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@Dazgwny Psychedelics gave me total ego dissolution and turned me on to nonduality as a result. But I have made much more progress sober, going over the logic of the metaphysics and considering things in my daily life. It might be of no use for Spira to use psychedelic drugs if he is already enlightened. I have no interest in being enlightened but some elements come with the package of belief without much choice in the matter.

If that's how you define God, then you're right.. you are not God. You think 'God' and 'the laws of physics' are 2 different things. Because all words are metaphors, and as metaphors go it's a fairly commonly understood one, even though (you and I might agree) it carries a lot of baggage and there is much disagreement about what it means. We could use other words.. like 'Everything' or 'Consciousness' or 'The Universe' if you prefer.. all just metaphors. You are Everything. You are Consciousness. You are the Universe. These sentences all point to the same thing, but it's tricky to understand what is being pointed to, especially if you don't deeply grasp what a metaphor is, what duality/nonduality is and how it works, etc. It's similar to saying, 'The inside is the outside'.. this sentence seems contradictory, but it's really not. Inside implies an outside, outside implies an inside. The word 'inside' only has meaning relative to 'outside'. There is no such thing as 'just the inside' of something. Inside only has meaning relative to outside. You are only 'who you are' relative to 'that which is not you'. That which is not you defines who you are. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I don't think anyone on this thread uses the word 'God' to mean, 'some magic entity which exists outside of reality who can manipulate reality', but this is the definition you are arguing against, because that's how you define it. This is a such a silly semantic argument.. it's like telling someone who says, 'I'm going to run to the store real quick.' that they'd get there quicker by driving. When they said 'run to the store' they meant 'drive to the store', but by purposely misrepresenting what they meant, you give yourself the opportunity for a quick pedantic zinger. If you meant drive, why use the word 'run'"? Well, because 'run to the store' is a commonly understood metaphor that many people understand to mean 'drive to the store', and so in this instance 'run' doesn't mean 'jog quickly'... but if metaphor is completely lost on you, you won't get it.

In 2009 I took about 5 gms of mushrooms on the beach of the Oregon Coast. I felt a pull from my chest, that I naturally resisted. But I had the thought, "lets see what happens if I stop resisting it?". Once I did I left reality and went to the place of white nothingness, and knew that it was all one. I knew that there was no separation of anything, and that it was inconsequential if I went back, as it didn't matter, as it is the same thing. This was my very first Spiritual/Mystical/Awakening experience, a decade before I learned what any of that meant. Weird thing was, that day, I could have an Awakening at will, meaning I could choose to leave my body and go to the place of white oneness, by choosing to do so. I did at least 5 times throughout the evening. Each time longer than the last. The last time I did, I was gone so long, hours, that it was night time by the time I came back. My legs were so numb, I had to rock back and forth, to get the feeling back in my legs, to be able to even walk. That night, my girlfriend and I were able to talk to each other through thought (telepathy). And I was able to manifest impossible things to happen at will. Such as, it was then nighttime and dark out. There was miles of dunes ahead of us. I said to my GF, telepathically through thought "we need to find your sandals", as she had taken them off somewhere on one of those thousands of sand dunes. At that moment, I stopped and looked down, and they were there in front of me. Crazy day for sure. It wasn't till a decade later did I learn about Spirituality and Nonduality. Now that day on the beach makes much more sense as to what happen. My question is, has anyone ever heard of someone being able to, on a psychedelic, be able to have numerous Awakenings at will, to be able to go back and forth by choice, and stay as long as you want? How common is it to have telepathy when on a psychedelic?

When you encounter the divine, God is an intuitive term. Like saying love when you feel love for a person. It might not be a literal sky daddy God or any of this, but the term is what springs to mind when confronted with something of such intense power. I considered my own experiences of heavy DMT breakthroughs to have been religious experiences. Nonduality when realized is something very much divine.

While I have been exploring "truth" through experience, there is one area that I really feel is quite unclear for me. In another thread someone posted this video where he attempts to explain "Oneness". (Not necessary to watch it). While I certainly fully grasp the idea of Oneness, Nonduality and/or Holism, how do you explain Solipsism (or lack thereof) as a truth? Example: I get it. There is no tree without the sun, the rain etc and from my perspective, I am creating separations between things. I also understand oneness from the perspective that fields of consciousness must in someway or another belong to some grand scheme of "everything"/Brahman. What I don't get is, how WE are all one, if we, as unique experiential fields are "infinitely" separate from one another, from an experiential point of view? I understand that there is no separation between different people, as physical objects, but at the end of the day, I still experience a "me" and I trust that other people are also experiencing a "me". I feel like Leo tends to sidestep this discussion and often makes comments like "for all I know, you are just my mind playing tricks on me" bla bla. and I have seen other people (mods) saying things like "who said other people are conscious"? What are your thoughts on this? How have you guys made conclusions on this? I hope for something more elaborate than "I can't explain it in words". EDIT: Sorry for this obnoxious comment but please do not reply to this thread if your reply will simply be a one-liners like "all is one" "because it is" etc. "isn't it so?". Please take a moment to elaborate your thought. I understand that not all things can be explained through words, but please at least try.

Holism & Holistic Thinking - Part 2 "Aberrations of the human mind are to a large extent due to the obsessional pursuit of some part-truth, treated as if it were the whole truth." -- Arthur Koestler Essence: The higher elevation perspective helps melt away problems since new solutions arise which weren’t available before. Many of your problems stem from a lack of holism and often you don’t see it. Goal: Experience the shift and start to see how important and serious holism is. It’s a massive tree trunk and people just dismiss it as a hippy idea of alternative medicine. You can’t just compartmentalize science from nutrition, diet from psychological well-being, well-being from relationships, etc. They’re not separate things. Collective problems: Environment & ecology Littering and introducing new animals in foreign territory. When you don’t see all the interconnections of systems you overlook a lot and things spiral out of control. Western medicine The lack of holism is almost criminal, and, in the future, you’ll be able to sue a doctor for behaving this way. They’ll only look at a very narrow band of problems that you have. If it matches their little list of symptoms, they might help you. If it doesn’t, they don’t even think it’s a serious problem. Holism = health Nutrition Consider nutrition as a whole. Nutrition is not limited to any one of those things. That which causes you to lose fat does not necessarily mean it’s healthy for you long term. And being a vegetarian or vegan for ethical reasons also doesn’t mean it’s healthy for you long term. You can be a vegan and eat garbage food. (Fake sausage & cheese, potato chips, sugar) People get stuck debating the minutiae of these various diets, get tribal about it, missing the big picture. Fad diets will reduce nutrition down to either calories, carbs, protein, or fat. There are many different variations of all these. There's much more data to be listed on the back of products and in restaurants. Capitalism and business The way business is conducted today ignores so many important and huge domains and aspects of human life. Art, spirituality, the environment, health, social well-being and cohesiveness, the health of the society, and ignores the health of humanity at large. It also ignores the impact that this has on your epistemology and on your worldview. It's just looking to extract money from these things and isn't participating for the sake of it. Marketing Extremely unhealthy & toxic right now. Ignores societal well-being, the psychological ecosystem of human minds that it infects and corrupts with the mind viruses that it feeds. One of the greatest scandals of the last 50 years is the toxic effect that marketing has had on human minds. A scandal that nobody even talks or thinks about or understands at all. Zoomers are using technology even earlier than past generations and it keeps getting worse. All of that combined together leads to everyone shitting in the pool and soon enough we're all swimming in a pool of shit. It's subtle because marketing is not a tangible thing like a war happening. "Especially when we're talking about the health of society as a whole, we need to be extremely holistic and take all of these factors into account and find the proper balances." Geopolitics A lack of holism in geopolitics leads to something like the Iraq war. War is a lack of holism. Science Science ignores metaphysics and epistemology and dismissed these as unnecessary to the work of science. This is extremely ignorant and unholistic. The scientist assumes we can keep doing science as we've always been doing it all without questioning the deepest assumptions. But the scientific method itself hinges upon an implicit metaphysics and epistemology that you have. Materialism for most scientists and it's taken as truth, the default position. Our education system doesn't train them any better. And with that attitude, we keep on doing materialistic and reductionistic science staying confused as to why it isn't progressing, and certain problems can't be resolved. Those who've gone beyond scientific materialism have resolved the mind-body problem, but to academic scientists, it's still very mysterious and thorny. Science ignores consciousness and spirituality dismissing them as unscientific and unworthy of scientific study or unexplainable by science. They think that matter is one thing and consciousness is something else. Many of the best epistemic and metaphysical lessons discovered 100 years ago in quantum mechanics are not generalized out to other domains enough. Entanglement, subject-object duality, superposition, etc. Mathematics Gödel's incompleteness theorem. Episode: The Metaphysical Implications of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem Generalizing it out to other domains requires holism. Scientists, mathematicians, and logicians are very locked into their own little bubble. This conservativism makes them not care about anything beyond their formalized logic or formalized subdomain. Psychology It ignores spirituality, nonduality, philosophy, and the importance of metaphysical, epistemic, and existential considerations when treating patients. That's why therapists doing psychoanalysis and talk therapy tend to have very poor results with curing patients. Usually, the patients have a deeper problem at the spiritual/existential level, at the epistemic/metaphysical level. Most psychologists are not trained for that and might even consider those things to be nonsense and not real medicine. They understand human psychology and behavior at a surface level because you can't without deep spiritual work on yourself personally. You can't be psychologically healthy without understanding the ego and the above. Logic Logicism during the early 1900s by Frege, Russel, Whitehead, Hilbert. The idea that mathematics was nothing more than the logic behind it and the shuffling of logical symbols in a formalized way. Tried to reduce all of mathematical truth to that, miserably failing at it. Gödel's IT and Russel's Paradox put the nail in the coffin after 30 years of that. He didn't consider the paradoxical nature of consciousness and of symbolic understanding. Logical Positivism All of science can simply be boiled down to simple true or false statements about the nature of reality. Is the sky blue? True or false? Is the sun hot? True or false? It's ridiculously reductionistic and ultimately self-contradictory and false. But at some point, some of the greatest philosophers in the world believed in this. "This is the history of Western intellectual tradition and how deeply reductionistic it used to be and how badly that failed because reductionism fails. That's the problem with reductionism, is that it keeps failing. And the reason it keeps failing is because reality is a Unity! And if it is a Unity you can only understand it as a whole, not as bits and pieces." Science ignoring psychedelics Treating it as though it's an unscientific thing. "The real breakthrough will be when serious scientists start taking psychedelics themselves and using them to see the limitations of science, that'd be true holism right there, but we're a long way from that." Technology A lot of ethics are ignored. A lot of technologies are just invented for the sake of inventing them for business purposes because technology and business are closely related. It's much harder to do business holistically than unholistically. Einstein's Relativity First developed special relativity, a very narrow application of relativity to just velocity in one direction, a very special case. Einstein wasn't fully happy with that. What about accelerations, rotational forces, and intuited that relativity needs to apply to those things as well. Came up with general relativity, expanding the narrow discovery to something much larger. Space-time and that really gravity was just the mass exerting a distortion within space-time, four-dimensional space. But we can't stop there… If he was truly holistic in his thinking, he'd generalize relativity, even more, applying the concept of relativity to everything in the universe. Including the human mind, science, religion, different cultures, the actual physical existence of objects, and the physical existence of the universe. Absolute Relativity = Awakening He stayed stuck within the little domain of physics and didn't break through that. Episode: Understanding Relativism Education Perhaps the biggest source of social problems. Ignores personal development, EQ, Love, epistemology, metaphysics, spirituality, nutrition, health. Leading you to believe, after 12 years of ignoring these, that 'they don't even exist or if they did they would have taught me!' Really the education system should be Actualized.org curriculum. Actualized.org spawned rather organically from Leo's holistic orientation and interest in researching and finding the deepest lessons that one can learn in life. Scientific studies in general They're extremely narrow and unholistically designed leading to very narrow results which can easily be recontextualized in the future by other data and studies. Individual problems: Living a hedonistic lifestyle & eating junk food You're not thinking about how this affects your longevity, health, how this contributes to your ability to do your work and fulfill your life purpose, to love and have sex, to raise children. Same thing with when you're not exercising. Staying at a job that pays very well but doesn't satisfy you It doesn't satisfy you because it doesn't align with your life purpose and highest values. This is the bigger problem that needs to be addressed. Workaholic lifestyle Seems nice at first thinking in terms of the next year or two but thinking about your career and business and your productive output over the span of your entire lifetime these things are laughably stupid. Not considering how their work connects with their relationships, marriage, sex life, health, children, friends, family. You need all those things to be in balance to have a happy life. Avoiding going to the doctor Starting a work project but then losing track of the ultimate goal of what the project is about It's very easy to get stuck in one thing. Being cheap when hiring employees This requires a long-term holistic approach. Lying in relationships A long-term honest relationship can't be built on lies. An unholistic person is not thinking about how to sustain the health of the relationship. Not just from your selfish personal needs. The third holon is the relationship itself which requires a lot of selflessness. Pickup community Ridiculously unholistic. All about the male perspective, as though the female perspective isn't even important. Gamers can get laid effectively, but when it comes to having deep fulfilling relationships with women, these pickup guys are so far away from being able to do that. In fact, pickup makes it even worse because it trains you with a very unholistic, deeply self-biased attitude towards sex, dating, and relationships. Episode: A rant against the pickup community Staying married for the sake of children Ripping off your customers when doing business Not going to work out long-term. Dismissing the importance of theory Your practice will be very limited. Theory shows you new ways to practice and allows you to introspect deeply about your practice and that maybe it's useless. How do you know the practice you're doing is the best one? Only through theory. An unholistic duality. Episode: Theory vs practice balance Loans and credit Super unholistic economical idea both collectively and individually. Not doing spiritual work Can't just skate by without any existential consideration. You'll suffer deeply because of this especially when getting older and facing death. The last few years or decades will be one of your most miserable years. The duality between the individual and collective level is itself brokenness and fragmentation in consciousness. Think of them as the two strands of the DNA helix. Contemplate: How many problems in the world are the result of unholistic thinking? How many of your personal problems, or the problems of people you know, are the result of unholistic thinking? Beware of teachings, endeavors, or projects which are not holistic: Success-based, materialistic, self-help teachings or business of that same nature. Western medicine, physics, mathematics, philosophical schools, religions, or even spiritual schools, cults, and political ideologies. Buying into any of these things too much and taking them as the ultimate truth is going to lead to problems; disease, suffering, and brokenness. Why is what's being said in this episode so important? Lack of holism = paradigm lock. What's defined as "evil" is defined by whatever paradigm you've locked yourself into. The most powerful tool for breaking out of these paradigms is holism. This ultimately leads to jailbreaking the mind, infinite holism. The mind jails you by getting you comfortable in a less than infinitely holistic way of thinking about reality. Corruption Corruption = a lack of holistic intelligence. Episode: How Corruption Works Catch-22 of holism: "Thinking holistically requires appreciating the value of holism. But, to see and appreciate the value of holism requires that you're seeing holistically." Hence all the examples of how problematic it is to not be infinitely holistic in your understanding of reality. It directly leads to suffering for you and for all of mankind. It's a hedonic treadmill, the path to hell. The holistic path leads to the opposite, not easy, requires wisdom, but deeply rewarding. Many aspects of life and reality cannot be understood without significant holism: Sexual dynamics between men and women within relationships. Conflict and war. Trauma, evil, corruption. How to create a healthy society. ...etc If you value understanding you have to be holistic. Components of holistic thinking: Taking all levels of being into account, the higher and the lower. Taking responsibility for everything, which makes it so challenging. Awareness of your effect on the whole. Internalizing externalities. Accounts for systemic emergent properties. (Example) Accounts for backfiring mechanisms, counter-intuitiveness, and non-linearity of reality. Sees how the part fits into the whole valuing both the whole and the parts. Sees how all dualities must ultimately all reunite. Requires a long-time horizon, vision-logic. Requires considering relevance, priority, context, and balance. Requires considering the greatest good for all without selfish needs. Do you genuinely care about the whole? Are you willing to be selfless for the sake of the whole? The highest leverage to becoming holistic is first and foremost to solve your survival challenges permanently in a healthy way. Different degrees of holism: Politics Politics is about fighting off those evil other guys. Politics is about money, sex, power, and domination. Politics is about creating a better and fairer society; it's about reducing suffering. Politics is about elevating the consciousness of mankind and increasing collective love. "Our politics is so fucked up because virtually nobody understands this." Politics is about the Universe becoming ever more self-conscious, self-aware, and interconnected with itself, ultimately leading to infinite Love. Science Science is about manipulating reality. Science is about measuring things. Science is about understanding nature and all of its different phenomena. Science is about expanding our understanding of the physical universe. Science is about expanding our understanding of life and consciousness. Science is the Universe becoming conscious of itself as God and Love. Science is identical to spirituality. "Science is God exploring itself because it's curious about itself because it's in love with itself." … everything is done at different levels and tiers of holism -- filmmaking, game design, writing, sex, etc. How to develop holistic thinking? Ask higher quality questions. Episodes: The power of asking questions, Contemplation, 64 most fascinating questions. Psychedelics, awakening, God-realization, spiritual practice. Psychedelics are especially powerful at increasing your holism. Developing your intuition. Episode: How to harness your intuition Don't sell for one-dimensional, linear, reductionistic, dualistic answers. Keep questioning, keep wanting higher answers, this will push you to explore new perspectives and read. Study many perspectives. As many perspectives as possible. It'll expand your appreciation for the diversity of perspectives. Deconstruct the materialistic/mechanical paradigm. It's straight jacketing your holistic thinking ability. Study systems thinking. Episode: Intro to systems thinking. Start to consider externalities and collateral damage. Learn from Ken Wilber, Fritjof Capra, David Bohm, Einstein, Buckminster Fuller, etc. Step outside of your survival concerns The highest leverage to becoming holistic is first and foremost to solve your survival challenges permanently in a healthy way. Study your own self-biases Episodes: Self-bias, Developing introspection. Develop a long-time horizon Look for top-down, bottom-up, and sideways causal forces Eliminate judging and criticizing as much as possible Nothing will hurt your holistic thinking ability more than judging and criticizing. Adopt Ken Wilber's attitude of "everyone is right." In partial ways and in different degrees. Questions to help you think holistically: How are X and Y interconnected? What is the big picture here? What is the larger context of this? What is the ultimate point of all this? Why am I doing this at all? How is this a part of something larger? And what is that larger thing? How does this part serve the larger whole? How is this part of a duality? How will this boomerang? What is best for the health of the whole? How should the parts be rebalanced for the good of the whole? Which parts are out of balance leaching selfishly from the whole? How is this fragmented? How can it be unified and healed? How am I drawing the boundary of the system? How can I redraw the boundary to expand the boundary? How am I involved in the situation? How would God see this situation? God's thinking about a thing is unbiased, selfless, unattached, fearless, benevolent, all-loving, all-understanding, non-judgmental, self-accepting, and seeking exquisite balance for the good of all. This question is especially powerful because this is the power that created the entire universe. How can I better serve the greatest whole? Align your life with that question to ace life. Warnings: Studying the whole for personal gain is not holism, it's devilry. You can't separate holism from selflessness. Distinguish holism from Holism. holism = as the polar opposite of reductionism, creating a duality. Holism = incorporating reductionism into it and the unholistic people and things going on everywhere. Holism is so high that it even integrates evil. holism still thinks that there is a good and a bad, which isn't truly Holistic. Holism requires surrendering a lot. All the robbing, scamming, hurting, attacking, killing, enslaving, and exploiting is just an aspect of Yourself, the Universe. Different manifestations of Love at various densities. This would be true Holism. The ultimate form of Holism isn't thinking at all, but pure infinite Consciousness. Your state of consciousness determines how holistic you are more than anything that you think. It's still important, but there's trans-rationality. The changing of your state of consciousness is actually the highest lever you can pull to become more holistic. This is why psychedelics feel so holistic. In conclusion: A fragmented mind creates a fragmented world. To heal the world, we must unify our minds. The only question is: Do you want to heal the world? Or are you going to say 'not my problem?' Every problem has both holistic and unholistic solutions. Be careful not to get suckered into unholistic solutions, kicking the can down the road, multiplying the problem. "If you encounter a problem in your life that you feel is impossible to solve, most likely it's simply because your approach to that problem was not holistic enough." How is my thinking not sufficiently holistic enough to crack this problem? Division, fragmentation, and reductionism are not bad, it's only so in the relative sense. Nothing is bad, everything is Good. Highest Good = highest Holism. "He or she who is most holistic wins the game of life."

Thats th e sort of evil that is on this world yes, but saying that's God's plan is just a mistake in my view. In your worldview there is no free will and it is all God's will correct? Well this is not at all the God of Christianity, its the whole thing, the battle of the forces of darkness and the light, on a grand scale. Stop believing nonduality and that all is the will of God. I fully believe in judgement day and those wicked should get what they deserve. My hopes are that those who sin, but are not wicked will get God's mercy. And even the wicked, after rehab in hell.... I just hope! But yeah I would not assume everything that happens in our reality is God's will.

Well, that's the key to nonduality.

I'm on a place in my journey where I look back at my life i see I have spiralled into all sort of hedonistic practices, because I want to get max value out of life, I would often indulge myself and have fun. Lots of wise souls on here, why is hedonism not THE thing, if nonduality would say there is no problem with it, all good. Also, living here and now, for the moment, often for me implies hedonism. There are so many people who live for tomorrow, for next year, even some living for the afterlife (without guarantee of one) ! How do they live for something that is not now instead of hanging out with this girl and that girl now for example.. Or getting drunk/high now, instead of being sober now for a better future .. How and why would one deprive oneself of life's goodies when there is no guarantee of afterlife and this could be our only opportunity to have it. Just contemplating, wondering.. I value your responses!

@Mason Riggle The problem here is you are having an investigation over yourself and then project the same qualities and attributes to the entire universe. It is a common problem in nonduality - you just assume it is you, because you have no other point of reference .

Hey, I was hoping for your feedback regarding experience of cessation. I believe cessation is the only "true" experience of sheer nonduality (AKA literal escape from duality), though a "person" cannot subjectively actually experience the cessation in the sense that instead you seem to just skip forward in time. Everything before cessation toes only up to the edge of the cliff face. As long as there is an appearance of ANYTHING there is still localization and hence an appearance of duality, regardless of how whatever is left interprets it.

Cause and effect is a duality, it is two things. There is a cause + an effect. In nonduality there would only be "effect". Cause has no meaning without an effect: If something happens but nothing else happens as a result, it's not a cause. Something is only a cause when something else happens as a result of it. The most fundamental thing must just be "effect", arising without cause. Everything which arises from "effect" then makes the effect a cause...

Soz to hear. I'm in the UK so to hear of people being near bankrupted to receive medical care seems insane. Surely being able to actually live is the most basic human right? What sort of Darwinian nightmare is it where we just throw the sick to the wolves to die? It seems a simple step away from eugenics. Anyway. I mentioned you a few times in my thread about the impossibility of experiencing nonduality (due to your experience with cessation). I know this site doesn't notify for such things but I'd be much obliged if you could give your input on the matter. As I see it, cessation is the only direct "experience" of nonduality, though ironically it's a non-experience.

@gettoefl Nice. Thanks for adding that. Duality, Nonduality... It's all the same juice. Who's to tell the difference..?

yea but when you stub your toe, where does nonduality go. Is there really no one who stubbed their toe? Who goes to the toilet? Awareness does not go !

@tatsumaru I don't think this question or premise has anything to do with duality or nonduality whatsoever. If no conventional logic or answer is plausible for the question, then perhaps it is something crazy. Lol. Can existence be non-existent? That's impossible? But in nothingness there's no such thing as impossibility or logic... So it's just absolutely topsy turvy. All things all at once because there is neither logic nor impossibility. Consider all the wild things that could be when there are zero logical laws. Cause causes effect? That's logical. How about effect causing cause? How about nothing being something. Existence being non-existent. A possibility branch of a thing which loops back and creates the nothing. Non-existence REQUIRING existence. Maybe a person says paradoxes don't exist. Non-existence doesn't exist either so they're on the same plane and can gladly interact.

Yes absolutely nothing is neither finite nor infinite but no proof nor logic exist in the context of absolute nothingness. Logic is a sequence of statements and it implies time. My point is that we can't work from this relative context to prove infinity. The only nonduality is nonduality, there is no shortcut.

You can't have both nonduality and create a duality of you separate from an experience. But experience is not the duality you create about it. That duality exists purely for communication (I experienced this flower yesterday!), the experience itself is nondual and not separate from you.

@RMQualtrough YES, cessation and dissolution comes with a partial or total loss of memory, but nothingness doesn't, you're literally awake in the dream. Its not like being asleep or under anesthesia, you're fully there in eternity. That's the peace you're missing. You remember it also, there's no loss in memory. The key thing is you can't differentiate the waking stste from the dream state. That's the experience needed to realise that reality is not distinguishable from a dream. Which is 100% nonduality. No edging. I have no experience with psychedelics, so I couldn't tell you, I also don't advise taking psychedelics. Just know that cessation and dissolution is TOTALLY different from nothingness. There's more to "IT"

@Endangered-EGO Both, I've had a total dissolution of self when I smoked a breakthrough dose of DMT while tripping on 500ug of LSD. I recall afterwards, it occurred to me that no matter who gets there it won't matter anymore, because NO part of them is there. What is a lifelong Buddhist monk when everything Buddhist monk is gone? What is a junkie rapist when everything junkie rapist is gone? They are the same. Identical. Once "there" which ALL people will inevitably go to, everything and everyone is identical. I've had "cessation" I THINK (at least as far as we can tell, like general anaesthetic it's impossible to say if we just lost memory) from DMT also. On that occasion on the second pull doing the one hitter type method with the Glass Vaporgenie, the world exploded black, neon squiggles flew off into the black, then next thing I knew I was "coming to" some time after with no sense of anything between. Very odd. I have also been under general anaesthetic twice... It is possible the cessation is a loss of memory. That would be unproveable. But logically I think that is what nonduality really is. When I had dissolution experiences, it bothered me that there were visuals at all, because the fact there was a vision meant there was still observer and observed. Even if the subjective sense of separation vanished.

@Endangered-EGO I think the nondual experience we can have is Nirodhi Samapatti, hence I tagged @BipolarGrowth . I think cessation = total merger with the one. I think as long as there is observed, there is observer. Whether it's a blank white void or w.e. else that may be. That is an illusion of duality, but much much closer to apparent truth than we have ever been before. But still a perception of nonduality. I think one tiptoe step farther and you fall off that cliff. All localization ends and you just cease to be and come to some time later like Nirodhi Samapatti. Ironically the experience is actually non-experience... There is no experience of non-experience.

Ok, I get what you're saying. We are not the layers of the onion, whe are the dream/structure of the onion. If you think you can only edge nonduality but not enter it, then you haven't had a real full glimpse yet. Because once you are there there's just nothingness, the dream, divinity or oneness. You can be in 100% nonduality. I have had glimpses of it and I guarantee it. Ask enlightened people, they are going to tell you, you're all the way IT. Even the glimpses show you that it's no edge its IT. There no closeness or approximation to it. You can be full INTO it. It's absolute, I can't communicate it, it's absolute. Once you're close, merge with it, let it fill everything, surrender to it or whatever your spiritual practice tells you. I promise, ask enlightened people (I'm not I just had glimpses of a part of "IT")

@Moksha Indeed, otherwise I'd never have ended up here haha! But I think in total truth and reality, where we are venturing is basically onto the cliff edge. We are toeing the line but we never go over it. The user @BipolarGrowth has spoke of cessation experiences. I think that is what's over the cliff edge. ALL localization ceases, so then there is only nothing (actually everything, but that can't be experienced in nonduality because there is no observed to allow for observing).

We are there it's the ground. Experience always appears as duality. In deep mystical states you might be nothingness in a white void. There is experience of white, and hence something observing white. Still an appearance of duality even though the boundary of self is subjectively gone and the white is "you". Cessation is nonduality. That is where we reside always.

You never left nonduality. "Experience" only appears as duality so long as you insist on there being "experience". You don't need to enter general anesthetic or deep sleep or whatever. Here it is.