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It is a confusing topic and I think it is because of the terms. As you said it might make sense for a crusty old man, but everything is "now", both your own birth and death occur in the "now", you as a toddler and you as that crusty old man happens "now". That can be shown via words (since we never experience anything unless it is happening presently, the past only exists to us by memories which are also accessed in the "now"). Regarding the matter in general, I do not see that it would be different to enter death consciously or unconsciously. If a person gets shot in the head, why would death be different than death for a person who enters it in this Mahasamdhi type manner? I suspect that when death occurs every single person is immediately "enlightened" to a level infinitely beyond any living person ever was or ever could be. There will be no "experience of death" only of "dying". Once death occurs everyone and everything is equal is what I think. My main overarching idea of course being nonduality. The fundamental nature of everyone and everything is the same thing, it is all one... When "there", a monk with a lifetime of spiritual practice vs a murderer will be identical because, literally, they were never real and were always just this to begin with... Leo, me, whoever else posts, being as real as a thought or emotion... Hence regardless of how a person gets there I suspect the end result is completely identical.

Dealing with My Spiritual Ego: The Dangers of the Spiritual Ego and Why People Should Be Careful Some. of. yall. bout. to. be. real. mad. at. me. but. it. must. be. said. While I do get a lot of value out of spirituality and Actualized.org, there are things that I'm very hesitant and even skeptical about. This might look like me turning on this community or not aligning with the main values of this place but I honestly don't care. The two main things that I'm really hesitant about involve the dating advice here, especially for guys who can't get laid, and the enlightenment related things there. I'm not going to talk about the first one because I already wrote about that but I am going to focus on the second one. I suppose that I'm far from having any concerns about enlightenment and transcendence. I think I'm at a place where integration and building a solid foundation to build my life on in order to ground me is much more important. I think getting on the path to enlightenment prematurely can be incredibly dangerous without proper integration. Maybe I'll get to a point where I'll care more about existential and absolute truths years down the road or maybe I won't I don't know. But I know that if I ever get on that path, I want to be able to have some type of framework and some solid foundation because diving in head first without preparation is irresponsible for me and the people around me. There are some methods of getting there that I don't particularly agree with (if you do agree with it idc, no judgement I don't know what's best for everyone) and those include things like psychedelics, fasting, and isolating yourself from your loved ones and abandoning your hobbies and interests because all of your attention should be towards enlightenment. I feel that those things are rather extreme and are things that are definitely not for the vast majority of people. Also, I'm hesitant with drugs in general. I don't care if other people uses them granted they are doing so safely, responsibly, and legally but it's not for me especially when that advice is coming from a talking head on the internet. Upon recent events, this video by Adeptus Psychonautica came out. Some people are triggered because they think it makes actualized.org look bad but I think it's incredibly beneficial for people from the outside critiquing actualized.org because being super insular usually doesn't end well for a variety of reasons whether it be because of self bias all the way to cult like tendencies. I guess I'm not particularly attached to actualized.org and spirituality in general so when people critique these things, I don't feel particularly triggered because to me it's simply a source. I think it can be easy for people to get attached to some sources and some teachers because of the benefits that one gets from their content because it does have to do with those people's survival emotionally and psychologically. Especially if you get help in a vulnerable place and even if you get out of that vulnerable place, there is an attachment that forms, almost like a baby blanket after you grow up imo. I've had something like this come up for me once personally and even though I've never got to the point of needing to defend that source I got value from, it does sting because part of you identifies with the source and teachings therefore when someone critiques that source or teaching, it's like they're critiquing you. I went ahead and watched Adeptus's livestream and I feel like most of it was valid despite what other people may think on here. At no point did I feel that there was slander or that Actualized.org was being dragged through the mud. There are also points where Adeptus talks about the positives of the way Leo is handling different issues such as the phone call he had with Connor Murphey and one of the posts he made on the thread discussing recent events( Around 1:08:00-1:17:00). They talked about how Leo or any of the mods are trying to do anything malicious or create a cult but sometimes it seems like there is one forming around Leo anyway (basically collective ego). Overall, @AdeptusPsychonautica, I loved this video and I think It's important to contemplate on the darker aspects of spirituality and self improvement rather than idealizing it. Here are somethings that I found were really valuable that I want to include in my journal.: Around the 15 minute mark: Mackenzie talks about how these teachings aren't things that were made up by the community rather they are things that were taught by ancient teachers and how back then there were teachers who had communities but since it was in person, the teacher can gage were the students are at and how much they can handle. However, this aspect gets lost when its all on YouTube and on a forum when anyone regardless of how stable they are can access it. There aren't checks and balances. I think this is a very valid critique. It's not so much a direct attack on actualized.org but it's talking about how systemically there are problems and shortcomings. At the 20-24 minute mark, I can see why some people in this community can get triggered. They are critiquing how a lot of the followers think that they are a finished product and they are so enlightened and they egg each other on in order to keep up with the master and meanwhile the master is here talking about "i've gone deeper, I've become more awakened, I encountered a new level of awakening, you can't understand where I've been." And this challenges people to do more and more and more to where it can become compulsive especially because Leo talks in these absolute terms. Adeptus talks about how this might be Leo's personal truth and how he isn't saying Leo is lying or anything like that but it's the way he goes about it. This is honestly part of the reason why I avoid parts of this forum. I personally found that this type of thing doesn't help me and how this type of thing can become very compulsive, especially when it comes to Leo's fanboys. Around the 31 minute mark: If truth realization is not your Moby Dick to where you want to sacrifice everything, go for human adulthood meaning the integration of your spiritual, emotional, relational, physical self to be your most mature self. If you don't want to sacrifice everything, point your hunger toward integration and self actualization. Then in the 37 minute mark, Mackenzie talks about her experiences with nonduality how she felt all the love and light in the moment but then she came back down to just being human again and still having all of her problems that she had before the experience and how that can be discouraging and therefore cause people to go on these endless seeking journeys. I feel like this is where I'm at with my views on spirituality and self realization. I do care more about integration and building a fulfilling life than simply transcending everything and joining the void. Because based on some of the interactions I've had on this forum, teachers that I have learned about in history, and interacting with Leo himself is that even if they get an enlightenment experience, there is still plenty of human shit and blind spots you'll still have. And I think to go towards actualization is to deal with that in a slow consistent way rather than dealing with nonduality and transcendence. Around the 40 minute mark: Mackenzie talks about cleaning up her nihilism she encountered from spirituality and how she started building meaning in the form of close relationships, books, etc. to slowly start rebuilding her ego to care about existing. And then she realized that that was the process that she wanted all along and because she grew up in the shadow of new age culture where ego death, nonduality, mysticism, love and light are more a part of the conversation than anything, she thought that was the way to fix herself. But for her it was more along the lines of deep psychological work, embodiment, and healing that she realized she wanted more of a complete human experience instead of transcending the human experience because that was the thing sold to her as a way to deal with being here. In order to deal with being here, you don't have to leave. You just have to be present and accept the present moment instead of constantly feeling like you have to do more and more to reach a higher and higher state of consciousness in order to be at peace with the present moment. In spiritual communities its like there is always some place else to get to. It goes back to the 27 minute mark where Mackenzie talks about how there are two levels. There is truth realization and done. Once you reach done, that's it there is no more self discovery of lets go see what else I can find. Once you're enlightened, the seeker disappears so if you're seeking more experiences, you're still seeking which can get compulsive. I love this section. While I never became nihilistic, I've had a point where I got really attached to detaching. I journaled about this before and how it relates to my relationship to actualized.org. Basically it wasn't cute. I had a friend who was like "I don't think you even know who you are anymore" because I got caught in this cycle of even detaching from the healthier forms of my ego like my personality, my hobbies and interests etc. It wasn't this enlightenment thing that people often talk about here. And from then on I took a step back from spirituality and self help in order to be more gentle with myself so I can build myself back up again. This was the post I was talking about and here is the part that I think is most applicable to this post: Around the 47 minute mark: I also like how they discuss how people turn spiral dynamics is another dick measuring contest lol. Also Adeptus talks about how it's not about the model itself rather it's about how people use it to judge others and turn it into a dogma. Then Mackenzie talks about how it's important ot just see it as a model rather than THE TRUTH that explains and solves everything because that can be the indication that this is probably a defensive ego mechanism. Reminds me of something I wrote elsewhere in this journal: Around the 1 hour 3 minute mark: Mackenzie talks about how some teachings are vague or are gatekept because the highest teachings can be dangerous. Vague teachings will only make sense when people ponder it for a while and then when the reach a certain place in their journey it will make sense. And that bread crumbing your way to truth is part of a gradual process of direct experience where you figure it out on your own, therefore if something goes wrong, you can still back track. However with psychedelics, you're kind of thrown into the truth and then you may or may not be able or ready to deal with it which can be dangerous if someone doesn't have proper integration. Granted I've never experimented with psychedelics and I don't plan to any time soon, but I do 100% agree with the need for proper integration and the importance of pacing yourself in the journey to find truth. It reminds me of Leo's video on ego backlash where if there is a sudden change, even if it's for the better it can lead to a huge backlash because individually and collectively we want to aim towards homeostasis rather than growth because homeostasis feels safe while growth is a leap into the unknown. And these backlashes, even though they may look like a step back after taking a step forward, are important so that you don't do too much too soon and throw everything off and cause chaos while aiming for growth. The bigger the growth, the bigger the backlash. To me that's important to take into consideration because to me that means taking on too much too soon can yield to a huge backlash which can be pretty detrimental. And to me, it means that it's important to take your time on the journey and pace yourself so that you don't have a backlash that is so devastating that it takes away all of your progress. It simply isn't sustainable. That's something I also learned this year as I've been trying to take a more gentle, slow approach to discipline rather than a rigorous strict way to discipline. It goes back to that feeling of always wanting to get somewhere rather than appreciating where you are now. The spiritual ego wants to be enlightened as soon as possible and if it means taking a shit ton of LSD or 5meo, it will take that route over a slower and more sustainable way like through meditation, self-inquiry, and working on yourself in general. I don't think there is anything wrong with those substances and that there is a time and place for them but when you have a spiritual ego that wants to get more and more enlightenment experiences that last longer and longer and go deeper and deeper, I can see how that can turn very dysfunctional to where someone might contemplate on ending their life so that they are in that state of bliss forever. 1:21:00: "What are things about yourself that you are trying to avoid by transcending that? That's where to start. What are you trying to transcend, why are you so fucking eager to transcend it." I just really like this part. I think a lot of people need to contemplate this tbh and I think this is a good quote to end this post at.

@Florian totally agree with this post, I got deep into this path the exact same time Leo did so I was almost following along with his own development and having say 6 years of nonduality and meditation training helps alot before taking psychedelics. If someome new finds his most recent work its prob to much for them to take. You need alot of grounding before you can integrate this and not loose your mind.

I am one of the people Leo is talking about. I have experienced and uncovered so much stuff on my own that you cannot even imagine I've done psychedelics trips, lucid dreams, I habe hundreds of pages written in my journal about metaphysic, existential questions, nonduality, relationships, mindsets and so on, I read books and so on. I simply do not have time to share All this info or to help people around on this forum. Either I do my work or I keep posting here. No time for both.

Maybe there could be another section of the forum just for the most dedicated to the path? One for amateurs who are just starting out in their journey. A place where they can ask the basics, discuss things at that level, and get advice from more experienced peoples. And another for those who more advanced on the path, who can discuss the deepest depths of Nonduality/God-Consciousness/Love/Infinity with others at that same level. Think of it like school. Would you have people in grades 6 -12 in the same class, discussing the same subjects, with the peoples in Masters and Doctorate programs? Of course not. It neither benefits those at the 6-12 stage, nor the people at the Masters stage of education. The only way a University Masters class works, for the Professor to be able to teach topics at that level, is if everyone in that class has the same level of education and understanding. And those at the 6-12 stage of education can get confused and frustrated by the Masters class subject matter, potentially hindering their development at the stage that they are at. What if there was a Actualized.org Masters class forum, where people had to earn admittance, through their applied dedication to their spiritual path. And if they display tendencies that don't meet the standard set for that forum, instead of banning them, they simply get put back into the general audience forum. And, as they grow, if they so desire, they can apply again. Isn't Actualized.org an education of a subject matter, in this case Nonduality/God-Consciousness/Love/Infinity? Why shouldn't it operate like an education system, with tiers, instead of all lumped together? Any education system where all levels of education/understanding/knowledge are all lumped together, would run into major issues.

I greatly appreciate having a forum where one can ask deeply existential questions concerning their spiritual journey. I can't think of anywhere else that one can ask questions of Nonduality and God Realization, and not only not get judged for these questions, but get thoughtful guidance from others that have gone through or are going through the same things. It's immensely valuable as one navigates the complexities, traps, struggles, suffering, traumas, joys, madness, and breakthroughs of the spiritual journey. There has been lots of debate on this forum of what it is and what it should be. With a great deal of people pushing against any moderation or censorship or banning of peoples who are disruptions. I am on the opposite end of the spectrum. There is a great deal of people on this forum that have no interest in the spiritual journey. They are bored people who come to the forum to spout off opinions, get offended, start fights to appease their egos, to be right, and to feed their need for drama. To them it's just another forum to waste time on. If I was Leo, I would have waaay stricter policies for the forum. If someone shows they are not serious of a spiritual path, they can go somewhere else for their entertainment. The lower the consciousness of the forum, the more it will drive higher consciousness peoples away. If you cater to the lowest common dominator, that's what you get. If one is on a dedicated spiritual journey, why would they ask a lofty question, when the responses are from people who have no idea what they are talking about and just leave their ego responses for attention? If I was Leo, I would scrub the forum of anyone who has demonstrated that they have no interest in Nonduality, Awakening, the spiritual journey, or the concepts that Leo teaches. If someone is just on the forum for entertainment or ego stroking, to argue, fight against the teachings, they should be deleted, so they can go get their entertainment elsewhere, and allow those who are serious to have a safe space to support each other on our journeys. Just my 2 cents. This is for Leo, if he is deciding what to do with the forum going forward. If you disagree or want to spout off your opinion on this, don't bother. I don't give a shit about your opinion.

I don't think reincarnation should have a place in nondual teachings. To have knowledge of whether or not such a thing happens someone has to go beyond the point of no return... And then they can't come back and tell anyone what happens... I've always felt that karma is a way nondual religions have found to inject Western ideas of good and bad etc onto nonduality. It is total speculation. I feel sure both forms of death would be equivalent... Upon death none of self remains at ALLLLL. And also in mystical states, there is no such thing anymore... What happens when you remove everything "monk" about a monk and everything "Hitler" about "Hitler"? What is left is indistinguishable. It is pure consciousness. How a person gets "there" to me does not seem like it would or even could matter. Conversely, to abandon your life is ignoring relative experience. There is a good reason people actually buy and watch movies. Everyone knows they are actors etc. it does not stop us from enjoying them and getting lost in them as though they were real. So why not life? This is a movie for us to enjoy, but in first person view.

I second this. I think clearing up issues with absolute truth and relative truth is an important step in making this type of work safer for people who are just getting into it. I have seen people use the absolute perspective in situations where it isn't appropriate nor constructive. I do remember there being threads and posts of people talking about how rape isn't evil. In a philosophical discussion one can make the argument that evil is a label we project on to things to ensure we keep ourselves safe, but when you use that same statement in the context of dating advice or something of that sort, it can be incredibly damaging and gaslighting for people who have dealt with things such as rape or any other form of sexual harassment. Additionally, differentiating between absolute and relative truth and knowing where to apply it is important given the context of the situation. Blanketing over an issue with platitudes of absolute truth can result in things like false equivalency which can also lead to things like zen devilry. I'll use survival as an example. In the absolute sense everything is survival but in the relative sense there are different ways to go about it ranging from healthy and conscious to dysfunctional and unconscious. While the absolute truth that everything is survival isn't false or misleading, it can mesh together healthy forms of survival and unhealthy forms of survival resulting in the false equivalency problem. Some people can look at that without knowing how to differentiate when to implement relative and absolute truths and be feel justified in dysfunctional practices. Same with things like nonduality. While I have limited experience and knowledge regarding this subject and I'm still on the journey of figuring things out on my own, I do believe that for concepts in nonduality, again, there is a time and place for it and it's important to be able to discern that especially when advice is given. This is a good place to go through a vetting process of sorts and try to determine where people are at based on the discussion they are having and meet those people where they're at. Like for instance if someone is in a toxic situation and they can't get out due to logistical issues, it's more important to empathize and validate that experience along with giving that person coping skills in the meantime instead of telling that person that this is a dream and is all in their head since that can do more harm than good. While I do see most users understanding this, sometimes I do encounter people getting so spiritual to where they forget how to behave like normal human beings. I think addressing the time and place to effectively use what we know on an absolute and relative level can work through much of these problems. That will clarify a lot of things that people misconstrue imo. Part of learning is being able to make distinctions and having accurate discernment.

I am likely completely finished with psychedelics, last time I used I got utterly raped. From here my interest is philosophical and intellectual, no more realizations. I had nondual experiences and "no-self", as I understand from Leo on another thread he thinks no-self is also prevalent on Salvia. That is also something I used often. But the DMT triggered nonduality trips were mostly different. But anyway, this is what I am curious on... If you were talking to a 5 year old boy in a way they could understand instead of technical wording and absolute reality type stuff, when he says he would take the universe with him, to a 5 year old with no grasp on nonduality, does that mean their life ends with Leo's? Or does Leo end and other life continue? Being hung up on absolutism would be like "there are no others" but that is not what I am trying to figure he meant.

Sunny was not a 1 in a million random person that misinterpreted teachings. He was a daily poster on the forum. There are only about 30-40 members that post daily. Sunny was in the inner circle of actualized. He had a dreamboard he learned about on actualized. He wrote actualized members names on his dreamboard. He came to the forum for guidance through his first psychedelic experiences. He sought guidance via actualized before he took his life. He trusted members here. It breaks my heart to see so many people try to rapidly distance themselves from him. For a community that often speaks about how there is no separate individuals and we are all inter-connected, it's ironic how fast 100% responsibility is pinned onto a separate individual. No introspection about how the actualized community discusses topics like death, illusions of self, life as a dream etc. Yet when someone takes their life, it gets real fast and a lot of distancing occurs. . . If the self, life and death is illusory, then there was no "Sunny", his suicide is illusory and he didn't leave any family behind. Yet this would not be a tenable position to hold. On the forum, there is a lot of conflation between personal and transpersonal realms and it can cause harm to individuals. Yet some benefit as well. And a lot of good can come out be mass distribution of nondual teachings. The world is filled with intense selfishness, conflict, violence and absurd conspiracy theories. Teachings like Spiral Dynamics, relativity, nonduality etc. can help. Yet I also think there are also some gaps and structural issues. Notice the tone of conversation after Sunny's death. Mostly skepticism if it was real, distancing and finger pointing. In a healthy community, there would be an open discussion. The leader would get together with moderators in-person or via zoom. They would introspect and brainstorm ways we could improve. Then ideas would be brought back to the larger community for feedback. Yet this isn't the way actualized is structured or Leo's skillset. He is much more a top-down leader that makes decisions and he isn't into in person social meetings and discussions. I've been a mod here several years and we've never had a single meeting to discuss forum issues. It's not Leo's jam. In an effort to create more human connection, I'm happy to skype/zoom with anyone regarding nonduality, mysticism, breathwork, psychedelics, personality constructs etc. Just send me a pm and we can set something up. I think person-to-person communication is important. Sorry @Loving Radiance, I hadn't checked my journal for a bit. I think you have a good introspective question. Yes, I think allowing space to question ones own beliefs / epistemic grounds is super important. Yet unfortunately this is rare. And not just rare in spiritual communities, it can also be rare in the sciences. Scientists are often very open-minded and introspective - yet only within their whirlpool of the scientific paradigm. A couple years ago, I went to a scientific presentation on epigenetics. The researcher described data which suggests fish can predict seasonal temperature variations and epigenetically alter the gene expression of their offspring to better prepare them. After the presentation, I spoke with the scientist about the mechanics of his work. I then asked "Couldn't we consider this a form of intelligence?". There was a long pause of contemplation. It was like noone had approached him from this angle before. He responded "I suppose it could be. . . ". We then had a conversation of 'what is intelligence'? I could tell this was outside of his paradigm grounding and it was nice to see him questioning his own framework of what intelligence is. I definitely gave lots of space and I even 'played dumb' at times as if I was processing it for the first time as well. If I came at him knowing-it-all and saying "You are contracted within a scientific paradigm of intelligence with a human bias. You cannot see the higher systemic forms of intelligence" - he would have shut down.

Have you read up on Kashmir Shaivism? I find this the most accessible. It is more obscure than Advaita Vedanta. All nondual philosophies are essentially identical except in how they present things... In Shaivism they will say not that everything is illusion, but that everything is real, just that it is all "that". So in dream logic they'd say all the characters in the dream are real. Nothing is imaginary. Just it is all made of the dreamer inside of the dreamer exactly like a dream. Different semantics same meaning. Certainly it is hard to draw any distinction or line between what is real and what is not. We can agree on what is ULTIMATELY real, that is "the Source", Brahman, God, I, many such terms... How you define the appeaeances to it is down to semantics. I personally freely flip between them as it suits understanding. If explaining it to an outsider I will use full dualistic terminology with metaphors until the very end then rug pull to nonduality. I've explained it to average Joe friends this way.

What you have mentioned here is the element of nonduality which interests me most. The fact of subjective individuation. Leo in the past I saw theorized that this was because in infinity it must include these perspectives. I found that very clever. I wonder if he has changed his theory on that since then? I've theorised on it a lot myself. I came to a conclusion that it might not be our selves locked into this being that exists, but rather an """experience of me""". I used a metaphor of electricity running through two hard drives where the electricity represents awareness. The hard drives when the electricity experiences them, is experienced as separate "selves" because the hard drives are only recording information relating to their own self. Hard drive 1 cannot read hard drive 2'a data, even though awareness (electricity) is experiencing both simultaneously... Then from there switch to dream logic: The experiencer is the dreamer and the hard drives are the characters. But same function. That is my current theory.

All of these are standard nondual truths. If you cannot handle them, then stop doing spirituality and nonduality. I am not going to babysit you. The entire point of all spiritual work is to realize that death is imaginary! "The secret to life is to die before you die -- and find that there is no death." -- Eckhart Tolle "Nothing that was real ever died, only names, forms, and illusions. The end of illusion – that's all death is." -- Eckhart Tolle "When you have died this death, you realize that there is no death, and that there is nothing to fear. Only the ego dies." -- Eckhart Tolle "There is no doubt whatsoever that the universe is the merest illusion." -- Ramana Maharshi "Death is nothing else but going home to God, the bond of love will be unbroken for all eternity." -- Mother Teresa "Death is not extinguishing the light; it is only putting out the lamp because the dawn has come." -- Rabindranath Tagore "Death is a taboo in most societies in the world. But what if we’ve got it completely wrong? What if death was not the catastrophe that it is made out to be but an essential aspect of life, rife with spiritual possibilities for transcendence?" -- Sadhguru "The only reason why people have such a fear of death is they know nothing beyond the body." -- Sadhguru "Death is a cosmic joke. If you get the joke, falling on the other side will be wonderful." -- Sadhguru "Death is a fiction of the unaware. There is only life, life, and life alone, moving from one dimension to another." -- Sadhguru - - - - - - So please, spare me your crocodile tears about my teachings. My teaching are perfectly consistent with 2000 years of mystical and nondual tradition.

This is false. Many people have temporary and partial awakenings which come and are lost. In fact, this is the most common type of awakening. The temporariness of an awakening has absolutely no relation to its truth value. It is true and genuine even if it lasts 1 second. That's some no-true-Scotsman position. But if 40 years of professional Vipassana meditation haven't completely dissolved the self, then what hope do these folks have here? You are treating this issue too flippantly. I know many people who have fully realized no-self. But they have not realized God or Infinity or Love. Because those are higher and more challenging realizations. No-self is one of the easiest realizations. I could name names to you of serious people who I know for sure have not realized God, Infinity, or Love. And that is after years and decades of serious practice. So this issue is not merely one of argument for argument's sake. There is something profound which people are missing and refuse to acknowledge they are missing. You could be missing it too and not even know it. The bottom line is that dissolving the self is not the same thing as God-realization. But, dissolving the self is important, so I don't ague with that. It's just not sufficient. No-self is not Infinite Consciousness, and no amount of logic you use will change that. It does not matter if your no-self is temporary or permanent, it is still not God-realization nor Infinite Consciousness. Also, God-realization and Infinite Consciousness has nothing to do with full dissolving the ego-self. It may dissolve or it may not and it does not matter from the perspective of Truth/Consciousness. It only matters from the relative human perspective. Which is important, but it is not all-important. I agree that permanently dropping the self is not the same as a peak experience of consciousness. I have never said otherwise. And I agree that permanently dropping the self is an important part of this work. But it is not the end-all-be-all and there are much bigger things beyond. This is false. You have always been God, so that's a moot point, but you are not fully conscious of what God is even if you drop the self. Realizing God is a distinct realization from no-self regardless of its permanence. Telling people that they will realize God simply by dropping the self is not correct and it will prevent people from God-realization. This is the only reason I am here arguing with you. It is deeply misleading and I don't want this idea fed to my audience. You fundamentally misunderstand my communication about God-realization. You are taking me to be saying something about form. I am not. That is not what God-realization is about. And anyway, form and formlessness are identical, so to even make such a distinction and minimize form is already a subtle duality you're creating. I don't know where some of you guys got this idea that I am against no-self. No-self is a basic, easily insight which I have had many times and I teach no-self. I have always taught it. But then I went on to realize much greater things which make no-self look like child's play. It is not that Frank is pro no-self while Leo is anti-no-self. Leo fully understands no-self but is telling you there is something way deeper which is being missed by even very serious practitioners of nonduality. But you guys are dismissing this. Well, I can't force you to listen. Somebody someday will get it. But not with this kind of closedminded and dismissive attitude. I hate doing these nondual debates but what you are saying here goes against something very fundamental that I have committed to teaching. And so I feel obliged to make these corrections. It is like you walked into a yoga ashram and started teaching Zen. Well, what do you expect will happen? If you want to teach your version of nonduality, by all means teach it to your audience, Frank. I have never interfered with whatever it is you teach to your audience. And I have no quarrel with you. But also, please respect that I have certain things that I teach and I don't like being drawn into these clickbait debates. I have better things to do than argue about the existence of God and Love. If you disagree with me about God and Love, my teachings and this forum is not for you. It is not healthy or proper to follow a teacher who you fundamentally disagree with.

EVERYTHING IS FUNNY Example of how my brain squirts acidy insights, and how i contemplate the insights afterwards: I was peeing, and just after i flushed the toilet It just hit me that if one were to be conscious enough, one would see that everything is infinitely funny. Every seemingly separate "thing" has this infinite humor baked into it, because it's not actually what it appears to be, but it is God pretending to be that thing . So because God Consciousness has all possible qualities infinitely available at any given moment, EVERYTHING that Consciousness seemingly creates, necessarily has within them ALL possible relative qualities. A cat is not a cat, it is God. The cat has all the infinite attributes of God, It's just that God makes it so that most of those qualities are hidden from view, so that the cat part of it is revealed. Words seemingly come through the body-mind-spirit-whatever complex, so they create duality (AND nonduality, btw). So everything words can say is both true and untrue - this previous statement is both true and untrue - and THIS previous statement is both true and untrue etc. etc. etc. It is equally true AND untrue that everything is infinitely funny, or scary, or infinitely ugly, or beautiful, or more weird stuff, like infinitely red, blue, or any other color, or even things like male, female, gay, or a teapot, or a turtle, or any other thing in existence, because these words aren't actually words, they are God/Consciousnes/Love/Truth/i, which again, has super-imposed over itself, over an infinite amount of dimensions an infinite number of infinities and attributes. And i mean that: infinity has an entire infinite dimension of itself that is ENTIRELY "BLUE"! AND ONE THAT IS ENTIRELY "GAY"! AND EVERY.SINGLE.THING. that you could possibly think of, and MUCH, MUCH MORE! Why? Because infinity is infinite and it can do whatever the fuck it wants Except being infinity. That one infinity cannot escape. OOPS! EXCEPT IT CAN! - can you see how everything is both true and untrue at the same time? Even this - "true AND untrue" thing is both true and untrue. Because all dualities must collapse <--- even this is true and untrue <------ and even this is true and untrue!!! Can you see that? Right now i perceive these insights that pop up to be small glimpses into the Psychedelic God Consciousness that Leo talks about. And i can see why psychedelics are kinda mandatory if you want to explore the ful size of infinity. Because while sober these small glimpses, although quite intense at times, are no match for the ego's capacity to reconfigure itself. Of course detoxing heavy metals and having great health an having a very good concentration all help a bit, but i don't think that at this point in human evolution we should expect to be able to just soar off into God Consciousness at will LOL. I think we will definitely not be "human" anymore at that point. -So one of the things that i got the most value out of, and what started these insights to randomly pop up, is simply contemplating infinity - what does infinity imply? Things like Everything is Everything - what does that mean? Of course, that means that Absolutely there is only One thing, aka Love - the Essence of God/Consciousness But Relatively this means all sorts of funny stuff And this was an example of how random relative points of view that this body has aquired, that weren't consciously connected to infinity, get connected and add to the accumulation of Love that this body is capable of recieving, which then translates into the way it speaks and thinks and behaves, etc.

Not really... God-Realization is more complicated. Nonduality is simple: all there is, is all there is. There's no one and nothing happening. Nothing is everything. This empty appearance is neither real nor unreal. Relative is absolute. Of course by nonduality I do not mean in any way shape or form Neo Advaita, which is not ultimate nonduality.

I hear you, but my question is more about what Leo says in his latest video: ie that God Realization is something deeper than nonduality. I'm not doubting the oneness of reality. I'm more curious as to why he said God realization is something beyond or deeper than nonduality/oneness.

I've never cared about the path, this is merely intellectual to me. It's a philosophy I adopted after psychedelic use and then subsequent logical consideration. I do genuinely and truly believe it is most logically accurate, and have had mystical experiences, but my interest ends at understanding. I think others go the other way round... I became nondual because I had experience which pointed to it and I became curious. I had no choice but to believe what I do... Others instead look for a "path" to improve their lives or w.e. and believe the things in the same way someone may believe a religion... I did not even know what nonduality was until I searched "monist religions" after a DMT trip. Connor is intensely mentally ill. He claims to have been taken hostage by the government. Not even one claim he ever makes is trustworthy, and if he did do some wack shit, then oh well we all know he is literally crazy. Someone mentally balanced like Leo does not go on camera shoving his hand in wasp nests. That is madman stuff.

It is insane to be 100% certain in the idea, since it is a theory. I happen to think it's correct and I absolutely do not believe in objective morals or meaning. I am content with subjective ones. But I wouldn't kill myself for the main reason that this is literally a theory. It is not proven and it actually never COULD be for various reasons. I also wouldn't jump to my death because of many other things... But first and foremost it is clearly just a theory. A belief. If you have to sort of pull your punches then you are not really communicating what you think and might as well say nothing at all. Talk would have to be confined to secret covens or something where a few gather. I think in nonduality people make too big of a deal about there being no such things as X or Y or Z. There is objective reality and subjective reality. Leo replied to me recently describing the subjective feeling on a deep trip. That subjective feeling is different from what he would say is the objective truth. So you can see there is two sides of the coin. There is the subjective reality of being "myself" and the objective one of "being God". This is why I like Kashmir Shaivism. Identical idea but presents subjective things as real. Or Dzogchen.

@Wilhelm44 Nonduality means not two. The term points without defining. When comparing that which already seems to be defined, it is already missed there are, not two. There is not someone who knows this, nor someone to fully realize nonduality. ‘People self realized’, would be two. This has not only been covered extensively on this forum, it is literally the only apparent content of it.

Wtf. Sad to hear... There is a strange logic which could take hold if a person 100% believes in this idea. Sort of like how you might expect a Christian to kill themselves because they believe a paradise infinitely better than this awaits. Some followers of Islam in fact DO do that. The thing is that we cannot know definitively that we are right. I can prove nonduality is more logical than materialism, but not that it is right. There is also no reason to die: In nonduality it is an inescapable infinite existence. So dying would do nothing at all. A person cannot experience a conscious death as that would require their self to still exist and be around. Consciousness may be infinite and eternal but a person will not have an "experience" of death. The self will only experience the final moment of its life. It ought to be made clear to prevent anything more like this. All we all have is a belief, at the end of the day.

Because I like things exactly as they are. This is an intellectual pursuit for me. For a period of time I was going into this stuff a lot, I used DMT very often as well as acid. There was one period where I felt immense derealization. Another where I had something like an existential crisis (on the nonduality subreddit, there is a flair specifically for this type of crisis because it is common to face during such pursuits). Another time (several occasions actually) I recall thinking that if this is what reality truly is I don't WANT to know... It was like I would be walking along the streets and feel at one with walls and all sorts. I did not feel right. My loved ones became meaningless, my memories, it was not pleasant. The point is when the ego is dead these things won't matter, but you could say the same about being literally dead yet nobody is just hanging themselves or w.e. even though once dead they also "won't care". There is no question a subjective experience of "being human" exists presently. And I like mine exactly and precisely as it is. I have zero desire to change it.

Sure, but have you experienced God-realization? Even though there's no you, there's still more, even if there's no one left to do it. In a sense, you could say it's just getting into the weeds, but what beautiful weeds they are. It's not really contradicting the fact of nonduality. Unconditional Love can't help but manifest as formless infinite God. Yeah no one is doing it, but it's all there is.

He usually makes good videos on science topics, but now he uploaded this: At about 40 mins in he talks about Leo (and also features Deepak Chopra and other ppl I don't know as well in his video). The first part about Deepak Chopra and some guy named "Spirit Science" on YT i actually found to be quite funny, but then as he goes on he tries to depict Leo as a cult leader and sociopath who's manipulating his viewers i. a. to kill themselves. Basically he takes parts of random actualized.org videos completely out of context in order to establish the narrative of a cult leader. You can clearly see that he has no clue about what Leo is talking about and that he's just projecting his own assumptions/concepts onto him. For example he says stuff like "quantum mechanics is the well he draws his lies from" which makes absolutely no sense or that Leo tries to convey to the viewers that his perspective is the absolute truth while other peoples perspectives are flawed (he calls it gaslighting while not even understanding what is meant by absolute truth). He also basically says that Leo is contradicting himself by saying he is god and that you are god too or by being omniscient and yet being surprised by his doorbell ringing in one of the live awakening vids. W/e, watch the part for yourself. I guess that's how materialists interprete this stuff and nonduality. Im actually a bit spooked b/c prof. Dave usually explains stuff like really good and he also does a great job at roasting flatearthers, but depicting actualized.org as a cult and so massively misinterpreting this stuff is pretty ooga booga and probably even dangerous (and shows that he doesn't even have a clue what he's talking about or that he's very closed-minded at the very least).

What arises dependent upon conditions, does not arise. What is, is what arises and what does not arise. No separation. None whatsoever. The freedom of nonduality: what happens, does not happen. What apparently happens (seems to happen), doesn't really (actually) happen. I am you = what appears is what does not appear.