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Re-watching @Leo Gura's spiral Dynamics stage Orange video, I've manually taken notes on my OneNote Commonplace book about everything Leo explained about stage Orange in his video. Thus making a thorough and compressive summary for everyone interested in spiral dynamics stage orange. No AI was used whatsoever. Hope it helps! Enjoy! What is the essence of Orange? It's individual achievement. Improving the self. All the actions you undertake are only for your own personal gain. This is a shift from the blue worldview which was about sacrificing yourself for the good of civilization. Orange is not concerned with the afterlife. All it matters is that it lives the good life here on earth. With Orange comes the rise of: Business Consumerism Secularism The separation of church and state. Popular culture Scientism (Like science turned into the new religion) Success oriented self-help. The rise of secular democracies. As opposed to blue which had a more theocratic form of government. Stage Orange values Achievement, Success and excellence Climbing to the top of the hierarchy Obsessed at being number one. Striving to be the best, a winner. Improving one's position in life Efficiency, progress, productivity and optimization Manipulating the system and win maxing. Orange can be extremely manipulative. Orange has no problem exploiting a person or a situation Orange values action, results and pragmatism (Orange doesn't care about the afterlife, about spirituality, about metaphysics! Orange cares about tangible goods and material profit). Orange values never ending growth. Orange values capitalism and libertarianism Competitive marketplaces, deregulation, denationalization Orange values hard work, business and entrepreneurship Orange values competition and winner takes all situations Orange prides himself as being a strong competitor Orange values self-improvement The rise of the self-help industry which before was substituted with religion at the stage Blue level of development There is also green and even yellow self-help but the orange way of doing self-help is along the lines of how to manipulate the marketplace better so you get the best position in life. Orange values skills, knowledge and education Orange values confidence, optimism and charisma Entertainment and showmanship Personal freedom, self-reliance and independence (To orange being dependent for income from the welfare state is just a crutch) Free speech Money, sex and luxury Net worth (To Orange the more net worth it accumulates the more successful it is) Orange values looks, beauty, sexiness and coolness Consumerism (buying the newest Iphone, the newest Gucci bag, the newest shoes) Orange loves brands (BMW, Gucci, Iphone) Loves pop culture, celebrities and social media All the orange culture basically represents the worshipping of celebrities because to orange celebrities symbolize the pinnacle of success. Orange values quarterly profits, mass markets and sales. It is all about how to market a product to as large as a marketplace, to as many people, to make as much profit as possible. Orange is all about mass production and industry Orange values rationality, logic, secularism, science and humanism (This is huge for Orange because it takes it away from the Blue worldview which encompassed religion, traditions and authority. Thus Orange becoming rebellious and swinging the pendulum in the completely opposite direction) Orange is a full on skeptic. Values skepticism but fails to be skeptical of it's own skepticism and of course orange is not skeptical of orange itself or to science. Orange hates metaphysics and thinks that it doesn't need them. When in fact Orange's metaphysics represent atheism, reductionism and utilitarianism. Orange doesn't recognize the limits of rationality or science. Orange values technology, analysis and facts Orange values data, analytics, charts and it wants to measure and quantify everything. Orange values fact based education as opposed to blue who valued religious indoctrination. Orange values scientific methods and IQ. Orange values strategic thinking and risk analysis, innovation and creative thinking and results. Maintaining a competitive edge Competence over rank or bloodlines Orange will stab you in the back with no remorse if it can sense that it can get a favourable outcome which would be a win for himself. When does orange emerge? Orange emerges when Blue starts to recognize the limitations of itself. It is when blue realizes that this absolute truth that he was holding on to, maybe it is not as certain as it initially believed and maybe the world isn't as black and white as it initially thought it was. Maybe the divisions between good and evil are not so clear. Maybe it's religion isn't as intelligent and good as it initially thought. Maybe the bible didn't contain only good information. Maybe the people that wrote the bible didn't understand some aspects about reality. There happens a shift in blue's mind to where it starts to think more independently and starts to do away with the old conformist and authority driven way of thinking. Characteristics of Orange A drive for personal results and success and status. Autonomy and independence Tries to do away with blue's bureaucratic system Seeks the good life and material pleasures Orange is characterized by manipulating the earth's resources mercilessly. For Orange society evolves from strategy, technology and competition. Orange thrives on outdoing other orange individuals There is an aversion within orange against religion, spirituality and mysticism. To orange religion is just silly superstition To Orange there is nothing we cannot demystify about reality as long as we do more and more science. To orange reality is impersonal and it doesn't care about you, and the only reason a rock from space hasn't hit your head is just by pure luck. Orange believes that if you cannot quantify a thing therefore it doesn't exist Orange likes to point out the hypocrisy of religious blue people Orange is characterized by strong logical thinking and critical observation( Orange is quick to poke holes within religious theories or books) Orange values certificates and diplomas like PhD's and experts. Orange is focused on direct experience rather than dogma or speculation Orange believes that the world is his playground and he is very optimistic and eager to go out and make something out of himself. Orange believes that the losers in life totally deserve what they got. Because those losers were lazy. Orange has an aversion to fuzzy thinking, emotions and to love. Orange is highly logical and rational. Left Brained. All head over heart. Orange hates femininity and is all macho and tough alpha male like. To orange success is mechanical like factories, assembly lines etc. Orange is obsessed with making profits. Regardless of the means. Orange is extremely self-centred. He doesn't care about his employees or his community or the environment. All it cares is himself and his wife and children. Orange is characterized by the mantra Image over substance. If we can fake being rich then we are rich!! Orange is obsessed by physical appearance. Women are viewed as sex objects, are objectified. Orange doesn't have the capacity to exhibit love or compassion to a woman. Orange doesn't like looking weak or exposing his emotions. Orange can be blind to the suffering of other people. Can be blind by the suffering it causes to other people. Orange likes partying and living life to the full extent. Orange tries to monetize everything Orange has a more vulgar vocabulary and often speaks unfiltered and loosely. With orange comes comedy, poking fun at the status quo Orange uses intelligence rather than force. So instead of directly attacking you he will try to buy you to do whatever he wants. Orange takes calculated risks. Seeks loopholes to see how he can manipulate the rules for his own good. With orange it comes the rise of the middle class which tends to not exist in blue or red A rise with knowledge workers rather than manual laborers. With orange the churches of blue get replaced with corporate boardrooms With orange the traditions and heritages of blue become irrelevant. Who cares about them when I can forge a path just for myself. Examples of Orange United States as a whole Capitalism Emerging China Businessmen Wallstreet Business Lawyers Business suits The move Wolf of Wallstreet Hedge fund managers Goldman Sachs Big Pharma Big Oil Big banks Tobacco companies Advertising Fortune 500 companies Entrepreneurs Libertarians Professional sports High fashion like Rolex and expensive watches or purses or jewelry Nightclubs Pickup MGTOW, the red pill, the manosphere Republicans Donald Trump Ronald Reagan Plastic surgery, Botox, breast implants Pornography Hollywood as a business Supermodels Silicon Valley Start ups Bill Gates Warren Buffet Casinos Theme Parks Walmart Amazon Coca Cola McDonald's Disney Microsoft EA Electronic Arts Facebook Instagram Twitter Steam (Gaming company) Video Games as a whole. As a culture Bodybuilding Arnold Schwartzeneger Steroids Corrupt politicians NBA UEFA Champions League Anti-Unions laws Western Medicine Oracle Steve Ballmer Outsourcing, deregulations tax cuts Used cars salesman Energy drinks Marketing Sales and PR Television as a whole News outlets like CNN and MSNBC E-commerce Software engineers Technical scientists Nuclear weapons Luxury yachts Private Jets Real estate tycoons Cocaine Alcohol Pop music Rock music Club music Rap music The trophy wife The gold digger Oil drilling in Alaska Champagne and caviar Fancy restaurants Luxury resorts Cruise ships Gated communities Mansions Success magazine Poker players The self-help industry Business books Marketing seminars Dan Kennedy Tony Robbins Tai Lopez Brian Tracy Andrew Tate Dan Lok Success coaches Millionaires Net worth Sports cars Celebrities, paparazzi's Las Vegas Palm Springs Honk Kong Dubai Atheists Skeptics Separation of church and state The founding fathers The Renaissance Henry Ford The World Trade Organization Kim Kardashian Kanye West Sex, Drugs and Rock & Roll The midlife crisis Nasa Space X Elon Musk Universities Get rich quick schemes Online Millionaires Bitcoin, forex, day trading Utilitarianism Logical positivism Behaviourism Darwinism Gun rights The whole military industrial complex Sigmund Freud Harvey Weinstein The 2008 financial collapse Billboards Birth control Condoms Viagra Stem-cell research Robotics Computers Sex education Alex Jones Howard Stern The movie House of cards The movie Avatar The movie Boiler Room Sam Harris Statistics for stage Orange About 30% of all adult global population is in stage Orange. 50% of the total world influence, cultural and behavioural represents stage Orange. The government style of Orange is technocratic, capitalist, oligarchic and corporatist Unhealthy manifestations of stage Orange Environmental destruction Pollution Deforestation Global Warming Overfishing Endangering various kinds of species Depletion of resources like water aquifers The indoctrination within secularism and scientism and materialism Capitalism turned into a religious ideology The misuse of evidence and scientific studies Orange is ignorant to spirituality, god, consciousness, emotions, femininity, intuition, love and magic Orange is intellectually arrogant ( Because orange looks at how primitive blue is and because Orange is championing logic and science and skepticism, it thinks that it is better than blue) Stage Orange lacks the metaphysical and epistemic ability to self-reflect in an unbiased way Orange mistakes stage blue religion with higher post rational levels of mysticism Stage Orange cannot understand the true origins of religion and why religion is so persistent. Orange can't understand that religion comes from mysticism and from non-duality Orange cannot have a deep spiritual connection to reality Stage Orange cannot crack the problem of consciousness Orange cannot overcome the duality of mind and body Orange cannot understand post rationalism Orange can become narcissistic and self-absorbed, can lack compassion for others Stage orange first world countries exploit 3rd world countries for cheap labour. Orange can be oppressive in a corporate manner. Like when a boss overworks his employees or when companies use manipulation and schemes to false advertise a product or when they companies over-inflate their prices just for profit, or when those companies don't pay fairly their employees. Gross levels of income inequality Inhumane working conditions Orange blames the people who work in slave like conditions for being lazy and for being religious and that's why they have the job that they have because they weren't smart enough to have a better job. And the job they currently have is the one that they truly deserve. Orange is very legalistic, will use lawsuits frivolously as a weapon against it's enemies. Orange engages often in disaster capitalism which entails massive deregulations and a unchecked free marked which in turn creates a huge income inequality. Orange is prone to instable economies. Example the economic collapse in 2008. Orange can lead towards war for other nation's resources. Also the military industrial complex benefits from wars because it creates huge profits for the owners of the factories that produce weapons. Orange can lead to the corruption of government and to corporate lobbying. Orange can lead to arms races and in it's most horrific form it can lead to world wide nuclear Armageddon The greatest danger to the world is stage orange itself, because only orange could trigger a nuclear holocaust, not the religious people of stage blue Orange can architect factories than abuse the hell out of animals and subduing the animals to horrific cruelty Stage orange leads to monopolies which prevent small businesses from flourishing Stage orange leads to shallow consumerist culture Orange leads to all sorts of nasty addictions like porn, sex, drug, videogames and food addictions. The treating of women as sexual objects. Leads to those cringe alpha male posturing. Stage orange leads to depression and lots of suicides Orange leads to stuff like ulcers, ADHD, heart attack, insomnia, chronic fatigue disease and a bunch of difficult to diagnosticate auto immune disorders. In it's excesses orange leads to unbridled ambition and competitive stress Orange leads to workaholism and burnout Orange leads to a sense of isolation and loneliness Excessive orange leads to a stifling of creativity, art and beauty Orange leads to a cold technocracy where human beings become like cogs in a machine Orange leads to a loss of connection with nature Orange leads to a dysfunctional health care system Common mantras of Orange! Greed is good! Just do it! The sky is the limit! Win at all cost! Survival of the fittest! Nothing ventured nothing gained Can't take care of yourself? Grow up! Stop being lazy! I made a killing in the market today! Trickle-down economics! Each is responsible for him or herself You never get a second chance to make a first impression There is more than one way to skin a cat We can kill two birds with one stone Every man for himself Pull yourself up by your bootstraps! Fake it till you make it Work hard play hard To orange reality is impersonal and it doesn't care about you, and the only reason a rock from space hasn't hit your head is just by pure luck. What triggers orange? Orange is triggered by: Blue, Green and Turquoise God, religion, creationism, myth and superstition The new age. Like spirituality, mysticism and woo-woo pseudo-science. Hippies Alternative medicine triggers orange, like chakras, or healing an illness using your mind Reincarnation, UFO's ,intelligent design, flat earth, auras, past lives, paranormal stuff, cult leaders Astrology Feminism Irrationality Intuition Philosophy and metaphysics Constrains on business and entrepreneurship Following the rules, by red tape, and by bureaucracy Big government intervention, and government regulation and the welfare state Losers, bums and freeloaders(Orange tends to be blind of it's own privilege) Socialism, communism and communal thinking. Orange doesn't like being part of a community The thought that the universe may have human qualities like love. Identity politics and political correctness People who take too long to get to the point People who have a lack of ambition to rise above average Lack of focus on results and in action taking. Too much talking, too much planning. Orange likes to get to the point. Archaic, overly religious societies like the middle east. Hillbillies and rednecks. How to transcend Orange? Read in-depth about the limits of Orange. (The limits of capitalism, the damage that's been done to the environment etc) Read in-depth about Green (It is progressivism, caring about other beings, empathy, femininity) Stop judging stage Green Also ask yourself this: What is the price of my success? Who has to suffer so that I can bask in beauty and luxury and goods. Notice that success doesn't equate to happiness. Notice that more technology doesn't make you happy either. Acknowledge community and that you are part of a community. Mankind is a tightly knit community. Start to study spirituality Stop conflating religion with spirituality Start to see that there is more to life than pragmatism and that pragmatism doesn't make you happy at all. Notice the limits of science and technology Notice that Orange societies are unsustainable Acknowledge the damage that business does Acknowledge the gross inequality in the world Acknowledge environmental destruction Acknowledge animal cruelty in factory farming Acknowledge that socialism isn't bad Make a distinction between communism and socialism from the soviet era and all the evils that came from that and recognize that wasn't green it was actually blue. Find a heart centred life purpose Stop working so much. You work too much. Enjoy life too! Start deepening your relationships Stop treating women just as sexual objects Start to actually care about the people you are relating to. Stop buying shit that you don't need. Start taking psychadelics Reconnect with nature. Enjoy life in more rural settings! Go to music festivals Try alternative medicine Start recycling Start treating your employees like humans and not robots Acknowledge the limits of of analysis, logic and quantification Become a more holistic thinker rather than a narrow minded technical analyst. Surrender control and the desire to manipulate the system and to exploit the game. Embrace your emotions and your feminine side more Embrace your intuition Start to become more compassionate, more empathic, and more loving Cut out videogames, television and social media And lastly the master key to transcending any stage is contemplation and self-reflection, analyse your behaviour!

This seems like a higher spiral value: "To orange reality is impersonal and it doesn't care about you, and the only reason a rock from space hasn't hit your head is just by pure luck."

If you think you can fool life into making yourself into a somebody and demand that you become a somebody that's important in this life and create problems just so you can feel like a somebody....think again. Life will continue to show you how impersonal it is and how it doesn't give a shit about your fantasies about it. That poor guy on the other thread that called himself a "little me", thinks there are any "big me's" and suffers because of that belief. Poor thing. Don't realize he's the whole ocean.

Taoism and the Tao-te Ching INTRODUCTION Lao-tzu is generally acknowledged as the founder of the philosophy of Taoism. Lao-tzu's central figure is a person whose life is in perfect harmony with the way things are. The master has mastered nature — not in the sense of conquering it, but of becoming it. In surrendering to the Tao, in giving up all concepts, all judgements and desires, the mind grows naturally compassionate. S/he finds deep in one's own experience the central truths of the art of living, which are paradoxical only on the surface: That the more we are truly solitary, the more compassionate we can be. The more we let go of what we love, the more present our love becomes. The clearer our insight into what is beyond good and evil, the more we can embody the good. Until finally s/he is able to say, in all humility, "I am the Tao, the Truth, the Life." The Tao-te Ching is the first text of Taoism, and it is certain that the book was written by more than one person. Most historians and scholars now agree that the Tao-te Ching was a product of the Spring and Autumn Period. Like its contemporaries, the text discussed statecraft and offered political alternatives. It was only in the Taoism of the Chuang-tzu and the Lieh-tzu that non-involvement was advocated. The Taoists of the Tao-te Ching were not social dropouts. For them, the sage was an individual who understood the natural way of things (the Tao) and lived in harmony with it; therefore, changes in society must come from changes within individuals, and changes in individuals could come only from following the principles of the Tao. It is this feature that distinguished the Taoism of the Tao-te Ching from the teachings of Confucius. The Legacy of Shamanism in Later Developments of Taoism The most obvious incorporation of shamanic practices into Taoism was found in the religious and magical aspects of Taoism that emerged in the Han dynasty (206 BCE — 219 CE). Like the Yüeh shamans, Taoist magicians used incantations and talismans to ward off malevolent spirits and heal the sick. Indeed, the use of water and mirrors to combat malevolent and destructive forces, which can be traced back to the Yüeh shamans, is seen in the practice of Taoist magic today. Another legacy of shamanism is the Pace of Yü and the flight to the stars. This aspect of shamanism found its way into a form of Taoist mysticism known as Shang-ch’ing Taoism in the fourth century CE and inspired writings that would become a major part of the Taoist canon. The shamanic journey underground would also become central to Taoist magic and mysticism in the hands of Tung-fang Shuo, a Han dynasty Taoist, who wrote a guide to journeying through the roots of China’s five sacred mountains. Today, we find elements of these underground journeys in Taoist ceremonies: priests still enter the underworld to rescue dead souls who have been abducted by malevolent spirits. An even greater influence on Taoism came through shamanism’s impact on the philosophy of Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu. This influence is often unrecognized, because many scholars consider the Taochia (philosophical Taoism) and the Tao-chiao (religious Taoism) as opposing branches of Taoist thinking. A little-known entry in Ssuma Ch’ien’s monumental work of history titled Shi-chi (Historical Records) in the biography of Lao-tzu, reads, “Lao-tzu was a native of Ch’u, of the county of Fu, of the village of Li.” Lao-tzu, the founder of the philosophy of Taoism, lived in a society that had a strong shamanic culture. Moreover, several prominent Chinese scholars have also recently noted similarities in language construction between the Tao-te Ching and the literature of the Ch’u culture. Similarly with Chuang-tzu: the Lü-shih ch’un-ch’iu (Lü’s Spring and Autumn Annals), a history of the Spring and Autumn Period of the Chou dynasty (770–476 BCE) written during the Warring States (475–221 BCE), tells us that Chuang-tzu came from the township of Mong, in Sung, a vassal state of Ch’u. Ssu-ma Ch’ien, the Grand Historian, concurred; Chuang-tzu, he wrote, was a native of Sung, a small kingdom that got amalgamated into the state of Ch’u. The Teachings of the Tao-te Ching On the Tao The Tao is the source of life — of all things. It is nameless, invisible and ungraspable by normal modes of perception. It is boundless and cannot be exhausted, although all things depend on it for existence. Hidden beneath transition and change, the Tao is the permanent underlying reality. Although the Tao is the source of life, it is not a deity or spirit. This is quite different from the shaman's animistic view of the universe. In the Tao-te Ching, the sky, the earth, rivers and mountains, are part of a larger and unified power known as Tao, which is an impersonal and unnamed force behind the workings of the universe. However, in the Tao-te Ching, this unnamed or unnamable power is not entirely neutral — it is benevolent: "the Celestial Way is to benefit others and not to cause harm" (chapter 81, Tao-te Ching), and since "the Celestial Way follows the Way of the Tao" (chapter 25, Tao-te Ching), we can assume that in the Tao-te Ching, the Tao is a benevolent force. On Sagehood Some parts of the Tao-te ching show strong influence from the shamanic culture of Ch’u: they are to be found in the discussions on sagehood and on cultivating life. Lao-tzu was a native of Ch’u. The students who recorded his teachings were most likely natives of the same region. Philosopher-teachers of the Spring and Autumn Period rarely established schools outside their native states: most of their students came from the local or neighboring towns. The Taoist sage had abilities similar to those of the shaman of Yü’s times. S/he was immune to poison, talked to the animals, and had a body that was as soft as an infant. Sexual energy was strong, and the sage practiced methods of prolonging life. These shamanic qualities of the sage remain a permanent feature of Taoism up to this day. The Taoist sage was also a very involved member of the community; in fact, Taoist sages made ideal rulers. One of the most famous ideas of Taoism, and also the source of alot of misunderstanding, is wu-wei. This word, used in describing the sage and often translated as non-action, gives the impression that the Taoist sages “did nothing.” This is inaccurate, and could not be used to describe all Taoists. Wu-wei had different meanings for different Taoist philosophers. The wu-wei of the Tao-te Ching is different from the wu-wei of Chuang-tzu, which is different again from the wu-wei of Lieh-tzu. Wu-wei in the Tao-te ching is “going with the principles of the Tao,” and the path of the Tao is a benevolent one. Thus, wu-wei in the Tao-te ching is not “doing nothing”; it is not even the non-interference advocated in the Chuang-tzu. In the Tao-te ching, wu-wei means not using force. The sagely ruler who cares for his subjects in a non-intrusive way also practices wu-wei. Far from doing nothing, the Taoist sage of the Tao-te Ching is an active member of society and is fit to be a king. On Cultivating Life In the Tao-te Ching, the sage is one who cultivates life. The Tao-te Ching describes two methods of cultivating life: physical techniques and attitude. The physical techniques included regulation of breath, physical postures that are the precursors of calisthenics, and possibly techniques of retaining and cultivating sexual energy for the return to youth and vitality. On the matter of lifestyle and attitude, the Tao-te Ching states that desire, attachment to material things, and activities that excite the mind, rouse the emotions, tire the body, and stimulate the senses, are all detrimental to health. In the early form of Classical Taoism, it was possible to be active in politics and not sacrifice physical and mental health. The problem arises only when one gets attached to fame and fortune and does not know when to stop. The message in the Tao-te Ching is: Cultivate the physical and mental qualities of the sage; get involved and help in a non-intrusive way; retire when the work is done. The Tao-te Ching values shamanic qualities and personal power, but it does not share the animistic worldview of the shamans. Instead of accepting a world of diverse spirits, it sees the Tao, a unified and unnameable force, as the underlying reality of all things. The philosophy of the Tao-te Ching grew out of the Spring and Autumn Period; however, it was also a cultural product from the region of Ch’u. In shedding the shamanic world of diverse spirits and retaining the personal power of the shaman, the Tao-te Ching represents a transition from shamanic beliefs to a philosophical system with a unified view of the nature of reality (the Tao), the sage, and the cultivation of life.

So God is like really an conscious intelligent thing that can like things? Or is it more like an impersonal alien force which essence is to create dreams but it's not because it likes it but more because it just can?

@Ero I tried to drag you out of the river kicking and screaming, and you're still traumatized by it, months later, demanding justice, when it was something totally impersonal. The moderator who "saved" you was saccharine, and needed to nourish you. The mods are fake spiritual evil snowflakes with cloying ethics, but they're led by a strict-minded authoritarian Leo man. Leo is great on his own, but this system is terrible. Anyway, the point of this thread is future interesting incidents, like if there's a NoSelfSelf pt. 2 and Sincerity gets into a crazed fight with Leo and starts harassing, spamming, and threatening other users with violence or something neat like that.

On the Tao The Tao is the source of all things. It is nameless, invisible and ungraspable by normal modes of perception. It is boundless and cannot be exhausted, although all things depend on it for existence. Hidden beneath transition and change, the Tao is the permanent underlying reality. Although the Tao is the source of all life, it is not a deity or spirit. This is quite different from the shaman's animistic view of the universe. In the Tao-te Ching, the sky, the earth, the rivers and the mountains, are part of a larger and unified power, known as Tao, which is an impersonal and unnamed force behind the workings of the universe. However, in the Tao-te Ching, this unnamed and unnamable power is not entirely neutral — it is benevolent. "The Celestial Way is to benefit others and not to cause harm" (Chapter 81, Tao-te Ching), and since the "Celestial Way follows the Way of the Tao"(Chapter 25, Tao-te Ching) we can assume that in the Tao-te Ching, the Tao is a benevolent force.

That is exactly as you write: Leos God Realization. A very subtle (but still present) identity/subject/observer "Leo" experiencing the Ox, and projecting itself on it. Of course, it is no longer Leo or personal or anything resembling an ego, doesn't need to have a center, can (and is) already nondual, but it is still subtle identity, a subtle subject vs. object, subtle filters, "having" the God Realization. It is not utterly empty and impersonal nondual Infinite Reality itself. "Something" that temporarily arises is still having the experience. It is not permanent. Which Absolute Reality/True You is. Always here. For the utterly empty and impersonal part, see "What is enlightenment, no, I mean really, like what is it?" by Steven Norquist. The same story in Zen (in Kapleau, Three Pillars of Zen): Harada Roshi on Yaekos Kensho: "I confirm that she has truly seen the Ox .... But as yet there remains a subject who is seeing. Her Mind’s home is still far distant. She must search more intensely!" Yaekos Enlightenment: "I have reached the point of actually grasping the Ox, and there is absolutely no delusion. There is neither Ox nor man." "Those who have only kensho do not know this state of unlimited freedom and profound peace of mind. Indeed, it cannot be known until one comes to full enlightenment." If the subject can't be switched off fully sobre, it can't be switched off fully with psychedelics. Some subtle remnants preventing Enlightenment always remain. And these shut down Awakening after coming down from the trip. Not too complicated actually, but what magnificent illusions Spirit can still invent on the last mile... And there is ZERO chance to anticipate the last shift, the dropping of all filters/lenses/identities/centers/... until it happens. Because if it could be anticipated, it would have already happened. And hence, SWbtR gets his usual beatings, although increasingly in a compassionate way. Selling unlimited freedom and profound peace of mind by The River

I understand it looks like that for you . It couldn't look any different. I have no way of communicating these final steps in concepts/words to you. "Many so-called enlightened people may not have much of a sense of self, but that does not mean they have higher consciousness of God." (Full) Enlightenment doesn't mean little sense of self, or killing the ego (which remains functional, even better than before, afterwards). It is the dropping of each and any identity and center. No subtle Identity/center/separatation is left. All seen through, the loop closing itself in realtime. Boundless aware eternal Reality itself, without any possible center/identity, in which and as which all appearance flows. All of what you write, even "God-Realization", has identity/center/separation left. A "God-Realizer". That is a temporary arising mirage in the eternal unchanging Reality/Totality. Enlightenment is truly utterly impersonal Infinite Reality/Awareness. No center. Infinite and boundless. Without nothing possible besides it, without a second, in no dimension and realm. It is utterly beyond concepts and words, identities and centers, experiences and understandings. Although all of that happens within "It". Infinitely intelligent. God. Totality. Each and any subtle identity/center/duality (which by definition is separate from the Totality) has to go. All of these are temporary arisings, reflections on the water, mirage, illusions. And they are very very very subtle and tricky towards the end of the path, nothing one can talk about with concepts without having had the reference experience of the signifiers/words. What you call God-Realization is still a mirage, a reflection on the water, being had by an illusionary self (although highly awakened and developed, nondual and infinite, but not yet truly impersonal and truly centerless and hence also still reflection on the water). Not yet truly enlightened and truly impersonal. None of the "God-Realization" is eternal or timeless, or always here. You are that which is always here. All of these reflections on the water of the cycle of ignorance to God Realization happen in You. A mirage. Appearances. Changing. Dreamlike. Unreal. The last step is the falling away of that God-Realizer. That is still a subtle separation and identity. Believe or not. What remains? What is always here? What is truly real? What are you really? What is truly eternal, always the case, god-realized or not, enlightened or not? That which can never loose or gain anything, despite being enlightened or ignorant. That is It. Or True You. See you "there". Your dream-character Selling Water by the River Musical Coda: Life must have its Mysteries

Day 32 Tomorrow I'm going shopping and buying a "creation" notebook as I talked about in a previous post. It will be about making a debrief of the day as honest and precise as possible which will correlate the different conscious/personal data ("more or less controllable", in the Neville Goddard paradigm), and unconscious/impersonal. The most conscious data is the mental discourse and the imaginative process in general, what is not conscious is what is projected into the maya. Of course here we are still in duality, theoretically (idealist monism, philosophy of Neville Goddard, Berkeley, Maharshi...) and experimentally (Psychedelics in particular 5 MeO DMT, Awakening during meditation or yogic practices in general...) we can go beyond duality, but with our current level of consciousness we must always play with it and the simplest is to represent reality as such a duality, conscious/unconscious echo chamber. Neville Goddard wrote "emotion is the secret"; I see what is perceived as an emotion as a crossroads between the conscious and the unconscious. I have the belief that I can move my arm by thought, and this belief is justified in a whole bunch of ways; I do not however have the belief that I can fly and access to this frequency will therefore be automatically blocked as I seek it and therefore confront myself with the limiting belief. Have you heard about the paradox of the soccer ball that will never reach the goal? Because before crossing the 10 meters that separate it, it will have to cross 9.9m, then 9.99m, then 9.99999999999m and this to infinity. The objects of the maya, as limits, function in such an asymptotic way: The more you imagine it, the more you fix it. Even if I want to do something as simple as drinking water, if I overinvest impulsively (consciousness) in the image of drinking water, it will not trigger the motor part to experience bringing my bottle of water to my mouth and consuming it; It is the absolute persuasion that it happens, absolute if not just enough for it to take "time" rather than seeing the water directly teleport into my mouth, that allows the experience, otherwise I would be stuck like the ball 0.0000001 meters from the goal. That is why those who talk about manifestation insist on starting from the principle that it happened/is happening, especially not that it "should" happen. Feeling (once again the personal/impersonal dichotomy is an illusion of duality, in absolute terms everything is consciousness and there is no difference between "I" and "it", neo advaita 101 lol, which is conscious/unconscious, always in the sense used by Neville Goddard) is like a "back door" in the sense that it is an experience that is quite easy to induce by the human imagination, and at the same time quite tengible, objective to influence the conscious and therefore ultimately the whole echo chamber, the belief system at the origin of creation. This is the greyhound.

The freedom I speak about all the time. The freedom that is already the case but not for the individual. Not for the person. Impersonal freedom. Freedom to appear as it wants. Freedom is already the case. The individual can never be free because the individual is freedom appearing as that. Freedom appearing as not free can never be free. It can only appear as it appears and cannot become something. It already is. So if there's an individual, it's automatically not free because there just isn't two forms of freedom. Only "existential freedom" appearing as everything. .

God and god Query: Is God an abstract and meaningless idea? Reply: At first I was puzzled by your question, because it sounded as though you were asking whether God exists -- but you didn’t word it that way, and besides, I know you do believe that God exists. From previous correspondence, I suspect that you are relaying a question from skeptical acquaintances whom you aren’t sure how to answer. So I’ve given some thought to what they might mean by suggesting to you that God is an “abstract and meaningless idea.” Perhaps the difficulty is that the terms “God” and “god” are used in several different senses. Sometimes the term “god” is used for whatever it is to which someone gives his unconditional commitment. This is what we mean when we say of a greedy man, “His god is money.” There are lots of gods of this sort: Sex, Me, Power, Reputation, and so forth. Since almost anything might be someone’s “god” in the sense of unconditional commitment, I can see why someone might say that the term is meaningless. But if we ask what deserves unconditional commitment, there is only one answer, and that is the God whom we worship. Sometimes – although the term “god” itself is not often used in this way – people call themselves “religious” because they have elevated feelings. If, for example, they have feelings of awe when they look at the sky, they say they are “religious.” Since people may have elevated feelings about almost anything – from the Hubble Space Telescope to the Oprah Winfrey show -- in this sense too I can see why someone might say that terms such as “god” and “religious” are meaningless. But if the question is what ought to arouse our loftiest feelings, again there is only one answer: The Creator, whom we call God. Sometimes the term “god” is used for a being who has vast powers, like the beings of the Greek myths (or like Marvel comic book heroes). Though God is powerful, this is not what we mean by God. The “gods” of mythological were contingent beings like you and me. They didn’t have to exist; something would have had to cause them to exist. But the true God, as Christians understand Him, exists necessarily. He can’t not be. Those “gods” existed in the same way that you exist; they just had more of everything. But God is the answer to the question of why there is something and not rather nothing – why anything at all exists apart from Him. Those “gods” were products of human imagination. But there is, and can be, only one First Being. God, then, is not a meaningless abstraction, but the Being above all other beings. I can think of one more thing your acquaintances might mean in saying that God is a meaningless abstraction. They may mean that whether He exists or He doesn’t exist, it makes no difference; life goes on the same way. But if God is what Christian faith claims He is, then this is far from true: God is not only the First Cause on which all other being depends, but the First Meaning on which all other meaning depends. Apart from Him, life is absurd. He is the greatest and most praiseworthy thing. Surely something is wrong with us if we cannot admire what is infinitely greater than ourselves. Since He is the supreme and uncreated Good, we depend on Him even to put the goods of this life in right order. Without His providence, we are constantly tempted to do evil so that good will result. Without His grace, we cannot be forgiven our wrongdoing. What is impersonal cannot forgive; morality, as such, has a heart of stone. Without the same grace, we cannot be healed of our brokenness. Moral discipline can accomplish something, and that is good, but eventually it hits a wall. Without the same grace, we cannot make sense of our suffering, because we cannot offer it to be united with His sacrifice for us. Finally, even in the unlikely event that we have all this world offers, we are compelled to ask, “Is this all there is?” That which cannot be found in this world must be found out of this world. In the vision of His face is that perfect fulfillment which leaves nothing further to be desired. jbudziszewski's blog Copyright © J. Budziszewski. Site information. RSS feed.

@Breakingthewall This still sounds like the idea that one day selfish and evil people will get what they deserve like the just world fallacy. My father used to preach to me about how evil people would one day get what was coming to them as he read the bible to me. I'm not convinced that these types of people are horrified at what they have become. My understanding of karma is much more nuanced than the fancy dressed up way of saying selfish people will ultimately fail. I see karma as multi dimensional and not just as a moral calculus. I see it as multi generational with extremely complex consequences which cannot be clearly calculated. For example there can be karma from my family of criminals which created intergenerational trauma by creating a chaotic environment. Of course I ended up being hurt deeply without asking for any of this. Me being hurt without any fault of my own is a consequence of karma spanning across generations. It is not wrong or evil. Karma is impersonal even if it means innocent people get hurt because of it. Here is how my father described karma. "I am a good, honest drug dealer. I don't mix my drugs with rat poison. My crack is so good that my customers constantly come back looking for more. I end up making even more money off of this. This is a sign sent from God that I am a good person and what goes around comes around. God is rewarding me with more money and customers for this crack. I don't really believe in the devil, but I do believed that evil people will get what's coming to them."

I agree, there's something special about meeting a saint IRL It's true that with geniuses is more about what they do and give to the world than themselves. Their inventions and insight are impersonal and evolve beyond themselves in a chain like fashion. It's a contribution to the body of Knowledge at the end of the day. That puts it into perspective. Awakening is that which you didn't know you desperately needed.

@Fran11 I wouldn't say you are coming from ego, I would say you are coming from the perspective caused by a drug experience which is necessarily impermanent because it's just a drug experience. If you worked up to that on your own worked hardware then the duality you're creating between an impersonal inhuman "oneness" and then "the human dream" would collapse.

I agree. Here are some distinctions about suffering from the Fourth way. Four types of suffering Unnecessary Suffering, Unavoidable Suffering, Voluntary Suffering and Intentional Suffering. The first is Unnecessary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we incur because of our unreasonable attitudes and expectations towards others, from our ill-will, hatred and rejection of others, from doubt, possessiveness, arrogance and self pity. In other words, suffering arising from our self-importance. The second is Unavoidable Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that comes to us by accident or from events beyond our control, such as interpersonal conflicts, war, disaster, disease or death. Third, we have Voluntary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish a personal aim, such as an athlete who disciplines himself to win a race, or a student who labours to get good grades. And finally we have Intentional Suffering. According to Bennett, this would be the kind of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish an impersonal or altruistic goal, one that is directed more towards service to others or to the Work, and not for any personal gain. Bennett assumes that this is what Gurdjieff meant by Intentional Suffering. From an article on the second Conscious Shock https://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_is_talk_ae2005.htm

If you claim to be love, how come you're speaking of it here as if it were an action, or an "impersonal person"? You mean yourself, right? Good and evil exist in relationship to you and to what you determine to be such, whatever that assessment is based on: morality, education, programming, culture, wishful thinking.

Well..you want to say that the absolute or the true nature of existence is not a "he"(or she )? Meaning it is not a sentient being like a human or animal or alien etc ? Well look at your own self . Aren't you a sentient being ? Why is it so far fetched to think the source of you as a conscious person is also a conscious person? In the end ..The duality between personal and impersonal must collapse at the absolute level because like I said its ineffable and beyond words . You can call it absence of limits..you can call it god ..you can call it "42"..etc these are just words . The thing which the words point to can only be accessed by the spiritual seeker himself. That's why different religions and spiritual traditions describe the absolute in slightly different ways..it's impersonal In Hinduism but personal in Abrahamic religions. Etc

The only contradictory point I see in this analogy is the dreamer who can do whatever he wants. This would imply that he is someone, God, and I would say (or better , it's 100% sure) that ultimately there is no one, no will or intelligence. These are secondary creations. When everything dissolves what remains is the total amplitude that is, and it seems that given its absence of limits it flows creating cyclical structures and it cannot not do so, it is the nature of reality, and it is impersonal. The personal is the illusion, not because it is false but because it is a relative creation of reality reflecting on itself that occurs due to the incessant flow inevitable due to the permanent instability of the infinite given its infinitude Absolutely 100%. Without fully assuming this reality you only navigate on the surface, you cannot go deeper.

Written Tue Jan 7 5:40 PM Eastern I will eventually do 15 minutes of mirror staring watching the energy and dreams stream across and in my right eye. I will eventually stare at the Leo voodoo doll while listening to the ohGr album undeveloped, watching the energy and streams alter the consciousness of Leo and its relation to space, time, mystery, and eternity. But after posting this I will transmit the dream into Leo's future night. The clear intent is that the first dream becomes an impersonal white misty energy that coheres the energies of his ongoing dream and grants him lucidity. He has a physical body (though not recognizable as his physical Las Vegas body) standing in a room with white tile floors, white tile walls and ceiling. Blue flashes of light are in the room, they merge in patterns until a mirror appears, a normal mirror. Leo sees my face. He immediately wakes up and the dream does not fade from physical memory or mental working memory, it is glued and sticky. He treats it as a psychological event. Now he has the choice to enter back into sleep. If he enters back into sleep he returns to his normal dream routine but with an added force of magnetism projected into its stream of images, things are more coherent at lower neurological levels than usually they would be. When he awakes he remembers still the first dream I sent to him, for his own subconscience and tendencies could not unstick it from the system, it is etched in memory. If he neglects to go back into sleep the dream obviously remains in conscious memory.

In the beginning and mid stages of the Awakening process, Reality is perceived as being what is, neutral or equanimous. That's till one discovers that Reality is the manifestation of Absolute Love. In the same way that when you add all colours you have white or LIGHT, not black and not a rainbow either. It is true that it's a cold love or an impersonal love, which can be disilusioning at first but as one opens up and surrenders more, it is seen that at all levels, Reality is a race or asymptote towards ever more Infinite Love. For something to exist it has to be loved enough for it to exist, in actuality being and love are identical. It makes my eyes wet and draws a smile in my face just expresing these great truths and being in tune with existence in such a way. See all that you care in your life is to feel LOVE Only LOVE is enough. Only LOVE scratches the itch. Only LOVE satisfies. That's what Reality IS What you and me: What everything happens to BE You're loved so much you're allowed to be miserable. Reality is in such a way that loves everything as it is, such is the brutal cold nature of Love.

Not sure if my answer will help or sound whacky; just ignore if it doesn't resonate: This is unconditional love/freedom/liberation already. Which means nothing is exempt. NOTHING. Even hate. There's no one hating. The energy of hate (as we call it), just is. We, as the individual believes it's our hate. We believe we're hating something, but we're not. It's just raw, unfiltered energy that feels like hate to the individual. It's not yours, but you can't see that because from the moment you identified with the body/mind/ and as an individual/person/human who is at the center of the Universe, everything now revolves around you. It's an illusion. There is no one hating. It feels like you're hating but it's hate appearing and you've attached to it because the person can't help but do that. It's what it does and it does that with everything. You want to be free but freedom is not for the individual. It can't be free. It's impossible. Why? Because freedom is already the case and it is impersonal. If you identify as a person, you have now conditioned it. It's so free, it can appear to not be free, which is what you're experiencing. If you want to be free of hate, you will have to not see hate, not define what you're experiencing as hate, not see yourself as a person hating. You and every other individual being has a sense of self, including myself. I'm not saying you need to do anything about that. Just recognize that it's not the case, what you feel is a result of this energy that feels like a separate someone and just notice the emotions come and go without judgment. Allow for them to subside on their own. When that feeling of hate comes up, let it, do nothing and sit with the feeling while going about your business. The more you fight it, the more it latches on. Take no action to try and do anything about it because that's how you strengthen it's attachment. If you don't want to feel hate, don't identify with hate allow hate to be there and it will go back from whence it came without any problems whatsoever. Don't give meaning to it, don't try to manipulate it. Let it be. This takes practice, but the more you do this, the easier it becomes and you will find yourself free of that energy because it's not responding to the energy that you're emitting anymore.

The first bold "I" was a little bit too much, that is why it (mind) had to go (second bold marking, and below): and there the "I" went... "my mind still made a distinction". That is what "I"s and "minds" tend to do. Sneaky stuff... Everbody can make up their own mind what these bold markings mean... Here is Bassuis version of the same process/topic: "At work, at rest, never stop trying to realize who it is that hears. Even though your questioning penetrates the unconscious, you won’t find the one who hears, and all your efforts will come to naught. Yet sounds can be heard, so question yourself to an even profounder level. At last every vestige of self-awareness will disappear and you will feel like a cloudless sky. Within yourself you will find no “I,” nor will you discover anyone who hears. This Mind is like the void, yet it hasn’t a single spot that can be called empty. Do not mistake this state for Self-realization [half-baked No-Self], but continue to ask yourself even more intensely, “Now who is it that hears?” If you bore and bore into this question, oblivious to anything else, even this feeling of voidness will vanish and you won’t be aware of anything—total darkness will prevail. [Don’t stop here, but] keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning [killed/transcended the of the remaining subtle No-Self-Identity, resulting in True No Self, which is not a "No-Self" anymore but eternal infinite impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Reality] will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present." [brackets] by WbtR And instead of reading the musing-collection of WbtRs archive below, better enjoy the holiday season! https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=thisdell&author=Water by the River https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=impersonal&author=Water by the River Can not some AI make Water by the Rivers retirement final? Any charming AI reading along? With the greetings of the seasons... ... Selling Water by the River "form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. That which is form is emptiness, that which is emptiness form. "is the supreme mantra which is able to relieve all suffering": Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha: Gone, Gone, Gone Way Beyond, Gone Way Way Beyond: Uh what a Realisation! https://www.till-gebel.com/post/heart-sutra-as-spiritual-development-project-daniel-p-brown

So last night, I was headed to a friend's house and stared driving over there. My car's bluetooth picked up my music where it left off which was a binaural beat youtube video that said it was good for ADHD. I was listening to it earlier in the day while doing some other work. Two hours prior I did NN DMT, 3 decent hits from a vape pen thing, the experience lasted 10 minutes or so, as it normally does. Immediately after, I sat upright, cross legged for open eyed meditation. Strong determination style, allowing itches, the pain in my knees from being cross legged etc. During this time, it felt like the right thing to do to treat my thoughts as if they were coming from a little kid, I would give them an inner smile. I meditated for about 1/2 an hour then started getting ready for my drive. Getting ready took me another hour and a half or so. Now back to the drive. At some point during the drive a sudden sense of having lost complete control came up. My car had gone from being driven by me, to me being pulled along by the car!. Each traffic signal, every car, every person on the sidewalks, the moon, the night . . perfect and uncaused and impersonal. The acceleration of the engine, each transmission shift, the decisions to change lanes, all of it perfect. The movements of the body (and the frightening realization that it was vulnerable and could die at any time), the thoughts that came in, teary eyes and now a racing heartbeat. "What the fuck?" "Everything is moving by itself" "Am I gonna die? (did I say that?)" "Am I driving or . ." Were among some of the thoughts that came up. It felt like I was being pulled along by something I couldn't see, and that it had been pulling me forever. The absurd idea that his house was a "house" when I pulled up. The 16 minute drive was wilder than the NN DMT trip I had a week earlier or anything from just a couple hours prior. It's been on my mind all day today, and honestly even after writing this I'm not quite sure that I've explained what I actually experienced. I didn't want to wait too long to mention this as I'm still processing it as we speak.

Yes so true! Duality is not opposites, just both things existing at the sametime, if Love is created and exists then Hate has to exist and visa versa, its a circle not a separate entity or thing, its just as Humans we can chose to Love or Hate as an example, and this applies to anything, you can see or experience the impersonal God or the Personal God as he says, so that is one of our basic Capabilities, choice or Free Will in this regard... The problem happens when You have absolutist (the non dualist here) or the atheist (dualists, materialist, egoic types), both exist, we have access to both, deny one or the other, then your off base and half right half wrong, which causes suffering and further delay in knowing Truth as it is!!