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What's This All About? Starting at the beginning, what is advaita , Robert? "Advaita (Sankrit) means “not two”; it is the teaching we call nonduality. We all know what duality is—the idea that there are two or more things that exist, such as me and you. Nonduality is the realization, which occurs to some people, that beyond the appearance of separation all things are actually unified in an overarching actuality. This wholeness is called the Absolute, a condition which is infinite and eternal. All supposed separate things arise within it, because all things—not being eternal or infinite—are instead impermanent. So, the primal identity of both me and you is that our source is recognized to be the Absolute. When this realization is clearly held, our sense of being a separate individual dissolves into a deeper identity of Absolute wholeness. Getting to ajata, you’ve said that a person who’s had the realization of their identity as the Absolute is best in a position to understand ajata. What is ajata? Ajata (again Sanskrit) means “no origination,” or no creation. When something is said to have had no beginning (and thus no ending), we are getting into ajata. It is pointed to in a poem by Hui Neng: “When there is nothing from the start, where can dust alight?” It is a deeper look into advaita. In advaita, as a teaching tool, we speak of the relative (me and you) and the Absolute. Everyone knows what the relative is—me and you—but what exactly do we mean when we speak of the Absolute? Whatever we say about it boils down to concepts. These are appropriate for teaching Self-realization: but what actually goes beyond the concepts? Is this where sunyata comes in? Sunyata is another Sanskrit word; it means “emptiness.” Buddha’s teachings, over his lifetime, progressed from simple to sublime: the so-called wisdom teachings are principally the Heart Sutra and the Diamond Sutra. In the Heart Sutra are the six words, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Emptiness is what ajata is talking about when it says that not anything has ever actually been created—or had existence—from the start. If not any thing has ever had actual existence, what do you have? Nothingness, or emptiness (though there would not be any thing to be empty of ). This is where ajata (there have been no real forms at all, from the beginning) and sunyata (emptiness is the only true or final condition, and even it does not “exist”) come together. In other words, as Nagarjuna has said, “Things do not arise, at any place, at any time.” Not even emptiness—which, being empty, is not a thing—exists alternative to forms: forms are emptiness; where there are no forms, emptiness is not something that “waits around.” Do forms arise in, or come from, emptiness? Forms generally are easy to understand. We are said to be forms. Because forms appear everywhere, our tendency is to think of emptiness as a form—another thing. Where the true condition is that emptiness is all there is, not anything exists as something called emptiness. In fact, since existence—“abiding” in some way—is not even in the equation, neither would the term nonexistence apply either. These—or any—designations are concepts about emptiness. But what is completely, utterly, totally empty is not the subject of description of any type. To emphasize the complete emptiness of emptiness, the writings on the subject point out that where emptiness is all that is, even emptiness would have to be empty of emptiness. So you must initially get that straight: emptiness is even empty of emptiness. Now, out of such a condition what could possibly come, or be arisen? Not anything can be generated by, or out of, 100% emptiness. Since emptiness is the “ultimate” condition, from the beginning, this is why it is said that there never has been origination or creation. So, the short answer is: forms are not forms, in reality: forms are emptiness. Forms do not exist, in truth. You said “we are forms.” Yes, to us creatures, forms do appear to exist. So, in the writings, forms are said to appear to exist, and in this case “exist” has a provisional meaning (emptiness does not appear to exist, because in truth it doesn’t). But every form is impermanent: every form is dependent on something—even forces such as “life” or “death”—for its existence. Not anything is a stand-alone, self-sufficient entity. If such a thing could come into existence, it would be permanent. It would not be subject to change: it would be immortal. So, in this sense, forms do not exist in any long-lasting, non-provisional way. This brings us to what appears: what appears to be real, or existent, is not the same as what is real or existent. A mirage appears to be real; a real source of quenching your thirst it is not. We appear (at least to ourselves) to be real. We are not: we are provisional—as are all other things—as mentioned previously. Our “existence” is in quotation marks: temporarily “real.” In fact, our true nature is emptiness—as are all things. When we as forms are not real, how real are any of the forms we perceive to be as real as we are? The world that we see only appears to be real? That is the point. In the writings, our existence, our world, is likened to a dream. You—whoever you think you are—are the dreamer of the dream. You are not outside of the dream, but within the dream. When the dream ends for you—when what you think of as “death” is present—the dream ends. “You” (which actually never was) disappear; everything you have thought existed disappears—the entire “universe,” with all its causes and forces. All forms are now purely emptiness, which they and the dreamer—despite appearances to the dreamer—have always been. Is it possible to awaken from, or to awaken to, the dream while still alive? Yes. That is what ajata and sunyata are telling us. When you recognize that this dream of life is your dream, and that dream and its dreamer have the same reality—that is, the lack of it—the “spell” has essentially been broken. What actually changes then? It’s simply a relaxed perspective on what’s apparently going on. In essence, we know that not anything is actually happening, in any unremedial or unredemptive sense. Life, suffering, joy and death appear to be happening (as the Bhagavad Gita says), cause and effect appear to be universal phenomena. But just as one does not wake up from a sleeping dream and take any of its events seriously, one no longer takes the supposed events of life as if they had any everlasting meaning. What about any meaning in understanding emptiness? That too does not matter. Whether one actually wakes up from the dream or not, the final ending of the dream for each of us will always be the same: the “presence” of sheer emptiness. None of us can ever make any “serious mistakes”: we, and all that we do or don’t do, are the same: empty of true reality or existence. I have only outlined some of the general points. If you believe that you exist and therefore have a mind, that mind will be bubbling with questions" -- Ajata Project Robert Wolfe

Also, exploring a collective consciousness is compatible with nonduality. So I can examine both. I will take a look at Jim Newman's new video and try to interpret it from a collective consciousness perspective.

Is it a mistake to describe a collective consciousness? It's a mistake if there is no such thing as a collective consciousness. But there could be! Another possible mistake is to aim for a collective consciousness instead of realizing nonduality. Even with the whole planet as a collective consciousness, that's tiny compared to nonduality. Realization of nonduality is the realization of infinity. But I still find it interesting to explore a collective consciousness as a step into the transpersonal stage.

In some ways, I can't put them into two different categories. I think my psychedelic experiences have influence my breathwork sessions. Last week after my second session, the facilitator said I was going places and asking questioning as if I had been doing breathwork for years. Most likely due to my psychedelic experience. Ime, I would say that psychedelics are more mind expanding and zoom out. I've gotten a lot of personal insights from psychedelics. And they can go into transpersonal / transhuman realms. Here, anything I write is a contextualization at a human level. Psychedelics are more expansive than anything I can write here. Psychedelics have led to an understanding of nonduality, infinity, god-consciousness, love, systemic thinking, holism, and empathic abilities. Yet at a human level, I return to a mind and body with clogged pipes. Psychedelics aren't the best personal plumber imo. Breathwork seems much more down to earth. It feels like "I" am present. Yet not the thinking-dominant me. The feeling, experience-of-now me. Breathwork is also far less intense. There is no body load and there are no anxiety issues. And it can be done every day for continuous healing, insights and restructuring of the mind. It can also be a great release of repressed emotions. During one session last week, I started screaming as loud as a possibly could. The body with rhymically breathing on it's own and I was taking in huge deep breaths so to scream louder on the out breath. My hands were tightly clenched and arms pumping with each breath. During the comedown, there was a wave of tears and relief. It felt like so much had been released. If this happened on psychedelics, it probably would have been a traumatic experience that kept me up all night. Yet with breathwork, it was an enormous release and relief. I had a peaceful night of sleep that night.

Thanks for introducing me to Robert Wolfe, he is pretty clear on what he has to say on nonduality. Although I think the experience he talks about is only the beginning of the enlightenment journey, it is a nice place of understanding from which to continue.

Okay, even if I don't feel right, this is still the absolute truth and exactly what should be, but I get your point there. And yes, right now I don't feel like I'm god, but does anyone ever get in a permanent state of being conscious that they are god? I was absolutely conscious that I was god on a 275ug ETH-LAD trip, and during this I was conscious of that for probably 6 to 8 hours where it felt like no one else besides me existed and I was the only being here. I was sure I will never forget that, but as the drug wore off, I was just really shocked but also back to normal. And you're right, I also thought about just having a bit fun during my 20s and also getting into relationships, I just hope I can find girls that interest me. On Spiral dynamics, I'm pretty much at yellow with a bit of tourquise (I took a test), so that might also be a reason why I isolate myself a lot lately, like I barely even text people. Not because of anxiety, I often just don't feel like it. My therapist suggested it might me signs of depression, but I'm certain I don't have depression, I feel alright pretty much all the time. I also hope I can travel next year (well now, this year). Disipline is the hardest part for me, it hinders me with finding my own apartment, studying for uni exams, and I'm embarressed to admit, I waste my free time watching youtube videos right now. I wanted to make somewhat abstract and crazy drawings about Nonduality and Love, I have such good pictures in mind, but I still didn't do it Anyway, thanks for your reply.

Contemplate the distinction between ‘only one can be true’ and nonduality, or, “not two”. Whatever you come up with, run it through the same ‘filter’. Spot a & b, 1 & 2. ‘Reduce’, so to speak, until there is truly not two.

For sure. Yet I try to be mindful about assuming psychosomatic causes to all physiological / neurological conditions. Telling someone “it’s all in your head” can be very empowering in one context, yet unfair in another context - and could create secondary psychosomatic conditions. Telling someone with two mutant alleles of the CFTR gene that their chest pain and breathing problems are psychosomatic and they can heal themself is unfair and unhelpful. That person is not going to have a normal chloride channel in their epithelial cells. It can put greater pressure on the person that they are creating their condition an heal themself. It would be like telling a dwarf that their height is psychosomatic. Yet there also seems to be lots of idiopathic conditions that are psychosomatic. And perhaps combinations of psychosomatic and physical. In this area, I’d say powers of self healing are underestimated. Many others have gone far deeper into this than I. Drawing cause and effect connections does seem tricky and there might not be direct cause and effect. I’d first get it checked out with a doctor to make sure it’s not an identifiable condition like an aneurism. If not, then I’d go into body wisdom - yet there are all sorts of directions. I imagine someone who has chronic headaches. This could be as simple as not drinking enough water or poor posture. Or something more complex with repressed emotions, muscle tension, energetics, diet, genetics or a combination of many things. I’d say disrupting patterns could be helpful. If the person is constantly engaged in activity that re-enforces the identity and condition, it’s going to be much more difficult to have insights and be ‘reborn. And I’ve found intellectual knowledge and awareness to be insufficient. One may go through therapy and develop an understanding of how toxic relations with blame and guilt have impacted them. This may help somewhat, yet is still at a surface level. And someone may develop an intellectual understanding of nonduality and have an awakening of no-self. Yet still carry baggage within the body. One might reach transpersonal omniscience with 5-meo and return to a body with clogged pipes. Perhaps the key is calling in a ‘plumber’. It seems we all have an inner plumber that is rarely accessed as it lies underneath the thinking ego. From a resistant ego’s perspective, this involves letting go, breaking through resistance and work. And even profound breakthroughs that take the mind-body into depths of insight, realization and awe can fade away into ingrained patterns. And I would say facilitators with embodiment and resonance can be helpful as a guide. A couple of the facilitators I do breathwork with are amazing. They can help relax the mind and body, going beneath thought control into experience and body-mind wisdom. What the facilitator said would have been intellectually discussed, had I not been beneath the hood. Even simple words infrequently spoken brought up new ‘scenery’.

@PepperBlossoms nonduality is only a belief system if you take it on faith without directly experiencing the insight. Truth can only be accessed from a state of not-knowing.

Hmm... Integral nonduality is too limited! Because I use the term transpersonal to mean a collective consciousness. So it's truly beyond personal consciousness. Integral nonduality can include that too, but it doesn't imply that, so integral nonduality generally still means only a personal consciousness even if it's a spiritually enlightened state. And who knows, spiritual teachers may be describing a collective consciousness too, such as J. Krishnamurti talking about "thinking together", but they usually keep silent about it because if they give us spiritual concepts about it the risk is that we remain trapped in personal consciousness and get stuck on the level of concepts. There are many traps in nonduality so one has to be careful. Leo talks about that in this video:

I now know how to plug my model of reality into integral nonduality. It's extremely simple, but it also gets rather technical, so instead I want to look at it from a higher level perspective. Evolution is an expansion of holons. And integral noduality includes the physical human body as a holon within the larger holon of planet Earth. And the human body and the planet are one unified whole! And my idea of the transpersonal stage is that we will include the whole planet as our identity of self and develop a collective consciousness that transcends and includes our personal consciousness.

I noticed that with integral nonduality I can also plug in the concept of evolution! That's often something I find missing in traditional nonduality teachings. And of course evolution from a nondual perspective is that all of manifestation, not just biological or technological evolution, is reality evolving as a wholeness. Actually, Ray Kurzweil's Law of Accelerating Returns fits into integral nonduality.

I found this description of integral nonduality: My version of integral nonduality is that we are consciousness and that we are also the the manifested world. So it integrates instead of separates those two. Some other ordinary nonduality teachings may also integrate the two, but I want to use the term integral since I want to include Ken Wilber's transcend and include perspective.

"The enemy is fear. We think it is hate; but it is really fear." -Mahatma Gandhi Hate comes out of fear and it requires that there is others. Fear = Duality (opposites) Love = Nonduality (no opposites)

@Forestluv The nonrecontextability is kinda what I was pointing to / what he was pointing to. @Javfly33 Because nonduality.

You're in the stage where you're trying to grasp the truth with your mind, which is inherently confusing. You must instead ground yourself in experience, become the thing you're so confused about. It also doesn't hurt to learn the finer distinctions between the relative and The Absolute. Nihilism, as a result of learning about nonduality, only happens when you're trying to appropriate The Absolute (non-duality) within the relative (duality), by trying to fit an infinite object into your finite mind. I've tried to boil down this fallacy in another thread which I hope doesn't make things more confusing :

One idea I now got is that reality is the difference between something and nothing. It's all one nonduality. I will take a look at these videos by Leo again:

One clue to the question about something rather than nothing is that Leo said that reality is a perfect symmetry. Because otherwise, if it had some shape or substance it would only have that in relation to something else! So from a nonduality perspective reality is difference and nothing. Because nothing also lacks shape and substance. I will see if I can get more clues from Leo's video, but that's a pretty interesting explanation. It's the both something and nothing aspect I haven't grasped fully yet. It's a duality which again needs to be combined into nonduality.

Sure, they are around, to various degrees. I'm not gonna waste my time guessing what other people have realized. I will just stick to what I have realized. Infinite Consciousness But it is not other than Nothingness and not-knowing. Infinite Consciousness is not a thought. Your own experience contradicts this. You can keep telling yourself that, but there are many things you are not yet conscious of. I disagree. It's not superior per se. And it's still nondual. What I say doesn't contradict nonduality. It is nonduality, just at a very high degree. Modern psychedelics like 5-MeO-DMT and DMT are new. And just because people in the past used them doesn't mean their knowledge has reached your ears. It died with them. What I say fundamentally aligns with all mystical and spiritual traditions and teachings. It's just a question of breadth and depth of understanding. I know the Nothingness/Emptiness of which these Advaita and Zen teachers speak. But there's more beyond that. Your consciousness is the final arbiter of everything. Find out for yourself what is the case. I'm just pointing out things that you might otherwise overlook.

I don't know why, but I started to understand Nonduality way before watching Leo's videos or any other videos about it, I didn't even know that term back then. But during my later teens to early 20s, I just started to see that you can't seem to put things into strict categories, but they are on a spectrum. Like in chemistry, Metal and nonmetal. I saw that there isn't a strict boundary, but instead the elements gradually go from metal to nonmetal from left to right. Or with mental illnesses, no one has either just Depression or not, or ADHD or not, or OCD or not, or Autism or not (not really a mental illness). I just started to see how everything bleeds into each other. Then at about 21 I started using drugs (not just psychedelics, so I'll keep it short), not for Nonduality, but just because I was curious. But I surprisingly got insights from them, stimulants often made me contemplate things, where at some point I came to the conclusion that wishing or imagining for something to be different makes no sense, because everything just is the was it is, and it can't be any other was. During my dissociative drug abuse I became completely aware that I have no free will as this ego, I'm (my ego self) is just a part of the whole universe, which happens in a continious flow. You can't blame anyone including yourself, it completely destroyed the boundary between what I'm responsible for and what others are responsible for. It went so far that I just became completely aware all language, distinctions, basically our whole systeme in which we operate is a complete illusion, it completely breaks down when you investigate it deep enough, I'm aware that the words I'm typing here are also just nonsense which can only work within dualities. But this just made me feel very helpless, since I knew our whole thought systemes and languages are complete illusions, but we still have to use them. I couldn't say anymore what is my fault and what are other peoples faults. Doing something "good" didn't make sense anymore because that's also an illusion. However, I had a lot of puzzle pieces already, and finding Leo's videos about Nonduality helped me piece many of them together, like that there is an Absolute. love + hate = Love, good + bad = Good, free will + determinism = Will. But some things I still don't understand, besides deconstructing my ego to persue enlightenment, what should I do with that? How should I do good when everything is ultimately Good? I don't wanna use nonduality as an excuse to do "evil" things, but no matter what I will do, even if I go on the streets and shoot up Heroin, it is ultimately Good, since it's gods Will for the purpose to maximize Love. So this still makes me confused, and I don't know what to do about that. Thank you for reading this, I'd love to hear your opinions or suggestions.

To break through into the transpersonal stage may require a radically different approach than the usual spiritual practices. Nonduality teachings often have a different approach, and especially Jim Newman who I believe "learned" it from Tony Parsons, has a radical and nihilistic-seeming nonduality approach presented in this video:

Centering Prayer is more a meditation practice than it is a Prayer. It’s a practice which helps one to cultivate non conceptual awareness. Cynthia Bourgeault claims that the salvation Jesus taught was in fact the perception of nonduality--and she's becoming famous for how she backs up this claim quite reasonably, relying on the Bible, church fathers, and especially the Christian contemplative tradition.The notion of nondual Christianity doesn't originate with her, of course, but she's prominent as one of the more articulate voices making people aware of it today. In this new book, she teaches the basics of Centering Prayer as a way to the perception of noduality. It thus will go a bit deeper theoretically/theologically than the other numerous Centering Prayer books, while still serving as a basic introduction. And in the fascinating third part of the book, she analyzes the Christian mystical classic Cloud of Unknowing , to find in it a model for living with nondual consicousness.

I don't think any guru would say something like that. They might say "you suffer because you are under illusion (attachment, ego, etc.)", but suffering itself is definitely real and not an illusion. In fact the Buddha said "life is suffering" as his opening statement, so.. Suffering is not an illusion. Maybe it is in the final analysis, but the illusion is real and so the consequences are real in a certain sense, too. Not if one has truly understood nonduality. You don't walk around seeing all the suffering in the world and brush it off, saying "oh that's nice, that's good, nobody's suffering". Quite the opposite is true - you walk around seeing all the suffering, saying: "oh that fact is not good - it's suffering and it's real despite the fact that it is GOOD". Of course it is GOOD. But its suffering and suffering is real to those who suffer. The illusion is also Real, that is nonduality. Maya and Brahman are identical and so all the suffering is just as real as Brahman. If someone hears about Zen for the first time, they might think something like "oh well, apparently I'm the Buddha anyway and so I can do whatever I want to do! Time to wear filthy clothes, steal things, be selfish, be violent, I'm the Buddha, I'm enlightened, I'm God, I can do as I goddamn please!" - but that only shows, that one hasn't yet truly understood, because if you did understand and you really knew it to be true, you wouldn't have to say or do it! @Dodo But I understand the predicament. Depends on the person I guess. How much guilt is involved? You said she was like a mother figure, so maybe one feels guilty towards her and thinks that it is your duty to suffer, in order to... what - expiate? Would you feel guilty if you wouldn't take away her suffering? Observe this guilt, what is it? It also selfishness. So what are you to do? - Not to help is selfish and you feel guilty because of it. - To "help" doesn't happen out of love but out of the selfish desire to get rid of you guilt by expiating! So you always end up being selfish. And then you feel guilty for that. It's a perfect trap. All you can do is realize that the trap isn't real and that there's nobody trapped - and then what? Well then you realize that you can't do anything wrong. And so this question about whether to help this poor person or not has no right nor wrong answer.

..or in other words, here's a problem which you cannot solve simply by being present to the moment I want to present to you here something which happened to me in alternate reality (it definitely happened within consciousness and my awareness at least) which felt absolutely as real as me typing right now. Imagine there is a woman (now every representation here was probably tailored to me and my experience so for another it might be a different entity/representation and not a woman, but the so the story went) who is suffering greatly - being raped and tortured, in the middle of the forces of darkness and the only way to save her is to go in her place and be tortured so that she can be free. She was like a very close mother figure kind of woman and she was strong in being able to take the suffering, thats how it felt, but you want her to be free and happy. Here's the deal tho, in order for her to be free, you have to go in her place and be tortured. True love is selfless, but to what extent, if you are honest right now, would you swap and feel extreme pain for Her in order to save Her? Now what happened in my hallucination or experience, that I tried to do it, but as soon as the pain and suffering came, I was so afraid!! I mean the pain is so real, its so real but no guru is talking about it, they all say "suffering is an illusion" but they might not know something. I was moving in different dimensions and being chased to be tortured, but I was so afraid of the pain I kept running and I guess when they caught me and the pain went too much I died to that reality and went to another, in which something else happens... And it was God that was chasing me but I was trying to outmanoeuvre, to outrun, being scared of what I had signed up for trying to be selfless. But God was within me and I felt my heart and life as myself threatened, I felt so vulnerable, God could destroy me as he created me. Here I am talking about my normal human self, which I was throughout that whole thing. Then She said "Let him sleep" she was crying to let me back to sleep because She was so protective of me, she would do anything. She would actually take the pain that I was running from. And how quickly did I run, it felt like I am running from the pain that I actually did deserve. Like a mother taking the hit for her son from an abusive father. That's how it felt. Truly there are things to fear in this reality, I do not think its wise to say that all is well. That's like poking the hornet nest or like disregarding possible extreme pain that actually exists and is super real if you've experienced something like that. Its more real than sitting on a cushion and feeling empty of content. When you are in that place, you wont be able to find the space to meditate, because you would be chased by someone and you would need to actually play the game and fight for the Good and for peace, not just saying its all good already. Nonduality is like a permission slip for evil, you can normalise it in that way by saying its all good, all one. Yes it is One, but it is also many. So there might be a spiritual battle going on and we are asleep to that and just looking after our own egoic enlightenment where we feel great here and now, but not acknowledging there might be Pure Evil lurking somewhere that is NOT KNOWN to others. That is the most horrific thing, someone right now could be suffering greatly in the real world as well from the hands of pure evil and nobody BUT GOD would know about it. I guess I had to get that out of my chest. I wish to bring the light of love in the corners of reality where things are hidden and there is pain right now and nobody knows about it and nobody is trying to help. May God help those who are forgotten, weak and unjustly hurt. May God bless all who are not wicked. I dont know if anyone will read this cause it became quite lengthy.. So what would you do, would you suffer greatly for someone you love or someone who has decided to suffer greatly for you? Like a sinister game, a nightmare...

The neti neti method might be useful as a stepping stone towards nonduality, but notice that's it only goes half the way. Why? Because when we say "not that" about anything, that's a duality perspective. The nondual perspective includes everything. That of course means that it even includes the neti neti method but it's more than that. It's a totality perspective. So the neti neti method should only be used as a stepping stone or it becomes a duality trap.