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DMT Quest has made two books and several fascinating videos. https://dmtquest.org/questions-for-the-lion-tamer-1/ and It is really fascinating stuff, that can explain a lot of other phenomena in an integral way. Among other things, they postulate that the Endohuasca-system is triggered by a) Meditation https://dmtquest.org/meditation-hypnosis/ Get Gamma-frequency of the brain up, and the endohuasca-system probably starts flowing.... In Ken Wilbers system, subjective states (Upper Left Quadrant) have correlates in the body (Upper Right Quadrant), and vice-versa. Causing positive feedback-loops, increasing lucidity and nonduality, bliss and so on. The transformation of the whole self/identity, in stages, making states permanent.... Principle: States are free, stages are earned. When the mindstream conforms to the requirements of these systems, stabilizing and enlightened mind-stream. Daniel Brown did a study with his "Pointing out the Great Way" students and a advanced Brainscanner. Result: Gamma-waves boosted to the max.... Maybe helps to take transforming the baseline state via meditation to "trippy"-levels more serious... b) Dark Retreat (The Tibetans do it for 100s of years, several other tribes do it, tends to induce visions. Some kind melatonin-pineal-gland.connection). c) Special Breathing (Wim Hoefer, Holotropic Breathing, Tummo, ...) d) Other stuff (Near Death experiences, cancer in certain areas of the brain (pineal gland), Kundalini, ...). trigger the body-endohuasca-system. Some meditation-states, especially advanced ones once stabilized in daily life (post-samadhi), or hardcore pillow-meditation-states, are quite "trippy" and (1) change the visual field towards "not external/nondual", "lucid,vivid,bright, groundless mere appearance, Nothingness as its essence, "hovering" in Infinite Nothingness". (2) kill the localization sensation of being in the body, making one no longer localized in the infinite field, but being the unbounded wholeness of Reality. (3) And bliss. Ken Wilbers once linked that drug addicts of Heroin get previews to the bliss of certain meditative states, and of course get addicted to that. Although I have never tried Heroin and am not so stupid to try, in my experience I can confirm (1) (2) and (3). And having these states in place, it becomes possible to intuit and realize what is aware of the whole Enchilada, being also its essence: Nothingness. Perceptions perceiving themselves. Ones True Identity. There are definitely bodily/energetic/chemical changes going on in these transformations or stabilizing these states as stages. The two books are actually a good reading for everyone belittling meditation and the permanent and deep transformations possible (@Breakingthewall, I know you don't and are open. I just write in general, as always). The states induced by psychedelics that are ripping ones heart open to Infinite Love, bathing ones sould and being in heavenly bliss, and opening the separate self contraction to the Infinite, are also available to the body by endogenous means. Or else, how would the stereotypical enlightened one with a halo depicted around the head "oozing" bliss "work"? Auto-Suggestion? The receptors in the body are there anyway, else psychedelics wouldn't work. Just add a system where an enlightened mindstream (empty, fast enough to spot separate-self-arisings, very high Gamma/Delta-waves/meditation states) triggers the body-Endohuasca-system, and one has hypothesized a possible mechanism growing and transforming baseline-consciousness to the Infinite. A system that could explain the manifestation of the potential of the human being, ranging from atom-molecule-animal-primate-human to Infinite Being/True Identity, ACTUALIZED on a permanent and stable basis. Certainly not boosting trippy states to the " stratosphere" where one can no longer "walk straight", but a lovely way to life ones life... ACTUALIZED sounds (at least to me) more like: Realized ones potential, like in "permanently". Not only for the trip, and then again with the next trip... That would be "actualized temporarily...." And of course "Exo"-Huasca of course also works.... Selling Water by the River

One of the best arguments to use against religious people is to ask them if something can come from nothing. Almost all of them I have asked so far have said that it is impossible for something to come from nothing. But there is a problem with saying this because if you say that something cannot come from nothing, then you are contradicting yourself because how can you claim you have free will if your thoughts and choices are always coming from something outside of you. That is essentially determinism in a nutshell. And their God would have to come from something too since God is "something" by their logic. But if God is Nothingness, and they claim that something cannot come from Nothingness, then they are basically saying that God is impossible and doesn't exist. On the other hand, if you say that it is possible that something can come from nothing, then you are at least opening the possibility of free will because free will is being able to make choices independent of past influences. However, this does not escape the problem because if you claim that it is possible for something to come from nothing, then you admit that there is no outside creator separate from creation. If something can come from Nothingness, then the something that came from nothing is Nothingness manifested into somethingness!! There is no existencer of existence. There is only existence. Therefore, God does not exist. Argument from free will is that if your choices come from something, then you do not actually have free will. But if your choices come from nothingness, then you have free will. But claiming that you have free will is also saying that you claim that you are God, which most religious fundamentalists do not agree with. They think God is separate from them and creation. Argument from determinism is that if something can only come from something, then determinism is correct and you cannot have free will. But this is dangerous to religious thinkers because then that would also mean that sin cannot exist since sin is a freely chosen act against God. You cannot be held responsible morally if the causes of responsibility go back infinitely. Compatibilism seems to be the correct way of viewing the relationships between free will and determinism. Consciousness isn't entirely free because it needs to limit itself in order to experience itself. Neither is Consciousness mechanistic. The past/future don't exist outside The Eternal Moment, so extreme determinism isn't right either. The correct answer lies in the balance and non duality of freewill and determinism. Think of it like Free Will is the Yin and Determinism is the Yang. Just like how the Universe is hot and cold, dark and light, and neither one or the other. Convincing a Religious Person What God Really Is My thoughts on all of this are that everything you see around you comes from nothingness. There is no such thing as an infinite regress because everything goes back into nothing and not something. Infinite regress assumes the past exists, but you have never experienced the past, only the present. Infinite regress does not exist, only an Infinite Process. For instance, you can look at a pencil and can use your mind to trace the ''causes'' back forever. But that isn't because it is an infinite regress. That is because the Present Moment is an Infinite Moment and can keep imagining past/future forever in this Infinite Moment/Process. All of your thoughts tracing a pencil ''back'' is actually one thought of an Infinite amount of thoughts occurring in this Uncaused Moment. Consciousness is Uncaused. What would cause consciousness? Everything you trace as a cause is Consciousness! Everything you experience or define as a cause is occurring within Consciousness! A pencil is nothing but a figment of Consciousness. Every object, sound, perception, music, art, brain, and person is a figment of Consciousness! The cause of a pencil is Nothing! But Infinite Consciousness can imagine ''causes'' forever because Existence is Forever and is Uncaused! There is no such thing as an Infinite Regress (never has and never will) only Infinite Consciousness! What atheists call the Infinite Regress is actually ''God'' or Infinite Consciousness! I actually do not prefer the term God. I think The Force is more accurate. Think of what you call God or The Force as being Gravity. Gravity is God! Why do you think George Lucas calls the most fundamental substance of the universe, The Force? He is pointing to Gravity, which is a figment of Consciousness. The Jedi are using The Force (or Gravity) to manipulate Gravity!! God is Gravity, Consciousness, The Force. So yes, you have free will but you also don't. Black and white thinking is one of the main problems of the religious mind. What are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree? Share your insights.

Razard86, in my humble opinion, you didn't answer the question of OBEler. But maybe OBEler got it, and I didn't. The other beings/perspectives don't collapse or end when you or OBEler (or I) die/end. Indras Net and Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness (which we really are, already now, we just "forget" all other perspectives/beings) will continue fine without all of "us". To think it all ends if a certain perspective is switched off is solipsistic madness. Thinking the Totality stops when one separate perspective is shut off... Its like looking a bit too deep into the pond like Narcissus did, and boosting it with the power of an Infinity of Gods. Don't you intuit that the exactly same consciousness/Nothingness that you are is every other being? When I look at other beings, I intuit the same consciousness that I really am (and every being is). Their mindstream arisings arise in that Nothingness/Consciousness exactly as in mine. There is no difference. That Nothingness is the essence of everything, all perspectives, every appearance in Reality. Nondual, infinite Nothingness, Reality itself. The same Nothingness/Consciousness that we all are can continue very well without you and me, and anybody else. It can't go anywhere. "It" is already everyhting, everyone, infinite and total. You only get problems with answering these questions if you confuse Totally Empty Consciousness/Nothingness with something not so empty. Like a totally empty separate self/witness, with some individuality still left, hovering in a nondual field. Especially easy to get there with psychedelics. Or even worse: "Thinking" ones way there, watching one Youtube-video or two too many... Going down that road, one has to use construct funny concepts like Infinity of Gods (very nondual indeed), and other Solipsistic funny stuff, making space for a separate self blown up to God-like proportions. The funny thing with Solipsism is: If you proclaim you are the only one having a sentient perspective, every one else having also sentience and consciousness knows that you are, well, a bit nuts... Probably this here is peak solipsistic/Infinity-of-Gods madness. The top level to where you can drive a still separate self Gestalt, proclaiming it is God and that there are an Infinity of other Gods. But hey, what do I know.... And now please throw some arguments from the Absolute Side of the Street at me Bon Voyage Water by the River

Lets take Ken Wilber take on that, on which I agree: The Ego as functional character handling daily life stays. The enlightened ones have strong egos, and left their mark on the world. They knew/know what they really are. Hard to shake that first-hand-knowledge of ones True Identity, so they are not easily scared away. The separate-self-arisings/Gestalt/structure: What goes in True Self Realization are the separate-self-arisings, or the exclusive identifying with the character ....even if the separate-self remaining is its only an empty witness-anything basking in Nonduality, but with some subtle Individuality (=separateness) still intact - The usual psychedelic hang-over separate-self-identity still haunting a not so selfless/empty mindstream). The separate self arisings as "identity" are then replaced by being Reality itself, CONTAINING a hopefully functional character/Ego. The separate self is dead after realizing ones True Deep Identity. Literally. If its not dead, its not Full Enlightenment. Why? True Identity=Nothingness, manfesting Reality/Totality and being its essence, nondual and infinite. But nothing specific you can point to. Perceptions perceiving themselves. The separate self arisings, including one of its main components/building blocks, NARCISSM/self-grandiosity, get killed/transcended/no longer believed/cut off/seen as fake illusion objects moving in oneself, and discarded on that Deep Identity Shift of Full Enlightenment.... ... Not the functional character (which some also call Ego). One doesn't get stupid and cuts that off, and remains a stumbling nutcase ever after.... Problem with the term Ego often is: Ego=functional character arisings PLUS separate self arisings. Because our society fuses these two Gestalt-structures as one, because it doesn't know any better and doesn't have much examples to the contrary. ... because the separate self arisings (and especially NARCISSM/self-grandiosity) are recognized as being actually one of the largest defense-block against the realization of ones True Identity, Nothingness/Reality. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Very True. The concept "everything is just imagination" doesn't help one a bit if the suffering of the separate self still "grips" and is not transcended on a stable basis. And it grips/holds until Full Enlightenment, to varying degrees. And Karma, or cause & effect, or the consistence of this Bardo/Life, is very very high in this life/bardo/incarnation, compared for example to a dream. If you "shoot yourself in the knee"-Karma-wise (or literally), it will be with you for the rest of ones life.... Not like in the dream, where the wound is gone when you wake up. And if one goes fully from the relative side of the street to the absolute side of the street: When all is imagined, or better said a manifestation of the One Reality without a second (its not imagined by a separate/self ego, or one of the infinite perspectives in Indras Net, but by the Whole Reality/Nothingness), there is no difference between "real" or "imagined". One doesn't need to classify it with the concept "imagined" vs. the concept "real/self-existing". It just is. Appearing in The One Reality without a second. And it all follows certain patterns, or Karma, cause and effect, at least in this world/Lila. So what is the point labeling it "imagined", if one is clearly still in the claws of Karma/suffing and separate self? Other than spiritual bypassing? What is the benefit? As long as one suffers, it appears as very real.... or who would suffer if "its only imagined". And telling somebody who suffers "hey, its only imagined, believe me and you can stop suffering now".... yeah, works great, shows a lot of empathy and compassion, and helps the poor sould for sure a lot... The Tibetans are in this business for 1000 years+. They have seen a lot of mis-use of jargon from Enlightened Ones misused by not-so-enlightened-ones. And the outcome of that have been for example statements like this: "Although my view is higher than the sky, my respect for the cause and effect of actions [or Karma] is as fine as grains of flour." - Padmasambhava There is a lot of wisdom in that quote... Water by the River

Yes, very good point you write. And very important. Steven Wolinsky has once said and written: An experience of the Absolute is just that: An experience of the Absolute. It is not the Absolute itself, which is the True You/Reality. But an experience that the True You/Reality is having. In Itself, in the Infinite Groundless Totality of Infinite Consciousness/Reality. In Nothingness, as Halaw (God is Nothingness) calls it, to avoid any "positive" property being attached to the Absolute. Which is infinite, which is another word for "no positive quality at all besides being Reality itself", or: Nothingness. IT contains all possible infinite qualities. If the True You is Nothingness/Absolute/Reality, then when "Infinite Consciousness" tries "to look back over its shoulder" so to say (which it really can't, because IT is everything/the Totality), and experience OF NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS arises. And paradoxically that experience arises IN the infinite Reality that one is. But that "experience of the Absolute/True You" that can be induced by looking into the Absolute Empty Abyss/Nothingness that one really is IS not true You. Because its an experience of the Emptiness/Nothingness/Absolute that one truly is. But doing that often enough "drives the point" home, making One understand that One is really totally empty, Nothing or Nothingness at all, and with that including everything. Reality. Facilitating the Deep Identity Level Shift towards Nothingness/Reality itself, making ones mindstream conform more to the enlightened mindstream. Here, it gets quite paradoxical (but its totally logical once experienced/understood), and couldn't be different. Nice metaphor of Massaro: The Water-Pistol imagined in Infinite Nothingness. Imagine an infinite vast nothingness, nothing there at all. Infinite. Boundaryless. No change happening, so no time. Nothingness initially not aware of itself, but with the potential for sentience/being aware of arisings manifested/imagined in itself. Then, a Water-Pistol is imagined: One suddenly has object, subject, limitations, imagined appearances, a you looking at the water pistol. And if that water-pistol moves: time and change. And if it disappears, Nothingness again. Like in Deep Sleep, unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience and subject-object, if the water-pistol reappears again. If the water-pistol is not there: Infinite Consciousness again in its totally empty version (which is always here anyway, Infinite Reality itself), like before your parents were born. Buddhist systems somtimes uses that example/metaphor in a variation: The dreamer and the dream. The dream also happens/appears in True You. Similiar to the dream happening in the dreamer, being made of the "sustance" of the dreamer, or being imagined by it. Both examples (looking back over its should, and Water pistol) are not the "real thing", but nice approximations that helped me a lot to silence the mindstream, make it rest in its true nature.... And having the right view (like described above and the previous post) boosts the cycle of (or prevents it getting stuck) meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality, -> meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality and so .... ... until at some point the mindstream conforms to the real state of Reality, and Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment can happen, which is a sudden, clear, deep final shift of Ones Identity towards ever having been Infinite Reality itself, never possibly could be anything different, throwing out any and all mistaken separate self-identity-arisings/I-thoughts/I-feelings (or understanding their illusory nature when they arise in oneself in real-time, and transcending/seeing them as objects moving in oneself, and watching them elaborate/arise, or just cutting them off). Nice thing is: It is un-gaslight-able. Why? Because the gaslighting would occur in what? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Also, there are not stages to go further. Because where would they occur? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Some interesting and beautiful stuff/manifestation/its mechanisms of Infinite Reality, or rather its manifested side, the wonderful Multiverse can still be explored and celebrated, but: why allow any negative "grasping stress" arising in oneself for the experience (temporary by definition!) of more understanding/awakening to the next n+1 experience of understanding or experiencing more of the infinite possible worlds/experiences of this wonderful show? Hint: God/Reality "itself" will continue to explore the infinity of infinities of the manifested "side" of Reality forever and ever and ever.... That (Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment) can happen when all world-appearances is seen as mere imagined appearance happening/"floating" in the groundless Nothingness/True You/Reality, and all "subjective" separate-self arisings are seen as mistaken identity arisings in oneself, getting replaced by the True Deep Identity of Infinite, Groundless, Totally Empty and mere appearance Absolute Reality itself). And then, welcome home to a home you never really left. Concluding the journey that never really happened. Only appeared to do so. that includes at that stage ending trying to force it (because it has to be automized without a separate-self-I "doing" them, because who/what could try to force it? Well, the separate self. Which would re-enforce it again). Tricky until the end... with best regards from Maya The paradoxes of that advanged stage are described by the way very nicely in Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra system, preferably descibed in "Pointing out the Great Way, Brown". Please excuse my long musings... Hope nobody feels lectured too much. Selling Water by the River

And since the True Oneself is still there (by definition) in such empty "horror" states (no observer/subject/witness, or "death without end" as you call it), what one thought one was before is just an appearance/arising/illusion/FAKE. What One really is is perceptions perceiving themselves, nondual, no self with any quality left besides just pure empty awareness watching its own arisings, totally nondual, perceptions perceiving themselves. Also: Since "one" is still there in these observerless-death-horror-states, apparently what has dropped away was some sort of temporary illusion, by definition. So its some sort of Illusion-death-horror-experience, because one is apparently still there to tell about it, and to experience it. That is where the "permanent" or "always here/never not not right here" aspect of ones True Identity becomes useful to identify illusion/temporary arising, and the real (No-)Thing. Steven Norquist describes that like a nice Horror-novel: "Haunted Universe: The True Knowledge of Enlightenment ". When you had enough time in these states, the scary/horror part drops away totally, and is replaced by the bliss of these nondual and empty states. Which is then very(!) lovely. One has a human/ego, contained within Oneself, arising in Oneself, but is no longer only that. One is the Whole Thing, and ever has been. The initial "Horror-Reaction" depends on the speed of being dropped into that Nondual Empty Totality. Psychedelics deliver probably the fastest "drop". When it happens slowly and gradually, there isn't too much Horror in some cases, maybe some scary moments (that is me?!?. But what about "real" me??? . Oh, its the other way round... ), but one gets used to that. All that is lost is an Illusion. What is gained is a Deep Identity Shift, fixing the former mistaken identity/illusion of the separate self-Gestalt-arisings, into becoming the "Whole Thing/Reality itself", and even more important: Into being eternal/invincible (no moving parts anymore that can be hurt or disintegrate, nothing that can get destroyed or even change), into being the whole Reality being able to manifest/imagine anything wanted in Itself, being made of Itself... A total Freedom, because one will never suffer since no psychological suffering arisings will ever "grip" again (at least not in this life, if the brain doesn't disintegrate like Alzheimer and so on) a total Fullness because the Love/Fullfillment/bliss freely flowes from ones Core, and a total freedom from fear, because even if in future reincarnations/shows, the Illusion of separate self-arisings will arise again, it will not affect ones true core, infinite absolute Nothingness/Reality. and probably a certain momentum/Karma of being pulled to get there again in the next play/show/life/reincarnation, if one is inclined into believing something like that. But hey, maybe being a dinosaur next time is more fun, so I am flexible on the concept of reincarnation/Karma and so on.... The Real Me will always be there, can't be not there.... The following quite is like a mathematically precise short definition of the real state of things, that deep Identity Shift of Enlightenment: "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche But the dropping of that Illusion is "protected" by Maya/Lila with the strongest Horror-arisings there can be..... The Horror of being NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS. That experience is like the Wizard of Oz: Appears to be scary, but doesn't really exist. It also only just arises. Funny construction, hm? Selling Water by the River PS: I am not belittling the Horror-Death-reaction described. It is exactly that, but on the next step/steps it becomes clear it has always been like that, and only an illusion dropped that has never really been the case, only appeared so. Then it gets relaxed again... But can feel like the Boogeyman being real in the beginning. Enlightenment is realizing the separate self (the appearance/Gestalt of its merely arising thoughts/feelings/sensations and so on) doesn't exist (the "Horror-Moment" for some) NEVER EXISTED (the big relieve of realizing the mistaken identity of the past), and WILL never (really) exist the Real Oneself/Reality will never get confused or suffer, because its fully empty Infinite Consciousness/NOTHINGNESS/Reality without any specific qualities, but with the potential for awareness if a world-appearance is imagined within it) , but only can contain confusion/suffering arisings of a newly imagined separate self). then, all is good.... and great fun to look forward Francis Lucille: Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of Ignorance. Infinite Consciousness/Reality doesn't worry/suffer. and all of that is impossible to fully get before the Gateless Gate, pretty clear afterwards... PSPS: When it feels like Horror: Good, one is getting closer Further, Jed McKenna-style! And when there is never a fear-reaction when beginning to intuit deeper the rediscovered identity, then its probably not the real thing.

Long story short: I had similiar experiences like you describe concering meditation ("Basically it has done exactly what "sitting in silence" sounds like it would do: Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does."). Then I read a lot about many different meditation system and traditions, hundreds of books. At some point, I found what changed everything for me: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. A "synthetic summary" of the Mahamudra-system, from Daniel P. Brown, Associate Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School, who read the texts in their original language. He also wrote his dissertation about the deep structure similiarities (and differences) of the main meditation systems of Tibetan Buddhism (Mahamudra), Theravada, and Yoga (Yoga Sutras of Patanjali). Then I did that for over a decade, read the book and its main passages probably somehting like 10 times plus (and many other Mahamudra/Dozgchen books), understood the more sophisticated parts (Stage 3, Yoga of One Taste, or of the simultaneous/nondual mind and Stage 4, Nonmeditation-Yoga, getting rid of the last remnants of the separate self) after getting substantial practice (certain part on the pillow, large part off the pillow in daily life whenever I didn't to fully concentrate for example on attention-capturing analytic tasks. So most of the day it was possible doing that). That got the meditation/mindfulness going during most of the day. All of that together created enough momentum to get something which feels like the Endohuasca-system going, when things got nondual, empty, groundless, appearances nondual and not so solid&"out there" but more lucid/mere appearance, and a lot of bliss. My theory is that when enough momentum is there (and the separate self arisings got seen through/transcended sufficienlty), something like this starts: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ . At least feels like this. Triggered by meditation. But I would not have needed that decade, maybe a few years if done with good coaching. I agree with you that you need massive momentum. What happens when "Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does." is orders of magnitude lower than having "ego destroyed by something serious, like a release dose of toad". Problem with only tripping instead of also meditating is that: Its not permanent, and significant structures of the separte self remain not transcended (although very subtle ones, you don't see and transcend these during the trip, however much one thinks that one has done so). which can (but doesn't have to) result in a pretty interesting and funny Narcissm-Show of a separate-self/Ego still well and alived, confusing separate self/ego remains with the Totality/God. Shortform something like: "Psychiatrist: I don't know your problem yet, so so its best when you start right from the beginning. Patient: In the beginning, I created the heavens and the earth." It can also end in the more humble version of not getting rid of the usual suffering cycles of the separate-self/ego chasing for experiences that promise to mitigate the discontent, but never permanently and fully deliver. If the ego elements/separate self elements kicks in later when sobre, they have not been transcended. That is what good and efficient meditation, done over a long time, can do: Get the separate self arisings out of the way that block ones reckognition of ones True nature. That consists mainly of two parts: the former subject (separate self), that is finally realized as Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness in which everything arises, including the former object "external world", which appeared as solid&out there (so not nondual), which finally becomes nondual and mere appearance/illusion/imagined. Short form: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche When you have that in daily life, the bliss that belongs to the package of the True Self gets delivered on top. Because without bliss, the normal cycle of suffering and chasing experiences to ease that discontent/suffering continues. That is pretty much the core of the separate self, the happy merry-go-round of chasing some experiences that never finally fulfills. And to conclude: Yes, I know IT is all nondual, infinite, imagined illusion, and so on and so on. But to get there, at least I prefer it to describe it in this way, using relative language (which by definition is based on duality). Why? Because its the only way to communicate, and something like that written above would have helped me tremendously 5 or 10 years ago. But everbody is different. If it doesn't help the one reading this, please be so kind to consider it as a buffet where you can take what you want and ignore the rest, and please do the Black Eyed Peas "Where is the love" video instead of the Bear move of the videos in the signature, or "The last duel of buster scruggs". Namaste! And of course (if you are so inclined) use psychedelics, for getting previews, getting a feel what its all about, and to blast some walls that show up on the way. I have written extensively about these topics in my previous posts. If you are so inclined, please check them for more details. All of that is just based on my experience and observations, and reading about past and historic cases. Maybe you find it helpful, or at least as an additional perspective. All the best on your journey. Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

> I want to be clear that 1) psychedelics and/or 2) meditating for thousands of hours is not required, or even optimal, for the absolute within every form to fully realize itself. These practices may be highly beneficial in some cases, but they are not universally prescribed. Anyone claiming otherwise doesn't understand the unconditional and inevitable diversity of the pathways used by the absolute to dissolve misidentifications and directly realize itself, within its dream. I agree that there are many paths up the mountain. And there are cases where neither meditations nor psychedelics was necessary. Ramana, Anandamayi Ma, and others. But at least I personally know of many more contemporary and historic examples where either meditation with or without psychedelics brought realization, than examples where these two techniques were not used. >I have noticed a general bias in this forum from people using psychedelics, insisting that their realizations are otherwise impossible. I understand the reasons for this bias, due to the extreme states that psychedelics can produce. However, it is simply untrue that these extreme states are necessary or universally optimal for awakening/enlightenment. I am not opposed to them, but I do oppose any mandate of psychedelics as a shortcut to absolute realization. We are also aligned that these extreme states are not necessary for Enlightenment. And psychedelics for sure are not necessary for realization. And probably they also have to potential to blow up ones narcissism to God-sized dimension, preventing the final drop into Nothingness or becoming fully Nothing, and Everything, or realizing the Absolute. But used in an intelligent, smart and humble way with intelligence and insight, they can be nice tools in addition to for example meditation and other paths/methods. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche When having to choose on betting for meditation or psychedelics, I would always choose meditation because if its either or, I have yet to see a stable Full Realization coming from psychedelics only. But maybe its out there, I don't know. I know many cases (contemporary and historic) where meditation did the job. Luckily, for most people, it is not either or. And if it is not either/or, I would recommend both, with a focus on meditation. > I directly realize the absolute beyond the physical senses, and it is a perpetual state of being, free from psychedelics. Yes I don't ask anyone to validate or invalidate my direct experience. Instead, I sincerely encourage whoever reads this to find their own internal path to the absolute, rather than adopting any universal prescription. Everyones path up the mountain is unique. Yet, traveling (or at least starting on) a path that many already have traveled and reached the top of the mountain is maybe a good starting point. And then, one is always free to improvise and follow ones intuiton/heart. And now I am going to read some of your archive of previous posts, looking for what you shared about your personal path, because I find your posts interesting, and I like them. Besides the path of suffering you mentioned, what specifically did you do/practice? How did it all develop? Water by the River

Everything unreal is imagined, and everything is unreal Imagination is simply misidentification by the real for something it is not. Absolute reality is beyond thingness and nothingness. It's paradoxical to the mind, and can't be comprehended, only directly realized.

Because what continues after the moment of death is again relative appearance, a "newly" imagined visual field, arisings in the opening of Absolute Reality that you are. The karmic tendencies of your current mind-stream, which aggregate and constitute your Soul that passes from life to life, have not been enlightened before you committ suicide. You have not stabilized your True Nondual Nature yet. Else, you normally wouldn't commit suicide, because it is your creation, and you would life the bliss/love flowing from your own True Core. All of that (Soul, this world, the Bardo afterwards, any other manifestation) is relative manifestation happening in the Absolute Reality/Nothingness that You really are. So it doesn't really exist, but appears to do so. And how much that can hurt (appearing to do so), one knows probably quite well enough from ones current life to take it serious, even if its essence is only Nothingness/Absolute Reality. But if your tendencies/Karma/Souls have not developed in this life to see through the illusion, that will come back again in the next life. Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour. – Padmasambhava And if you kill yourself while your soul still gravitates in the illusion of separation/suffering right now, why should it be different in the existence that reappears after death? The True You will still be there, but the relative mindstream of the reconstituting separate-self will not get any wiser doing stupid things (suicide). So you if you are not going to finish second class because you drop out of school, you are not going to be put into third grade. And how much fun second grade was in that case if you drop out of school you know quite well... And of course dying and approaching the Absolute/Clear Light of Death feels wonderful, like Infinite Love. You can have that experience also while alive with Nirvikalpa. Or drop some Psychedelics/5-MeO. See also all the Near Death Experiences. But when you come out of these states again, the whole enchilada of states manifests again backwards. A similiar process happens in the Dying process after having experiences to so called "Clear Light of Absolute Reality". Nothingness but with a certain afterglow/"knowledge/acess" still available after the experience and while having it, although there is no more duality. As for example the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol , The Tibetan Book of the Dead After having falling out from the Absolute/Clear Light of Absolute Reality/Nothingness, the not so funny stages of the reincarnation-process start, and since you are not familiar with these states/bardos, "relative you" gets frightened/not so infinite loving again... and then after suicide going back to second grade again, to finish the class, so to say. Don't worry, nobody gets lost. All make to the finish line at some point. Since you can't loose your true nature. And I would recommend not walking out of school (suicide), not making second grade, and repeating that 20 times. But of course, its a free country, and the point of the ride is the ride. If you want to repeat it 20 times, nothing will stop you. But why knowingly "shoot yourself in the foot", resisting your own manifestation/show, think yourself of clever and shoot yourself, and thinking that ends school and you go directly to Infinite Love permanently? And I honestly think Leo should add to "Death is Infinite Love"-statements something like: Only in the first stages of the dying process if you have not stabilized this love on a permanent basis before death/suicide, including experiencing Absolute Reality/True You on a constant basis. What follows afterwards experiencing the Absolute/Clear Light of Death in the dying process can be a lot less than Infinite Love. Like in, for example right here and now, depending on the mindstream. Any fool can read anything to the statement of "Death is Infinite Love", and aim unknowingly directly for repating 2nd class 20 times+, thinking he has graduated PhD in "Infinite Love ever after". Karma/Cause-Effect also holds for Leo & your forum & teaching, and having a track-record of (unnecessary) suicides on this board, is... -fill in the blanks of your liking-. In my opinion less than smart-as-can-be. Anyways, as always, bon voyage to all of you! Respectfully Yours Selling Water by the River

Nice post. Let me add some musings from my perspective. >But there is a catch. You see through all the egos games. If you speak from an Enlightened perspective you will not be understood. Every ego is afraid of absolute truth. Yes. The separation/separate self/Ego HAS to be scared by/avoid the truth, by definition. Else it would end soon.... Not so good for a nice, long, interesting game/show/Lila.... But at the same time, every separate being is deeply drawn back and attracted by its True Nature, which fragrence/bliss it never fully forgot, and only partly manages to avoid, closing down to this bliss and the following various projects to get it back via a variety of experiences . And these two contradicting drives (Pull of Illusion and Pull of Truth) drive the separate self sometimes quite nuts... >The final stage is to do activities just for the pure joy. You start to walk the path of appreciation. Yes. One couldn't do different. And it couldn't work different than that. Nothing left to force oneself to do something one doesn't want. No more internal conflicts, conflicting motivations. Luckily, if you have made it this far, your motivations are normally aligned with the Universe, because you have understood and trained compassion for a long time to stabilize resting in your True Nature/Awakening, see below. >You can also start getting attached to trying to alleviate suffering but that will take years of practice because egos will blame you for their feelings and accuse you of being the source of their suffering. They will demonize you and call you a victim blamer, arrogant, a narcissist, and a gaslighter. You will need to cultivate a deep compassionate patience should you choose to engage in helping others who suffer. Wise words. That is why in all Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist training systems compassion has a nearly (or fully) equal status to the training of wisdom, transcendence and Awakening. It is considered as an equal companion, laying the foundation, of wisdom/transcendence/Awakening/Enlightenment. Strange, is it, if the same systems consider all the be an Illusion, a magic show? So why do they do that? In relative reality (our life), one can not maintain stabilized Awakening (let alone Enlightenment), when you are constantly annoyed by the Truth-avoidance-mechanisms of ones fellow separate-selves, and react with negative emotions towards that. These negative emotions/reactions do shut down ones nondual experience of the visual field being groundless mere appearances hoving in Infinite Nothingness. And more easily to understand: They shut down ones love, which is the same as the acceptence of the here and now, which is the only thing happening/being imagined right now, and actually the True You in a nondual way. So these emotions are just incompatible with keeping the nondual realization ongoing, an auto-immune-reaction on parts of your own True Being, cutting nonduality in two creating duality. And that doesn't... feel good . At least my experience. And that of many others. By the way, if something happening requires immideate "not-accepting"-action, like running away from an attacking bear, that is of course also done. Staying open and fearless, and not constricting the love/acceptence of this present moment doesn't exclude acting wisely. It is not so wise and smart to serve as food for the attacking bear. There are better things to do with your separate-self-vehicle than that.... Only Empty Mirrors are stupid enough to get their frames teared down by confused attacking bears, see my Signature of the post below, but that is another story as explained in the Job Profile for Empty Mirrors. My theory (experience) is that these "less-than-loving", non-so-compassionate, non accepting/closing down emotions cut off the Endohuasca-system: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ , solidifying the mere-appearance infinite nondual field of lucid world-arisings hovering in infinite Nothingness, made out of Nothingness as its essence, and making it solid&external or appearing "out there", duality: the "normal" state of the separate self, often less than loving, imprisoned in duality most or all of the time. So it is impossible to live in a stabilized Awakening (let alone Enlightenment) without deep compassion for other not yet realized beings. You can not blame an acorn for not being an oak tree yet. That would be rather stupid. All acorns got and are Buddha-Nature (or can realize their potential by becoming an oak tree). It is for example not the way society raises children, which is a similiar topic. We don't blame children for not being adults yet, but acknowledge their potential of being adults themselves, and raise them up to that potential. Every time I write Selling Water by the River, it is to acknowledge by the way that what is being doing is Illusion. But a nice one! What else is there to do? And since there is only appearance/illusion, there is no difference between reality and appearing illusion in some way. And Karma/cause effect fully works/holds, works like a clockwork, driven by infinite intelligence. Even if its only imagined... that "I" am "selling" something that is freely available to all (the Water of the River). Actually, there is only the Water of the River. That the water of the River is the Buddha Nature of every being, the Nothingness that is the essence of all of Reality. So nothing that could be superior to anything else at the end of the day... Actually, there are no others to safe. And yet, that is what tends to appear to happen normally. And should happen on a relative level, as it is in the nature of things... And that is paradoxical from before the Gateless Gate, but not afterwards... It is only the True You manifesting in endless perspectives.... sometimes appearing (only appearing) confused in some mindstreams, and in some not. The "Core" never gets confused, since it is Nothing(-ness). It contains the confused or unconfused mind-stream arisings. And Maya is the great seductress (hey, "somebody" has to orchestrate the illusion-show. Else it wouldn't be there! ) but there are even more elements build into our reality to guide souls back to their true nature. One of the mightiest and most powerful ones are probably: What is more attractive? An Ego/separate self preaching arrogantly with self-importance and narcissism from upon high, or a being radiating love, compassion and wisdom/bliss? and guess what feels better for the being doing that why does every being yearn for bliss/peace, intuiting that that is what one really is? In a practical experience, compassion/love increases ones realtive happiness in every way. A happy, integrated "relative" life, delivering on the stages of Maslow what the separate self need to thrive and not scream for attention most of the time, resulting in a separate self that is much more easy to transcend than a drama-show-separate-self, that constantly requires attention and maintenance, and suffers lack on the lower levels of Maslows pyramid (financials&job, friends/partner, health, security needs, belonging-needs, self-esteem, self-actualization...) And also speedens up self-realization significantly, or even enabling it, and stabilizes it. That even shows in the fact that countless studies asking humans about their deepest/strongest sources of relative happiness in life is human connection (which is based in large parts on love/compassion, or resonating deeply with "another" soul, seeing and being seen, which then yields natural compassion out of that resonance. At least if its done in a healthy way). Selling Water by the River PS: Ken Wilber: Wake up, Grow Up, Show Up

I agree that large parts of Buddhism/"Hinduism" and any other Spiritual Tradition had major impacts from psychedelics, and genetically/"karma-developed" realizers. Yet, most of them did some kind of meditation, often for very long times. And I don't believe (personal opinion, based on what I have seen) that only tripping will get you really to a deep identity with your True Identity, Absolute Reality itself. Especially its essence, which Hawal for example calls Nothingness (because the essence of the Always Here Reality is totally empty, Nothing(ness) at all. Only this way (totally empty), It/True You can be totally infinite and manifest anything. For sure, ignoring or not using, or advising against psychedelics, or the "hurricane" to blow away 95%+ of the separate self arisings/clouds covering the sun(True Nature, see some of my last posts) is in my opinion not the most efficient and integral method. Why not use these tools as a preview to the fulltime thing of stabilized Awakening, enabling to perceive the visual field as lucid hologram-like mere appearances hovering in infinite timeless Nothingness and disabling/transcending the separate self arisings from a level of separate self bodymind mindstrem to being a mostly empty witness but still some kinds of very very subtle layers of Individuality/separateness still going on, like an empy-nothing-consciousness watching (or even being) some kind of mere appearance-infinity. But still with some very very subtle levels of the separate self arisings still active. and these very fine last layers/filters/clouds of the remaining separate self arisings/individuality/being not the Totality at the deepest Identity Level fully, prevent the full realization, which would make IT stable after coming out of the trip. To become fully Everything/Totality on a stable basis, one has to be totally Nothing(-ness). At least for me, this seems totally logical in theory, and is also demonstrated in practice time and time again of what kills the solidity of the visual field (and makes the visual field mere empty groundless appearance hovering in Nothingness) and its "externalness/not nonduality", making "It" one seamless infinite nondual Totality/whole: Being the Nothingness fully,and stabilizing in that. Short form: "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche So, why did the actively psychedelic using traditions either disappear (Vajrayana in medieval India), or go underground in secrecy? My theory is: When you got a monastery with meditation technique (that is maybe not the most efficient one), bringing less than a few percent of the people to Enlightenment, and supplying that with the goooood psychedelic stuff ... (which was not so gooood in the past, nearly nobody had 5-MeO for example, mainly Mushrooms and LSD/Ergot/... and some DMT. Well, you can imagine the show of the ladies and gentlemen inside which are by definition confusing in the beginning phases of their Psychonaut/tripping-journey parts of their separte self arisings/Ego with the Infinite Field of Totality hovering as mere appearance in groundless eternal Nothingness when they take the psychedelics. that probably has led to an Ego-show of the highest degree of only partly transcended Egos/separate selfs.... Imagine who would not like to join the club/monastery if rumours of tripping occur? the support from the community to such an institution would have been shut down after quite fast after a few scandals of "not-so-enlightened-living" But most importantly (and at least my experience): To stabilize Awakening in daily life, which brings the bliss and freedom from psychological suffering) that everybody (wants independend of outer circumstances), one needs a deep identity shift towards ones True Nature, which is Nothingness as "Subject"/or better Deep-Identity with the nondual Totality and Nothingness (Halaw) as its essence, which means no remaining separate self arising not spotted and "not believed"/"not hypnotized by"/not transcended/not cut-off fast enough. and that takes time, hundreds if not thousands of hours resting in empty Suchness (which can then already be done in daily life, but the beginning phase without some (or a lot) sitting/meditation is probably difficult. and one doesn't get enough time in the psychedelic state to do that, and even more important if you meditate, you get direct feedback on if you transcend your character/separate self arisings/Ego or not: If you don't, then the visual field doesn't get shimmering mere apperance, but stays rock-solid and "out-there/external/dual. If you just drop psychedelic, it is probably impossible to not project certain remaining aspects of the separate self on the Totality, leaving it not totally empty of separate self/subject, but a mix of the Truth and remaining separate-self-illusion-arisings. and Everything Else (the infinite Totality of the visual field/"external" world hovering as mere groundless imagined appearance in the always here Nothingness. again, the very nice summary of Kalu Rinpoche: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. All of that means that I believe that one has to and should do both, psychdelics AND meditation, preferably an efficient meditation-system (broken record of mine: I recommend for example Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown, and in general Mahamudra/Dzochen), I have written in my past posts about this topic): get Awakenings and previews of the real state of things via psychedelics, and hopefully don't get the separate self/ego blown up by that to epic proportions by projecting the properties of the epic/awe-inspring Absolute Reality on the separate self individuality arisings (that is Maya giving you a hugely seductive kiss) and get deeply established in ones True Identity (Nothingness), so that one never forgets ones True Nature in daily life never loosing the Deep Identity of being the Totality, the visual field staying nondual and as lucid empty mere appearances. I have written about the Endohuasca-System, which is (I believe, and also my experience) triggered by stabilizing these empty states of transcending the separate self: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ never loosing the bliss of ones own True Identity One of the largest experiments (both in scope of people doing it, and psychonauts having gone as fare as ever before, and further) is being conducted right here in this community/forum, and in general with the ongoing psychedelic revival. We are sitting in the prime seats to see if those belittling meditation (and emphasizing only psychedelics or also only meditation, one or the other) or those that recommend both methods to be integrated and used together) end up living a beautiful, satisfying and blissful life, stabilizing their True Deep Identity in daily life, and explore more of the depths of the Kosmos. My personal belief is that the Totality gives one a lot of insight into the structure of the manifested/relative side of Absolute Reality by doing mainly (or only) psychedelics, but so far, as I see it, Absolute Reality doesn't give the full bliss and stable Awakening in daily life to those only or mostly or only doing psychedelics. Opposite examples welcome, I have not seen one so far that fully stabilized ones True Nature as Deep Identity (and the ensuing Liberation), neither historical nor contemporary. Even if it exists/existed/or will happen, think about what that says about the success rates of the paths psychedelic only and meditation. I also assume, since Absolute Reality is all there is, infinitely intelligent, all powerful, certain areas of exploration of the Multiverse are blocked for part-time-separate-selves only doing tripping, but falling from grace/loosing Awakening after the trip. As this worlds contains many many traps that stabilized the illusion of Maya/Duality/Separate Self, from what I see this minefield doesn't end when doing psychedelics, but actually starts there at the highest level: Blowing up ones Ego to epic proportions via projecting the separate self arisings/identity onto the properties of the Infinity Absolute Reality is a hugely seductive trap, but blocks the stabilizing of ones True Identiy (fully empty Nothingness -in Halaws definition- Core Identity), and being nondually Everything in daily life. So, ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seatbelts, and watch one of the most interesting shows of the Multiverse developing right here in this forum, and in the psychedelic revival at large... Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River >PS: Can you imagine driving a car then your mind just randomly goes into a Salvia trip? Sometimes I have the feeling that exactly something like that happens with fellow drivers .Luckily, not too often... ( :

Yes it's your conscious choice in which state you want to be in if you want you don't take any physical form and stay in the godstate. But there is beauty in duality you will get bored by being in nothingness state. And remember you are god and god wants to live all these lives in physical form! But if you do not want to you can always have a choice!

I think we are already aligned here: The separate self is an arising appearance, appearing/moving temporarily in You/Reality/Infinite Totality, like any other appearance. Every night in deep sleep its gone. The bullet will also work That is why I mostly write "Separate Self Arisings". "Arisings", to emphasize it is not a really existing "thing", more like a process clouding ones recongition of ones True Identity, but the clouding itself creates an illusion, and is an illusion, not a thing. Technically defined by some as ignorance, or illusion, Maya... All arisings in ones mindstream that make one feel/think that one is not the Totality, but something separate (ranging from Ego/Body-Mind to a Transparent Witness with some last remnants of feeling separate/Individuality or feeling like watching/experiencing the totality). At the end, its all of the same/one essence, like the beautiful example of gold or origami/paper. Same essence, different forms/expressions. I belong not to those demonizing the whole character/body-mind. The more functional it is (health, relationships, financials, the whole Maslow-Pyramid), the easier it is to transcend the separate-self-arisings-part of it. Wilber for example says a strong&healthy ego is easiert to transcend than an ego that hurts in many areas. That is also my experience. The character can also operate without separate-self-arisings. The separate-self-arisings are only an optional part of the character/body-mind. Actually, at least in my experience, once the separate-self-arisings are no longer disturbing ones intuition, one acts much more efficiently/smoothly/successful, much closer aligned to Ones True Core. Once "one" gets out of the way, things run much smoother. Actually, "the" separate self is more a process/structure/Gestalt, "separate-selfing", a verb more than a noun/thing.... Like a process, that can happen, but that can also stop. Then, the True You/Reality, by definition has still to be there, and is of course, as always. The clouds between the sun, that can also evaporate or no longer happen.... and then, welcome home to a home you never left in the first place. It only appeared so. Coming back from a trip that never really happened, only appeared to do so. Thanks for your message, I want to learn to optimize communicating all of that, and I should emphasize this point sometimes more. Water by the River PS: "The dream is absolute truth, the character is not separate from the dream. Therefore the character is also absolute truth." Many (including me) would probalby prefer writing that the essence of the dream or character is Absolute Truth, but not Absolute Truth in itself (which is the Infinite Totality, the One without a second, of which nothing can be finally said) but this depends on the context it is used, and is a question of preference. One can only use pointers to the Absolute Reality of which nothing positive can be said at the end since that would limit it, make it no longer infinite. IT can only be pointed to (the pointers appearing in IT/Absolute Reality), and realized as Ones True Identity. That is why the pointer Nothingness of Halaw (God is Nothingness) is actually in my opinion a beautiful tool. The essence of every appearance is already Nothingness. The essence of every thought, of every "separate self arising" is already Nothingness. The "behind ones head" is it already floating in Nothingness. The visual field is floating in Nothingness already. Once the referent (Enlightenment, realizing ones True Identity as Absolute Reality/Absolute) is in place, one can use signifiers (pointers) to point to it. Before that, all pointers can only show in the direction of that Realization of Ones True Essence. When the referent is in place, something like Bashô "The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop!" can work very precise when said from one person knowing the referent and the corresponding/accompanying states, to another. Much more precise than some pointers like Absolute/Nothingness/Infinite Reality,.... At the "edges of Duality" approaching "that" which can never be made to an object of any kind is challenging business I assume that you mean that, and that its only a preference of writing/pointing.

Warning: Loooong rambling ahead! The deception is what I call (at least for me) Separate-Self-arisings (I-thoughts, I-feeling), that arise with a very high frequency in Oneself (True Self/Reality). That leads to the world appearances manifesting as "external" and "solid/not hologram-like mere appearances". Et voila, the magic show! When one spots them fast enough (separate self arisings) and is familiar with them, and doesn't get captured by them (in my opinion the goal of meditation), the visual field at some point becomes nondual, mere appearance, lucid/hologram-like, hovering in Infinite Nothingness. Then, there is no more deception, since it doesn't "grip". Nothing the "separate self can throw at you" is believed anymore. It just runs/appears in True You/Reality, but is no longer to believed to be more real than mere arising in True You/Reality. Perceptions perceiving themselves in You/Reality, and some practical mind-stream-stuff of the human you have (not are, but have) running in True You/Reality. As long as any of it is still believed, and not transcended as objects/movements/arisings in the True You, one doesn't cross over to the other shore. 3% of still "gripping" and not transcended separate self arisings (very very subtle ones at the end, just mere "Individuality") prevents the full Realization of ones True Identity. They all have to "go". It is like the mindstream runs in oneself, and doesn't capture ones attention. Nothing of it. The mindfulness stays, it is all a magic show. There is no more "external" world, just a magic show of hologram like lucid appearances, hovering in Infinite Nothingness. Suffering (psychological suffering, or resistance to what is here and now) has stopped at that point. Then, it all becomes a magic show. It is totally clear what the essence of the magic show/movie is. Nothingness. without suffering. Sure, the Magic Show is a deception/Illusion. But what else is there to do for the True You? The Real You can not gain or loose ever. But it can manifest the show. And just a disclaimer/warning, because I write very freely from the absolute side of the street, tending to ignore the relative side of the street while writing this way: When you start to think while the separate self is still intact, that you can not gain or loose ever: Well, Maya will give one a nice smack demonstrating that one (as the separate self) can very well suffer, grow and develop, loose and gain. Karma is well and alive when the separate self is not fully transcended). That leads automatically to appreciation of the beauty of the show. Appreciation of the beauty of manifestation. With a certain preference of being interested in all these mechanisms. But being interested not in a grasping way, like suffering when one doesn't get to understand it, but more like: Hey let's go for a walk, and if it rains we don't, and do something else. No big deal anyway.... If there is no appreciation of the Illusion/Show, but disgust/horror/discontentment/anything other than marveling at/with the state of things, I would assume there is still a separate self active/not transcended, that then resists/suffers. I personally find the investigation/exploration of the Multiverse, trying to understand the manifestation mechanism, Alien-anything quite interesting. But it no way leads to me grasping to the beauty and bliss of these experiences of understanding or exploring. If something like that would show up in my mindstream, a reaction would arise like: All nice and well, interesting for sure, but starting egoic/separate self-suffering or grasping for it, no way I am doing that, would be rather not so smart. and lead to suffering/resisting, and shutting down the Endohuasca-System (below).... and that would be it (grasping stopped). Selling Water by the River Some Quotes from Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown "once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind": "Tashi Namgyel calls the two stages prior to experiencing enlightenment recognizing awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] and setting up awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] . One-taste yoga establishes the foundation for awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] to emerge. In non-meditation yoga the practitioner: ...proceeds from the perspective of having seen the benefit of the aforementioned [special] samadhi. Generate a fervent desire for this [awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] ] to increase and continue once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind." Tashi Namgyal, in Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown "The commentary merely alludes to these changes withthe brief passage from Gampopa, "once you have eradicated all the pain from the mind" (TN, p. 5oo).These and other changes, however, are described in much greater detail in the oral tradition, especially by Rechung.'" Rechung says that the practitioner "unties the chakra knots that prevent the full experience of mental and divine bliss, respectively." [the Endohuasca-System of the Body, at least in my theory, see https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ ] Attachment (zhar ba) is transmuted into great enjoyment (dga 'chen).The practitioner finds great bliss (bde chen) simply from experiencing ordinary phenomena as they arise in their own way. The natural spontaneity of the mind is freed. Bliss replaces misery." Tashi Namgyal, in Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown That is how at least developed for me. And the end of the game: "According to Tilopa, such uninterrupted, effortless mindfulness finds no refuge (gtad so) in any particular events of the mind because of their inherent emptiness/clarity, so that awareness-itself turns back on itself and naturally crosses over [to Enlightenment]" "In short, crossing over [to Enlightenment] happens at the time when every single sensory experience—appearance and thought—are viewed as clarity/emptiness and movement/emptiness with absolute certainty." [not 1% of the separate self still untranscended/not cut off/still believed] "Tashi Namgyel's root text explains how nonmeditation yoga ripens in three stages: At the lowest level, it becomes possible to maintain undistracted mindfulness of the simultaneous mind [simultaneous mind = nondual] at any time, so that it is unnecessary to limit the practice to formal meditation sessions. Seeming appearances arise "like a mirage." [mere luminous appearances hovering in Nothingness]. At the middle level,awareness-mindfulness continues day and night. The subtlest flow of shapes that arise is the mind's self-illumination. At the highest level, awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] stays even throughout all these subtle forms [not 1% of the separate self still untranscended/not cut off/still believed, including any feelings/thoughts of Individuality/being separate from the Totality/Reality]. Continuous awakened wisdom/[awakened awareness] in the face of everything experienced is great nonmeditation. (TN, p. 697) I highly recommend the book, it is truly awesome. It is a synthesizing text of the Mahamudra-Tradition, quoting many books of the tradition and integrating them.

Beautiful description. We agree here. Some "technical" musings: At some points, all the pointers (necessarily including duality) collapse. The Reality manifesting them contains them all. What a good pointer can do is shut up the thinking mind and make it rest in suchness, so that the Absolute can reveal itself. To get the clouds away from the sun. I personally like the pointer "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arising is showing up" where the Nothingness is described in such a way points to a specific state (like Nirvikalpa, Deep Sleep, or Cessation). The Absolute is (by definition) still present there. As Nothingness. And I like it because "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arising are showing up" clarifies what is more fundamental: Not the the full illusion-clear-light-show of imagined arisings ("the world"), but the Nothingness "beneath" it. The Absolute essence of manifestation, nondual, Nothingness. The show can disappear, the Nothingness/Absolute not. this "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arisings are showing up" which can also be called the Void or Infinite Potential, (as you do), is a state on the extreme end of the dream, a duality compared to the full show going on, as you write. The nice thing how Halaw (God is Nothingness) uses Nothingness as Absolute is: He describes the Nothingness as present throughout, also while the Dream-Show is active, as the essence of all appearance. Or the Absolute. Halaw uses Nothingness as synonym for the Absolute. Absolute sounds a bit like a thing, although its philosophical definition and the way you use the pointer/signifier pointing to its referent (Absolute Infinite Reality itself , the One without a second) is absolutely correct. The advantage of Nothingness when used for the Absolute is: you can not mistake it with some kind of object, some kind of "thing". But as you correctly write, the Absolute it is neither existence nor non-existence, and because of that neither an Absolute that can be confused with an existing thing, nor Nothingness which can be confused with non-existence, capture Absolute Reality fully. And the Absolute (or Nothingness in the usage of Halaw) is, as you write, "incomprehensible, indescribable, and nameless and it is the absolute essence of it all" [bold markings by me]. Nondual, Oneness, Infinite, One without a second. And Nothingness/Absolute as "its" essence. "The absolute is beyond the dream. It is beyond existence/nonexistence, beyond form/formless, and beyond imagination/emptiness." Madhyamaka-style, the Middle Path. And how to conclude all the musings above? With a pointer that is maybe even better than Absolute or Nothingness? A pointer which at the same time makes the most sense after having passed the Gateless Gates? So with a nice Koan, "technically" the most precise pointer, but a pointer that can be pretty useless before the Gateless Gate. before the Gateless Gate, a Koan is mainly a concentration object, after the Gateless Gate a Koan is the technically most precise pointer to the Reality that contains all pointers/signifiers pointing towards "It". Here it comes: “An ancient pond/ a frog jumps in/ the sound of water.” Water by the River PS: Maybe in the next life, I am done writing about pointers, and only stutter little Koans and smile

@Water by the River i think i can make it less confusing and propose this kind of framing. non physical energy (nothingness) is observing physical energy (coffee table). Ultimately it's just energy observing different manifestations of itself. But it's the primordial formless energy that is observing the manifest formful manifestaion, not the other way around.

As I see it, absolute reality is within everythingness (the cosmos) and nothingness (the void, or infinite potential). However, the cosmos and the void themselves are extreme dualities of the dream. The absolute is beyond the dream. It is beyond existence/nonexistence, beyond form/formless, and beyond imagination/emptiness. It is incomprehensible, indescribable, and nameless and it is the absolute essence of it all. It has aspects (love, seamlessness, immutability, timelessness) but it is beyond attributes.

19 minutes ago, Salvijus said: That's clever. But let me challenge this. Who observes that the coffee table has vanished? There's somone else observing the coffee table coming into existence and then dissapearing. I would agree that observer and the objects of observation are ultimately one, but not the same. Bc if it was the same, then if a coffee table was to vanish, YOU would vanish with it. > The separate self or witness vanishes exactly with it. Absolute Reality is initially unaware of itself of no appearance/coffee table arises, but IT has got the potential for sentience, when some appearance shows up. Without appearance imagined/manifesting, NOTHINGNESS. Yes, your Essential Nature, or Infinite Reality itself can never vanish, but it can be unaware of itself if no appearance arises/is being imagined. Nothingness. Not nothing, but a Nothingness initially unaware of itself if nothing arises, but with Infinite Potential to manifest/imagine any possible show within itself. I agree with Hawal that Nothingness is a very good pointer, since you can not associate any image/appearance/attribute with it, since any image/appearance/attribute would be an arising within it. Neti Neti. The empty Abyss of the True Subject, fully nondual when a coffee table shows up, watching itself. . I know, sounds nuts... , but feels wonderful. And when there are no separate self arisings, the coffee table watches itself. And later, when a human thought stream is needed for practical daily business, that appears also within you. But doesn't-need to. True You is still there when the coffee table watches itself, no human identities necessary. Optionally these can be imagined, but the True You is fully fine without them. And any scary-reaction-arisings to this state of things are just protection-mechanism of the illusion/game, also arising in You. Please excuse when I started rambling with these musings again... Selling Water by the River.

Everything is energy. Manifestion is gross energy, nothingness is primordial non physical energy. In that sense i would agree everything is one. It's one energy manifestaing in different ways.

I would agree that a small part of you vanishes when a coffee table vanishes. But your essental nature never vanishes no matter how many objects in the universe were to vanish. Hence that formless nothingness would fit the definition of absolute the best and everything else is also you, but it's your secondary nature, not primary.

Although I agree with all you have written, Salvijus, there is a third formulation that at least I prefer: The coffee table observes itself. Perceptions perceiving themselves. When it feels like that, it is stable. At least for me. And if the coffee table is gone, and you are gone, you are not aware of yourself (Nirvikalpa, Deep Sleep, Cessation). But "Nothingness & Infinite Potential", with a potential for sentience. That is when all dualities collapse in the Always Here Reality that One truly is. And when being awake to That Nothingness/Absolute Reality in daily life, one is not a Witness or a human, but One has a witness or human. In the Reality that One is. Totally nondual. Then "one" gets out of the way, and lets Awakened Awareness do what the you/human did before. And at least in my case, that works more smoothly than the illusion that was in place with the separate self-show before. Water by the River We are that Reality. When you understand this, you see that you are Nothing, and being Nothing, you are Everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche

The Clap of the One Hand/Reality/True You is still there when the light-show of the visual field, and every other formless arising, is switched off. Then "It" is just Infinite Potential, Nothingness, initially unaware of itself. Perception and Awareness (which is always "of" some appearance) comes when something appears. Before that, "It" is initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience. Nothingness with a potential for awareness (of something). In one of my last posts, I described Massaros (Conversations with a Sceptic) example of Infinite Vastness/Nothingness, and suddenly a water pistol is imagined: Before that, no awareness, no nothing. Just Infinite Potential/Nothingness. Initially unaware of itself. So what is more fundamental? Switch "everything off" (Nirvikalpha, Deep Sleep, Cessation), et voila.... But then it is not nothing, but Nothingness, since IT/You has the potential for sentience, and Infinite Potential, since "It/Reality" can be aware of something if something is imagined/manifested/duality appears. Infinite Potential includes Infinite Intelligence and Infinite Love and so on.... When you contact this always here Reality/True Being/Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness-Suchness deeply, and it becomes your True Core/True Identity (which it has always been, but one preferred playing the games of mistaken identity/separate self), then the clear light show of the visual field automatically becomes less important than the Always Here Reality/Abyss. The light show can actually go dark. Nothingness. You are not aware of yourself there, that would be too much movement. The eye can't see itself. But You/Reality has the POTENTIAL for sentience. That Infinite Nothingness is that in which "everything", every appearance the Visual Field, floats in in a nondual way. IT is always here. Behind your eyes, so to speak, and literally . The Nothingness behind your head, and "around" your Visual Field. The Nothingness "below" and in every appearance. Actually every appearance IS this Nothingness, appearing as appearance. Its the Groundless Ground of everything. It is that which gives you absolute Freedom, and Eternity in the palm of your hand. Practically speaking: When the "access" to the Absolute is available in a stable way, it is this aspect that "one" tends to talk about values highest, and identifies with. Not so much the Illusion-Light-Show. But of course the Nothingness is the "substance" or groundless ground of all appearances, in a total nondual way. They are not separate. But the Nothingness/Infinite Potential is more fundamental than the Appearance Clear Light Show. Selling Water by the River

imagine infinite sounds playing right now. We cannot imagine it, but being infinite, multiplied by infinite infinitely, would be absolute silence. and the same if you listen to absolute silence or realize absolute nothingness, it automatically opens up and manifests itself as the flow of infinite "things". the quality that you say must be immutable is the infinite quality, and to capture it you have to do 5 meo in my opinion. infinity is god, it is total plenitude, total love, and at the same time total emptiness and zero. since this cannot be understood by a linear mind that dissects and defines, it is necessary to break that mind with 5meo Yes but there is not observer and objects, that's the thing, just the infinity experiencing itself, seeming that there is a subject and an object. If you observe yourself, where is the subject and the object? Are the same