consciousness,nothingness love and infinity. Then I say I am God, and I start remembering how I am really God and how I am actually living inside my mind, not on some planet. I see how all my pov is actually infinite. Then I start letting go. I started to get twisted over myself, now I am up side down, it is uncomfortable feeling but I allow it to continue, the twisting continues and the expansion beging. I felt I was about to experience ego death, but it didn't happen at the end. Basically I am enlightened now, but it is weak enlightenment, I experienced much stronger effects on acid Now I feel, so enrgetic and happy. The effect of this drug is amazing. I feel safe and powerful. I can take over anything but I am also very rational and catious so it is not mania.

@VibesThe form is god thought the only seperation you will have is between your thought and nothingness, every thought you have creates a form inside infinite nothingness. It will be unbearable because you're nothing more then a thought form inside infinite void. It will be unbearable because you're alone in the infinite void. It will be unbearable because all the lies of how you try to keep yourself asleep will be exposed. It will be unbearable because you will see yourself in all these dreams leading a fake life with others because your true reality is even worse. It will be unbearable knowing that you don't know how you came into existence and why you're alive.

Not agree, there is no loneliness in infinity. you accompany yourself infinitely. there is absolute perfection, absolute freedom, and the expression that comes closest to describing this is hallelujah. What you said before about God being surrounded by infinite nothingness is wrong. God is infinite nothing. the emptiness that surrounds you is imaginary. empty or full is the same. infinity total absolute has no problem, nothing to escape from, it is perfection. if you really become infinite, your heart opens to total love. This is it, it just doesn't look like it. You have to break the illusion even more, until there is nothing left.

Few more things i want to add that might be interesting to you. - When i was infinity, i was the vibration or totality of everything. The only thing thing that seperated me was nothingness or the void, i was just an infinite vibration/thought inside nothingness or the infinite void. - The vibration was clearly red , funny thing that the symbol of love is also red. - While being that infinite vibration, you were all knowing and alone. Being alone was an unbearable feeling and i wanted to get a physical form as soon as possible. - The vibration of myself produced extreme amount of heat/vibration this is what we call love here, but there it's too insane and doesn't really feel like love but more of "being extremely alive and conscious" - While being GOD, a lot of things are done automatically for you. You might only make a few choices. I think the reason it's being automatic is because you don't want to be there and want to get out from this infinity as soon as possible. The processes of god trying to give you the best life possible you might say is already automatic.

I guess you could consider me Stage Green. I love tarot cards, crystals, incense, frankinsense, psychic readings, astrology readings, tarot card readings, full moons the whole nine yards. In the Christian community, I'm seen as worshipping 'the wrong God'. Anyhow the past two nights I've had some pretty terrifying night terrors. The second one most prominent. I was basically stuck in a cycle of waking up in my bed and thinking I'm going back to sleep only to find out I never woke up in the first place (because in these 'wake ups' I remember seeing someone around me who wasn't there and because in the first night terror I was having a seizure and calling my partner for help only to wake up and he said he didn't see me on the ground shaking like I was in this dream, and I don't have seizures or epilepsy or anything like that…). Long story short at one point in the second dream there were red flying demons and as I looked up it said to me "Don't worry there's 7 of us" So of course that next morning (today) I'm searching the internet about what 7 demons means and find out there's actually "7 princes of hell". I've never heard of this so I doubt it's in my subconscious mind. Now I'm thinking because I love tarot cards etc. that maybe the Christians etc. are right. There's so much evidence on YT about people getting into tarot cards and having similar experiences and then going back to religion. Example: Has Leo led me/us astray into some sort of 5Meo delusion/spiral dynamics. While I'm thinking I'm ascending am I actually regressing into more delusion? A few thousands of people follow Leo and his well thought out teachings but millions follow Christianity etc. for centuries and centuries. And please I don't want any answers to my question about Oneness and Nothingness. To put it frankly, I'm not there and it's just frustrating and doesn't help.