Search the Community

You are still missing what I'm saying. Leo isn't posting anything. Life is. Life is at play posting through Leo's avatar. Life is energy. Energy is in motion. It is typing happening. Posts happening. The Absolute is posting and typing. It is alive and doesn't have a reason to not appear as it does. You just gave a reason why Leo shouldn't be posting and thats because there are no others so what's the point. The Absolute is you saying this, the Absolute is me responding and the Absolute is Leo posting. It makes no sense to the individual's human thinking processes because it doesn't line up with how it thinks things should be. That's also the Absolute thinking that. Thinking is happening but by no one. Just mouths moving, fingers typing, sense making happening. Appearing as humans and typing and posts and trying to make sense of itself. It is so free it can do that because it's unlimited, impersonal, absolute, and everything with no reason or purpose, it just is. Life goes on. It's illogical.

This is one of the clearest, deepest buy playful, serious but joyful posts you´ve ever written in this forum, and you´ve written quite a lot of clear, deep, playful, serious, joyful stuff. Yes, the harder the anchor in/as the Absolute, the freer the individual relative perspective and smaller the sense of urgency for new relative body-mind perspectives. That is the proper Hierarchy of Reality. As John Wren Lewis implied in the most herculean feat in the History of Mysticism, that of resuming that Hierarchy in two words, "Eternity John-ning" (just substitute "John" with any particular avatar the Absolute emanates in a particular incarnation), it only takes turning "John", or any other apparently solid entity, into a gerund (that is, an "action"), substracting with this simple trick ontology and Identity from the particular avatar (human or not) which most take themselves to be, and placing them into the Impersonal Absolute.

There are degrees to the extent to which you understand something, that's for sure. But there are no degrees to being happy. I'm not sure how to explain this, yet. But definitely, either you're happy or you're not. This is definitely my position which you so strongly contradict (I'm okay with that, btw). The reason why I say that either you're happy or you're not is because, in truth, things don't make you happy. Happiness comes from within, just as hatred comes from within. Hatred is the polar opposite of happiness, btw. And it is also a form of resistance. Yes, this is true. What I'm saying does not suggest anything otherwise from what you say here. Is it broad? All that I'm saying is that all of this suffering, whether conscious or unconscious, is caused by one's own resistance of consciousness itself. This resistance can be in the form of a suppressed memory in which it is still you who is suppressing the memory. It could be in the form of a projection, the form of a defence mechanism, the form of a bad habit like smoking or doing drugs. Really there are many forms of resistance. However, one truth remains. It is you, no one else and nothing external to you or out of your control, who are doing the resisting. Even if your trauma is straight up from your birth, which is highly unlike because you're not yet developed cognitively yet at that stage, but even if that happens to be the case. Should there be resistance from such a trauma, that resistance would still come from you. And, it would still (equally) be the resistance of consciousness. Hence, the struggle is with consciousness. Perhaps not bliss, but definitely happiness. Once something is understood, perhaps something like a wild animal or a criminal or some sort of demonic entity (absolutely whatever) even pain, once it is understood due to awareness, it is impossible to hate it. Why? The mere act of understanding something is connecting to that something in a way that is both transpersonal and impersonal. It has nothing to do with you as an individual, but has everything to do with consciousness. You will be happy even with your scar because you understand that the attack, the violation, or mistreatment you encountered was not personal, not at all. It is exactly enough. Exactly. And if your basic needs are being met, such as the nutrition, the shelter, just the basic stuff, then your struggle with consciousness comes from your own inner resistance. There is a matter that you are resisting. By the way, in case I've still not made it clear. In life, as we call it, there is no choice but consciousness. Consciousness is direct experience. Whatever it is that you're trying so hard not to experience, you will experience it – one way or the other.

Very good. Your post is probably so "way out" that it didn't receive much response, although it being the most interesting one since its posting. Actually, "You" didn't loose "it". Just some clouds appeared that made what you called "deep sleep" a bit harder to directly "perceive/realize" beyond the clouds. Its always there. YOU are that Infinite Being containing the show of duality and nonduality, awakening and sleeping. That impersonal Infinite Reality beyond the "event-horizon" which is so infinite that no "movement" of focus/mind/thought/appearance/perception/I,me,mine-arising can ever get "there". And That Infinite Reality beyond this "event horizon" where small you "can't go" is constant and changeless. That contains all the states of illusion and realizing/awakening, which roll "before"/"within" its Infinite Being. THAT "you" can never loose. Or gain. THAT never changes, because change is contained in it, its expression or modulation. And THAT is absolute freedom & love & bliss. Infinite Liberation. Who are you again? Did you EVER loose yourself (really)?

Did I ever write that Awakened impersonal Nondual states are not beneficial (and necessary) for realizing True Infinite Being? I wrote that dozen of times. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Awakened&author=Water by the River

I would say it’s infinitely impersonal. It’s so impersonal that it’s literally nothing

yes, I perceive everything as one, and same: I perceive the total depth of existence, the infinity, a perceiver implies a perception. I cannot say: I am enlightened, but I have accessed states of total openness in which there is no perceiver, there is total amplitude. It is very subtle to arrive at this because the slightest movement of the mind bifurcates it. As you say, it is completely impersonal since there is no perceiver, or the perceiver is the perception . My previous definition maybe was not exact. Reality perceiving itself implies subject. There is no subject, there is total existence, it is not thinkable, it is attainable, and quite difficult btw, just some seconds . But in other hand, once it happened, seems that it's always in back ground

These are good pointers which you mention. "I perceive everything as one" is already one I to many. As strange as that sounds. The "I perceiving" is just more clusters of arising sensations taking ownership of another cluster of sensations/understandings of "everything is one". All appearance, all temporary, all illusion, all happening in Infinite Being. Yet, the impersonal Vastness of Infinite Reality/Consciousness can understand itself. But impersonal. And then, "it" just sees it was always what "it" is (Infinite Being), giving rise to illusions within itself, lending "its" Infinite Consciousness to a mirage/illusion, even if already cosplaying an "I perceive everything as one". Enlightenment is knowing what one truly is, and what Infinite Reality/Being is. And that is shockingly impersonal. Yet, it can't be any different. "Anything" else would be mortal, finite and changing. Truly formless Infinite Being, eternal always here, One without a second.

Nonduality doesn't mean Enlightenment. For Enlightenment to happen, Nonduality (or nondual states) have to ripen normally for a looooong time, for most (according to the traditions 100s to 1000s of hours), to get rid off the "Nondual-Realizer"-identity-arisings towards Impersonal Infinite Nondual Being/Infinite Consciousness without any remaining filter/lense/identity. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonduality&author=Water by the River Leo doesn't differentiate between Nonduality and Enlightenment (although most sophisticated meditation traditions do, pretty much all of the more sophisticated Budhdist traditions like Mahamudra, Dzogchen and also Zen - Kensho vs. Enlightenment. A Kensho IS nondual but a looong way from Enlightenment), nor seem to care about the difference. His God-Realization is in between mere Nonduality with a nondual-Realizer-Identity and True Enlightenment, see link above. Since he can't imagine Enlightenment in any way (if he could he would be enlightened), he happily just throws the baby (Enlightenment) out with the bathwater (Nonduality) and rejoices with "God-Realization". Strange that the God-Realization seems to suck annoyingly often when sobre... but never mind, no problem, no problemo, pas de problème... that Enlightenment is the end of suffering is bullshit anyway, because... hey... it would mean I gotta practice and am not the most you know what. @BlessedLion Seems you have to be happy with the one-liner or two-liner answers. Putting Nonduality and Buddhism and Enlightenment together in one box and dismissing all of it is in my view an unsophisticated and reductionistic perspective. But apparently useful for some... Selling "the flair of spiritual still dark ages by the River"

Leo the Blackpiller. On a project called "Actualized". A drama in in five acts. Oh my. Act 1: Narrator: What in my view is genetics/Karma is being psychic, seeing Auras, subtle beings, OBEs, and all that stuff. That can't be trained by normies. One either has it or not. Buuuuut training to rest in nondual awakened states? No. Many had to train a lot to get there (called meditation). Sure, some woke up spontaneously. It is called True Being. Every being has it, or better IS it. There are proven ways to access and stabilize that. Meditation for example. Not for every Karma-variant "delivered", but for many achieveable if training in earnest. Yours truly for sure was not extraordinarily gifted and needed over 10 years to get anywhere near anything nondual. But was lucky using a meditation system that got pleasurable quite soon and enabled racking up the 1000s of hours of cutting off the "I/me/mine-bla-bla" sufficiently (many of that in daily life) to get anywhere near awakened nondual impersonal states. Act 2: Narrator: What can be heard in the last weeks from our respected host are frequent expression of suffering, and also being annoyed by being human. If that attitude is not a dissociation (sick form of non-growth/aborted transcendence) and not an differentiation & integration (healthy form of growth/transcendence in Wilber speech), I don't know what is. Wilber, The Religion of the Future. All ways how transcendence/growth can go wrong, and how one can get addicted to 7th haven realms, and how to avoid and correct these, laid on a platter. And now limiting believes and justifications why one can not practice letting go of the separate-self and shutting it off (aka meditation), because... rationalizations like genetics, prodigies, creativity and artistic and other stuff instead of boring meditation and annoying and what not. https://www.actualized.org/insights/profound-quotes-032 https://www.actualized.org/insights/werewolf-boy Leo Gura: "Exceptionally spiritually gifted people are born just like this werewolf boy. And no amount of spiritual practice will give you their abilities. But because all that happens on the inside, people do not see it. So they end up spending their lives trying to emulate someone who is a genetic freak, and of course they end up disappoint with their lack of results or unhappiness in life. Because a werewolf boy has to live differently than normies. And if you as a normie try to live like werewolf boy, you will not be happy because it is not the right fit. This is why above all else in this work you must be true to yourself, to your genetics. Your destiny is in your genetics. But you need to discover what that means, which is no trivial matter." Narrator: Got blackpilled? Got blackpilled! Act 3: Al Swearengen: "That's what life is one vile task after another. Don't get aggravated then the enemy has you by the short hairs." . WbtR: Sorry my friend. https://actualized.org/insights/profound-quotes-032 Narrator: Profound indeed. The Buddha not-en-vogue-long-dead-probably-never-historicaly-existing-gentleman called it dukha. Unsatisfying. A closet-Buddhist in the making? And so much happiness & compassion that there are even dreams of nondual crocodiles biting fellow expressions of his True Infinite Being. Ken Wilber: "Ken Wilber: The downside comes with people that only use psychedelics or drugs and I found that over the years they just become mean. It's somehow just kind of closes them down it's like you keep doing it and you keep doing it you keep doing it it doesn't quite cause the transformation. It can cause a peak experience but generally not a transformative experience and some people like David Deida will say that in order for altered changes of state to contribute to transformation a permanent transformation it has to be basically endogenous and not a exogenous it has to be has your own source People who do that (Psychedelics) the people that do use both (Meditation and Psychedelics) and use it as a sacrament i think an enormous bit out of it." Posted over a year ago: Act 4: Narrator: So, my proposal would be either to rebrand the thing as spiritual-blackpilled.org instead of actualized.org. Or, as alternative, at least not giving the poor folks consuming all of that uncritically limiting believes just because one highflyer got hung up in the seventh-heaventh-with-you-know-what-substances without a way of getting to that blissful estate sobre and in daily life. Leo, sorry for the rant. I wish you really the best, but that self-defeating blackpilling trend (probably generated by severly missing seaventh-heaventh-bliss - which I can understand), pushing it mostly on genetics and prodigy and what not (I would call that at least a bit "Karma" and not only genetics )... I have to testify against it, because for many that "could make it" that constitutes black-pilling & installing limitting believes. And even if a being does not reach Enlightenment in this life, the soul (relative manifestation, but still appearing/same "reality" as everthing else, lasting longer than one life) will carry the transcendence-propensity generated by simply witnessing the mindstream (aka meditation). Same with compassion. Act 5: WbtR: Actualized? Actualized! Selling the drama (5 acts) "Actualized! by the River & throwing the backpills back into the River where the came from" Music while lowering the curtain:

"It's especially confusing that Artem claims that even consciousness/infinity are still levels of dreaming and not the final enlightenment, while you point to 'empty pure impersonal infinite consciousness' as the final abode in the process of enlightenment." The magic word is impersonal. Meaning no subtle "lense of perception" and any subtle experiencer left, or in other words subtle dualities/lenses arising and making the infinite field not fully syncing up in its true nondual nature. When there is still an experiencer OF consciousness/infinity, like in there is still a (often extremly subtle and impossible to spot before fulling crossing over) experiencer too much. A subtle duality preventing the full realization of ones True Identity, but doing a deep dive in its manifestation. The whole Totality/Reality experiencing itself without an experiencer is the "true state of things", and "It" doesn't need any fireworks to understand its essence. The problem is, that the meaning of that only becomes clear when it has happened, and it can not be fully anticipated or understood in any way before that happens. This last shift is impossible to understand or anticipate in any way before it happens. Even Norquist descriptions are just a preview. And Artem description of the hairless monkey is not the style I would use. But it is a valid desciption in how it emphasizes the point of the experiencer vanishing in the infinite totality of Reality itself, no longer having special importance (like a realizer of infinite consciousness) compared to the Totality that one truly is, becoming a total normie living ones life (which then lives itself without contraction, fear and suffering. Wonderful.). I prefer "empty pure impersonal infinite consciousness/Being/Reality", because hairless monkey can be misunderstood easily. And off-topic, one can be enlightened and still totally wrong on the relative level. Zen at War, Brian Daizen Victoria. Not to even talk about personality, which can have quite a "hang-over". Selling Water by the River

The notion I am attached to is the idea that I can make things up and create new unique art from nothing, being individually responsible. But that doesn't really make sense, ideas occur within me but the only ones I can follow and expand are the ones I already have witnessed. Ideas pop into existence, I set a focus, but the insight simply appears, the process feels impersonal and no different from outside inspiration. We collect and shuffle patterns rearranging them or gaining insights based on intuition, synergy of concepts and what's in-between the lines. One might say god is creative, but same thing there, everything is a part of god, god explores itself and can see, observe, organize patterns. But going for Non-Duality everything just exists and flows through awareness, morphing in form and spawning insights. I can take a bunch of colors and rearrange some lines and pick up neat patterns and forms I remember and create a new context. None of the elements are original, they are observations or meta-models and I can relate those too, creating new configurations. I can use the Buddhi (Intellect) to cut and separate reality into parts and then arrange them, there is a lot of leeway. But essentially, I'm taking advantage of a huge database of forms and reshuffling them into new scenarios. But maybe that ability itself is creativity, though it might be dictated by desires which clashes with determinism, but that depends on the self. If there is no self, just an experience occurring, there's still a sense of self and if that is deconstructed, there is no self but also no problem. Maybe creativity is the foundation of reality, concepts merging with other concepts creating gestalts that create other gestalts and grow. Arising self-organizing lifeforms, complex self-witnessing structures, created and driven by creativity to create new creativity through being. Which would make us the expression, observer and agent of creativity, a wave in the ocean, all concepts, all imagination, all creativity.

@Water by the River It's interesting that you bring up Artem. I'll post below one of his main thesis on levels of enlightenment. Can you elaborate where your and his views are the same and where they differ? It's especially confusing that Artem claims that even consciousness/infinity are still levels of dreaming and not the final enlightenment, while you point to 'empty pure impersonal infinite consciousness' as the final abode in the process of enlightenment. From Artem's Quora post: https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-levels-of-enlightenment/answer/Artem-Boytsov "There are no levels of enlightenment, but there are levels of dreaming, and every level has its own layer of bondage, which you progressively shed as you move towards the center: On the outer level of dreaming, you are a person in the body, looking outside of the body into the physical world and relating to other persons. You are a slave of society. On a deeper level of dreaming, you are a soul occupying the body and you relate to other souls on an energetic level. You are a slave of your emotional energy. On a deeper still level of dreaming, you are consciousness/God, a being of pure compassion and unconditional love, you are everything and everyone, the deepest form of love. You are a slave of love. On the deepest level of dreaming, you are Brahman, the totality of all existence, infinity beyond manifest, you are truly nothing, eternity, the deepest form of peace. You are a slave of death. When all dreaming ceases, you are just a hairless monkey walking on a ball of rock, eating, pooping, living and not imagining things that are not there. You are now free. Each level of the dream has its own amount of fun and beauty, and very few people go all the way, because each level is covered by its own layer of suffering. Embodiment of unconditional love is extremely fun and very rewarding. Being mentally dead while your body is alive is very peaceful, very restful, very blissful, that’s Buddhahood. When you’re dreaming on the outer layers, the inner layers are there, too, they’re just in your unconscious. As you go from the outer layers towards the center, the dreaming becomes more and more subtle, you become progressively more free. The last level, the Brahmanic level, is the most subtle. It’s almost no dreaming at all. Most people who are awake have awakened from one level of dreaming into a deeper level of dreaming. So their dreaming became a little bit more lucid. “It’s all a dream” as they say. Enlightenment is not awakening into your dream, it is awakening from your dream, entirely. It’s when all dreaming ceases and the mind doesn’t dream anymore."

It is something totally simple, it is realizing what you are. What you are is not definable, since it is the reality, and reality is the absence of limits. It is not realizing the fact that you are infinite, but what infinite is, what it has always been and will always be. The infinite, as is obvious, takes infinite forms, it cannot not do so, since if it did not, it would be finite. What we are right now is one of those forms, so enlightenment is realizing what you are by going through the form, which is a relative, cyclical appearance of the infinite. Enlightenment is that the infinite perceives itself through the form, and with this it stops being a prisoner of the form and frees itself. The infinite is conscious and total, although impersonal, since it does not have a center of perception, so it is difficult to let go of the self, the center, so that the infinite perceives itself without any obstacle. If there is any obstacle, perception will be distorted and deceptive, infinity will be perceived as form, god, whatever. Infinity is nothing and is the potential of everything, and is perfect, complete and total. The word enlightenment evokes the light that the opening of the structure of form allows you to flood the dimension of existence that you are right now. You can call this light love or whatever

ok, here my Olaf-version-take: "The delusion is that there are humans who are unenlightened. " There appear Olafs who have appearances of thinking/believing they are separate Olafs, so one could say there are unenlightened Olafs. But since there is only the Infinite Ocean freezing to an imagined Olaf, watching its own substance while doing so in a nondual way, actually there is no (unenlightened) Olaf. It just appears to be so. Actually, there are just some perspectives of Infinite Being ("humans" or Olafs) that have I-thougt/I-feeling-arisings (which makes them believe to be a human/Olaf) in their perspective/mindstream, while forgetting in real-time ("in-space") all other perspectives appearing in their Infinite Being. While being also these perspectives at the same time. Indras Infinite Net of Olaf-perspectives. And then one could have Olafs observing or contemplating all of that. But since there are no actual Olafs, but only the Infinite Ocean, there is in reality no Olaf observing unenlightened Olafs. Only the Infinite Ocean having fooling-itself-thought-feelings-arisings appearing in its Infinite Being. So its basically appearing Olafs talking to themselves, while there is only one Infinite Being, splicing itself up in infinite perspectives. The Infinite Ocean modulating itself as "freezing Olaf-appearances" and wondering what it really is. And what those other Olafs are. And for an Olaf to verify that for itself beyond any doubt, an Olaf normally need considerable time in nondual impersonal awakened states. Selling Olaf-ISM by the River

To give a preview on these facets of True Being. To know these states are real. Awakened (impersonal, not personal, no empty witness or duality of any kind left), Nondual (boundless and infinite field/vastness, Unity, Oneness) and Groundless (mere appearance, really just mere appearance or hologram-like character of the world hovering in Infinite limitless Nothingness, that behind your body), no external world if it is not imagined. Eternal and timeless and absolutely fundamental, since its boundless and can't go anywhere else, it is more fundamental than time in mathematical language. And how one imagines past &future&"background-fairy-tale-of-the-separate-body-mind" real time right now. Just more appearances/modulations appearing in the Infinite vastness/Infinite Being. Infinite and spaceless (since space is literally imagined in it, and with that any 3-,4-, or n-dimensional space, be it euclidian, non-euclidian, or whatever of the infinity of possibilities) Blissfull and salvation, since the separate-self-contraction suffering/bad-feelings and thoughts can get cut off/transcended in real-time by just looking into their nature. They appear & literally "move" within True Infinite Being, as its "modulations". Without psychedelics, one needs a looong time of this here: That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics. And with psychedelics, one still needs to do this until the very end. Else the whole elephant won't show itself. But at least one knows then that there is an elephant. Psychedelic Pro: Prooves that nondual states are not mere fantasy, and gives nice awakened states on which to cross-check if ones meditation-path is moving one there. And of course explore the Multiverse with its myriad of Realms and Beings, from Angels and Demons to ET&Aliens. And understand the mechanisms of manifestation/appearance (Chris Bache, Stan Grof, Rick Strassmann) for example). Psychedelic Contra: Doesn't deliver transcending ones personality/ego fully. This here: "That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics." So we get God-realized Egos. Not stable realization. A mighty trap. Somebody ought to make a video including that trap also. Committing blasphemy against the holy Liturgy of the church of god-realize-your-ego and then getting drowned in the River by an Infinity of Gods.

God Realization from what I have seen is just understanding more than the usual psychedelic Awakening (where one just projects an ego in nondual unity on the visual field or Nothingness or whatever). Like, how one imagines the past real time right now (which one does, and it doesn't exist anywhere else). And how one imagines everything else just to fool oneself (like parents, job, being a person,...). The problem with God Realization is: There remains a subtle "realizer" of all of that. Very subtle, very hard to transcend, since this is just a totally empty "Individuality". That is the last hindrance to Enlightenment, which then is therefor also stable if that element is seen through. Wilber calls it Empty Witness (see for example Religion of the Future). But not fully transparent and fully boundless nondual without individuality. And that is why God Realization is not stable sobre. These remaining separate-self elements kill the Awakened nondual states after the trip. In Enlightenment, all of that is totally obvious, and since these components are in place, or rather there illusion-counter-components (like self-existing personality, space, time, outer world, duality/out-thereness) are seen through in real time. Below, the outcome first, and then which kind of illusion-part of the separte-self structure it shuts off. Awakened (impersonal, not personal, no empty witness or duality of any kind left), Nondual (boundless and infinite field/vastness, Unity, Oneness) and Groundless (mere appearance, really just mere appearance or hologram-like character of the world hovering in Infinite limitless Nothingness, that behind your body), no external world if it is not imagined. Eternal and timeless and absolutely fundamental, since its boundless and can't go anywhere else, it is more fundamental than time in mathematical language. And how one imagines past &future&"background-fairy-tale-of-the-separate-body-mind" real time right now. Just more appearances/modulations appearing in the Infinite vastness/Infinite Being. Infinite and spaceless (since space is literally imagined in it, and with that any 3-,4-, or n-dimensional space, be it euclidian, non-euclidian, or whatever of the infinity of possibilities) Blissfull and salvation, since the separate-self-contraction suffering/bad-feelings and thoughts can get cut off/transcended in real-time by just looking into their nature. They appear & literally "move" within True Infinite Being, as its "modulations". That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics. And all of these states and/or insights above one can happpen one at a time, or two, or three combined... Any combination possible, and that creates the myriad of half-baked and different Awakening & (smaller) Enlightenment-descriptions ("Kenshos in Zen"). Ever heard some people have new Awakenings all the time? That is that. For truly awakening to what one truly is, beyond any doubt, one needs all of them. When that Waking Up happens, it is definitive. Because it kills the former illusion of being a separate-anything. That can never be believed again. It is dead. It always ever was an illusion. Even the God-realized ego/separate-self. All a dream. There was never anything else than the Infinite Ocean of Being, formerly with ignorance and illusion arising within it, and now back to the real state of "things", the ignorance no longer arising. Basically, one gets all facets of the Infinite Absolute True Being all at once, and once this happens Infinite Being is totally obvious. It is You. All of it. And can't get more Infinite than Infinite and more eternal than eternal, that is why it is final. The rest is just more appearance IN You (or consciousness OF x, man, woman, Alien, Alien n+1,...). Interesting for sure, but not so urgent. Got Eternity and Infinity to explore, remember? And even if getting distracted by the Lila-show for a moment, "it" is "just there", by just reaching out and killing the illusion-aspect that got re-established by just looking into its nature and just finding the Infinite Ocean of Awareness-Being. Your True Self. So in summary, God-Realization as used here, is a step in the right direction, but it is still not true Enlightenment. Of course, what is sold as Enlightenment is in 80%-90%+ cases not Enlightenment as waking up out of the dream, but just some nondual "Awakening". A dual dream has become a nondual dreaming. Dreaming nonetheless. What Leo calls (correctly) nondual BS. Zen differentiates between Enlightenments (Kenshos), and fully waking up (calling that Great Enlightenment). Only in the latter one there is waking up from the dream. With the former one, a nondual, or god-realized, or whatever ego/separate-self continues dreaming its nondual dream... Lovely place to be at, but still a dream So God Realization is between the naive nondual-Enlightenments with a dreamer still well and alive dreaming nondual-unity-dream, and true waking-up Enlightenment is beyond God Realization, since even the "subtle" one having the God-Realization is seen through as more dreaming. And one can wake up only once, then any separate-anything illusion is ruined for good. That illusions never recovers its fully. And then, one can go still playing with the Aliens for ever new insights, if one is so inclined... So it is tricky, because Leo basically has a Pre-Trans-Confusion in Wilbers lingo. Sorry Leo, but needs to be said. God-Realization is "higher" than a standard nondual-awakening (Nondual Unity Awakening of ego still believing its background story like parents, world, others). These are the Nonduality or Enlightenment-Fundamentalists he criticizes. but it is lower than True Enlightenment, since the final individuality/separate-self/God-realized-ego is not seen through. And once the psychedelic state delivering most of the items listed above wears off, this remaining not seen-through-in-real-time individuality/separte-self/ego kills the awakened state. and since it is all very subtle and impossible to fully understand without having had these awakened states, it is also IMPOSSIBLE to understand True Enlightenment from the perspective of God-Realization before it truly happens (else, one would be already fully enlightened when having seen through the last subtle elements of separation/individuality), Water by the River recommends the age-old recipe of Matthew 7:15-20 "You Will Know Them by Their Fruits". And the proof for that is: Psychedelic Godrealization doesn't last. When the psychedlic wears off, the filters/lenses/contraction of the remaining separate self/ego kick back in, and bye bye awakened nondual states (the ones listed above). And even during "God-Realization", the remaining individual projects itself mightily on all these insights. And then we get Infinity of Gods and stuff not for the faint-of-hearted as compensation. While there is only one Being/Reality, we now have an Infinity of "god-realized" egos. Basically, God-Realization never gets rid of the Individuality/Separation fully, there is always a subtle "someone" having all these realizations. Selling "going all the way" by the River PS: Roger Thisdells version of that. vs. Even the God-realized ones need to fully jump into the mixer Void PS PS: https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?q="God Realization"&author=Water by the River&sortby=relevancy

Zen is a form of Mahayana Buddhism. Vajrayana is Tantric Buddhism, which has Mahayana at its base. Mahayana = Nondual Enlightenment to Infinite Impersonal Being WHILE appearances/the world occurs as summum bonum. Philosophical base is middle way/Nagarjuna, or Infinite Being can never be hinted at as object of any kind. Hinayana (earliest buddhism): Cessation as goal, mainly via the concentrative Jhanas. Nirvikalpa. Blank out. Nothingness. But coming out of it, not necessarily being aware that the same Nothingness is also the substance/Infinite Reality of everything else. That would be the Nondual Enlightenment of Mahayana. Hinayana doesn't exist anymore, but Theravada as successor-form. Theravada doesn't evolve from Mahayana but from Hinayana. For example, forms of Thai Buddhism, forest tradition, Ingram, Frank Yang, Rob Burbea and so on are basically Theravada-based or influenced. Although nowadays Theravada also can have Nondual Enlightenment as goal, and not just cessation/Jhanas (as a general statement, especially with the latter persons mentioned. Ingram has a nice chapter on map-failure in his "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha". In Zen/Vajrayana/Mahamudra/Dzogchen I guess the map wouldn't have failed so drastically, and that is why he added meditation techniques from there also. Same with Frank Yang and Rob Burbea. The equation of cessation=Enlightenment got updated in later Buddhism pretty fast. The same Nothingness experienced in cessation (as, um, NOTHING-ness) can also be experienced WHILE appearances arise, that is (true) Nondual Enlightenment (Nothing-ness+Something) when it is impersonal Infinite Being with no other and not just merging in nondual Unity of a still-alive-though-thinned out separate self). Early Hinayana: Cessation as goal. Theravada is a continuation of Hinayana, although Enlightenment=cessation(s) got updated to true Nondual Enlightenment in Theravada also, at least in some teachers/lines. But it has a certain "hangover" of valueing cessations a lot, which is ok, because if that is done often enough the Nondual Enlightenment can and does open up. Cessations = Enlightenment would be a prime form of Leos Buddhist Reductionsim. https://www.shambhala.com/historical-introduction-excerpt-integral-buddhism/ And there is not just "one" Buddhism. There exist so many schools, with development over millenia. And btw. Jainism is so similiar to Buddhism that there are doubts that the historical Buddha even existed (because Buddhas story is pretty much exactly the same as the story of the founder of Jainism Vardhamana Mahavira, see below in blue) or if it is just a founding myth. A framework. @Leo Gura: One of your favourite Buddhism-extremist-reductionist afficionados just killed the Buddha. And requests to be promoted to part-time Buddhist-Iconoclast. And maybe Nondual-Enlightement-Reductionist. But no longer Buddhist reductionist, because, you know, got kicked out of the club for killing the Buddha . And he even delivered some juicy books with a lot of aliens&faries&angels&demons inside as atonement. Oh my, I hope you get my humor For killing the Buddha softly, see for example "Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana": "It is customary to assume that the Buddha was a historical character (even iconoclasts like Trevor Ling do not question his historicity) but parallels with non-Buddhist systems raise a suspicion that this may not be so. It is no longer believed that there was an ancient Greek poet called Homer who composed the Iliad and Odyssey. These “Homeric” epics are now understood to be compiled and refined from the compositions of many individual storytellers. Might not the teachings of “the Buddha” be analogous? Could the teachings also have been an age-old body of wisdom, analogously compiled, refined and imputed to a single, fictitious author? These teachings would have been transmitted orally but eventually, when writing systems arrived, transcribed as suttas. The earliest Buddhist art does not depict the Buddha as a person, but merely in symbolic form. In these so-called “aniconic” images, he may be shown as a parasol, an empty throne, pillar of fire or a pair of footprints. Could this be an acknowledgment that “the Buddha” was not a person in the normal meaning of the word? There is a strange feature of the Buddha’s biography which rarely receives comment and that is its similarity to the life of Vardhaman. Also known as Mahāvira (literally, “great man”), Vardhaman was son of a king, born with the 32 major and minor signs of his body. His father, the king, consulted wise men who foretold that he was destined to become a world-ruling emperor or a great spiritual leader. The wise men advise the king that to prevent him becoming a great sage, he must keep his son distracted with amusements. This the king does until, as an adult, Vardhaman escapes from the palace, meditates in the forest and achieves enlightenment. He teaches a non-Vedic path which, he says, is called Jainism. Anyone who knows the life of the Buddha will recognize all this as the same story. Even so, I have left out a lot of parallels such as identical personal names of characters in the biographies. Buddhism and Jainism also share many of the same … Killing the Buddha by the River softly while selling water

@emil1234 For Marc Leavitt "it" "went down" the same way, with some further Awakenings into Oneness down the line. "The" Void. Behind your head. Beyond the bubble of the visual field. Spaceless vastness. Infinite. Timeless. Deep Sleep. Death. Eternity. Yet, pure potential. And actually, the groundless essence/suchness of every appearance. The substance-less "substance"or suchness of all possible realms. Groundless ground, "falling" into the Infinite. "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head" Remove any concepts/imaginations of space from "it". Probing with your focus of attention into it only leads to more imagined space, but not spaceless/infinite. Make "it" genuine limitlessness. Boundless. Spaceless. Infinite. "It" is larger than an Infinity of space and endless dimension. "It" contains them all... Jump? jump?? jump! Now you just need to find out what you are, and what "others" are. And in what these states of void, dream, wake and deep sleep "roll" before. Maybe there is no "you" if "you" don't imagine yourself (I-feelings, I-thoughts)? Maybe IT sees only ITSELF, in everything that appears which is IT, but no you? Maybe there is only THAT? Impersonal Infinite Vastness, able to imagine "small" "you", I-feelings and I-thoughts imagined and moving in IT? Switch it/you on, and switch it/you off if IT is so inclined? And maybe THAT is YOU? And then, maybe, all "it" and "void" and "other" becomes Infinite You. Or rather, it is understood to have always been this way. Just with some illusions/ignorance before this true state of things was realized again. PS: Leavitt, Enlightenment: Behind the Scenes. Could speed up the clarification... PS PS: Like @Yimpa wrote, the tip of a magnificent infinite endless awe-inspiring iceberg....

Ah, you know, enlightened enough As I have already told you. I flinch a bit from calling me Inliytened2 , but yeah, "I" know what I am talking about. Solipsm: Useless when talking with separate-self-well-and-alive beings, because they always tend to project their Identity on it and blow it up to nondual Unity-states with the Infinite Field of Being (often with the help of some, um, less-than-legal substances). The Godrealized-Ego. But yes, there is only one. One-ness. If Solipsism is not just a concept projected by an ego, but a truly realized Way of Being, truly realized that "the" same impersonal Awareness looks through each set of eyes... perfectly fine with me. And also Absolutely... True! As long as there is an "other", Infinite Being has not been realized, and Solipsism becomes just another conceptual booster for the separate-self to hijack & suffer. The magic word is impersonal. Not only personal, but truly empty and impersonal infinite Awareness/Being. And here a Koan for you: Who are YOU really? "I" know "you" know it. Idealism: Empty appearances hovering in "the" groundless Infinite of True Being. So idealism is obviously more truthful than materialistic views. Appearances = "Consciousness stuff", or Suchness. Has become totally obvious and always "verifiable" after a long time of practice cultivating awakened nondual states. Oneness? Ever found anything&any"one" that possibly could be outside eternal&infinite&groundless YOU? So yes, its talking to myself... But what else is there to do? All my thoughts. What I have written in the last post, to my knowledge, you can copy & paste from nowhere. That is why I do the Muppet-Show-Selling gig, because if someone else would have already written all of that in the way I like it, I could have saved myself the trouble and instead go do something else, along the lines of my lovely hobbies. On your command, my dear dream-brother : Hach... I truly love Aliens&fairies& Angels and demons! Fascinating stuff. Imagine what kind of adventures "we" will have, this life and the Infinity of lifes yet to come Ok, I have no doubts that some will still put me in the corner of the closed-down-minded Buddhist r******reductionists (sorry, have yet to adopt on the new very courteous customs at this lovely place here, got a bit of a hang-over), and I admit its my job to make that pidgeon-holing at least a bit more challening... Let me know how I am doing! It is just that I prefer to have the peace & stability of resting in Infinite True Being in my nice little comfy valley after having come down from the summit. And not to be disturbed by any grasping for the alien. Or for any other "wave-surfing-easing-the-pain-that-a-still-contracted-self-contraction" causes. That is why I chop-chop any such grasping in my mindstream as soon as it feels like coming from a lack, or from grasping/suffering/self-contraction. Because if the fascination comes from the self-contraction, it is just a new game to keep the self-contraction spinning-suffering-reliefing itself in experiences/understandings and so on. Exploration for enjoyment yes, for grasping no. The True Being of yours truly has infinite time to explore infinite realms. Luckily, that has become self-evident by just "reaching-into-it" and realizing its eternity, or always-here-nature again. I can hold eternity within the palm of my hand. You know what I mean. Can't disappear. So why be in a hurry and not relax the self-contraction and enjoy the show the shows itself here on this lovely planet? But each being has to burn its "exploring-the-Multiverse-grasping-Karma" on its own speed. I just sometimes tell little tales about which kind of choice on the path to the Infinite has been benefical for me. Up the mountain to the highest Summit if Infinity Absolute Reality, or up to the secondary-summits with the Aliens sitting on top of it. Of course, I don't expect too much immediate success doing it, but it still needs to be done. "At least we can say that we tried" by the River

Oh well. Where there is not stable realization of Infinite Being and nondual Awakened States sobre in everyday life, there is only suffering-in-cycles wave-surfing. Wave-surfing up and down Maslows pyramid. And one can also appreciate the lovely lady & lovely alien when resting in True Being or after having fallen into the Infinite Ocean. Just too much preference for wave-surfing understanding consciousness of woman/alien n+1 prevents dropping into the Ocean of Infinite truly Impersonal Being. Which btw. is an Awakening which one can't anticipate or imagine in any way before it really happens. If one could, it would have already happened... So lets hope it doesn't need a major or minor crocodile (like the one has that has bitten you out of the pretty much non-stop-psychedelic gig of last year) to wise you up on wether the summon bonum is dropping into the ocean or surfing ever higher waves. Spiritual Intuition can make one skip some of the crocodiles, one doesn't need to get also bitten by the crocodile sitting at the fork of the road with the sign "Summum Bonum: Wave surfing or falling into the Infinite Ocean?" Selling the eternal boring broken record of dropping in to the Infinite Ocean of Being instead of wave surfing by the River PS: Selling & broken record: Yeah, you are right: I guess I start to sound like this guy: So surf the largest wave ever dear Leo, and then after have done that I wish you that you have the Karma to finally drop into the Infinite Oean that You Truly are:

Nothingness or suchness is the essence of every appearance, appearing in Infinite Impersonal Being. Form(or appearance) is Nothingness, Nothingness is appearance/form. The same "stuff/non-stuff". Realizing this beyond a doubt is Enlightenment, expressing and stabilizing these awakened impersonal states in daily life is the path that follows after it. Infinite Being lives itself, the universe "universes", without any contraction into a centre of perception and its lenses and filter-illusions. Consciousness OF a woman, OF a man, OF a human, OF an alien... any consciousness OF or more radically, any consciousness OF anything, be it self-reflective or not, is like a show of states (appearance/form/temporary/not really existing but just appearing) rollling "before" the impersonal Awareness of True Being. Which is pure Impersonal Awareness, unaware of itself if nothing arises, but with potential for sentience. Infinite Being. And which is Nothingness if nothing arises/appears. The consciousness OF something (man/woman/alien) is wave surfing on the ocean of Infinite Being, stabilizing living from the impersonal nondual awakened states where this Infinite Reality if Infinite Being is obvious (and "living itself") is dropping into the Infinite Ocean and becoming it fully. And afterwards, one can still do wavesurfing, or consciousness-OF-x exploration. And rumour has it that wave surfing the Infinite Ocean can become quite tiring & stressfull & and a bit less than relaxed if done for too long by a separate-self-contraction. And at some point when one doesn't want continue surfing ever new waves (of which there exists an Infinity of, forever and ever to be explored by God "itself") the dropping & dissolving & and fully BEing the ocean can happen. But wave surfing is all fine and well as long as it is fun... Selling neoprene suits so that the dropping into the ocean feels comfy for all tired wave-surfers by the River

If you want to call realizing Infinite impersonal eternal True Being (and staying awakened nondual states sobre) reductionism of Consciousness... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductionism "Reductionism is any of several related philosophical ideas regarding the associations between phenomena which can be described in terms of other simpler or more fundamental phenomena.[1] It is also described as an intellectual and philosophical position that interprets a complex system as the sum of its parts.[2]" Luckily, Infinite/Absolute/Nondual Being doesn't have parts. Nondual. Only in duality/ignorance it appears so as being divded and having parts. Nondual doesn't have parts. So reductionism doesn't apply. Selling better don't play reductionism with Nondual Infinite Being by the River PS: Wise new video by the way. Meeting all children of your True Being where they are at. Stabilizing from yellow to turqoise to coral and so on. Nice. A solid base to stabilize the love that resides in Infinite Reality if it is not divided.

That is why I wrote infinite. In-finite. Not-finite. I didn't write Infinity as you did. Something not-finite can't be measures in any way, that is its defining property. Not higher nor lower, not more or less, not here or not here. Infinite Being. Always here, and never any kind of form. Reality itself. Infinite Reality, to be precise. Unchanging. True Being. Techically, Infinity is manifestation. A mathematical object. Manifestation and appearance. Happening in Infinite Being. But not the Infinite, as in Infinite Being. Only the content or what appears in Infinite being can vary, different Infinities, appearances, understandings. All the understanding you grasp is understanding of more content/manifestation/appearance/shadow/illusion. Realizing/Being/"Understanding" the Infinite Absolute of True Being on the other side is Enlightenment, which actually brings the satisfaction you seek with your understanding-project of infinity of infinities. Confusing the Infinite or Absolute with Infinity is btw. the core difference between true Impersonal Infinite Nondual Realization and a nondual realization still interpreted through elements of subtle ego/personality/separate-self filters. It is btw. the core mistake you are still making, and that will not change until you get a big clap from the One Hand and finally let the rest of whatever remains of your separate-self or "Leo"-ness die and see through it as mere appearance. Temporary form arising, a hypnotic illusion covering True Infinite Being. So basically seeing through & cutting off in real time what remains of your remaining separate-self gig. So well, can get more Infinity than Infinity: Yes, true, known since Cantor. Different classes/sizes of Infinity exist, and that why one can get more Infinity than Infinity. But can't get more infinite than infinite, can't get more absolute than absolute. That is how absolute is defined. And Absolute=infinite. Non finite. I know makes this differentiation doesn't make sense for you, but maybe just keep it in mind. Somebody once made a really smart video on youtube about open-mindedness. Maybe stay open-minded, so that the One Hand has a change of finding you and clapping the rest of the Leo-illusion out of you? Trust me, nothing more wonderful than that. In that moment, all Aliens & ETs in the Infinity of Multiverses will give you a hug, and whisper in your ear: My Darling, we just appear to be different, but actually we are all one, lovers of truth and understanding united in Infinite Being and of the same essence. And then you can continue meeting & hugging these way more intelligent beings and bask in their understanding of Infinities, but coming from infinite nondual being before the trip, and letting them appear in nondual true being during the hugging. Then we would have a truly happy love affair, since the essence of these beings wouldn't leave you after the romantic trip. Selling Water by the River PS: As you know, no Lèse-majesté inteded, always. And always with (imagined) alien respect & love.

Yup. When "it" is not Absolute. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy) Can't get more Absolute than Absolute, can't get more Infinite than Infinite. I agree in so far that many Enlightenments (by far most of them) are announced when it is not Great-(Zen-lingo) or final/full-Enlightenment (Impersonal, Death of the separate self, real Satori), but just Nonduality, or Unity of the separate-self with the universe (just nondual, not impersonal, just unity of personal + Universe, or Kensho). Or, the difference between waking up and a nondual dream.