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Some Quotes from Stephen Wolinski, The End of the Game - Deconstructing the Portals to the Absolute. Below are some quite poetic pointers on how the last separate-self-identities or arisings (very subtle ones at that stage, which is very close before crossing over to Enlightenment) appear and get transcended. They are already very empty and quite impersonal (of personal stuff/Ego), and can and normally are already nondual, or unitive states. Wolinski calls them Portals to the Absolute, because it is in these Portals/states/last separate self identities where the "ripening" of Awakened Awareness (= technical Mahamudra term, standing for totally Empty Impersonal Nondual Boundless Timeless Consciousness) happens, which still has some layers/arisings at that ripening stage of some very subtle "Individuality" preventing full Enlightenment, or crossing over, until finally transcending even these last illusion layers, and then sudden crossing over to waking up /Enlightenment happens. One can not "push" through them with willforce, or artificial activity. Because that would generate more subtle separate-self arisings (will/trying to do/pushing something IS a separate-self arising, is artifical activity). But with something like Nonmeditation-Yoga of the Mahamudrasystem, one just rests in Pure Empty Impersonal Boundless Nondual Consciousness (or nondual unitive state Reality at that point in time), and lets these last veils evaporate. What is very helpful (at least for me) is the understanding (or a map) what these very subtle last separate self identities/veils are and how they work, because they are very hard to spot. No-Self is not automatically True No-Self, or Nothingness. And if one confuses the final Impersonal Empty No-Self of Enlightenment with some No-Self/Portal still loaded with subtle separate-self-identies, one does not cross over to Enlightenment, or finding the Real Empty Impersonal Infinite No-Self of Absolute Consciousness/Nothingness, the essence of all appearance. Ones True Deep Identity of the Universal Mind, the One without a second , Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, or: Nothingness. And now Stephen Wolinski (The formating is like this, because it is like this in the book, and increases its readability): "THE NO-SELF SELF I-DENTITY The appearance of the perceiver, aware-er, knower observer, witness no-self self, the position-less position the no-point point of view the non-being being etc. These subtle Identities often times remain unnoticed because they appear in such a pleasant form such as: Silence, a peaceful space The space between two thoughts The gap without thoughts memory emotions associations etc." and "Often times, the Appearance of a Portal which is a State requiring a Knower is a Phenomenological Appearance. Any Portal can mistakenly be confused as being the Absolute. All portals and spiritual paths are appearances and are experiences requiring an experience-er… Portals are appearances that are labels which carry with them an associational network of thoughts, memories, emotions, associations etc. Portals Appear to Appear in the Dream-Illusion. [that is, they appear in Infinite Reality as arising/appearance, temporarily. Portals/states like the appearance of the perceiver, aware-er, knower, observer, witness, no-self self,] Eventually, the appearance of Portals as well as the appearance on which the portal appears which could be called or named the No-self-self Identity, the No-Position Position, The No Point-Point of View, the Vortex appearing on the Ocean of Existence The Witness The Being(ness) All Evaporates… Prior to all appearances Prior to the Absolute… Prior to I Am THAT The Nameless Absolute…that which is prior to and without consciousness, awareness, knowingness, being-ness, form or emptiness" "Please note that the stillness etc. is a by-product of the no-self self Identity and that a no self-self Identity, aka a position-less position aka or a no-point point of view are all part of the appearance. In this way the appearance and the perceiver, knower/aware-er, witness, observer or a no-self self identity position-less position or a no-point point of view etc. is part of the appearance. In other words, they arise and subside together. Moreover the perceiver, knower/aware-er, witness, observer or no-self self identity etc. is part of and fixated and fascinated on the something-nothing or appearance disappearance game (to be discussed later). ... Realizing this leads to the appreciation you can deconstruct appearances ad nauseum and still end up continuing to deconstruct appearances. In other words there is no way out of the loop, without the evaporation of the perceiver, know-er, aware-er aka no-self-self identity etc. which is experienced as stillness, peacefulness, presence or I am etc. ... Finally, feeling like a separate self or feeling a “non-dual” self or feeling are both states. There is the dual identity and a non-dual identity. the dual identity and a non-dual identity are states and are perceiver, knower awarer dependent, and are appearances ... [appearing in Reality/Absolute] " "It is the appearance that appears to appear as a witness or a know-er or an aware-er etc. which is part of the illusion. All of the appearances of the witness, knower, aware-er, perceive-er observer etc.) are appearances, temporary illusory-mirage like appearances which contains the illusion of stability, solid(ness) and permanency. This illusion functions to stabilize the illusory dream of existence, isness, and/or beingness." Selling Water by the River

A nice post from Frank Yang on Bernadette Roberts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadette_Roberts ). https://www.instagram.com/p/CsJMKS6uNZf/ True No-Self is not the No-Self of no Ego, or No-Person, not even the No-Self of the Unitive States, or "being" a Nondual/Unitive Infinite (mere appearance) Field (that still contains an awareness (a separate self with individuality is having, subject) of an infinite empty nondual field ("object"), for example induced temporarily by psychedelics). True No-Self is the final death (or transcendece) of any form of the separate self, crossing over to Infinite Fully Empty Impersonal Nothingness/Consciousness, or Full Enlightenment. "There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all". - Kalu Rinpoche True No-Self can not be understood before fully waking up, before Great or Final Enlightenment, where any reamaining separate self fully dies/gets transcended, Infinite Impersonal Consciousness unseparable of its appearances arising within in. That last deep identity change is not gradual, but sudden. Unexpected. And has nothing beyond it. The dropping of the separate self can not (by definition) be imagined or understood before it finally happening, see the yellow markings above. Because who would do the imagining? A separate self (in whatever version). Which has to be gone to fully wake up. So the separate self can't do the imagining how it "would be like" to be gone. It is the "thing" doing/being the imagining. "Incapable of conceiving its own non existence", see text above. When one walks down the unitive states road to the end, boosted by Psychedelics, one can end up with forms of solipsism, and even further with an Infinity of Gods. A confusion of that with the Absolute, or Fully Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, certain separate self aspects still left untranscended. Which then kill the unitive and nondual state of this separate self/unity-state-identity/God within an Infinity of Gods/Alien/n+1 when coming out of the trip. Necessary for that confusion (some form of pre-trans confusion to use the wording of Ken Wilber) is, among other confusions, to misidentitfy True No-Self: not True No-Self (the death/transcendence of any and all separate self/Individuality arisings, resulting in fully empty IMPERSONAL Consciousness/Nothingness/Absolute) but with some lower forms of "No-Self", like No-Ego, No-Person, No-separate-body-mind (but nondual), No-Self of Unitive States up to a very subtle and empty transparent Witness (already nondual, being the nondual infinite field), but with some Individuality still left. The last dropping/transcending/-seeing as objects arising in ones True Self- of identity, center, localization, any forms of individuality-arisings, very very subtle feelings or awareness OF Emptiness, OF an infinite universe being seen, awareness OF being, awareness of anything is what finally brings this sudden crossing over to ones Real Identity. Waking up, Enlightenment, fully empty and impersonal Consciousness/Reality. And that is where there is nowhere further to go (no n+1, no new Awakenings), final peace and liberation are to be found. In ones True Identity. And that is why stopping short, and declaring that stopping short (New Awakening n+1) as higher as that crossing over to ones Real Identity (Nothingness), is a dangerous pre-trans-confusion, which doesn't lead to ones True Being and final liberation and the end of suffering, but a continued grasping and suffering for ever higher and newer "Awakenings" not into emptiness/Nothingness, but form/manifestation, and how the manifestation/imagining process is structured. And for those not even walking this (psychedelic-) path, but basking in proliferating mere (retold) concepts or stories about this path, ending in Solipsism and Infinity of Gods, it doesn't even deliver the transcendence and beauty that these unitive and infinite psychedelic states bring. But something on a spectrum ranging from suffering to madness. The spiritual path is the transcendence of the separate self, its death or letting go, once and for all. Neti Neti, until fully being everything, because one has become the real Nothing/ness. Not the blowing up of the separate-self to infinite God-like-solipsistic dimension. That would be the other direction, leading not to freedom and love, but to suffering and closing down. Directly into the cycle of merciless suffering and dissatisfaction, being caught in the prison of the claws of the separate self/ego/self-contraction. That is what makes this pre/trans-confusion (at least in the perspective of yours truly) very very dangerous. And now, for those disagreeing, the Bear-and-Empty-Mirror thing (signature link) please Selling Water by the River PS: And to end a bit "lighter": A Samsara/Lila consisting of separate selves necessarily needs continuing Illusion/Ignorance concerning ones True Identity. So for the fraction that will for sure not change its mind just because there is Water being sold at the River (posting above), and still prefers to continue with a certain solipsistic-messiah complex, yours truly would recommend considering doing it with style: Something like the very charming and apparently very attractive for the ladies - style of Russell Brand: Then, at least, its very charming . Less capital letters, less exclamation-marks, less angry criticism, blaming and calling names, but truck-loads of charm, (especially) with the opposite sex!

Yes, agree. Please allow me some further musings (not specifically adressed to your post, just some general ramblings).... Others don't exist. Yes. But at the same time, "oneself"/separate self also does not exist. Exist=Ex-ist, or literally: standing out from Reality. Practically: really doesn't exist. Just an illusion. Has the same level of reality/existence as the tree "one" watches: an arising illusion. In reality, when the separate self illusion no longer arises, the tree is watching itself, perceptions perceiving themselves. And practically speaking: If one gets rid of the fake illusory separate-self, the problem of "others" is also solved: Non Dual. No others. Not Two. But also not one.... Because one doesn't make sense without two. Reality itself. Is not one. Is not two. Is infinite. And that Reality is fully empty, fully impersonal, perceptions perceiving themselves. If one gets rid of others first before getting rid/transcending ones separate self, one gets the solipsism-narcissm show. And nothing with real Nonduality, not two, but just a ego-show of the highest degree. Neti Neti. The deep structure of EVERY spiritual path. Before becoming everything, one has to become nothing. Nothingness. Because if one doesn't, one isn't fully empty/Nothingness, which is the essence of every appearance. Path (1) is hard, its transcending/letting go/death and dying of the separate self. Path (2) seems easy (just change some concepts/thinking, et voila), but backfires at the end. It just doesn't work, suffering continues. So if one is not fully empty/impersonal/fully Nothingness (goal path 1), only thing left to do (path 2) to is to project this more (like an empty witness) or less (like the fully narcicisstic ego-separate-self-grandiosity-show) onto a more or less nondual field. True nonduality is being fully empty/impersonal. Its very easy to get a nondual experience merging with the visual field while not being empty, still being a separate self with individuality: Just drop some Psychedelics.... Nondual is not enlightened (or fully imperpersonal Nothingness being Everything, or Reality itself). But Nonduality is a prerequisite of realizing true Nonduality, or the fully empty impersonal Enlightenment/Nonduality, realizing ones Identity as Reality itself. Empty, Impersonal Nothingness, or Pure Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. The essence of all arisings, Infinite Reality itself, the Absolute. Thou shalt not be able to see my face; for no man shall see my face, and live. - Exodus 33:20 Selling Water by the River

Very interesting collection of quotes. He is definitely smart enough to understand the difference between Solipsism and real Nonduality. But I don't think the dark move you describe happenened. He doesn't need to do that just for his brand. If he wanted money & fame & validation & attention & whatever, he would probably just start the mother of all cults. Smart enough he is.... I believe something else happened here: Many trips, and fully being this Imagined Universe/Multiverse, which he then called God. What I would call Buddhafield with a Buddha/Manager/God of that Reality/whatever you want to call it. Something has to run and be this show. In mystical experiences and/or trips you can become that God. Merge with it, or become it as Identity (Wilbers high subtle and low causal levels). Still not the end of the story. Because: What is the essence of that Buddha/Manager/God of that Reality/whatever you want to call it? Nothingness. And during these trips, it became clear for him that he actually was that. The Reality of that Multiverse/Buddhafield, already a nondual merging with all of that. Sovereign. But not fully empty. So far, so good. Not fully Empty Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness. Wilbers High Causal, Nothingness. The Gateless Gate and Gate-Keeper, after which real Nondual Enlightenment waits.... Steven Wolinsky writes of something very similiar (see below). Funny thing is: His trips have shown him 95%+ of the properties of Reality, and more or less fully shown him how this God/Buddhafield/Void Universe works, merging with it in a nondual way. And realizing that being that was more true to his true core than the everday waking character. But not realizing the Abyss of the Absolute, not the totally empty Nothingness. He thinks he has it, but if one is still aware of an "it", ... But there is/was still a very subtle "he" perceiving "that" or "being" that left. Then he doubted that to be final, doubted everything, and tried to reach out for "something" beyond (see his Video "Infinity of Gods". And he says in the Infinity of Gods video then "conincidentally" at exactly that moment another God/Buddhfield/Multiverse/rReality reached out (by free will) to touch him as God/Buddhafield. Thus maintaining the sovereignity of both him as God/Void Universe, and the other God/Void Universe. Then he postulated an Infinity of other Gods or Buddhafields, just like "him". Basically, he had to deviate from classic Nondual/Infinite teachings, invent the Infnity of Gods theory, to make place for his experience that there was still another God/Void Universe reaching out to him. All of wich exists, but all of which is still form, identity, ... . Not the absolute Abyss of fully Empty Impersonal Nothingness/Consciousness, or the essence of Reality itself.... and of course, it doesn't really make sense to talk of oneself as the God/Void-Universe running/being this dimension. Even if one is that (because one is all), its too risky to talk like that and make onself confuse or inflate ones separate self/perspective with that larger more encompassing perspective/being (a larger Holon, the Void Universe Buddhafield God Holon containing all lower perspectives/Holons within it), or cause that to happen at others. But that is another topic... That seems to be more or less the end of the road where you can go to with Psychedelics with the separate self not fully gone, but 95%+ gone. An awareness of emptiness, of God, of the Infinity of Gods/Buddhafields/sovereign Manifestations, even an Identity with it. And having ones fellow God-buddies reach out to oneself (Infinity of Gods). With a little bit of confusing the properties of that Buddhafield-God, like sovereignity, and projecting that on himself. But all in all still an awareness OF something. and By something, BEING something..... the very last remnants of a nearly totally empty Individuality/Identity aware of ... [something], whatever that is at the moment. Awakening n+1. At least while tripping. Not fully empty, not fully impersonal, neither while tripping, and definitely not after the trip. But proclaiming that this not empty identity is a higher Awakening than the full empty impersonal Enlightenment to fully empty impersonal consciousness/Nothingness, and then truly being everything. Including the Infinity of Gods, the infinity of other Void-Universes-Manifestation-Dimensions. If he would look deeply into the emptiness (or mere appearance) of all that he experienced during these trips, all his assumptions/concepts/pet theories, all his last remaining last Individuality-arisings, and let of them die, truly die, truly transcend them, disidentitfy, let go.... we could get to see an Enligthenment to true Nothingness, a final waking up to his True Being, being so empty that it can fully hold and be everything, also while not tripping. That would be the end of his grasping for ever new insights, understandings and Awakenings n+1. It would also be an end to him as separate self. I doubt that can be done using mainly/only psychedelics, because of the time one needs in these empty states to truly get rid of every last separate-self arising/and last Identity/any awareness "of" something, without frying ones brains. But I could be wrong on that, I don't know. Lets see if Karma holds that for him Enlightenment on his path. At least from my side he has the best wishes to bask in the final liberation and bliss that that brings. And with that step, he would integrate his teachings with the collected experience of humanity on Enlightenment and waking up, and even push the knowledge into the manifested nature of the Multiverse, or into knowledge about form/manifestation, further. Knowledge of the Absolute (Emptiness/Nothingness) always is the same, at all times, forever. Doesn't change, and can only be realized by being it, letting any cloud darkening the Sun of ones ever burning Primordial Being finally evaporate. Water by the River The quotes from Steven Wolinsky, The Way of the Human Part 3 "In 1995, what “this” was became clear enough for “me” to describe because, for the first time, “I” could “see” that this was beyond the VOID—and, more importantly, there was not one VOID but an infinite number of VOID universes. In other words, the VOID appears to go on forever. However, it does have an end, and when the end is reached, the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE is revealed. To best illustrate this, imagine, you are in an oil well (VOID) in the middle of the Sahara desert. While you are in this oil well (VOID), you have all the experiences contained within that particular oil well universe. From inside the oil well universe (the VOID) an infinite number of experiences exist which are true and specific to and within that particular VOID (oil well) universe only. But when or if “you” were to expand and reach the top of the well and climb out, you would be in the desert (the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE) and “you” could “view” an infinite number of VOID universes (many, many oil wells) which in Quantum Physics could be likened to parallel universes. In India, beyond the WITNESS and the VOID OF UN-DIFFERENTIATED CONSCIOUSNESS lies the SUPREME WITNESS which Quantum Psychology calls the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE. Now, within “our” VOID universe are the concepts of energy, electromagnetics, gravity, space, mass, time, distance, location, God, enlightenment, One Substance, quantum physics, Archetypes, paths, religions, etc., etc., etc., etc. But these are true only within our one particular VOID universe—they may or may not make any “sense” within other VOID universes. It can be said, then, that the SUPREME WITNESS is beyond the infinite number of VOID universes. The most powerful Archetype in “this,” “our” VOID universe, is the collective concept of GOD. The concept of God and a seeker after God or truth are Archetypes of such magnitude that it impacts practically everyone in the world. Most religions are based on an omnipresent God who somehow rules the universe." and " The “space” between the VOID universes (VOIDs) is the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE. For descriptive terms only, this is the difference between SELF-REALIZATION and GOD-REALIZATION. The realization of “NOT-I-I,” the VOID OF UNDIFFERENTIATED CONSCIOUSNESS is SELF REALIZATION. GOD REALIZATION is BEYOND SELF REALIZATION and the VOID OF UNDIFFERENTIATED CONSCIOUSNESS. It is the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE and it is the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE which erases all other dimensions including the VOID. In the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE, even the VOID must be gone beyond. " Only problem with the last paragraph is the definition of the wording. Leos God-Realization corresponds to Wolinskys Self-Realization, and Wolinskis God-Realization is the Realization of the Absolute. PSPS: Yesterday, pretty much by conincidence I drove by and visisted the ruins of Monastery Disibodenberg, where female mystic Hildegard von Bingen lived and worked in the 12th century. I didn't know she was living there when deciding to visit the place. A marvelous atmosphere of a large monastery in ruins, in a forest on top of a mountain, where Hildegard lived and worked. The rays of the Divinity running this Reality/Universe found their ways at all times, all places. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kloster_Disibodenberg https://www.google.com/search?q=monastery+disibodenberg&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE3qSH0f_-AhUIn6QKHQHpBHIQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1745&bih=845&dpr=1.1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen

Yes, I agree. The picture just can help explaining why there is no external world with 3D-space, but an Infinite Universal Mind/Consciousness (the One without a second) able so split itself (only seemingly) into an infinite number of perspectives, thereby imagining/manifesting a "world". An infinite number of perspectives, of which most perspectives can not perceive the "inside" view of other perspectives. Being a human wouldn't work if one perceives at the same time the perspective of every other being on the planet. But each perspective perceives the "outsides" of the other perspectives, their appearing "body/form". Et voila, there is the manifested world/lila, or Indras Net, without needing any "external" "solid" matter. Made out of Consciousness/Nothingness as its essence, perceiving itself by itself. Francis Lucille called that process of forgetting the other/further perspectives "forgetting in space", instead of forgetting in time (forgetting in time = like in what did one do exactly one year ago. Normally one can't remember, has fully forgotten it. Or is not imagining it right now). Water by the River

@Husseinisdoingfine You can still cling onto the Buddha and nothingness. This work is more serious than you’re thinking right now.

I remember reading a wonderful interpretation of the Buddha, where he did indeed awake to God and Love, but then called it 'nothingness'. He did this so that his followers would not have a preconceived notion to cling to. In the similar way that Christians have a humanoid view of God due to Michelangelo's paintings, the Buddha didn't want something like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_7:16 ... just kidding Leos Teachings hold a lot of potential, and my guess is that soon as they evolve over the Solipsistic/Infinity of Gods - phase (please excuse my humble opinion), and no longer confuse a not-so-empty God-(separate)-self with the Absolute Emptiness of the Absolute/Reality, or the Absolute Empty Abyss of Nothingness of Impersonal Consciousness, the "fruits" (Matthew 7:16) will also be marvelous. I guess there is quite a high chance that that will happen. He is smart and diligent, and has published some awesome videos on bias and self-deception and the like, not to speak of all the other videos which contain really some great stuff. But in this Lila nothing is predetermined or certain. So, as always: Enjoy the show, and Bon voyage! As soon as every little subtle remaining -separate-self-arising/lense/bias/awareness of emptiness/awareness of being/awareness of being God or Reality or Alien or whatever, anything at all/awareness of being anything- is transcended/seen&let go/subject made object/ burned and is no longer colouring the experience of Infinite Reality or True Identity of Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, then "burned by the everburning flame of ones own primordial nature —all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free." - first part yours truly, second part in quotation marks by Bassui (also below). I wish him exactly this genuine peace and joy permanently in daily life that comes along the permanent realization/waking up. Then one is the whole Enchilada, watching itself, being absolutely Nothing(ness)..... and Nothingness never has a problem, only can contain them... moving around in itself like mosquitoes, but then of the slow flying version, easy to splat/transcend/cutoff. Sorry, probably not a Boddhisattva-style metaphor. More on the mosquitoes see below: So, it seems, until then: With every heroic pioneering effort, there is certain danger. Hic sunt dracones! https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hic_sunt_dracones Water by the River PS: The full quote, from Three Pillars of Zen, Kapleau: Bassui: If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free. For the first time you will realize that walking on water is like walking on ground and walking on ground like walking on water; that all day long there is speaking, yet no word is ever spoken; that throughout the day there is walking, yet no step is ever taken; that while the clouds are rising over the southern mountains their rain is falling over the northern range; that when the lecture gong is struck in China the lecture begins in Korea; that sitting alone in a ten-foot-square room you meet all the Buddhas of the ten quarters; that without seeing a word you read the more than seven thousand volumes of the sutras; that though you acquire all the merits and virtues of good actions, yet in fact there are none. PSPS: The rest of the Mosquito metaphor: .... And by the way, what one thinks what one is if one thinks oneself to be still anything at all: These are the mosquitos/separate-self-arisings (I-thoughts and I-feelings)/lenses/localizations, buzzing around in True You (the Totality), endlessly annoying, but making the hell of a show.... If they are too fast emerging/moving for oneself to easily squat them all at ones own convinience (genereally, keep the useful ones (the functional character) buzzing, squat the rest, the ones with "suffering" painted on them), then there is meditation/transcedence work to do. The meditation/Transcedence gets the bliss flowing by the way, which is like some smoke that slows down the moskitos, makes them easy to squat/transcend.

Yes. Nice that you write this post. Very true. >"Solipsism, yes. But from the point of view of God (which is not a point of view, obviously, but using that word as a means to understand ourselves). Not from the point of view of the ego [separate self]." Not from the point of view of the ego/separate self! And Solipsism from "the view" of the One without a second, or Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Suchness/Reality itself doesn't even really need to be mentioned. Because there literally is nothing else, like in "never could be". So it doesn't really make sense talking about it. To whom? "Others"? The consciousness of the mind-stream of other beings can be directly intuited/felt/realized to be ones own empty consciousness at certain levels of Awakening. But Impersonal, Totally Empty Concsiousness. It "wouldn't work" any different way, it has to be empty. Technically speaking, "IT" would not be compatible to fit into the perspective/mind-stream/consciousness of another being/perspective if it weren't totally empty. Just Awareness, AWARE, and nothing else. Empty. Impersonal. How could a consciousness with "my" personal properties "fit" into the mindstream of another being. It couldn't. Therefor, Nothingness, totally Empty Impersonal Consciousness, with another mindstream (feelings/thoughts/subtle feelings of being/separateness/....), structurally exactly the same as ones own mindstream, with the same essence - Nothingness. Which is also the same essence of very appearance of the visual field also. All of that can be directly realized. With certain levels of Awakening, one can directly intuit that the separate-self illusion arisings (I-thoughts, I-feelings) in the mindstream of other beings has exactly the same structure than ones own mindstream (and its I-thoughts, I-feelings). One doesn't read the content of thoughts (some do), but directly intuits their structure/process, in the exactly same impersonal consciousness than the essence of ones own mindstream. And that essence of Nothingness/Impersonal Consciousness is also the same essence of EVERY appearance of the world in the visual field. Also, a direct experience in Awakenings, and something that gets constant in Enlightenment (to paraphrase for example the Mahamudra-system): "Crossing Over to Enlightenment happens when every thought/concept/feeling ("internal" arising) and every appearance (world/visual field form) is seen as empty-thought-concept and empty-appearance arisings in Infinite Awareness-Space". And that is what one is: IMPERSONAL Empty Consciousness. Or better "Nothingness", to make sure that nothing is projected onto it, or that its not fully empty. It is literally Nothing, but with the capacity for sentience. And even that isn't always active, see Deep-Sleep. Definitely, it doesn't include separate-self arisings/confusion/illusion arisings "on top". That is "the screen", and its capacity for sentience/awareness/consciousness. To make it specific: Talking about Solipsism could only make sense from totally empty impersonal Consciousness or Nothingness. And then it is not necessary! (Because it invites more mis-understandings than the clarity it delivers). Talking about Solipsism from any ego/separate self perspective doesn't make sense. And if you are at that empty level of infinite (!) impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness, one without a second, it is redundant and totally unnecessary to talk even about Solipsism. >As long as there is an identification process, there is delusion Yes, exactly. And any form of Solipsism applied to the level of the delusion/relative/ego/separate-self level only can increase narcissm or (separate-)self-grandiosity, which is the No.1 building block of the separate self, the most seductive one, the most dangerous delusion mechanism of Maya. One of the very last things to go. (And then one can guess what makes Solipsism so attractive for egos/separate selfs? Well, one can go ahead confusing the little separate self/ego with the full glory of God/Kosmos/Reality, and feel veeeery important, and boast around with absolute claims.) That (the danger described above, and other dangers) is why by the way in Tibetan Buddhism (and practically all spiritual traditions) Realized Ones normally NEVER speak about their attainments, and at least tend to downplay them, state them smaller, because that tends to boost ones self-importance. And that is not good, neither before or after Enlightenment. Brings bad Karma, not as happy-as-can-be-life. And the same holds also for the not-realized or not stable realized ones. Not publicly announcing ones realization has got other negative effects (like not much examples, or making it appeat to be nearly impossible to reach), but saves oneself (and others) in being more on the "humble side") from the burden of self-importance/self-grandiosity. So its a balance, see one of my last posts with the Video of Ken Wilber. And second factor: Even if you know Absolute Reality and are enlightened, that does in no way mean that ones relative life automatically already expresses the potential that this realization opens up in terms of compassion, ethical living, and embodying the truth. It provides the potential to do so, and also tends to unfold this way. But it is not assured. Ken Wilbers "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up". Over the long-term, when Enlightenment becomes more common, only the "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up" stable and mature versions of it will find group-approval/consensus. Because only that version of it is "cool", the other versions are "less than cool", or "pretty uncool". And if with Solipsism one can boost the importance/self-importance/grandiosity to hilarious proportions, confusing ego/separate self with Reality/God, and claiming stuff that is just not appropriate to be claimed for any separate self/any perspective in the Great Net of Indra/Reality/any being, but only for God proper (Nothingness, Impersonal totally empty Infinite Consciousness), well, then one has exchanged the former separate self with a new vastly-blown-up"God"-ego-separate-self, an ego/separate self blown up to cosmic dimensions and self-importance. And then good luck transcending that, and the suffering that goes along necessarily as with any separate-self identity. The big big risk that at least yours truly can see on this forum: Exactly that tends (not at every case, depends probably on the baseline-"blessing"/Karma of narcissm and self-grandiosity already in place) to happen with frequent usage of Psychedelics. 95% of the properties of Infinite Reality get revealed (the relative side, like ones identity with the whole universe (this Infinite Void-Universe, Buddha-Field, or "God" if you are so inclinded to call it that way), but not the fully empty/impersonal Absolute side of it, Absolute Impersonal Emptiness or Nothingness/Abyss that can never be seen. (And by the way, as Steven Wolinsky for example writes based on his Awakenings/visions, there are and infinite Number of Infinite Other Void-Universes/Buddha-Fields just like ours, each with a God/Buddha at its center running the "show", while being it. And none of that is the Absolute, its all relative stuff, manifestation. Not the absolute empty Abyss of Nothingness.... I remember a video somebody once maid about an "Infinity of Gods", sovereign just like oneself.... "). At least not completely, because the Psychedelics don't kill the last remnants/rest of the last subtle separate-self arisings (mainly "Individuality", or a very subtle hard to spot feeling of still being there as anything at all, or an Awareness "of" Emptiness/Nothingness/Nonduality/whatever. Still an Awarness "of"...). And, to make it even more seductive or dangerous: One is not aware what this last "individuality", or "Awareness of ..." is, or that that is still happy and busy and active, destroying ones crossing over to Complete Realization, making one still suffer. If one would understand these last remnancts of Illusion, of "Individuality", one would instantly wake up and stay that way. Knowing what one really is. If Realization of ones Identity with the Absolute Infinite Reality/Nothingness ends after the trip, maybe there was still something active blocking the full Realization throughout? Little remark, included after a waaay to long rambling: If somebody has truly read until here, and thinks all of this post is all BS, please quote the number 147, to show that one has actually read most of that dry and boring musings of yours truly until here... ( : . Thank you, very kind. Well, nothing of what I have written will proove anything for those persons having fallen heavily for that trap. especially those who do it just by thinking and watching videos, and boosting their narcissm already with that tremendously, and didn't even walk the Psychedelic path properly, but are parotting concepts & dogma from someone else. In my humble opinion, it doesn't speak for the forum that such an ego-show can happen without more highlighting these obvious mistakes. So for the "all is understood by watching the vids, but never did a trip"-fraction: Maybe consider taking one of the harder psychedelics like 5-MeO, have most/95%+ of your ego/separate self handed on a platter to you, and then come back with maybe a little bit more existential humility and awe in the face of Infinite Consciousness/Reality, and the way it can easily kill 95% of you with a little chemical and smile while doing so. Luckily, normally their tone of writing, loaded with self-grandiosity, narcissm, and writing style that generally is not "so filled" with bliss/love/compassion as one would normally expect of Divinity/Absolute/God-Realization, showing for every reader with at least some form of working spiritual compass in the heart, that their suffering probably has not ended, and they are peddling conceptual ideas and not actual realization. and if they "camouflage" their writings a bit more towards the "humble and loving/compassion side", at least it gets more pleasant and softer to read And as always, Bon Vovage for "everybody"! Selling Water by the River

Buddhism doesn't acknowledge Love Awakenings. They focus on emptiness and nothingness and the void etc. Leo makes fun of it because it denies an aspect of Reality which is obvious. So Buddhism is close-minded and therefore limited. Leo has certain limitations as well but many of you don't see that either. In truth human spirituality is utter bullshit and is corrupted by human egos. You only discover this when you understand that God loves EVERYTHING.

No, that dream just happened. I didn't contemplate about that too much. Sure I did contemplate the topic, but I never had real problems with that. A bit yes, but not too much. Maybe because when that contemplation of "other" became a real existential topic, I was already practicing (and concentrated on) staying in boundless changeless limitless Awakened Awareness (infinite, nondual, mere appearance). When you are in that state, it doesn't freak you out that "others" don't really exist, but one can directly intuit that the same Impersonal Consciousness that Oneself and Reality really is, is also the substratum/essence (Nothingness/Consciousness) of their mindstream. You can intuit/feel their Illusion-arisings of I-feelings/I-thoughts of being something specific as being exactly(!) the same as the illusion arisings in ones own mindstream. The exact same mechanism how "others" fall for the illusion, as oneself does and did. Once one knows the structure/pattern/gestalt/essence of ones own Illusion separate self arisings, one sees them in "others", or other perspectives of the same consciousness. That doesn't cause shock, but limitless empathy. It is You (not the separate self, but the real you, Impersonal Consciousness, totally empty), litereally You looking through all eyes. That is the core and source of all empathy, but now without any filters and flowing freely, directly intuiting und knowing that it is You looking through all eyes. Then, where should the shock come from? All beings are children of the Real You, Impersonal Empty Consciousness (not a of separate self blown up to God-like proportions). Including what one formerly thought was "oneself". Only the separate self arisings/gestalt need "others" for love, validation, belongingness, self-esteem, the whole Maslow-Pyramid stage 1-4 up and down is made out of that. Couldn't be different to get a society going & surviving. Impersonal Consciousness and the bliss flowing from it doesn't need it. So it could make sense to transcend all of that already to a large degree before entering the terrain where there is no "other". The gentlemen who wrote "Enlightenment: Behind The Scenes, Leavitt" describes his final Enlightenment experience when he directly realized that he IS his daugther. Literally the same consciousness. Not as metaphor, but literally. Didn't cause a shock, but infinite love. Disclaimer (not written for you Breakingthewall): All of the above is only valid when one speaks from an Identity and mindstream of Impersonal Empty Consciousness, not from the perspective of a psychedelic boosted separate self (or even worse, not even having the psychedelic experience and just playing playing mind-games having watched some videos), blowing itself up to God-like dimensions and playing God. The entrance price for all of that is literally the transcendence/death of large or most parts of the separate self, and the final price is its complete demise/complete transcendence (transcendence of the separate self part, and then include the remaining functional character. Transcend and integrate, not transcend and disassociate, see Ken Wilber). Death/Transcendence not of the functional character/Ego, but of the separate self arisings. The main indicator for the separate self still being well, alive and active is narcissm, or self-grandiosity and self-importance. Preferably in the form of preaching from upon high. On the other side, that is not even a bad thing, because then every newbie with at least some intuition, common sense, and a not too narcisstic karma can spot that from a mile away. Instead of transcending/slowly annihilating the separate self, one boosts it up to God-like dimensions with doing that. Good luck ever transcending that! Doing something like that can destroy ones life. There have been cases like that, final station mental asylum or next life, or in the "best case" just a miserable unintegrated life full of suffering- end of disclaimer - I don't know if that view/frame helps. Maybe it is a nice exercise to feel deeply into the essence/consciousness of what you are, and then deeply into the consciousness/sentience of "another"? Its the same Nothingness/Consciousness. One can directly experience that (if oneself is completely empty, just pure impersonal consciousness). It is not philosophy or a nice idea, but a direct experience. But one has to be completely empty. The own lense of perception has to be completely empty of separate self arisings (=high speed cut off of any of these arisings before they grip/hypnotize oneself and elaborate fully, Trekchö-style. Needs familiarity, training and high-speed of attention/spotting, aka the goal of meditation. Please see my last decription-posting of the Pointing out the Great Way Mahamudra system, link below), only then one can intuit that. A colored lense with stains will not let that intuition/understanding pass. As second step, one can feel that essence of every appearance of the visual field as Nothingness, hovering as mere appearance in infinite Nothingness, at a certain point of practice Which is necessary at some point, because as Daniel Brown said: One can not understand the Totality/Wholeness from a partialized stance. Nonduality has to be there before that understanding. One has to literally become all phenomena appearing in the Infinite Boundless Changeless Awakened Awareness field (that is Nonduality), and then see what all of that is and who or what is aware of that. Then, at the end of the Road, Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness IS everything: Your Mindstream, the mindstream of others, the appearance of the world in the visual field, every though/feeling. Infinite, boundless, limitless, nondual all there ever could be. Everything that could ever appear appears in that, made out of that suchness/Nothingness/Consiousness as its essence. Then, one experiences/becomes/is... Home/safe/Indestructable/eternal: And that actually is not shocking. But if feels like one is at home, now and always, wherever you go in relative reality. No Fear: Somewhere in the Upanishads it says "Where there is other there is fear". If there is only oneself, which is indestructable (no moving parts, just Nothingness that can't disappear), there is no fear. Infinite Love: The recognition that there is no other in the whole kosmos, but only the suchness of ones being, bound together in a infinite nondual field of love Infinite Freedom: When the bliss/love of your own indestructable infinite true being flows, what could you ever want that you don't get, or ever be taken away from you? Total freedom. Then we have Eternal/Indestructable, Fearless, Love, and infinite Freedom. But before one gets there, the illusion-mechanism/Maya/Lila had to place some strong "illusion-protection-mechanisms" in front of these properties of the enlightened mindstream, because if it wouldn't scare the separates selves, who in his right mind wouldn't attach his own mindstream to these properties of the enlightened mindstream. And the strongest one is probably the need for "other" or "others", Maslow stage 1-4. Somehow I mostly fail to write short posts. Maybe I need to go to a training "Concise writing for Dummies" who went off the deep end of Emptiness... Selling Water by the River

I think you will be doing fine. There is nothing to loose but an illusion. >To let go everything is very difficult and scary. But don't ot let go, is a jail. I understand you very well. Several years ago, I had a dream. That was before deeper insights into reality happened. I died multiple times in that dream (literally, by falling, smashing, other funny stuff also), and the visual field went off, only a darkness suffused with light remained. Not the usual blackout (unaware of itself), but an infinite Nothingness suffused with light remained. That was a causal state (using Ken Wilbers terminology), which I later realized. A state quite near to Absolute Reality (meaning easy to intuit the properties of Absolute Reality. Absolute Reality is always here, but sometimes more easy to intuit), but not unaware like Deep Sleep. Nothing there, Infinite, but still somehow aware (suffused with light). That happened multiple times, and during one of the last deaths, I got a bit cocky, saying to myself something like "okaaay, now show me if I can really die. Lets do this again". Dream-Death, and again the same time this causal state of an infinite Nothingness suffused with light appeared. Then, again I died, this Nothingness suffused with light. No objects, no time. A few seconds or a vastly longer time, I couldn't tell. Timeless. It was the same timeless Always Here Mind that I intuited/realized later more clearer. Then I woke up to "real" life, again passing through this Infinite Nothingness suffused with light. What somehow went with all of that was somehow the fear of dying all those "Enlightenment" Deaths, of being Nothing at all, Impersonal, an infinite vast reality perceiving itself. When it began happening to become really more and more impersonal, like beyond my comfort zone, I was a bit shocked like "okay, impersonal? really? Not "myself", the character?" But soon I knew again and realized what would always remain, being that which could never not be there. Indestructable, totally empty, like "no-moving-parts". Eternal. But with the potential for sentience, and to become/manifest anything IT wanted. Independend if a Dinosaur, another human, an animal, or whatever else would manifest in my mindstream/perspective as subject in another illusion/Lila. I even became grateful when a dream appeared that was not lucid, like the fun/experience of having the chance to believe such an illusion again. That took away the fear of being less than lucid once more. So the after-glow of remembering that dream ended a phase pretty fast that could have been prolonged for sure. Nowadays, I am very thankful for that dream, although I only recognized its meaning, significance and effects much later, when significant parts of the separate self died, or rather got seen through for the illusions that they were. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Actually, I am in the lucky situation that I never will be needing to charge anything for the stuff I am selling. So technically, its not selling. More like annoying with meditation-propaganda... . And no, no rich parents Selling Water by the River is the title of a book and the statement of a Zen Master, meaning that when one is talking about meditation/Enlightenment, one is sneakely "selling" the people what they already have/are: "Water by the River". I went a bit over the top with the length of a posting I just made: In that, concerning the nature of thoughts: And maybe one more perspective: Thoughts are subtle objects, appearing and "moving" in you. WIth practice, a certain directionality/movement gets intuited, as strange as that sounds. Another subtle object is the mathmatical object of the square-root of minus 1, in mathematics called "i". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_unit You can never see it, but it exists, as mathematical object. If you ever had to do alternating current calculation using complex numbers like i, as yours truly had to do quite some time ago , the usefulness of "i" and other stuff becomes apparent pretty fast. So, "i" is real, but you can never see it. A subtle object. Can be understood, experienced, can be calculated with, has useful applications doing so in the "real" world. And you can never talk about i and doing the practical stuff with others who had the experience of understanding what i is. And sorry in advance, but I can't avoid doing that : For the all-is-imaginary-fanclub: Here you have "real" imagined numbers ("i"). Here it is completely technically correct to talk about "it is all imaginary". Because who in his right mind would be strange enough to define the imaginary number i, the impossible square root of minus 1. The only thing I am waiting for is for one of the "all-is-imaginary-fanclub" to actually start doing calculations in the imaginary unit and complex number plane, and then "correctly" saying: It is all imaginary. Sorry for the little disgression. So what is "i"? A subtle object, floating in you like a thought. "i" is an object, some thoughts of you are already an object you can work with. Some are not, you look through them like a lense, a subjective arising. Meditation is making all (I-)thoughts and I-feelings also to objects you see moving within yourself. They move in you, but you are (not only) them.... If you know the nature of thoughts fully (their essence is Nothingness, or Infinite Empty Impersonal Consciousness), you would be enlightened and know and understand the true Nature both of yourself and Reality. The essence or nature of any appearance in the visual field can also be directly apprehended as the same Nothingness, the same Suchness of Reality. So it is well worth it... Selling Water by the River

DMT Quest has made two books and several fascinating videos. https://dmtquest.org/questions-for-the-lion-tamer-1/ and It is really fascinating stuff, that can explain a lot of other phenomena in an integral way. Among other things, they postulate that the Endohuasca-system is triggered by a) Meditation https://dmtquest.org/meditation-hypnosis/ Get Gamma-frequency of the brain up, and the endohuasca-system probably starts flowing.... In Ken Wilbers system, subjective states (Upper Left Quadrant) have correlates in the body (Upper Right Quadrant), and vice-versa. Causing positive feedback-loops, increasing lucidity and nonduality, bliss and so on. The transformation of the whole self/identity, in stages, making states permanent.... Principle: States are free, stages are earned. When the mindstream conforms to the requirements of these systems, stabilizing and enlightened mind-stream. Daniel Brown did a study with his "Pointing out the Great Way" students and a advanced Brainscanner. Result: Gamma-waves boosted to the max.... Maybe helps to take transforming the baseline state via meditation to "trippy"-levels more serious... b) Dark Retreat (The Tibetans do it for 100s of years, several other tribes do it, tends to induce visions. Some kind melatonin-pineal-gland.connection). c) Special Breathing (Wim Hoefer, Holotropic Breathing, Tummo, ...) d) Other stuff (Near Death experiences, cancer in certain areas of the brain (pineal gland), Kundalini, ...). trigger the body-endohuasca-system. Some meditation-states, especially advanced ones once stabilized in daily life (post-samadhi), or hardcore pillow-meditation-states, are quite "trippy" and (1) change the visual field towards "not external/nondual", "lucid,vivid,bright, groundless mere appearance, Nothingness as its essence, "hovering" in Infinite Nothingness". (2) kill the localization sensation of being in the body, making one no longer localized in the infinite field, but being the unbounded wholeness of Reality. (3) And bliss. Ken Wilbers once linked that drug addicts of Heroin get previews to the bliss of certain meditative states, and of course get addicted to that. Although I have never tried Heroin and am not so stupid to try, in my experience I can confirm (1) (2) and (3). And having these states in place, it becomes possible to intuit and realize what is aware of the whole Enchilada, being also its essence: Nothingness. Perceptions perceiving themselves. Ones True Identity. There are definitely bodily/energetic/chemical changes going on in these transformations or stabilizing these states as stages. The two books are actually a good reading for everyone belittling meditation and the permanent and deep transformations possible (@Breakingthewall, I know you don't and are open. I just write in general, as always). The states induced by psychedelics that are ripping ones heart open to Infinite Love, bathing ones sould and being in heavenly bliss, and opening the separate self contraction to the Infinite, are also available to the body by endogenous means. Or else, how would the stereotypical enlightened one with a halo depicted around the head "oozing" bliss "work"? Auto-Suggestion? The receptors in the body are there anyway, else psychedelics wouldn't work. Just add a system where an enlightened mindstream (empty, fast enough to spot separate-self-arisings, very high Gamma/Delta-waves/meditation states) triggers the body-Endohuasca-system, and one has hypothesized a possible mechanism growing and transforming baseline-consciousness to the Infinite. A system that could explain the manifestation of the potential of the human being, ranging from atom-molecule-animal-primate-human to Infinite Being/True Identity, ACTUALIZED on a permanent and stable basis. Certainly not boosting trippy states to the " stratosphere" where one can no longer "walk straight", but a lovely way to life ones life... ACTUALIZED sounds (at least to me) more like: Realized ones potential, like in "permanently". Not only for the trip, and then again with the next trip... That would be "actualized temporarily...." And of course "Exo"-Huasca of course also works.... Selling Water by the River

One of the best arguments to use against religious people is to ask them if something can come from nothing. Almost all of them I have asked so far have said that it is impossible for something to come from nothing. But there is a problem with saying this because if you say that something cannot come from nothing, then you are contradicting yourself because how can you claim you have free will if your thoughts and choices are always coming from something outside of you. That is essentially determinism in a nutshell. And their God would have to come from something too since God is "something" by their logic. But if God is Nothingness, and they claim that something cannot come from Nothingness, then they are basically saying that God is impossible and doesn't exist. On the other hand, if you say that it is possible that something can come from nothing, then you are at least opening the possibility of free will because free will is being able to make choices independent of past influences. However, this does not escape the problem because if you claim that it is possible for something to come from nothing, then you admit that there is no outside creator separate from creation. If something can come from Nothingness, then the something that came from nothing is Nothingness manifested into somethingness!! There is no existencer of existence. There is only existence. Therefore, God does not exist. Argument from free will is that if your choices come from something, then you do not actually have free will. But if your choices come from nothingness, then you have free will. But claiming that you have free will is also saying that you claim that you are God, which most religious fundamentalists do not agree with. They think God is separate from them and creation. Argument from determinism is that if something can only come from something, then determinism is correct and you cannot have free will. But this is dangerous to religious thinkers because then that would also mean that sin cannot exist since sin is a freely chosen act against God. You cannot be held responsible morally if the causes of responsibility go back infinitely. Compatibilism seems to be the correct way of viewing the relationships between free will and determinism. Consciousness isn't entirely free because it needs to limit itself in order to experience itself. Neither is Consciousness mechanistic. The past/future don't exist outside The Eternal Moment, so extreme determinism isn't right either. The correct answer lies in the balance and non duality of freewill and determinism. Think of it like Free Will is the Yin and Determinism is the Yang. Just like how the Universe is hot and cold, dark and light, and neither one or the other. Convincing a Religious Person What God Really Is My thoughts on all of this are that everything you see around you comes from nothingness. There is no such thing as an infinite regress because everything goes back into nothing and not something. Infinite regress assumes the past exists, but you have never experienced the past, only the present. Infinite regress does not exist, only an Infinite Process. For instance, you can look at a pencil and can use your mind to trace the ''causes'' back forever. But that isn't because it is an infinite regress. That is because the Present Moment is an Infinite Moment and can keep imagining past/future forever in this Infinite Moment/Process. All of your thoughts tracing a pencil ''back'' is actually one thought of an Infinite amount of thoughts occurring in this Uncaused Moment. Consciousness is Uncaused. What would cause consciousness? Everything you trace as a cause is Consciousness! Everything you experience or define as a cause is occurring within Consciousness! A pencil is nothing but a figment of Consciousness. Every object, sound, perception, music, art, brain, and person is a figment of Consciousness! The cause of a pencil is Nothing! But Infinite Consciousness can imagine ''causes'' forever because Existence is Forever and is Uncaused! There is no such thing as an Infinite Regress (never has and never will) only Infinite Consciousness! What atheists call the Infinite Regress is actually ''God'' or Infinite Consciousness! I actually do not prefer the term God. I think The Force is more accurate. Think of what you call God or The Force as being Gravity. Gravity is God! Why do you think George Lucas calls the most fundamental substance of the universe, The Force? He is pointing to Gravity, which is a figment of Consciousness. The Jedi are using The Force (or Gravity) to manipulate Gravity!! God is Gravity, Consciousness, The Force. So yes, you have free will but you also don't. Black and white thinking is one of the main problems of the religious mind. What are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree? Share your insights.

Razard86, in my humble opinion, you didn't answer the question of OBEler. But maybe OBEler got it, and I didn't. The other beings/perspectives don't collapse or end when you or OBEler (or I) die/end. Indras Net and Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness (which we really are, already now, we just "forget" all other perspectives/beings) will continue fine without all of "us". To think it all ends if a certain perspective is switched off is solipsistic madness. Thinking the Totality stops when one separate perspective is shut off... Its like looking a bit too deep into the pond like Narcissus did, and boosting it with the power of an Infinity of Gods. Don't you intuit that the exactly same consciousness/Nothingness that you are is every other being? When I look at other beings, I intuit the same consciousness that I really am (and every being is). Their mindstream arisings arise in that Nothingness/Consciousness exactly as in mine. There is no difference. That Nothingness is the essence of everything, all perspectives, every appearance in Reality. Nondual, infinite Nothingness, Reality itself. The same Nothingness/Consciousness that we all are can continue very well without you and me, and anybody else. It can't go anywhere. "It" is already everyhting, everyone, infinite and total. You only get problems with answering these questions if you confuse Totally Empty Consciousness/Nothingness with something not so empty. Like a totally empty separate self/witness, with some individuality still left, hovering in a nondual field. Especially easy to get there with psychedelics. Or even worse: "Thinking" ones way there, watching one Youtube-video or two too many... Going down that road, one has to use construct funny concepts like Infinity of Gods (very nondual indeed), and other Solipsistic funny stuff, making space for a separate self blown up to God-like proportions. The funny thing with Solipsism is: If you proclaim you are the only one having a sentient perspective, every one else having also sentience and consciousness knows that you are, well, a bit nuts... Probably this here is peak solipsistic/Infinity-of-Gods madness. The top level to where you can drive a still separate self Gestalt, proclaiming it is God and that there are an Infinity of other Gods. But hey, what do I know.... And now please throw some arguments from the Absolute Side of the Street at me Bon Voyage Water by the River

Lets take Ken Wilber take on that, on which I agree: The Ego as functional character handling daily life stays. The enlightened ones have strong egos, and left their mark on the world. They knew/know what they really are. Hard to shake that first-hand-knowledge of ones True Identity, so they are not easily scared away. The separate-self-arisings/Gestalt/structure: What goes in True Self Realization are the separate-self-arisings, or the exclusive identifying with the character ....even if the separate-self remaining is its only an empty witness-anything basking in Nonduality, but with some subtle Individuality (=separateness) still intact - The usual psychedelic hang-over separate-self-identity still haunting a not so selfless/empty mindstream). The separate self arisings as "identity" are then replaced by being Reality itself, CONTAINING a hopefully functional character/Ego. The separate self is dead after realizing ones True Deep Identity. Literally. If its not dead, its not Full Enlightenment. Why? True Identity=Nothingness, manfesting Reality/Totality and being its essence, nondual and infinite. But nothing specific you can point to. Perceptions perceiving themselves. The separate self arisings, including one of its main components/building blocks, NARCISSM/self-grandiosity, get killed/transcended/no longer believed/cut off/seen as fake illusion objects moving in oneself, and discarded on that Deep Identity Shift of Full Enlightenment.... ... Not the functional character (which some also call Ego). One doesn't get stupid and cuts that off, and remains a stumbling nutcase ever after.... Problem with the term Ego often is: Ego=functional character arisings PLUS separate self arisings. Because our society fuses these two Gestalt-structures as one, because it doesn't know any better and doesn't have much examples to the contrary. ... because the separate self arisings (and especially NARCISSM/self-grandiosity) are recognized as being actually one of the largest defense-block against the realization of ones True Identity, Nothingness/Reality. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Very True. The concept "everything is just imagination" doesn't help one a bit if the suffering of the separate self still "grips" and is not transcended on a stable basis. And it grips/holds until Full Enlightenment, to varying degrees. And Karma, or cause & effect, or the consistence of this Bardo/Life, is very very high in this life/bardo/incarnation, compared for example to a dream. If you "shoot yourself in the knee"-Karma-wise (or literally), it will be with you for the rest of ones life.... Not like in the dream, where the wound is gone when you wake up. And if one goes fully from the relative side of the street to the absolute side of the street: When all is imagined, or better said a manifestation of the One Reality without a second (its not imagined by a separate/self ego, or one of the infinite perspectives in Indras Net, but by the Whole Reality/Nothingness), there is no difference between "real" or "imagined". One doesn't need to classify it with the concept "imagined" vs. the concept "real/self-existing". It just is. Appearing in The One Reality without a second. And it all follows certain patterns, or Karma, cause and effect, at least in this world/Lila. So what is the point labeling it "imagined", if one is clearly still in the claws of Karma/suffing and separate self? Other than spiritual bypassing? What is the benefit? As long as one suffers, it appears as very real.... or who would suffer if "its only imagined". And telling somebody who suffers "hey, its only imagined, believe me and you can stop suffering now".... yeah, works great, shows a lot of empathy and compassion, and helps the poor sould for sure a lot... The Tibetans are in this business for 1000 years+. They have seen a lot of mis-use of jargon from Enlightened Ones misused by not-so-enlightened-ones. And the outcome of that have been for example statements like this: "Although my view is higher than the sky, my respect for the cause and effect of actions [or Karma] is as fine as grains of flour." - Padmasambhava There is a lot of wisdom in that quote... Water by the River

Yes, very good point you write. And very important. Steven Wolinsky has once said and written: An experience of the Absolute is just that: An experience of the Absolute. It is not the Absolute itself, which is the True You/Reality. But an experience that the True You/Reality is having. In Itself, in the Infinite Groundless Totality of Infinite Consciousness/Reality. In Nothingness, as Halaw (God is Nothingness) calls it, to avoid any "positive" property being attached to the Absolute. Which is infinite, which is another word for "no positive quality at all besides being Reality itself", or: Nothingness. IT contains all possible infinite qualities. If the True You is Nothingness/Absolute/Reality, then when "Infinite Consciousness" tries "to look back over its shoulder" so to say (which it really can't, because IT is everything/the Totality), and experience OF NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS arises. And paradoxically that experience arises IN the infinite Reality that one is. But that "experience of the Absolute/True You" that can be induced by looking into the Absolute Empty Abyss/Nothingness that one really is IS not true You. Because its an experience of the Emptiness/Nothingness/Absolute that one truly is. But doing that often enough "drives the point" home, making One understand that One is really totally empty, Nothing or Nothingness at all, and with that including everything. Reality. Facilitating the Deep Identity Level Shift towards Nothingness/Reality itself, making ones mindstream conform more to the enlightened mindstream. Here, it gets quite paradoxical (but its totally logical once experienced/understood), and couldn't be different. Nice metaphor of Massaro: The Water-Pistol imagined in Infinite Nothingness. Imagine an infinite vast nothingness, nothing there at all. Infinite. Boundaryless. No change happening, so no time. Nothingness initially not aware of itself, but with the potential for sentience/being aware of arisings manifested/imagined in itself. Then, a Water-Pistol is imagined: One suddenly has object, subject, limitations, imagined appearances, a you looking at the water pistol. And if that water-pistol moves: time and change. And if it disappears, Nothingness again. Like in Deep Sleep, unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience and subject-object, if the water-pistol reappears again. If the water-pistol is not there: Infinite Consciousness again in its totally empty version (which is always here anyway, Infinite Reality itself), like before your parents were born. Buddhist systems somtimes uses that example/metaphor in a variation: The dreamer and the dream. The dream also happens/appears in True You. Similiar to the dream happening in the dreamer, being made of the "sustance" of the dreamer, or being imagined by it. Both examples (looking back over its should, and Water pistol) are not the "real thing", but nice approximations that helped me a lot to silence the mindstream, make it rest in its true nature.... And having the right view (like described above and the previous post) boosts the cycle of (or prevents it getting stuck) meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality, -> meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality and so .... ... until at some point the mindstream conforms to the real state of Reality, and Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment can happen, which is a sudden, clear, deep final shift of Ones Identity towards ever having been Infinite Reality itself, never possibly could be anything different, throwing out any and all mistaken separate self-identity-arisings/I-thoughts/I-feelings (or understanding their illusory nature when they arise in oneself in real-time, and transcending/seeing them as objects moving in oneself, and watching them elaborate/arise, or just cutting them off). Nice thing is: It is un-gaslight-able. Why? Because the gaslighting would occur in what? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Also, there are not stages to go further. Because where would they occur? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Some interesting and beautiful stuff/manifestation/its mechanisms of Infinite Reality, or rather its manifested side, the wonderful Multiverse can still be explored and celebrated, but: why allow any negative "grasping stress" arising in oneself for the experience (temporary by definition!) of more understanding/awakening to the next n+1 experience of understanding or experiencing more of the infinite possible worlds/experiences of this wonderful show? Hint: God/Reality "itself" will continue to explore the infinity of infinities of the manifested "side" of Reality forever and ever and ever.... That (Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment) can happen when all world-appearances is seen as mere imagined appearance happening/"floating" in the groundless Nothingness/True You/Reality, and all "subjective" separate-self arisings are seen as mistaken identity arisings in oneself, getting replaced by the True Deep Identity of Infinite, Groundless, Totally Empty and mere appearance Absolute Reality itself). And then, welcome home to a home you never really left. Concluding the journey that never really happened. Only appeared to do so. that includes at that stage ending trying to force it (because it has to be automized without a separate-self-I "doing" them, because who/what could try to force it? Well, the separate self. Which would re-enforce it again). Tricky until the end... with best regards from Maya The paradoxes of that advanged stage are described by the way very nicely in Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra system, preferably descibed in "Pointing out the Great Way, Brown". Please excuse my long musings... Hope nobody feels lectured too much. Selling Water by the River

And since the True Oneself is still there (by definition) in such empty "horror" states (no observer/subject/witness, or "death without end" as you call it), what one thought one was before is just an appearance/arising/illusion/FAKE. What One really is is perceptions perceiving themselves, nondual, no self with any quality left besides just pure empty awareness watching its own arisings, totally nondual, perceptions perceiving themselves. Also: Since "one" is still there in these observerless-death-horror-states, apparently what has dropped away was some sort of temporary illusion, by definition. So its some sort of Illusion-death-horror-experience, because one is apparently still there to tell about it, and to experience it. That is where the "permanent" or "always here/never not not right here" aspect of ones True Identity becomes useful to identify illusion/temporary arising, and the real (No-)Thing. Steven Norquist describes that like a nice Horror-novel: "Haunted Universe: The True Knowledge of Enlightenment ". When you had enough time in these states, the scary/horror part drops away totally, and is replaced by the bliss of these nondual and empty states. Which is then very(!) lovely. One has a human/ego, contained within Oneself, arising in Oneself, but is no longer only that. One is the Whole Thing, and ever has been. The initial "Horror-Reaction" depends on the speed of being dropped into that Nondual Empty Totality. Psychedelics deliver probably the fastest "drop". When it happens slowly and gradually, there isn't too much Horror in some cases, maybe some scary moments (that is me?!?. But what about "real" me??? . Oh, its the other way round... ), but one gets used to that. All that is lost is an Illusion. What is gained is a Deep Identity Shift, fixing the former mistaken identity/illusion of the separate self-Gestalt-arisings, into becoming the "Whole Thing/Reality itself", and even more important: Into being eternal/invincible (no moving parts anymore that can be hurt or disintegrate, nothing that can get destroyed or even change), into being the whole Reality being able to manifest/imagine anything wanted in Itself, being made of Itself... A total Freedom, because one will never suffer since no psychological suffering arisings will ever "grip" again (at least not in this life, if the brain doesn't disintegrate like Alzheimer and so on) a total Fullness because the Love/Fullfillment/bliss freely flowes from ones Core, and a total freedom from fear, because even if in future reincarnations/shows, the Illusion of separate self-arisings will arise again, it will not affect ones true core, infinite absolute Nothingness/Reality. and probably a certain momentum/Karma of being pulled to get there again in the next play/show/life/reincarnation, if one is inclined into believing something like that. But hey, maybe being a dinosaur next time is more fun, so I am flexible on the concept of reincarnation/Karma and so on.... The Real Me will always be there, can't be not there.... The following quite is like a mathematically precise short definition of the real state of things, that deep Identity Shift of Enlightenment: "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche But the dropping of that Illusion is "protected" by Maya/Lila with the strongest Horror-arisings there can be..... The Horror of being NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS. That experience is like the Wizard of Oz: Appears to be scary, but doesn't really exist. It also only just arises. Funny construction, hm? Selling Water by the River PS: I am not belittling the Horror-Death-reaction described. It is exactly that, but on the next step/steps it becomes clear it has always been like that, and only an illusion dropped that has never really been the case, only appeared so. Then it gets relaxed again... But can feel like the Boogeyman being real in the beginning. Enlightenment is realizing the separate self (the appearance/Gestalt of its merely arising thoughts/feelings/sensations and so on) doesn't exist (the "Horror-Moment" for some) NEVER EXISTED (the big relieve of realizing the mistaken identity of the past), and WILL never (really) exist the Real Oneself/Reality will never get confused or suffer, because its fully empty Infinite Consciousness/NOTHINGNESS/Reality without any specific qualities, but with the potential for awareness if a world-appearance is imagined within it) , but only can contain confusion/suffering arisings of a newly imagined separate self). then, all is good.... and great fun to look forward Francis Lucille: Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of Ignorance. Infinite Consciousness/Reality doesn't worry/suffer. and all of that is impossible to fully get before the Gateless Gate, pretty clear afterwards... PSPS: When it feels like Horror: Good, one is getting closer Further, Jed McKenna-style! And when there is never a fear-reaction when beginning to intuit deeper the rediscovered identity, then its probably not the real thing.

Long story short: I had similiar experiences like you describe concering meditation ("Basically it has done exactly what "sitting in silence" sounds like it would do: Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does."). Then I read a lot about many different meditation system and traditions, hundreds of books. At some point, I found what changed everything for me: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. A "synthetic summary" of the Mahamudra-system, from Daniel P. Brown, Associate Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School, who read the texts in their original language. He also wrote his dissertation about the deep structure similiarities (and differences) of the main meditation systems of Tibetan Buddhism (Mahamudra), Theravada, and Yoga (Yoga Sutras of Patanjali). Then I did that for over a decade, read the book and its main passages probably somehting like 10 times plus (and many other Mahamudra/Dozgchen books), understood the more sophisticated parts (Stage 3, Yoga of One Taste, or of the simultaneous/nondual mind and Stage 4, Nonmeditation-Yoga, getting rid of the last remnants of the separate self) after getting substantial practice (certain part on the pillow, large part off the pillow in daily life whenever I didn't to fully concentrate for example on attention-capturing analytic tasks. So most of the day it was possible doing that). That got the meditation/mindfulness going during most of the day. All of that together created enough momentum to get something which feels like the Endohuasca-system going, when things got nondual, empty, groundless, appearances nondual and not so solid&"out there" but more lucid/mere appearance, and a lot of bliss. My theory is that when enough momentum is there (and the separate self arisings got seen through/transcended sufficienlty), something like this starts: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ . At least feels like this. Triggered by meditation. But I would not have needed that decade, maybe a few years if done with good coaching. I agree with you that you need massive momentum. What happens when "Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does." is orders of magnitude lower than having "ego destroyed by something serious, like a release dose of toad". Problem with only tripping instead of also meditating is that: Its not permanent, and significant structures of the separte self remain not transcended (although very subtle ones, you don't see and transcend these during the trip, however much one thinks that one has done so). which can (but doesn't have to) result in a pretty interesting and funny Narcissm-Show of a separate-self/Ego still well and alived, confusing separate self/ego remains with the Totality/God. Shortform something like: "Psychiatrist: I don't know your problem yet, so so its best when you start right from the beginning. Patient: In the beginning, I created the heavens and the earth." It can also end in the more humble version of not getting rid of the usual suffering cycles of the separate-self/ego chasing for experiences that promise to mitigate the discontent, but never permanently and fully deliver. If the ego elements/separate self elements kicks in later when sobre, they have not been transcended. That is what good and efficient meditation, done over a long time, can do: Get the separate self arisings out of the way that block ones reckognition of ones True nature. That consists mainly of two parts: the former subject (separate self), that is finally realized as Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness in which everything arises, including the former object "external world", which appeared as solid&out there (so not nondual), which finally becomes nondual and mere appearance/illusion/imagined. Short form: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche When you have that in daily life, the bliss that belongs to the package of the True Self gets delivered on top. Because without bliss, the normal cycle of suffering and chasing experiences to ease that discontent/suffering continues. That is pretty much the core of the separate self, the happy merry-go-round of chasing some experiences that never finally fulfills. And to conclude: Yes, I know IT is all nondual, infinite, imagined illusion, and so on and so on. But to get there, at least I prefer it to describe it in this way, using relative language (which by definition is based on duality). Why? Because its the only way to communicate, and something like that written above would have helped me tremendously 5 or 10 years ago. But everbody is different. If it doesn't help the one reading this, please be so kind to consider it as a buffet where you can take what you want and ignore the rest, and please do the Black Eyed Peas "Where is the love" video instead of the Bear move of the videos in the signature, or "The last duel of buster scruggs". Namaste! And of course (if you are so inclined) use psychedelics, for getting previews, getting a feel what its all about, and to blast some walls that show up on the way. I have written extensively about these topics in my previous posts. If you are so inclined, please check them for more details. All of that is just based on my experience and observations, and reading about past and historic cases. Maybe you find it helpful, or at least as an additional perspective. All the best on your journey. Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

> I want to be clear that 1) psychedelics and/or 2) meditating for thousands of hours is not required, or even optimal, for the absolute within every form to fully realize itself. These practices may be highly beneficial in some cases, but they are not universally prescribed. Anyone claiming otherwise doesn't understand the unconditional and inevitable diversity of the pathways used by the absolute to dissolve misidentifications and directly realize itself, within its dream. I agree that there are many paths up the mountain. And there are cases where neither meditations nor psychedelics was necessary. Ramana, Anandamayi Ma, and others. But at least I personally know of many more contemporary and historic examples where either meditation with or without psychedelics brought realization, than examples where these two techniques were not used. >I have noticed a general bias in this forum from people using psychedelics, insisting that their realizations are otherwise impossible. I understand the reasons for this bias, due to the extreme states that psychedelics can produce. However, it is simply untrue that these extreme states are necessary or universally optimal for awakening/enlightenment. I am not opposed to them, but I do oppose any mandate of psychedelics as a shortcut to absolute realization. We are also aligned that these extreme states are not necessary for Enlightenment. And psychedelics for sure are not necessary for realization. And probably they also have to potential to blow up ones narcissism to God-sized dimension, preventing the final drop into Nothingness or becoming fully Nothing, and Everything, or realizing the Absolute. But used in an intelligent, smart and humble way with intelligence and insight, they can be nice tools in addition to for example meditation and other paths/methods. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche When having to choose on betting for meditation or psychedelics, I would always choose meditation because if its either or, I have yet to see a stable Full Realization coming from psychedelics only. But maybe its out there, I don't know. I know many cases (contemporary and historic) where meditation did the job. Luckily, for most people, it is not either or. And if it is not either/or, I would recommend both, with a focus on meditation. > I directly realize the absolute beyond the physical senses, and it is a perpetual state of being, free from psychedelics. Yes I don't ask anyone to validate or invalidate my direct experience. Instead, I sincerely encourage whoever reads this to find their own internal path to the absolute, rather than adopting any universal prescription. Everyones path up the mountain is unique. Yet, traveling (or at least starting on) a path that many already have traveled and reached the top of the mountain is maybe a good starting point. And then, one is always free to improvise and follow ones intuiton/heart. And now I am going to read some of your archive of previous posts, looking for what you shared about your personal path, because I find your posts interesting, and I like them. Besides the path of suffering you mentioned, what specifically did you do/practice? How did it all develop? Water by the River

Everything unreal is imagined, and everything is unreal Imagination is simply misidentification by the real for something it is not. Absolute reality is beyond thingness and nothingness. It's paradoxical to the mind, and can't be comprehended, only directly realized.

Because what continues after the moment of death is again relative appearance, a "newly" imagined visual field, arisings in the opening of Absolute Reality that you are. The karmic tendencies of your current mind-stream, which aggregate and constitute your Soul that passes from life to life, have not been enlightened before you committ suicide. You have not stabilized your True Nondual Nature yet. Else, you normally wouldn't commit suicide, because it is your creation, and you would life the bliss/love flowing from your own True Core. All of that (Soul, this world, the Bardo afterwards, any other manifestation) is relative manifestation happening in the Absolute Reality/Nothingness that You really are. So it doesn't really exist, but appears to do so. And how much that can hurt (appearing to do so), one knows probably quite well enough from ones current life to take it serious, even if its essence is only Nothingness/Absolute Reality. But if your tendencies/Karma/Souls have not developed in this life to see through the illusion, that will come back again in the next life. Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour. – Padmasambhava And if you kill yourself while your soul still gravitates in the illusion of separation/suffering right now, why should it be different in the existence that reappears after death? The True You will still be there, but the relative mindstream of the reconstituting separate-self will not get any wiser doing stupid things (suicide). So you if you are not going to finish second class because you drop out of school, you are not going to be put into third grade. And how much fun second grade was in that case if you drop out of school you know quite well... And of course dying and approaching the Absolute/Clear Light of Death feels wonderful, like Infinite Love. You can have that experience also while alive with Nirvikalpa. Or drop some Psychedelics/5-MeO. See also all the Near Death Experiences. But when you come out of these states again, the whole enchilada of states manifests again backwards. A similiar process happens in the Dying process after having experiences to so called "Clear Light of Absolute Reality". Nothingness but with a certain afterglow/"knowledge/acess" still available after the experience and while having it, although there is no more duality. As for example the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol , The Tibetan Book of the Dead After having falling out from the Absolute/Clear Light of Absolute Reality/Nothingness, the not so funny stages of the reincarnation-process start, and since you are not familiar with these states/bardos, "relative you" gets frightened/not so infinite loving again... and then after suicide going back to second grade again, to finish the class, so to say. Don't worry, nobody gets lost. All make to the finish line at some point. Since you can't loose your true nature. And I would recommend not walking out of school (suicide), not making second grade, and repeating that 20 times. But of course, its a free country, and the point of the ride is the ride. If you want to repeat it 20 times, nothing will stop you. But why knowingly "shoot yourself in the foot", resisting your own manifestation/show, think yourself of clever and shoot yourself, and thinking that ends school and you go directly to Infinite Love permanently? And I honestly think Leo should add to "Death is Infinite Love"-statements something like: Only in the first stages of the dying process if you have not stabilized this love on a permanent basis before death/suicide, including experiencing Absolute Reality/True You on a constant basis. What follows afterwards experiencing the Absolute/Clear Light of Death in the dying process can be a lot less than Infinite Love. Like in, for example right here and now, depending on the mindstream. Any fool can read anything to the statement of "Death is Infinite Love", and aim unknowingly directly for repating 2nd class 20 times+, thinking he has graduated PhD in "Infinite Love ever after". Karma/Cause-Effect also holds for Leo & your forum & teaching, and having a track-record of (unnecessary) suicides on this board, is... -fill in the blanks of your liking-. In my opinion less than smart-as-can-be. Anyways, as always, bon voyage to all of you! Respectfully Yours Selling Water by the River

Nice post. Let me add some musings from my perspective. >But there is a catch. You see through all the egos games. If you speak from an Enlightened perspective you will not be understood. Every ego is afraid of absolute truth. Yes. The separation/separate self/Ego HAS to be scared by/avoid the truth, by definition. Else it would end soon.... Not so good for a nice, long, interesting game/show/Lila.... But at the same time, every separate being is deeply drawn back and attracted by its True Nature, which fragrence/bliss it never fully forgot, and only partly manages to avoid, closing down to this bliss and the following various projects to get it back via a variety of experiences . And these two contradicting drives (Pull of Illusion and Pull of Truth) drive the separate self sometimes quite nuts... >The final stage is to do activities just for the pure joy. You start to walk the path of appreciation. Yes. One couldn't do different. And it couldn't work different than that. Nothing left to force oneself to do something one doesn't want. No more internal conflicts, conflicting motivations. Luckily, if you have made it this far, your motivations are normally aligned with the Universe, because you have understood and trained compassion for a long time to stabilize resting in your True Nature/Awakening, see below. >You can also start getting attached to trying to alleviate suffering but that will take years of practice because egos will blame you for their feelings and accuse you of being the source of their suffering. They will demonize you and call you a victim blamer, arrogant, a narcissist, and a gaslighter. You will need to cultivate a deep compassionate patience should you choose to engage in helping others who suffer. Wise words. That is why in all Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist training systems compassion has a nearly (or fully) equal status to the training of wisdom, transcendence and Awakening. It is considered as an equal companion, laying the foundation, of wisdom/transcendence/Awakening/Enlightenment. Strange, is it, if the same systems consider all the be an Illusion, a magic show? So why do they do that? In relative reality (our life), one can not maintain stabilized Awakening (let alone Enlightenment), when you are constantly annoyed by the Truth-avoidance-mechanisms of ones fellow separate-selves, and react with negative emotions towards that. These negative emotions/reactions do shut down ones nondual experience of the visual field being groundless mere appearances hoving in Infinite Nothingness. And more easily to understand: They shut down ones love, which is the same as the acceptence of the here and now, which is the only thing happening/being imagined right now, and actually the True You in a nondual way. So these emotions are just incompatible with keeping the nondual realization ongoing, an auto-immune-reaction on parts of your own True Being, cutting nonduality in two creating duality. And that doesn't... feel good . At least my experience. And that of many others. By the way, if something happening requires immideate "not-accepting"-action, like running away from an attacking bear, that is of course also done. Staying open and fearless, and not constricting the love/acceptence of this present moment doesn't exclude acting wisely. It is not so wise and smart to serve as food for the attacking bear. There are better things to do with your separate-self-vehicle than that.... Only Empty Mirrors are stupid enough to get their frames teared down by confused attacking bears, see my Signature of the post below, but that is another story as explained in the Job Profile for Empty Mirrors. My theory (experience) is that these "less-than-loving", non-so-compassionate, non accepting/closing down emotions cut off the Endohuasca-system: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ , solidifying the mere-appearance infinite nondual field of lucid world-arisings hovering in infinite Nothingness, made out of Nothingness as its essence, and making it solid&external or appearing "out there", duality: the "normal" state of the separate self, often less than loving, imprisoned in duality most or all of the time. So it is impossible to live in a stabilized Awakening (let alone Enlightenment) without deep compassion for other not yet realized beings. You can not blame an acorn for not being an oak tree yet. That would be rather stupid. All acorns got and are Buddha-Nature (or can realize their potential by becoming an oak tree). It is for example not the way society raises children, which is a similiar topic. We don't blame children for not being adults yet, but acknowledge their potential of being adults themselves, and raise them up to that potential. Every time I write Selling Water by the River, it is to acknowledge by the way that what is being doing is Illusion. But a nice one! What else is there to do? And since there is only appearance/illusion, there is no difference between reality and appearing illusion in some way. And Karma/cause effect fully works/holds, works like a clockwork, driven by infinite intelligence. Even if its only imagined... that "I" am "selling" something that is freely available to all (the Water of the River). Actually, there is only the Water of the River. That the water of the River is the Buddha Nature of every being, the Nothingness that is the essence of all of Reality. So nothing that could be superior to anything else at the end of the day... Actually, there are no others to safe. And yet, that is what tends to appear to happen normally. And should happen on a relative level, as it is in the nature of things... And that is paradoxical from before the Gateless Gate, but not afterwards... It is only the True You manifesting in endless perspectives.... sometimes appearing (only appearing) confused in some mindstreams, and in some not. The "Core" never gets confused, since it is Nothing(-ness). It contains the confused or unconfused mind-stream arisings. And Maya is the great seductress (hey, "somebody" has to orchestrate the illusion-show. Else it wouldn't be there! ) but there are even more elements build into our reality to guide souls back to their true nature. One of the mightiest and most powerful ones are probably: What is more attractive? An Ego/separate self preaching arrogantly with self-importance and narcissism from upon high, or a being radiating love, compassion and wisdom/bliss? and guess what feels better for the being doing that why does every being yearn for bliss/peace, intuiting that that is what one really is? In a practical experience, compassion/love increases ones realtive happiness in every way. A happy, integrated "relative" life, delivering on the stages of Maslow what the separate self need to thrive and not scream for attention most of the time, resulting in a separate self that is much more easy to transcend than a drama-show-separate-self, that constantly requires attention and maintenance, and suffers lack on the lower levels of Maslows pyramid (financials&job, friends/partner, health, security needs, belonging-needs, self-esteem, self-actualization...) And also speedens up self-realization significantly, or even enabling it, and stabilizes it. That even shows in the fact that countless studies asking humans about their deepest/strongest sources of relative happiness in life is human connection (which is based in large parts on love/compassion, or resonating deeply with "another" soul, seeing and being seen, which then yields natural compassion out of that resonance. At least if its done in a healthy way). Selling Water by the River PS: Ken Wilber: Wake up, Grow Up, Show Up