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Of course we are splitting hairs here. The basics of nonduality and consciousness are all the same. There's just degrees of holism to it. Which is why these kinds of nondual debates are a waste of time. The only practical point is: go for Infinite Consciousness. Nothing else matters. Don't stop until you understand EVERYTHING.

But if this nonduality stuff is true, doesn't it mean that if you read a "external" book, you are actually just reading yourself and discovering more of yourself? All happening internally, inside yourself, directly. So then it wouldn't matter whether you do it internally or "externally". The thing you first label as indirect (reading a book), could cause something which you label as direct.

Maybe check out Loch Kelly's work. He has a very down to earth style and emphasizes the practical approach of nonduality instead of endlessly theorizing it.

If you're looking for a teaching, look elsewhere. Nonduality meetings are basically just fun, not really effective for anything, except perhaps allowing some beliefs about enlightenment to fall away.

Michael Taft brilliantly summarized this whole radical neo-advaita vs effortful approach situation in this article: https://deconstructingyourself.com/nonduality-and-mindfulness.html

They advocate self inquiry. So does Rupert Spira. And they say you’re already enlightened but the good ones say it remains for you to realize that. They provide teachings. The nonduality speakers like Jim Newman merely provide the message, for no reason. They do not provide teachings. Those are the main distinctions I see. I don’t prefer one or the other really. The only Neo teachers I really don’t like (can’t think of any off the top of my head) are probably recent students of Neo who think they’re at the end of the path but really aren’t and then they preach that everyone’s already enlightened and you not only can, but should, stop meditating. “The message” points to the non-conceptual, energetic collapse of the duality between bondage and liberation.

Papaji, Mooji, and many followers of Ramana Maharshi. They generally advocate self inquiry and say there's nothing to do to be enlightened because you already are enlightened. Versus nonduality or the message which is not a teaching, and says nothing, but points out the reality that there's no one to become enlightened.

@The0Self What you call contemporary nonduality is what I consider Neo-advaita. They all basically tell you there's nothing to do. Which pretty much guarantees you will never realize God.

I see a big distinction between Neo-Advaita and this -- Jim Newman, Tony Parsons, Andreas Muller, Anna Brown, Andrea Reflects, Kenneth Madden, perhaps more... Lisa Cairns, etc -- aka contemporary nonduality (I've heard it called). Neo-Advaita says you're already enlightened and there's nothing to do, which is hopelessly taken on as a belief -- I wouldn't call it nonduality. This contemporary nonduality consists of a message being spoken that points to nothing; the absolute -- they rarely say there's nothing to do... and even if they seem like they do, whenever pressed, they always make it very clear there's no one to do that anyway, so who is giving up the search? It's made very clear that thinking or knowing you are enlightened already is just a game the individual would play to avoid liberation. In Neo-Advaita, you can supposedly know (or believe) you're enlightened. In contemporary nonduality, you can't -- because unlike Neo-Advaita, it does point to liberation, which is beyond mere belief.

The integration of light and darkness inside we have to do. When thoughts arise about shame and sin and the dark "entity" is waiting to have it's feast is also what we call (ego dissolution or ego death). If we cling to much at what we know about reality, this kind of happenings could happen and all sorts of inside realities and fears, traumas, memory etc. From a metaphorical perspective, the Ego has to be sacrificied and renewed with the internal fire we have. So, on a brink of dispair like Ego dissolve, wich is no joke, to let go is to embrace the inner drive, or call it fury if you wish. In a dream picture it will apear as Satan or Lucifer. We must first deconstruct what those entities are. Satan has to be seen in new light. Because christianity lied in the first place about Satan or Lucifer. Let's remember that "the serpent" and "saviour" is the same principle. Christ is the metaphor of the Ego, sacrificing itself for the whole and be reborn. Take this like something we have to do at a personal level. Let the old go to be sacrified for the interior self and be reborn in a new paradigm. When the big sacrifice comes, that of the Ego, is normal at first, the body and mind will freak out similar to waiting real death. Getting in touch with the reality inside of what Satan or Lucifer represents. From a standpoint of no christian dogma, they represent the truth. They represent the movement inside. Jesus Christ said: to those who will be successful in my endeavors, i will give them Lucifer, the morning star. So, Lucifer, Satan, Shiva, Christ, are only names during history of that wich is dormant in the human body, or left for dead. Is where we threw our not desired emotions or thoughts,etc. Firstly, revise your beliefs about Satan, and let religious dogma go away. In the true words Lucifer represents the light and the principle of Air. Satan represents movement and the principle of Fire. Gabriel represents freedom of speech and the principle of Space/Akasha/Sound/Knowledge Duality is making people see angels and demons. From a nonduality perspective they are Daemons or facets of the subconscious mind. In western tradition we have 72 demons and 72 angels, so 144 Daemons.or "Gods". Duality is being stuck in the perspective only that of the Ego and mind. Because of society programming. So, we have to reconsider relearning everything we think we know, and distrust any dogma, this is why we have the breath, to not drop into insanity. And the embrace of all those dark feelings inside and stop judging. Now, entities are real from another perspective. If is too much trauma doing the inner work, then calling upon Christ or Shiva or Lucifer, could help greatly.

Nonduality.

And I think he's from India, he looks like it. He prays at work, I think several times. He takes his shoes off and goes on his knees on a "carpet", and then does the classic thing with bowing down with face towards the ground and arms stretched out forward. So.. what would happen if I would tell him that I like advaita vedanta? I think advaita vedanta is a branch of hinduism, but advaita vedanta is nonduality. Would he think that believing in advaita vedanta is a sin or something? Would it make him hate me? Or the opposite? Maybe he would like it and get positively surprised that I like advaita vedanta? I like religious people. He likes me and I like him so we could maybe have something in common with this hindu stuff. It's extremely rare that a swedish guy isn't a 100% materialist so he would for sure get surprised if he would know that I'm kinda spiritual. Maybe I even could mention that I like to watch Swami Sarvapriyananda on YouTube. But I don't know. @Preety_India

And by the way... If someone were to tell you, for instance, “stop trying to get anywhere,” then they are coming from a place of mere conceptual understanding (thus, misunderstanding) of nonduality. As there’s no you to do that either.

Nonduality & Meditations

Which video series of Leo's will give me a deeper understanding of nonduality? Would it be the 'Understanding duality' series? Also anyone got any good book recommendations for better understanding?

My user name says it all. I was born in '65, the last year for Baby Boomers. And I'm late to the party as usual. I've heard Leo say understanding a lot of these concepts could take years or decades, but I don't think I have decades. I’m 56 with health problems. I have changed a lot over the years, so maybe it counts. Had a major life change (quit a good state job due to fallout from Jan. 6. Escaped with conscience intact, but now what? Still unemployed in a pandemic and recession. Luckily my wife is holding us down, but I need a purpose or at least a job. Took mushrooms to help with depression. They helped and even spurred a lot of creativity. I was starting a blog and a YouTube channel. But I was on the wrong track with both. The last trip blew me out of the water. It was stronger than the others and really beautiful. But now I'm kind of adrift. It actually left me LESS motivated than the previous ones. I thought, I really don't know anything after all, do I? I have to take some things seriously that I used to scoff at. I was an atheist who used to be a Baptist. I thought I had that one nailed down, but now I'm not sure. Maybe it was all in my head, but I could swear I communicated with something that loved me. If it was God it wasn’t Yahweh, but it didn’t feel like I was talking to myself. I interpreted it as the earth. But I'm not sure. One thing I am sure of now is that the ego is not me. I was able to let it sleep and give in and it was a blessing. I had a lot of insights. A lot of it was about processing grief. For myself -- not afraid of death now -- for mankind and for nature. I decided I need to know more about what is true. I figured a path would turn up, but so far it hasn't. I've talked to some psychonauts and new agers. Not sure how much to accept. Some of their claims are hard to swallow. I'm willing to entertain a lot of new ideas, but I have to keep some skepticism. I don't trust people that easily any more - least of all me. Discovered Leo's videos at just the right moment. The one about how reality is a mass hallucination hooked me. I'm also fascinated by spiral dynamics. I've watched quite a bit of his content and a lot of it has been eye opening. There was a time when I would have dismissed it out of hand. There are some concepts, like absolute truth, being God, nonduality, etc., that I don't know if I can buy, but maybe I just don't get it. Benefit of the doubt. I'm a creative person, but I never really found my niche - or rather I thought I did, but it's now all but extinct. I was a reporter and editor for small town newspapers for 20 years. I thought it was my purpose in life. I loved it until I didn't. I was lucky to escape without becoming homeless. Did I waste my life or is there something I’m still supposed to do that only I can do? I want to move forward and find some kind of outlet, but I feel stuck. I was inspired after the big shroom trip. We were in that little window before Delta showed up. I did a few meetups, tried to make some friends, get a circle going, but it kind of fizzled and now here I am again, stuck inside and dealing with health issues. Sciatica and high blood pressure being the main ones. I'd love to trip again and see if I can get some guidance that way, but till I get the BP under control that's out. Not sure where I’m going with this, just figured this is a group of people I can talk to about things everyone else thinks are crazy. Maybe y'all can help me figure myself out.

And psychedelics put you in DP/DR or right away into the nothingness without residual separation? Isn't there spiritual practice needed to realise nonduality before going into dissociative states? I'm not sure about you, but when I had DP/DR, I didn't have separation, because thoughts were as empty as the rest of reality. The suffering was ego death, fighting the change of perception that's occurring. DP/DR also wasn't that much suffering, the suffering came months/years after not experiencing any dissociations anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zIKQCwDXsA

That's simply a lack of nuance on your part. You and Adeptus are committing the classic pre/trans fallacy and then getting outraged at me over it. I have never claimed to be a messiah in some delusional pre-rational way people like Adetpus take that to mean. Does God speak through me? Of course! All my deepest insights come from God. Do I teach people how to awaken? Of course! In that sense you could say I am guru or a messiah, but you and Adeptus have no clue what this actually means. You take it as some narcisstic fundamentalist thing, but it isn't that. Anyone can become a guru or a messiah simply by awakening and having a calling to awaken others. If you don't carefully study this work, then it may seem that way to you. Yes, precisely because people like you and Adeptus get confused. The video was not about me, it was to help clear up confusion which naturally rises in this work. No, I have always spoke out and warned against cult behavior and ideology. This has been the core of my work from day 1. Actually I take criticism and feedback all the time. But not when it comes from trolls who are way out of their element. Before you troll me, first demonstrate a solid understanding of spirituality, nonduality, epistemology, metaphysics, and my work. I teach extremely advanced things which require nuance and tons of personal contemplation and direct experience to understand. My teachings are not some dumb right wing video that you just casually troll. It will take you 10 years of deep study to render a serious criticsim of me. Not that you couldn't. But you're so far from that. This may shock you, but I am a busy guy and I have better things to do than to defend my work against ignorant people. If I was in that business it would be a full time job. If you cannot fathom my work then that's not my problem. Many people will misinterpret my work because that is simply the nature of the ego mind.

No, this is actually going to shock you. I believe that God is everything in the universe, including me and you, and I've been espousing this since my teens (over 20 years). I also believe in nonduality, and have extensive meditation and psychedelic experience... not what you was wanting to read... right?

@mandyjw Nonduality into everything. Well porns are porns. They are exactly that.

I have watched thousands of YouTube videos about nonduality, read many books, and been a member in this forum for many years, so I know all the theory about it, for example the thing that "trying to achieve it is running from it." But it doesn't help. I don't get enlightened when I stop trying to achieve it. There has been periods when I haven't been trying to achieve it. I've heard "you enjoy suffering" a billion times as well. That doesn't help either. So I'm somehow supposed to stop enjoying suffering? When my experience tells me that I'm not enjoying suffering? I'm not buying it. You guys are only doing mental gymnastics all the time, creating concepts and beliefs.

I can see how thinking isn't that much of a thing. I can experience voices, images or even imagined sensations but the "thought" itself is never there without an associated experience. Most of my thoughts are vocal, it's like I'm dreaming a voice talking to me (that I label mine). I never interact with the thought but only with the voice that is being dreamed of. One could say those things are just the "labelling of experiences" and the labelling itself is thought. Labelling here is just a synonym for duality. Like if I label the experience of a voice as a thought saying me things, is the labelling itself another experience? Am I experiencing the labelling of an experience through another experience, or is there just no actual labelling? Are dualities experienced? Or are they just "not"? The answer sounds obvious, especially given the name Nonduality. But I long thought that dualities are experienced as part of consciousness (experience of thought). In actuality I don't experience the dualities themselves, but voices and images that I later attribute to thought. I can see how there might be no thinking. But it will always appear as if I'm thinking, either from neuroimagery or by looking at the actions my body does. The neuroimagery of someone in a total state of flow playing basketball would probably reveal brain activity about basketball and about motor skills. But perhaps brain activity is different from thinking.

From corresponding a bit with Adeptus, he might not even misunderstand nonduality entirely, he mainly just thinks Leo was being a bit over confident and half baked with his claims of healing abilities like a year ago or something — though I do still think Adeptus is misunderstanding that, because I don’t remember anything particularly crazy, and the way Adeptus acts leads me to believe he has a bit more of a problem with Leo than just that.

No, it's the acceptance of the causes of suffering (belief in them) that is truly not true acceptance at all, that is the suffering. Some people are so disgusted they won't hear them (I remember feeling this way about Eckhart Tolle when I was 19) and others try to exploit the understanding which only results in suffering. We all do, really in some way, that's how we learn. I discovered them around the same time my Grandmother died and I was going through a really challenging period in my life. She essentially teaches how to emotionally embody nonduality. Her key insight for losing someone you love is, "look for the person you lost where they are not where they are not" and a few other insights hit me like lightning at that time. I also was able to connect with the intuition I'd always had but demonized for so long. The winter I discovered her, my kitchen sink drain clogged, and since my Grandmother was dying and no one could get care for he my entire family was helping and I was isolated with no help with my toddler and autistic son. My dog was dying and occasionally making massive messes in the house. I hired a plumber, and had a few other people try to fix the sink drain. No one could. My life was a mess, a literal freaking mess. Having a kitchen sink drain is really important. I tried to will it into being using law of attraction. I tired so hard to focus my head hurt. Nope. My life was such a disaster, but something really bright, transcending all that was calling me in a much clearer, deeper way than ever. That winter/early Spring I had an awakening, and several mystical experiences starting with the night my Grandmother died and connecting with her in such a profound way. It was like it all magically worked its way out and through and around the chaos of my life. Still, however, the kitchen sink drain was clogged. I literally got everything but the kitchen sink. So many psychological blockages and beliefs came loose and came crashing down all around me. The world feels like a truly magical, enchanted place, and I know and feel in my heart that I'm not separate from that. Synchronicity and insights keep sweeping me off my feet. Spring comes, the drain is clearly not frozen and I hire someone to dig up the entire length of plumbing in the back yard with an excavator and fix it. That morning I listen to a song with the lyrics "lightning in a bottle". They dig up an antique glass jar with "Lightning" printed on it. I ask him to dig my dog a grave under the apple tree in the back yard, because I've decided finally to have him put to sleep later that week. He does, they leave. I finally have a kitchen sink that works, weeks, months later. The next morning my dog dies peacefully on his own, early before the kids can wake up and find him, as if he'd planned it that way the entire time for my convenience. Law of Attraction is the focusing on what you DO want, focusing on what you do have and finding the feeling place of fulfillment and awe in it, without denying bigger dreams, without believing so much in time and limitations and "what is"... that is really the non resistant state that we all came here for. Love feels like love, and it is unconditional. It's essentially all about not settling (believing) anything less than that.

I think it’s a matter of these people just not being very familiar with him. Bentinho is highly awakened and authentic it seems. Very high level techniques. Like a young Rupert Spira that actually lets his personality show and is concerned less with nonduality and more with manifesting your true nature through intuition and emotional guidance. Rather reminds me of Nahm / Phil / Actuality of Being Apparently Bentinho was instrumental in Frank Yang’s path.