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The disagreement mainly stems from different recognition of the nature of awakening. It is true that there is a stage of development where one can reach a permanent absolute being/understanding/consciousness of the nature of existence/infinity/God. Whether through psychedelic or traditional means. Which is what most refer to as awakening or enlightenment or God-realization. It is a realization that removes all doubts about what you are, what existence is, and why everything is the way it is. Most who reach this stage will likely be permanently changed, the truth will become an everpresent part of how they live, despite ego coming back in different degrees. (It is impossible to be absolutely egoless while you are a conscious human, no matter how awakened you are, as a conscious human you will have degrees of ego in order to exist) This stage of development is what most religious and spiritual teacher points to, despite the different methods, definition, or explanation. And because it is so profound and absolute, it can feel like the final awakening, and it makes sense, since most people's whole reasoning behind their spiritual seeking is to reach these answers. They are content with this level of understanding for it is more than enough to find meaning in their human existence. They are looking at awakening from the perspective of a human, and see awakening as solely something that serves their human existence. However, if you look at awakening from God's perspective. To God, awakening is not limited to anything. God can awaken to itself in infinite ways and infinite degrees. In God's perspective, all of existence is "it" awakening to itself in infinite ways and infinite degrees. The first stage of absolute awakening is like being handed the key to God's perspective. Some will experience it and feel satisfied with it from their human perspective and live on, and that is totally fine. While others might use the perspective to experience/explore existence from the perspective of God. Thus allowing them to experience awakening, as God, to itself, in infinite ways and degrees. And that is fine too, since awakening is love, and through the different degrees of awakening one can experience higher and higher degrees of infinite/love from their human perspective. The nature of awakening is love no matter how high the degree or the difference in methods. Everyone will choose through their/God's free will what degree of awakening they wish to experience.

In general, do you think it's better to do spiritual practice in a room filled with exhaust and maggots eating at your eyeballs while somebody is giving you intravenous injections of PCP and alcohol, or would you prefer a more healthy environment? Sure, you can expose yourself to stressors in a controlled way as a part of your spiritual practice, but the key there is "controlled". When something is outside your control and you can't change it and it affects your health, that is not good for spiritual practice. "Social stuff" is to trivialize it. It's a social safety net, a buffer for stressors, mental health support and care, and a source of knowledge and wisdom from people who know more than you (and preferably an old tradition tested by time). This particular point is very personal to me. The lack of a social safety net around me when I first awakened is the greatest injustice I've experienced as a human. I'll acknowledge like I did earlier that some lineages of particularly Christianity was burdened by some theological shifts around 400 BC (but again, this not endemic to religion in general). But other than that, the difference between New Age faith and Christian faith is that you'll be promised heaven on Earth instead of heaven in the afterlife, and in both cases, you have to indeed take it on faith until you're on the other side, and you have to trust some external example outside yourself as a motivator (your guru, your saint, your savior). What that looks like in practice is identical for both cases: it's the same levels of dogmatism, confusion, self-deception. The difference is that the New Ager does it mostly alone while fearing for their sanity and while probably getting exploited by some eccentric figure on the fringes of society.

Gotama didn't invent Buddhism. He simply put forth and communicated his realizations from direct experience. His followers invented that religion by or through their actions -- believing in a guy's communication, putting it down on paper, holding the books as "sacred", performing rituals, making up a cosmology around it, adding and projecting stuff, etc. That, carried out for a long period of time, created what we call Buddhism. In any case, what awakened individuals like these had were insights, breakthroughs and enlightenments, not mere ideas. The absolute is not a matter of jumping to conclusions or of being convinced. Even if it is a superficial glimpse, it is absolute and self-validating. Care should be taken not to fool oneself with stories about it, though. What if the truth happens to be useless and to have no value? As a matter of fact, what's true must exist prior to value, since the latter is relative and is constructed by you. Saying that the absolute is the highest value doesn't sound right to me. What do you mean? What's value? Higher than what? Who's to say? Valuable to whom? It is offered as a possibility to be considered for oneself. Otherwise, what are you doing? If a religion says so, then you're supposed to accept it on blind faith. When the purpose is realizing what's real, you'd be invited to freely question anything.

My view on your Realizations 1. This is false. Saying you are more awake than others does not need to be egoic, but can simply be true. You may reach a point where you realize that you are the most conscious being in existence. When, and if you realize this, then if you say it's the case then it would be true. Others though, cannot verify this for you. Which is challenging. 2. Yes, taking offence at someone saying they are more awake than you, is ego. Even here I foresee come caviats 3. Sure. I actually think the more awake you become, maybe the more boundaries dissolve, but at the the say time more high quality distinctions are made. I am not convinced it's purely that awakening or enlightenment is to dissolve boundaries. I think that is more buddhist framing. Thinking, knowing making high quality distinctions are also a part of becoming more awake. At least, in some aspects of the awakening process, as a human being. To learn to think, be wise, intelligent, use wise discernment etc are to me, signs of a deeply awakened and wise person. At the highest levels of my own awakenings, and I am not saying I am awake... It's ineffable how One, it all is. But, each awakening I've had has lead me to making higher and higher quality distinctions within the oneness as a human. 4. Sure 5. True 6. Maybe. This is assuming that all experiences are equal, symmetrical in value to understanding God and awakening. I would say that is false. There are higher states of knowing that simply aren't accessible to most people, and buddhists especially so... They just like to imagine that all states are an equal playing field. This is false. 7. Buddhist Framing. This framing is also in some Hindu and other types of spiritual framing. I am not sure there is a purpose of life. But, I do myself create the meaning that the purpose of my life personally, is to live masterfully and be deeply loving and contribute to the world. But, this is a meaning I have created. For me, life is a love simulator. I am choosing to create for myself the most powerful framing I can. Which, does include aspects of this buddhist framing but, transcends it.

Have any of you guys awakened to lottery numbers? I'd be very curious if you want to PM and chat hit me up.

"...if you think they are on the wrong path!" Noooooo. Everybody has a unique path. There is no wrong path. If you want to force your truth on your friends, you're likely going to lose friends. I've seen people awakened by the silliest of practices. I've been friends with flat earther's and hollow earthers. I may not agree with their particular view, but I respect their right as Creators to Create the Reality they wish to live in. When my opinion is asked, I give it, but I will not impose Truth on another. Some people don't want to know and that is to be respected. I Am Truthful of my opinion of things always, but at best I will drop hints here and there so that they can find out for themselves. There is no use in trying to force enlightenment or force a worldview; It simply does not work, only leads to arguments. You have to offer it as food for thought. My number one rule in dealing with other Creator Gods is 1. Respect Free Will. Always.

If Leo was truly awake he could hack God’s database and look into his followers brains and see who is awakened and who not.

Be careful of false prophets. @axiomis stuck in neo advaita and, @Flyboy is young and not yet awakened. I know everyone on this forum and I also know their levels of advancement.

A.) No person is enlightened/awakened, Consciousness is conscious, God is God, a person is within Consciousness/God. (You, ultimate you, are not a person) B.) The concept of a person being enlightened or awake IS a concept, you ARE fooling yourselves. I don't know if this is exactly what Leo is saying, but what he's saying is actually TRUE, you just have to remove the human element of Leo that YOU are conceiving. Leo the person is not awake, I think he is taking it upon himself to 'speak on God's behalf', probably drug induced so it's coming out as ego, or a test.

There are infinite degrees to "Awakening". All possible awakening that can or can't exist, exists. God's imagination is unlimited and can create any form of conceptual or actual Awakening possible. It can imagine a so call absolute awakening from some human perspective, but it can also imagine infinite ways to go beyond that awakening. Because it's all infinite, and because you can only recall your direct experience of infinity when you are in your human perspective (which is a finite recollection of the experience of the infinite) it is possible for you as a human to continuously experience/remember higher and higher degrees of infinity compared to the amount you had remembered/experienced prior. But as God, all possible awakening and existence are all happening beyond time in infinite ways. You as God can experience all the infinite possibilities of "Spiritual Awakening" that existence can possibly experience and come back as a human retaining only an infinitely small portion of the whole of that experience. You can even consciously know how many infinite lifetimes, existence, or dimensions you've experienced, but you will likely only be able to recall, with detail, an infinite fraction of the whole once you are back to the human perspective. Because otherwise the sheer amount of information will melt your human brain. However, since you are God, you can remove, or at least lessen that limitation if you wish, the amount of infinity you can retain can change through God's will, and if you have a deep desire to continue exploring/experiencing higher degrees of Awakening or infinity, then you shall create that in your direct experience. There is always more, or higher, or beyond a certain awakening to be had because God is infinite, it can just keep creating infinite possibilities to entertain itself. You might continue to experience higher and higher infinity for infinite times/lifetimes/existence until you reach the extreme of the infinite of infinite of infinite... You might then go back to the most limiting perspective of a little human, and in that contrast, you can experience the infinite beauty of yourself. The degree and love you have for yourself that you can create and experience all of yourself. (In human language this experience seems linear in time, but to God, it's all happening outside of time, or in infinite time) You can experience being the "organ" of a higher dimensional being but within yourself containing an infinite universe that contains endless lifeforms and beings, and then zoom into the hair of one of the infinite alien beings, and find that within the hair it contains another infinite existence in a completely different dimension, and so on. You might even remember the non-human sensation of being these higher dimensional beings, or the vibration/language that are non-human. Even though just a finite recollection of the actual. This is very hard to communicate through human language since it's infinitely paradoxical/strange-loopy. Degrees of infinity can only be measured in one's direct experience to their prior direct experiences. Because it's not possible to mathematically measure infinity, or reduce it to human concepts. And the infinite variety of infinite consciousness makes any comparison obsolete. Only you can, through your direct experience, "know" in human terms how awakened you are. And depends on how much of the infinite you can retain as a human, the human perspective can feel so infinitely small and limiting. Most human concepts of awakening refer to the understanding/being of the infinite/God, which is true, but beyond that awakening exists infinite more awakenings. Most humans are satisfied with the first because compared to their human experience, just an infinite fraction of God is enough for them to stop seeking. But some people are more curious than others, so they can continue to explore infinite consciousness and discover new forms of conscious experiences.

Why do you use the word "alien"? Do you want to express that it's very different to human intelligence or what? Two years ago you thought you were very awakened but you didn't know anything about this alien intelligence right? Anyway, I am clear about my objective with this work. always go deeper, break all barriers. I don't think there is an end, just keep going deeper and deeper.

I agree that the proof is in the spiritual pudding. Many people claim to have transformative realizations, but if they still suffer how are these realizations different from the manipulations of the egoic mind? The journey is not only about understanding what you are not, but about directly realizing what you are, and thereby dissolving the personal attachments that cause you to suffer. The vast majority of content on this forum is about proclaiming profound insights, rather than doing the spiritual work of surrendering to the reality of yourself. If you still suffer, you have not yet fully realized or surrendered. When I first woke up, I went through quite a long period of time where my suffering was all but gone. I naïvely assumed that this awakened state was permanent, when in reality it was not. To the contrary, it was followed by an even darker period of suffering than I was in before I awakened. I now realize why this deeper suffering was necessary, and am grateful for what it taught me. Again, I find myself no longer suffering, but it is a deeper realization than before. It's like the first awakening was the birth of an infant that was cradled until it was ready to learn to walk. Love set me on my own feet, and I felt utterly abandoned until I finally found my way to the other side. Is the suffering permanently gone? I suppose it again depends on how well I have learned its lessons.

Maybe what I say is partialistic, but any belief can become a block, unconsciousness. Leo said an example that somebody can say to himself that "I don't know, everything is realtive while I eat unhealthy food" . Or when somebody want to impress others by talking only in scientifical style, but he comform to this pattern and then he can't speak in other way. So doesn't matter if he awakened that there are infinite number of all-powerful god, he can turn it into a lower and lower belief, until it become lower belief than the other beliefs, and that we call comforted to that pattern, block.

Yeah It's kind of depressing how little spirituality affects political views. Zen masters openly supported japanese imperialism and Buddhists perpetrated genocide in Myanmar. Really put me off Buddhism and zen. were those people awake? and is it possible for awakened people to support fascism and genocide and other devilry?

@Breakingthewall Don't think for one second there not other hardcore psychonauts who have gone as deep or deeper than Leo. I have met loads, some do things with psychedelics you wouldnt dare. But one thing I have noticed with all of them is they loose sense of reality in this world as a human, it's hardly something you would want to replicate. At the end of the day some of the stuff he is saying should raise alarm bells. "I am the most awakened person in the whole of humanity" when in reality I take a shit load of psychedelics. What is so special in that? it's hardly an achievement is it? granted there are intense as hell but anyone can do it and you can easily encourage people to pursue awakening through psychedelics without being arrogant and mean about it, if anything that will just put people off and now with some of the posts recently people are going to see this as a cult with a narcissistic leader, he is fucking up and I hope he returns to normal soon

The more I watch Leo, the more I realise that he hasn't really done this kind of shadow work. It reflects in his behaviours, his teachings and this community. Dude would really benefit from taking a break from psychedelics and doing shadow work but I doubt he would do that. The ironic thing is it would make him even more awakened if he did it.

Curt will never be awakened. Sorry but that dude is mentally limited.

Yes precisely, because physicality is created by the mind. Well, it is precisely what @Breakingthewall said, as God - when you imagine a physical barrier, (or "other") it manifests. When you shift your mind to be lucid that it was something you dreamed up, then that is the state of consciousness you are in. It is a great responsiblity to wake up, because you essentially have beaten the game. You are now the developer of the game, and thus, you can never have the feeling of not knowing its a game again, unless you fool yourself. So the awakened being begins the quest of fooling himself, over and over, until his time is done. And that's all there is to it.

In the detractors defense, what they're calling narcissistic abuse, the "you all are idiots, no one is as awakened as me, ......" that stuff does communicate "believe what I say".

Hello all, this is serving as a sequel to my previous post. As a refresher, I took 6g of mushrooms, had an awakening experience, and found the whole thing very depressing. I was pretty sure I was crazy. After a few weeks however I have come to realize some more positive aspects of the trip. First, with time I have become more comfortable with my insights. I have heard that many people "forget" the insights after an awakening experience, but this has not been the case for me. Maybe since I didn't have such a fun time initially it has been easier for me to focus on the truth rather than the feeling of awakening. Who knows? (Actually I'm sure a lot of you know, please tell me what you think I would love to hear it). Second, I finally think I have some idea of what it means to raise my consciousness. I think this because, while thinking about life out loud to some friends who would listen, I found myself saying the following phrases: "Humanity can be thought of a single organism that exists across time and space. Specifically it is a self perpetuating, organized, intelligent mass of information that exists in the gene pool and manifests itself as individual human beings." "When we structure our government and think about new economic policies, we need to take in all of reality into account. Any utopian thinker is ignoring some part of reality. The goal is to come up with a system that 1. Works 2. Plans for all the different types of people as much as possible 3. leads to at least a somewhat enjoyable existence for most people. We have problems like poverty/homelessness/inequality because we are not admitting to ourselves that not everyone is the same and we are not taking reality into account" "Actually, we can think of all of life on earth, the entire ecosystem, as a single organism. This is because it's all interdependent, and even though on a small scale organisms will compete with and kill other organisms, the ultimate outcome is that life prevails and continually adapts to the environment." I should make clear that I independently came to these conclusions by merely contemplating what I saw in my environment and studying different societies outside of my own. After saying these things, I was vaguely reminded of spiral dynamics stage Yellow and Turquoise. I looked up some information and I was blown away as it seemed like someone had directly quoted me and written it under the Yellow and Turquoise categories. It was only then that I was really able to accept the spiral dynamics model, and I understood the actual benefit of spirituality. Before, I almost perfectly fit into stage orange, and later stage green categories while not really being able to understand the later stages and thinking that they were merely different, less good ways of thinking than the one I was at then. Now though, I have seen the world in a whole new way that only really made sense after I didn't focus on myself so much and saw the world for what it really was. If I had to put it into words, raising my consciousness was kind of like turning up the field of view slider in a video game. It allowed me to see the utterly incomprehensible, ruthlessly pragmatic, hopelessly complex process of life happening around me for what it was. All of this happened after my big trip, and I don't know if it's something to do with awakening or if it's the mushrooms that have given me the the ability to think this way, but I somehow feel like the awakening and higher-order thinking are connected because both involve admitting truth to yourself and appreciating the whole world, not just one part of it. Right now I am a university student studying Physics and Mathematics. My dream as of late has been to become a physicist just in case I can be one of those few throughout history that is actually worth their skin and comes up with something really valuable rather than just turning the proverbial crank of the scientific method, doing the same thing over and over and pretending like it is going to result in something new. This still seems like the best option to me, but I have also become very interested in sociology, economics, and politics because of my newfound perspective on the world. I am an intellectual at heart, I love playing with ideas. The trouble is I'm a mediocre student at a mediocre university right now so IDK if I will be able to make a career out of it, but I'm going to give it my best shot until the day I can say I have succeeded or completely failed. In the case of failure, I will simply be an armature intellectual! Thank you for reading. I'm excited to hear any thoughts!

Do you use awakened, enlightened and self-realized as different words for the same thing. To me they mean different things. Awakened and self-realized is not yet enlightened. So awakened/self-realized still experience suffering. Pain does not equal suffering though. You can feel shitty without creating a suffering-story about it.

@Someone here Yeah I agree that pain doesn't equal suffering. Pain is feeling sensations and suffering is thought. Awakening (imo) isn't as black and white as being awake or not. There are degrees of awakeness and with that degrees of suffering that one identifies with. Depending what life your living there might be different levels of suffering. Compare an awake being living in a cave with someone like Jesus who was highly engaged in his community and also tried to change the power structures of society and being nail to the cross for it. He probably did experience suffering to a very high degree but does that mean he was less awakened than Ramana? I don't know. It's hard to say because they lived such different lives that it's hard to compare the two. What I can say is that everyone will have a choice to make after enlightenment. Whether to isolate themselves (to various degrees) to connect to source and go further onto the continuum or engage in society and embrace the love aspect of awakening.

@Someone here The ending of suffering isn’t the only goal or point of enlightenment. That’s a partial, limited framing probably resulted from a thin study of Buddhism. Being more conscious, having awakenings, etc will, if done properly lower suffering, generally. But it’s not the only goal. Literally everyone is capable of suffering. Though, enlightened people likely suffer less. The goal of enlightenment is to know yourself as God. But, that being said the word enlightenment is used by different schools and can point to different things. Osho suffered, Leo suffers, jesus suffered in the cross… In my development I do work to limit suffering, and maximize feeling good. My awakenings generally feel very good. There is no suffering when very awake. But, it’s only part of the game. Awakening leads to truth. But, if an awakened one has cancer he will likely suffer.

Behold! The lovely face of "Christ" (idk what other word to use for pointing). Randomly bumped into this, thought I'd share it as it's another good example of what the result of "ego dissolution", integration and awakened self can look like for those wanting to go farther. You can see the "light" and "innocence", joy and love shining through .

It's extremely difficult to understand leo. I thought the same than flyboy said many times. He shows little patience with others, he has very little empathy, he repeats that he is the only awake person in the world, which makes many think he is crazy, he says incomprehensible things like that he wants to transform into a alien in front of the cameras, he is intimidating when he interacts with others, he likes to go to clubs to pick up girls, all that. but the reality is that leo has discovered the true awakening. Leo understands reality better than anyone. Sounds extremely stupid, but Leo is more awakened than Buda and Ramana maharshi ?. It's true, not a joke. That being said, don't believe Leo, but he can serve as inspiration and guidance.