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Update: Today, I reconnected with bliss. I listened to nostalgic music and went outside to contemplate reality. So much gratitude bliss and curiosity for just being alive. But this isn’t enlightenment. Enlightenment isn’t a feeling. It is a deep profound realization into the nature of reality. It isn’t some Buddhist idea you parrot. It is a genuine original insight. If you call feeling blissed and connected as enlightenment, then I have been enlightened since I was 4 years old.

DMT Quest has made two books and several fascinating videos. https://dmtquest.org/questions-for-the-lion-tamer-1/ and It is really fascinating stuff, that can explain a lot of other phenomena in an integral way. Among other things, they postulate that the Endohuasca-system is triggered by a) Meditation https://dmtquest.org/meditation-hypnosis/ Get Gamma-frequency of the brain up, and the endohuasca-system probably starts flowing.... In Ken Wilbers system, subjective states (Upper Left Quadrant) have correlates in the body (Upper Right Quadrant), and vice-versa. Causing positive feedback-loops, increasing lucidity and nonduality, bliss and so on. The transformation of the whole self/identity, in stages, making states permanent.... Principle: States are free, stages are earned. When the mindstream conforms to the requirements of these systems, stabilizing and enlightened mind-stream. Daniel Brown did a study with his "Pointing out the Great Way" students and a advanced Brainscanner. Result: Gamma-waves boosted to the max.... Maybe helps to take transforming the baseline state via meditation to "trippy"-levels more serious... b) Dark Retreat (The Tibetans do it for 100s of years, several other tribes do it, tends to induce visions. Some kind melatonin-pineal-gland.connection). c) Special Breathing (Wim Hoefer, Holotropic Breathing, Tummo, ...) d) Other stuff (Near Death experiences, cancer in certain areas of the brain (pineal gland), Kundalini, ...). trigger the body-endohuasca-system. Some meditation-states, especially advanced ones once stabilized in daily life (post-samadhi), or hardcore pillow-meditation-states, are quite "trippy" and (1) change the visual field towards "not external/nondual", "lucid,vivid,bright, groundless mere appearance, Nothingness as its essence, "hovering" in Infinite Nothingness". (2) kill the localization sensation of being in the body, making one no longer localized in the infinite field, but being the unbounded wholeness of Reality. (3) And bliss. Ken Wilbers once linked that drug addicts of Heroin get previews to the bliss of certain meditative states, and of course get addicted to that. Although I have never tried Heroin and am not so stupid to try, in my experience I can confirm (1) (2) and (3). And having these states in place, it becomes possible to intuit and realize what is aware of the whole Enchilada, being also its essence: Nothingness. Perceptions perceiving themselves. Ones True Identity. There are definitely bodily/energetic/chemical changes going on in these transformations or stabilizing these states as stages. The two books are actually a good reading for everyone belittling meditation and the permanent and deep transformations possible (@Breakingthewall, I know you don't and are open. I just write in general, as always). The states induced by psychedelics that are ripping ones heart open to Infinite Love, bathing ones sould and being in heavenly bliss, and opening the separate self contraction to the Infinite, are also available to the body by endogenous means. Or else, how would the stereotypical enlightened one with a halo depicted around the head "oozing" bliss "work"? Auto-Suggestion? The receptors in the body are there anyway, else psychedelics wouldn't work. Just add a system where an enlightened mindstream (empty, fast enough to spot separate-self-arisings, very high Gamma/Delta-waves/meditation states) triggers the body-Endohuasca-system, and one has hypothesized a possible mechanism growing and transforming baseline-consciousness to the Infinite. A system that could explain the manifestation of the potential of the human being, ranging from atom-molecule-animal-primate-human to Infinite Being/True Identity, ACTUALIZED on a permanent and stable basis. Certainly not boosting trippy states to the " stratosphere" where one can no longer "walk straight", but a lovely way to life ones life... ACTUALIZED sounds (at least to me) more like: Realized ones potential, like in "permanently". Not only for the trip, and then again with the next trip... That would be "actualized temporarily...." And of course "Exo"-Huasca of course also works.... Selling Water by the River

Sorry, that wasn't clearly written from my side. That statement, and actually my whole post referred to AlexNonyamous6 statement/post (the parts quoted below). My post didn't mainly refer to your post. I just agreed with what you have written ("very true"). I think we agree that having some basic in normal relative in place can be helpful for the further path. One shouldn't wait starting the spiritual path until then, but maybe "saving the world" can wait a little bit until ones own life is balanced&healthy. The definition of suffering I use is "psychological suffering, OR resistance to what is", not for example bodily pain (and even with that, you can have bodily pain as raw sensation, flowing through you, with no psychological resistance added to it). And with that definition, if one constantly rests in ones True Nature, suffering can indeed be overcome. Because if one rests in One True Nature (Reality itself), its rather hard to have the "autoimmune disorder" of rejecting certain aspects of your own True Self, and creating duality while doing so. Ones True Nature is the source of all bliss and peace. The experiences that the separate self strives for temporarily relieve the suffering that the separates self arising-structures cause/consist of on a regularly basis. At least my experience. But the fulfillment of these experiences doesn't create the bliss, but cause temporarily the stopping/cutting off that the separate self does to that flow of bliss. That by the way becomes pretty clear when one can literally shut off the self-contraction in ones head, when the localization and contraction (sensations normally behind the eyes) there are lost. Before I learned to do that with meditation (by the way, mainly in daily life, off the pillow. But starting on the pillow for quite a while), I became aware how sometimes before fully waking up the contraction in the head is not there yet, and then while waking up from slumbering "kicks in", but I couldn't reverse it back then. Maybe you know that experience. After a lot of meditation that became possible. It feels like you can literally switch off the separate self when it kicks in with some kind of unpleasant contractions/localizations/sensations in the head (plus of course the usual I-thought blabla and some I-feelings, and other unpleasant emotions/suffering coming with it), and get the bliss flowing doing that cutting off/Trekchö-style. and it took me many years getting there, probably can't be done short term. Ken Wilber: States are free, stages are earned (with a lot of work/practice). At least in my case, didn't go too fast... Probably big ego-case needed to be chopped away slowly The statements above are in line with all spiritual traditions on Enlightenment which I am aware of. Ken Wilber once wrote that it can be made from peak experience to plateau to permanent. Once one achieves making certain states stable as a plateau, one gets an idea how it all can work shutting off the suffering with "on-board-devices", no longer being dependend on external experiences. Then, one continues practicing to make it from plateau to permanent. When it gets that bad, I believe it is possible to either stay in the source of bliss, or at least to overcome the shock much faster, depending how solid one is rooted in ones own True Being, the source of all bliss. There are cases like that. And when one knows the mechanism described above, it becomes pretty clear how that does and would work... To make it more specific: The flow of bliss "using on-board-devices" (efficient meditation opening the Endohuasca-System, something like this https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ ) can become so strong that one can stay open in the Infinite, to use your words. And that creates a dynamic between bliss -> opening up nondual-way to the infinite -> more bliss -> more opening up to the infinite and so on that can become so strong that it can stay even through even heavy blows of fate. >there will always be suffering as long as you are human Actually, I agree to that. But at the end, you are much more the whole Reality then just a human. A Deep Identity Shift. One actually is the Whole Thing... Then one has a human moving in True Oneself, one is no longer just a human anymore. And then, suffering can become a background voice, very remote, much more easy to switch off.... I know, words in a forum... But it would be inauthentic from me to not write about that, because it is my own experience. I can only invite and motivate people to go this path. There is too much written about that it is not possible, suffering will persist and so on and so on. It doesn't need to, really doesn't. It is a bit like the Gateless Gate: One can't see it before one gets access to certain meditative and nondual/non-localized states of meditation in daily life that get the bliss/Endohuasca-system flowing. And then, oh boy, it is truly a miracle. Again and again. best regards Selling Water by the River

Very True. And there is a nice and pretty fool-proof (literally ) indicator if one really rests in ones own True Being, is enlightened on a stable basis, or if the separate self arisings are still well and alive: If you still suffer regularly, you resist the present moment manifested in your True Being/Reality. To be more precise: The separate self arisings in the True You are the resisting/suffering. So there are still some elements not transcended, your deep identity is not Reality itself then, because you (separate self arisings) want to have the True You/Reality different than it appears in this moment when you suffer. In this forum exists a large tendency to talk this simple mechanism away, because it is the blind spot (and contradiction in itself) of not so enlightened separate selves/egos thinking they are God. And admitting this to be the case, it would stop the Ego/Separate Self from thinking it is God/Absolute and its preaching from "upon high" with a hilarious ego/narcissm-show of truly god-sized dimension, which apparently feels oh so nice for some and starting lecturing. But hey, the show seen here sometimes really reminds of prime time comedy... And as written above, the mechanism luckily literally is fool-proof. No one gets left behind in Maya . Sorry, pardon my french. My recommendation would be, since you mention psychosis and depression: Get your life in order (psychological health, financial security/education/job, familiy & friends & relationships, a harmonious life on the relative level), until depression, psychosis and conflict in general is gone in your life as much as possible, and a happy & healthy as can be life on a relative level is achieved. And combining that growing up on all levels, and waking up with some kind of meditation practice would be real serious and transforming spiritual practice, ending up if possible in a stable resting in your True Being itself. Then you can show up in the world. Ken Wilbers grow up, wake up, show up. Then live the bliss of your true being on a stable basis for 5 years or so. And then, start thinking about how you can help so called "others". Maybe recheck if there are "others" at all.... Because if you try to "help/change" "others" from a position halfway up the mountain, that project is just one of the endless projects of the separate self to make the world conform to its own ideas and visions, and to ease its own suffering. What the outcome of these good intentions can be sometimes, look around in the world.... exactly. Bon voyage! Water by the River

This morning I was in the middle of a tropical rainforest on a hike. Randomly I felt a very strong urge to get away from other people and listen to the birds. for a few minutes it felt like I was on mushrooms, the noises were strange and very beautiful. Then it hit me, I realized everything is completely perfect, felt a deep bliss, perhaps the best experience of my life without psychedelics, started thanking god and telling god i love you and then i felt that god felt it back. Went on crying tears of joy saying thank you and I love you to god for creating reality out of love. then i realized i am god and we are thanking ourself. I am out of the state of consciousness now so it's really weird looking back, just like a trip. It lasted like 30-60 minutes, I just realized everything is perfect, completely okay, and there is nothing to ever worry about. God is it, God is you, God is me. God is every single you it and me. At the start I had my personal identity, then I felt god's love, then it just switched and my identity was god creating me. Having some ego backlash now, very strange it happened spontaneously, not even while meditating.

It’s important to note that any practice just as a way to escape suffering or done casually isn’t going to lead to much spiritual growth. In terms of exercise, I use the Wim Hof Breathing method. I find it most effective when integrated with processing emotions and trauma work. For me, suffering comes before the bliss. Much like that Katy Perry song, “after a hurricane comes a rainbow”. The problem is, nobody wants to face their hurricane. But the storm is inevitable, yet God is so loving that God won’t force you into anything.

Yes, @Danioover9000 obviously cited the shooting first, otherwise there would be no reason for me to present the refutation. He has denied this twice even though it was visibly verifiable. This is simply a case of untreated mental illness and I'm surprised moderation is so careless that they allow an unstable psychoneurosis victim to fester in chronic delusions via their unrestricted use of this forum. It's not healthy for him or the community. @Roy Studies show conservatives are happier and studies show left-leaning people are more intelligent. Ignorance is bliss, nothing new here. I do find it funny that you chose to defer to this vacuous speculation in lieu of addressing my response to your absurd accusation that I am disrespecting victims of Nazism. I'll repeat myself, there's a reason why we distinguish the original Nazis from modern day "neo-nazis" which is the term I used. Are you willing to sheepishly deny that ideological tenets of original Nazism have survived to this day? Is your position that anyone who merely refers to these ideological successors is a "sucked in idiot" as you put it? ?? Nobody is disrespecting original victims of Nazis by acknowledging that modern day neo-nazis exist. Such drivel.

@michaelcycle00 Good point. I remember the first time took psychedelics I immediately had profound mystical experiences. It was the most beautiful, but also most terrifying experience I ever faced. I overcame that and thought that I conquered all my fears! And then I took an even stronger psychedelic a couple years later… that’s when I realized, “holy shit, this is where the rubber meets the road”. When you go deeper, that’s when all your deepest traumas come up to the surface, and you’ll have no choice but to face them. This is why it’s foolish to proselytize psychedelics to anybody willy nilly. They have the potential for great healing, but the cost is shattering your old way of living, which of course we consider death. To make matters worse, the work it takes to integrate this healing is literally like living life on God difficulty. But, hey, it’s totally worth it compared to living in ignorant bliss (or perhaps it’s not)

I’ve experienced this on high dose of ketamine, but it was the most connected I’ve ever felt in my life. Nothing in this physical realm can compare to the the eternal bliss I experienced. After that trip, though, was a year of *survival and seeing directly how corrupted my mind is, thus that’s when the difficult and real work began. I need to make it clear that psychedelics are a powerful healing agent, but the integration period is perhaps even more important. *I was doing this prior to psychedelics, but I was unconscious of it.

And since the True Oneself is still there (by definition) in such empty "horror" states (no observer/subject/witness, or "death without end" as you call it), what one thought one was before is just an appearance/arising/illusion/FAKE. What One really is is perceptions perceiving themselves, nondual, no self with any quality left besides just pure empty awareness watching its own arisings, totally nondual, perceptions perceiving themselves. Also: Since "one" is still there in these observerless-death-horror-states, apparently what has dropped away was some sort of temporary illusion, by definition. So its some sort of Illusion-death-horror-experience, because one is apparently still there to tell about it, and to experience it. That is where the "permanent" or "always here/never not not right here" aspect of ones True Identity becomes useful to identify illusion/temporary arising, and the real (No-)Thing. Steven Norquist describes that like a nice Horror-novel: "Haunted Universe: The True Knowledge of Enlightenment ". When you had enough time in these states, the scary/horror part drops away totally, and is replaced by the bliss of these nondual and empty states. Which is then very(!) lovely. One has a human/ego, contained within Oneself, arising in Oneself, but is no longer only that. One is the Whole Thing, and ever has been. The initial "Horror-Reaction" depends on the speed of being dropped into that Nondual Empty Totality. Psychedelics deliver probably the fastest "drop". When it happens slowly and gradually, there isn't too much Horror in some cases, maybe some scary moments (that is me?!?. But what about "real" me??? . Oh, its the other way round... ), but one gets used to that. All that is lost is an Illusion. What is gained is a Deep Identity Shift, fixing the former mistaken identity/illusion of the separate self-Gestalt-arisings, into becoming the "Whole Thing/Reality itself", and even more important: Into being eternal/invincible (no moving parts anymore that can be hurt or disintegrate, nothing that can get destroyed or even change), into being the whole Reality being able to manifest/imagine anything wanted in Itself, being made of Itself... A total Freedom, because one will never suffer since no psychological suffering arisings will ever "grip" again (at least not in this life, if the brain doesn't disintegrate like Alzheimer and so on) a total Fullness because the Love/Fullfillment/bliss freely flowes from ones Core, and a total freedom from fear, because even if in future reincarnations/shows, the Illusion of separate self-arisings will arise again, it will not affect ones true core, infinite absolute Nothingness/Reality. and probably a certain momentum/Karma of being pulled to get there again in the next play/show/life/reincarnation, if one is inclined into believing something like that. But hey, maybe being a dinosaur next time is more fun, so I am flexible on the concept of reincarnation/Karma and so on.... The Real Me will always be there, can't be not there.... The following quite is like a mathematically precise short definition of the real state of things, that deep Identity Shift of Enlightenment: "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche But the dropping of that Illusion is "protected" by Maya/Lila with the strongest Horror-arisings there can be..... The Horror of being NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS. That experience is like the Wizard of Oz: Appears to be scary, but doesn't really exist. It also only just arises. Funny construction, hm? Selling Water by the River PS: I am not belittling the Horror-Death-reaction described. It is exactly that, but on the next step/steps it becomes clear it has always been like that, and only an illusion dropped that has never really been the case, only appeared so. Then it gets relaxed again... But can feel like the Boogeyman being real in the beginning. Enlightenment is realizing the separate self (the appearance/Gestalt of its merely arising thoughts/feelings/sensations and so on) doesn't exist (the "Horror-Moment" for some) NEVER EXISTED (the big relieve of realizing the mistaken identity of the past), and WILL never (really) exist the Real Oneself/Reality will never get confused or suffer, because its fully empty Infinite Consciousness/NOTHINGNESS/Reality without any specific qualities, but with the potential for awareness if a world-appearance is imagined within it) , but only can contain confusion/suffering arisings of a newly imagined separate self). then, all is good.... and great fun to look forward Francis Lucille: Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of Ignorance. Infinite Consciousness/Reality doesn't worry/suffer. and all of that is impossible to fully get before the Gateless Gate, pretty clear afterwards... PSPS: When it feels like Horror: Good, one is getting closer Further, Jed McKenna-style! And when there is never a fear-reaction when beginning to intuit deeper the rediscovered identity, then its probably not the real thing.

@Breakingthewall I applaud you for your courage to completely give in. I think the terror might have to do with the ego fearing its own death. Or you have lost your identification with the ego before that experience and I am wrong to assume that? I can relate to the terror of god. Sometimes I have this LSD flashbacks with amazing visuals which are stronger then an LSD trip even, and so I just lie on my bed and look at this visual. I was hearing a lot of voices in my head but it always came to the point where they where saying : "This is you, you are god" I was trapped in the ego then and was thinking it is the ego that is god and being very confused and disoriented. And it had a terrifying quality. My consciousness dial was cranked up to a million and a half and I felt like I was loosing it. Everything makes sense now , but then it did not. I have never taken 5 meo only LSD and DMT so I might not have felt the same infinite terror. But god is so big its terrifying. And so Loving it hurts. I literally don't know how my nerves are taking this amounts of bliss without getting fried. But the stillness is even better than the bliss. Namaste

To anyone who have done MDMA and knows what bliss feels like its like that but from a real cause. It feels too good to be true. To be honest. I remember myself on MDMA laying back on a wood log and saying to my friend: "Why is it not the natural state of our existence?" Now it is the case. It's worth it. I can write 100 more lines and it wont describe how worth it it is. For your effort you will be rewarded with the most amazing feeling in the world. It feels like I've been going around all my life carrying two 10 kilo pieces of iron in each hand. And now I've suddenly released them. Everything is easy for god. I wont go beating around the bush: God is your true nature. This heavy pieces of iron in each hand, is the ego. Release him. And you enter heaven. The door was always wide open. You just had to have the vision to go through. And I applaud you for that. Each and every one deserves it. Everyone will be awake at the end. Not a single entity left behind. Namaste

Yes, exactly. And suffering keeps the show going. Chasing for experiences to alleviate the discontent one is having, only to later find out that the sought experiences only temporally eased the discontent. Not that the separate self arisings suddenly just pause, and one contemplates what actually is. . Suffering, or discontent, is a major and necessary building block of the illusion and show of this Lila. By the way, Dukha in Buddhism, which is often falsly translated as suffering, means literally "unsatisfactoriness", exactly as you desribe. No experience that is chased brings final relief of this fundamental building block of the separate self, its fundamental unsatisfactoriness. One could even write "separate self arisings"="unsatisfactoriness". Not completely, but concerning the effect to a large part. At least my observation and experience. Only when resting in ones True Being is this discontent/suffering removed, with bliss from ones core that is stronger and replaces the discontent. "Bliss replaces misery", as a Tibetan quote in "Pointing out the Great Way, Brown" says,. When one can sit down, rest in ones True Core, get the bliss flowing, and have no problem sitting there a few hours, then one actually has achieved a major part of the path. And it is not that one has to force onself to do that. I wouldn't write it if I would not know from my own experience that this is possible. Selling Water by the River

Long story short: I had similiar experiences like you describe concering meditation ("Basically it has done exactly what "sitting in silence" sounds like it would do: Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does."). Then I read a lot about many different meditation system and traditions, hundreds of books. At some point, I found what changed everything for me: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. A "synthetic summary" of the Mahamudra-system, from Daniel P. Brown, Associate Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School, who read the texts in their original language. He also wrote his dissertation about the deep structure similiarities (and differences) of the main meditation systems of Tibetan Buddhism (Mahamudra), Theravada, and Yoga (Yoga Sutras of Patanjali). Then I did that for over a decade, read the book and its main passages probably somehting like 10 times plus (and many other Mahamudra/Dozgchen books), understood the more sophisticated parts (Stage 3, Yoga of One Taste, or of the simultaneous/nondual mind and Stage 4, Nonmeditation-Yoga, getting rid of the last remnants of the separate self) after getting substantial practice (certain part on the pillow, large part off the pillow in daily life whenever I didn't to fully concentrate for example on attention-capturing analytic tasks. So most of the day it was possible doing that). That got the meditation/mindfulness going during most of the day. All of that together created enough momentum to get something which feels like the Endohuasca-system going, when things got nondual, empty, groundless, appearances nondual and not so solid&"out there" but more lucid/mere appearance, and a lot of bliss. My theory is that when enough momentum is there (and the separate self arisings got seen through/transcended sufficienlty), something like this starts: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ . At least feels like this. Triggered by meditation. But I would not have needed that decade, maybe a few years if done with good coaching. I agree with you that you need massive momentum. What happens when "Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does." is orders of magnitude lower than having "ego destroyed by something serious, like a release dose of toad". Problem with only tripping instead of also meditating is that: Its not permanent, and significant structures of the separte self remain not transcended (although very subtle ones, you don't see and transcend these during the trip, however much one thinks that one has done so). which can (but doesn't have to) result in a pretty interesting and funny Narcissm-Show of a separate-self/Ego still well and alived, confusing separate self/ego remains with the Totality/God. Shortform something like: "Psychiatrist: I don't know your problem yet, so so its best when you start right from the beginning. Patient: In the beginning, I created the heavens and the earth." It can also end in the more humble version of not getting rid of the usual suffering cycles of the separate-self/ego chasing for experiences that promise to mitigate the discontent, but never permanently and fully deliver. If the ego elements/separate self elements kicks in later when sobre, they have not been transcended. That is what good and efficient meditation, done over a long time, can do: Get the separate self arisings out of the way that block ones reckognition of ones True nature. That consists mainly of two parts: the former subject (separate self), that is finally realized as Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness in which everything arises, including the former object "external world", which appeared as solid&out there (so not nondual), which finally becomes nondual and mere appearance/illusion/imagined. Short form: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche When you have that in daily life, the bliss that belongs to the package of the True Self gets delivered on top. Because without bliss, the normal cycle of suffering and chasing experiences to ease that discontent/suffering continues. That is pretty much the core of the separate self, the happy merry-go-round of chasing some experiences that never finally fulfills. And to conclude: Yes, I know IT is all nondual, infinite, imagined illusion, and so on and so on. But to get there, at least I prefer it to describe it in this way, using relative language (which by definition is based on duality). Why? Because its the only way to communicate, and something like that written above would have helped me tremendously 5 or 10 years ago. But everbody is different. If it doesn't help the one reading this, please be so kind to consider it as a buffet where you can take what you want and ignore the rest, and please do the Black Eyed Peas "Where is the love" video instead of the Bear move of the videos in the signature, or "The last duel of buster scruggs". Namaste! And of course (if you are so inclined) use psychedelics, for getting previews, getting a feel what its all about, and to blast some walls that show up on the way. I have written extensively about these topics in my previous posts. If you are so inclined, please check them for more details. All of that is just based on my experience and observations, and reading about past and historic cases. Maybe you find it helpful, or at least as an additional perspective. All the best on your journey. Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Because what continues after the moment of death is again relative appearance, a "newly" imagined visual field, arisings in the opening of Absolute Reality that you are. The karmic tendencies of your current mind-stream, which aggregate and constitute your Soul that passes from life to life, have not been enlightened before you committ suicide. You have not stabilized your True Nondual Nature yet. Else, you normally wouldn't commit suicide, because it is your creation, and you would life the bliss/love flowing from your own True Core. All of that (Soul, this world, the Bardo afterwards, any other manifestation) is relative manifestation happening in the Absolute Reality/Nothingness that You really are. So it doesn't really exist, but appears to do so. And how much that can hurt (appearing to do so), one knows probably quite well enough from ones current life to take it serious, even if its essence is only Nothingness/Absolute Reality. But if your tendencies/Karma/Souls have not developed in this life to see through the illusion, that will come back again in the next life. Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour. – Padmasambhava And if you kill yourself while your soul still gravitates in the illusion of separation/suffering right now, why should it be different in the existence that reappears after death? The True You will still be there, but the relative mindstream of the reconstituting separate-self will not get any wiser doing stupid things (suicide). So you if you are not going to finish second class because you drop out of school, you are not going to be put into third grade. And how much fun second grade was in that case if you drop out of school you know quite well... And of course dying and approaching the Absolute/Clear Light of Death feels wonderful, like Infinite Love. You can have that experience also while alive with Nirvikalpa. Or drop some Psychedelics/5-MeO. See also all the Near Death Experiences. But when you come out of these states again, the whole enchilada of states manifests again backwards. A similiar process happens in the Dying process after having experiences to so called "Clear Light of Absolute Reality". Nothingness but with a certain afterglow/"knowledge/acess" still available after the experience and while having it, although there is no more duality. As for example the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol , The Tibetan Book of the Dead After having falling out from the Absolute/Clear Light of Absolute Reality/Nothingness, the not so funny stages of the reincarnation-process start, and since you are not familiar with these states/bardos, "relative you" gets frightened/not so infinite loving again... and then after suicide going back to second grade again, to finish the class, so to say. Don't worry, nobody gets lost. All make to the finish line at some point. Since you can't loose your true nature. And I would recommend not walking out of school (suicide), not making second grade, and repeating that 20 times. But of course, its a free country, and the point of the ride is the ride. If you want to repeat it 20 times, nothing will stop you. But why knowingly "shoot yourself in the foot", resisting your own manifestation/show, think yourself of clever and shoot yourself, and thinking that ends school and you go directly to Infinite Love permanently? And I honestly think Leo should add to "Death is Infinite Love"-statements something like: Only in the first stages of the dying process if you have not stabilized this love on a permanent basis before death/suicide, including experiencing Absolute Reality/True You on a constant basis. What follows afterwards experiencing the Absolute/Clear Light of Death in the dying process can be a lot less than Infinite Love. Like in, for example right here and now, depending on the mindstream. Any fool can read anything to the statement of "Death is Infinite Love", and aim unknowingly directly for repating 2nd class 20 times+, thinking he has graduated PhD in "Infinite Love ever after". Karma/Cause-Effect also holds for Leo & your forum & teaching, and having a track-record of (unnecessary) suicides on this board, is... -fill in the blanks of your liking-. In my opinion less than smart-as-can-be. Anyways, as always, bon voyage to all of you! Respectfully Yours Selling Water by the River

Nice post. Let me add some musings from my perspective. >But there is a catch. You see through all the egos games. If you speak from an Enlightened perspective you will not be understood. Every ego is afraid of absolute truth. Yes. The separation/separate self/Ego HAS to be scared by/avoid the truth, by definition. Else it would end soon.... Not so good for a nice, long, interesting game/show/Lila.... But at the same time, every separate being is deeply drawn back and attracted by its True Nature, which fragrence/bliss it never fully forgot, and only partly manages to avoid, closing down to this bliss and the following various projects to get it back via a variety of experiences . And these two contradicting drives (Pull of Illusion and Pull of Truth) drive the separate self sometimes quite nuts... >The final stage is to do activities just for the pure joy. You start to walk the path of appreciation. Yes. One couldn't do different. And it couldn't work different than that. Nothing left to force oneself to do something one doesn't want. No more internal conflicts, conflicting motivations. Luckily, if you have made it this far, your motivations are normally aligned with the Universe, because you have understood and trained compassion for a long time to stabilize resting in your True Nature/Awakening, see below. >You can also start getting attached to trying to alleviate suffering but that will take years of practice because egos will blame you for their feelings and accuse you of being the source of their suffering. They will demonize you and call you a victim blamer, arrogant, a narcissist, and a gaslighter. You will need to cultivate a deep compassionate patience should you choose to engage in helping others who suffer. Wise words. That is why in all Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist training systems compassion has a nearly (or fully) equal status to the training of wisdom, transcendence and Awakening. It is considered as an equal companion, laying the foundation, of wisdom/transcendence/Awakening/Enlightenment. Strange, is it, if the same systems consider all the be an Illusion, a magic show? So why do they do that? In relative reality (our life), one can not maintain stabilized Awakening (let alone Enlightenment), when you are constantly annoyed by the Truth-avoidance-mechanisms of ones fellow separate-selves, and react with negative emotions towards that. These negative emotions/reactions do shut down ones nondual experience of the visual field being groundless mere appearances hoving in Infinite Nothingness. And more easily to understand: They shut down ones love, which is the same as the acceptence of the here and now, which is the only thing happening/being imagined right now, and actually the True You in a nondual way. So these emotions are just incompatible with keeping the nondual realization ongoing, an auto-immune-reaction on parts of your own True Being, cutting nonduality in two creating duality. And that doesn't... feel good . At least my experience. And that of many others. By the way, if something happening requires immideate "not-accepting"-action, like running away from an attacking bear, that is of course also done. Staying open and fearless, and not constricting the love/acceptence of this present moment doesn't exclude acting wisely. It is not so wise and smart to serve as food for the attacking bear. There are better things to do with your separate-self-vehicle than that.... Only Empty Mirrors are stupid enough to get their frames teared down by confused attacking bears, see my Signature of the post below, but that is another story as explained in the Job Profile for Empty Mirrors. My theory (experience) is that these "less-than-loving", non-so-compassionate, non accepting/closing down emotions cut off the Endohuasca-system: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ , solidifying the mere-appearance infinite nondual field of lucid world-arisings hovering in infinite Nothingness, made out of Nothingness as its essence, and making it solid&external or appearing "out there", duality: the "normal" state of the separate self, often less than loving, imprisoned in duality most or all of the time. So it is impossible to live in a stabilized Awakening (let alone Enlightenment) without deep compassion for other not yet realized beings. You can not blame an acorn for not being an oak tree yet. That would be rather stupid. All acorns got and are Buddha-Nature (or can realize their potential by becoming an oak tree). It is for example not the way society raises children, which is a similiar topic. We don't blame children for not being adults yet, but acknowledge their potential of being adults themselves, and raise them up to that potential. Every time I write Selling Water by the River, it is to acknowledge by the way that what is being doing is Illusion. But a nice one! What else is there to do? And since there is only appearance/illusion, there is no difference between reality and appearing illusion in some way. And Karma/cause effect fully works/holds, works like a clockwork, driven by infinite intelligence. Even if its only imagined... that "I" am "selling" something that is freely available to all (the Water of the River). Actually, there is only the Water of the River. That the water of the River is the Buddha Nature of every being, the Nothingness that is the essence of all of Reality. So nothing that could be superior to anything else at the end of the day... Actually, there are no others to safe. And yet, that is what tends to appear to happen normally. And should happen on a relative level, as it is in the nature of things... And that is paradoxical from before the Gateless Gate, but not afterwards... It is only the True You manifesting in endless perspectives.... sometimes appearing (only appearing) confused in some mindstreams, and in some not. The "Core" never gets confused, since it is Nothing(-ness). It contains the confused or unconfused mind-stream arisings. And Maya is the great seductress (hey, "somebody" has to orchestrate the illusion-show. Else it wouldn't be there! ) but there are even more elements build into our reality to guide souls back to their true nature. One of the mightiest and most powerful ones are probably: What is more attractive? An Ego/separate self preaching arrogantly with self-importance and narcissism from upon high, or a being radiating love, compassion and wisdom/bliss? and guess what feels better for the being doing that why does every being yearn for bliss/peace, intuiting that that is what one really is? In a practical experience, compassion/love increases ones realtive happiness in every way. A happy, integrated "relative" life, delivering on the stages of Maslow what the separate self need to thrive and not scream for attention most of the time, resulting in a separate self that is much more easy to transcend than a drama-show-separate-self, that constantly requires attention and maintenance, and suffers lack on the lower levels of Maslows pyramid (financials&job, friends/partner, health, security needs, belonging-needs, self-esteem, self-actualization...) And also speedens up self-realization significantly, or even enabling it, and stabilizes it. That even shows in the fact that countless studies asking humans about their deepest/strongest sources of relative happiness in life is human connection (which is based in large parts on love/compassion, or resonating deeply with "another" soul, seeing and being seen, which then yields natural compassion out of that resonance. At least if its done in a healthy way). Selling Water by the River PS: Ken Wilber: Wake up, Grow Up, Show Up

I agree that large parts of Buddhism/"Hinduism" and any other Spiritual Tradition had major impacts from psychedelics, and genetically/"karma-developed" realizers. Yet, most of them did some kind of meditation, often for very long times. And I don't believe (personal opinion, based on what I have seen) that only tripping will get you really to a deep identity with your True Identity, Absolute Reality itself. Especially its essence, which Hawal for example calls Nothingness (because the essence of the Always Here Reality is totally empty, Nothing(ness) at all. Only this way (totally empty), It/True You can be totally infinite and manifest anything. For sure, ignoring or not using, or advising against psychedelics, or the "hurricane" to blow away 95%+ of the separate self arisings/clouds covering the sun(True Nature, see some of my last posts) is in my opinion not the most efficient and integral method. Why not use these tools as a preview to the fulltime thing of stabilized Awakening, enabling to perceive the visual field as lucid hologram-like mere appearances hovering in infinite timeless Nothingness and disabling/transcending the separate self arisings from a level of separate self bodymind mindstrem to being a mostly empty witness but still some kinds of very very subtle layers of Individuality/separateness still going on, like an empy-nothing-consciousness watching (or even being) some kind of mere appearance-infinity. But still with some very very subtle levels of the separate self arisings still active. and these very fine last layers/filters/clouds of the remaining separate self arisings/individuality/being not the Totality at the deepest Identity Level fully, prevent the full realization, which would make IT stable after coming out of the trip. To become fully Everything/Totality on a stable basis, one has to be totally Nothing(-ness). At least for me, this seems totally logical in theory, and is also demonstrated in practice time and time again of what kills the solidity of the visual field (and makes the visual field mere empty groundless appearance hovering in Nothingness) and its "externalness/not nonduality", making "It" one seamless infinite nondual Totality/whole: Being the Nothingness fully,and stabilizing in that. Short form: "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche So, why did the actively psychedelic using traditions either disappear (Vajrayana in medieval India), or go underground in secrecy? My theory is: When you got a monastery with meditation technique (that is maybe not the most efficient one), bringing less than a few percent of the people to Enlightenment, and supplying that with the goooood psychedelic stuff ... (which was not so gooood in the past, nearly nobody had 5-MeO for example, mainly Mushrooms and LSD/Ergot/... and some DMT. Well, you can imagine the show of the ladies and gentlemen inside which are by definition confusing in the beginning phases of their Psychonaut/tripping-journey parts of their separte self arisings/Ego with the Infinite Field of Totality hovering as mere appearance in groundless eternal Nothingness when they take the psychedelics. that probably has led to an Ego-show of the highest degree of only partly transcended Egos/separate selfs.... Imagine who would not like to join the club/monastery if rumours of tripping occur? the support from the community to such an institution would have been shut down after quite fast after a few scandals of "not-so-enlightened-living" But most importantly (and at least my experience): To stabilize Awakening in daily life, which brings the bliss and freedom from psychological suffering) that everybody (wants independend of outer circumstances), one needs a deep identity shift towards ones True Nature, which is Nothingness as "Subject"/or better Deep-Identity with the nondual Totality and Nothingness (Halaw) as its essence, which means no remaining separate self arising not spotted and "not believed"/"not hypnotized by"/not transcended/not cut-off fast enough. and that takes time, hundreds if not thousands of hours resting in empty Suchness (which can then already be done in daily life, but the beginning phase without some (or a lot) sitting/meditation is probably difficult. and one doesn't get enough time in the psychedelic state to do that, and even more important if you meditate, you get direct feedback on if you transcend your character/separate self arisings/Ego or not: If you don't, then the visual field doesn't get shimmering mere apperance, but stays rock-solid and "out-there/external/dual. If you just drop psychedelic, it is probably impossible to not project certain remaining aspects of the separate self on the Totality, leaving it not totally empty of separate self/subject, but a mix of the Truth and remaining separate-self-illusion-arisings. and Everything Else (the infinite Totality of the visual field/"external" world hovering as mere groundless imagined appearance in the always here Nothingness. again, the very nice summary of Kalu Rinpoche: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. All of that means that I believe that one has to and should do both, psychdelics AND meditation, preferably an efficient meditation-system (broken record of mine: I recommend for example Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown, and in general Mahamudra/Dzochen), I have written in my past posts about this topic): get Awakenings and previews of the real state of things via psychedelics, and hopefully don't get the separate self/ego blown up by that to epic proportions by projecting the properties of the epic/awe-inspring Absolute Reality on the separate self individuality arisings (that is Maya giving you a hugely seductive kiss) and get deeply established in ones True Identity (Nothingness), so that one never forgets ones True Nature in daily life never loosing the Deep Identity of being the Totality, the visual field staying nondual and as lucid empty mere appearances. I have written about the Endohuasca-System, which is (I believe, and also my experience) triggered by stabilizing these empty states of transcending the separate self: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ never loosing the bliss of ones own True Identity One of the largest experiments (both in scope of people doing it, and psychonauts having gone as fare as ever before, and further) is being conducted right here in this community/forum, and in general with the ongoing psychedelic revival. We are sitting in the prime seats to see if those belittling meditation (and emphasizing only psychedelics or also only meditation, one or the other) or those that recommend both methods to be integrated and used together) end up living a beautiful, satisfying and blissful life, stabilizing their True Deep Identity in daily life, and explore more of the depths of the Kosmos. My personal belief is that the Totality gives one a lot of insight into the structure of the manifested/relative side of Absolute Reality by doing mainly (or only) psychedelics, but so far, as I see it, Absolute Reality doesn't give the full bliss and stable Awakening in daily life to those only or mostly or only doing psychedelics. Opposite examples welcome, I have not seen one so far that fully stabilized ones True Nature as Deep Identity (and the ensuing Liberation), neither historical nor contemporary. Even if it exists/existed/or will happen, think about what that says about the success rates of the paths psychedelic only and meditation. I also assume, since Absolute Reality is all there is, infinitely intelligent, all powerful, certain areas of exploration of the Multiverse are blocked for part-time-separate-selves only doing tripping, but falling from grace/loosing Awakening after the trip. As this worlds contains many many traps that stabilized the illusion of Maya/Duality/Separate Self, from what I see this minefield doesn't end when doing psychedelics, but actually starts there at the highest level: Blowing up ones Ego to epic proportions via projecting the separate self arisings/identity onto the properties of the Infinity Absolute Reality is a hugely seductive trap, but blocks the stabilizing of ones True Identiy (fully empty Nothingness -in Halaws definition- Core Identity), and being nondually Everything in daily life. So, ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seatbelts, and watch one of the most interesting shows of the Multiverse developing right here in this forum, and in the psychedelic revival at large... Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River >PS: Can you imagine driving a car then your mind just randomly goes into a Salvia trip? Sometimes I have the feeling that exactly something like that happens with fellow drivers .Luckily, not too often... ( :

Wait there are actual studies that show this? I was just going off my intuition and experience lol. How legitimate are these studies, at all worthwhile? I'm gonna guess it's an "ignorance is bliss" thing.

Don't do mind games. At the end of the day you prefer Pleasure over pain. Bliss over misery. Happiness over depression. If mastering pleasurable state of consciousness its already a mastodonic task, transcending duality of pleasure-pain is a whole other level.

Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana, Crowley. I found it fascinating. and: https://psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz "The most famous and oft-cited passage by both ancient and modern commentators on the Supreme Array occurs when Sudhana meets the Bodhisattva Maitreya. Maitreya stands before a jeweled palace. When Sudhana asks about how he should carry out the course of a bodhisattva, Maitreya tells him he should enter the palace. Sudhana then asks for permission to enter; the Bodhisattva snaps his fingers and the doors to the palace open. Once inside, Sudhana sees that the palace’s interior is adorned with precious substances, many hundreds of thousands of leagues wide and as vast as the realm of space. Moreover, inside the palace are hundreds of thousands of other palaces arrayed in the same manner spread out in all directions. Miraculously, each dwelling remains distinct while simultaneously reflecting every other one and all of its objects. Experiencing this awesome vision, Sudhana is overcome with bliss and bows down in all directions. At the moment of prostration, through the power of Maitreya, Sudhana perceives himself simultaneously in each and every palace witnessing a different scene from Maitreya’s bodhisattva course of conduct. In a single instant, Sudhana sees countless eons, realms, beings, bodhisattvas and buddhas, and hears endless teachings. In the centre of all his, Sudhana sees one palace larger than the others. Inside it, he witnesses Maitreya in his final life performing the acts of a buddha, such as going forth to homeless life, sitting under the enlightenment tree, attaining omniscience and preaching the Dharma. While Sudhana is watching the endless and simultaneous practices of Maitreya in all the palaces, suddenly the Bodhisattva enters the dwelling, snaps his fingers once more and says, Arise, Son of Good Family! This is the nature of conditioned factors. Son of Good Family, characterized by their non-fixity, all conditioned factors are controlled through the knowledge of bodhisattvas. In this way, lacking the perfection of an essence, they are like illusions, dreams and reflections." and " In an important sense, Buddhism has always been “psychedelic.” Recall the meaning of psychedelic as “manifesting the mind.” The very first verse of the Dhammapada, one of the most ancient Buddhist texts, reads: The mind is the basis for everything. Everything is created by my mind, and is ruled by my mind. When I speak or act with impure thoughts, suffering follows me As the wheel of the cart follows the hoof of the ox. " Water by the River

You are right, it's definetely wouldn't be practical to be in this state 24/7. But I do want to develop a skill to get me into that state wherever I want. It's true, that if you get in this state 24/7, one would become a vegetable, just collapsed by the intensity. But you know, I think there are levels to this. There are levels of blissfulness where you can remain functional, and you don't get so incapacitated. This is possible. I usually get them and stay at them for some more time as the effects of the kriya I do gradually come down. This is the lower level of the intense bliss I´m talking about but still espectacular. See, there are states of consciousness where there is pleasure but there is NO emotion, humans think good emotions are the highest states but there are things further beyond preferable from that, and still you can remain functional. You know an animal a few seconds before catching its prey? Its life energies are absolutely intense, an at the same time its absolutely still. This is a possibility to the human being too. But it requires a certain mastery of your life energies.

All is mind. There is only mind. That energetic vibration is a universal mind state. Again, the bliss is impermanent it will come and go. Do not get too attached or you will become what they call a spiritual junkie. True balance comes from calmness and tranquility. Bliss is passionate. Well guess what? Anger is passionate. Passion rises and falls like a strong wave on the once tranquil ocean. If you were in a blissful state 24/7 it would tire your human body out.

The mind talking and Bliss is not possible ?

True Understanding Is Bliss.

Totally agree ?? Dude, its just not bliss. It's the Love and intense dissolution of time that happens in Non-Dual state of consciousness. It's not just a mind state. It's an energetic vibration that its very close to TRUTH, if its not Truth already. .. Shambhavi mahamudra