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I was noticing how, when I am in a trip, I am telling myself - oh this is the loss of self, non-dual part. But yet - I am believing, intuiting, and imagining that to be the case. I tell myself "this is me losing myself, I am not this, not this, not this, I am no where, the universe is imagined, if I am the universe, I am imagining myself." We feel like, oh this is what I am thinking, this is what I am telling myself I am seeing, so it must be the case. It in a way seems just as delusional as say a religious person being headstrong in the man in the clouds as "I have experienced God/Jesus so it must be the case." Similarly, one can say - "I have experienced nonduality so it must be the case." Both are believing what they think to be describing reality. The non-dual one logically makes more sense as one can see, I am not separate from reality but rather am reality and part of it and everything makes up reality so it is all non-dual. Christianity one is a harder buy as there is the counter-argument that it was all made up by people. Well, non-duality one can say, even that concept was made up by people too. I guess that is why "the truth" is not any idea or cannot be spoken as the truth is just what is, the truth is itself, rather than a concept as non-duality and Christianity are. But even saying something as "the truth" is a concept as well... It is just weird how we have the non-dual experience and the thoughts that come to us or visuals that we see - that we take them so seriously and use them so strongly for our basis for understanding reality. It is like - oh yes this is it - this is the answer. But I just feel weird at how easy I am accepting what I am seeing and how much I am just not questioning it. I guess one thing is that it is hard to imagine any other way other than what I have seen - and because I have not seen anything else, I am just going with what I have.

Nonduality isn’t a concept. The very word says not two, and a concept would make two. Christianity also points to nondual, but rather than stating what isn’t, ‘Christianity’ suggests what is. But to you, nonduality & Christianity are indeed concepts. Assuming of course, you in and of itself isn’t purely conceptual.

There is an addiction to wanting to imagine what else to think about in terms of ego, spiral dynamics, infinity, nonduality, reality, etc. It is like the mind keeps on making up problems and scenarios to keep it busy and give it something to do, something to value, etc. as it is here in this infinite realm - to keep it occupied when there isn't anything happening other than the imagination/context it is creating. We are imaging scenarios and get lost in those and forget about infinity and then see the meta of the scenario and go back to infinity and the back and forth pendulum of falling asleep and forgetting and then waking up and remembering. The mind is curious for more - like hungry for food, craving to be mind blown. The mind wants to create more theories and claim more epiphanies for understanding reality when one may never be able to fully understand it but yet it does so anyway. The imagination is like an imagined escape from the imagined responsibilities of the imagined work/social/survival game.

You got it pretty well there. You’re imagining that there is past and future, while there’s nothing but the present. Yet if we get more intricate, the persistence or stickiness is the claiming / identifying, such as I’m imagining. To ‘unstick’ that belief, imagine whatever, then purposefully don’t, and notice it isn’t making any difference. Roll with just ‘the present’, or even better… just… This. “This” is helpful in regard to gettin out of concepts about This, and recognizing ‘it’ IS This. When you add ‘moment’ it’s time, ‘every moment’ is more so, and to realize there is no change sort of requires realizing there is no time. Notice you are not, as you say, ‘imagining the past & future all the time’. You’re imagining it right now, or not at all. The thought about ‘all the time’, is a thought which arises now or not at all. Also notice, whatever could be meant by logic or understanding, it isn’t in a past or future, and it arises ‘in’ the present only as the thought, that there is, logic or understanding. As in, when you attempt to point to it you can not. Then revisit the ‘stickiness’ of claiming and connect those two dots. Don’t expect to ‘think’ realization. Contemplate it, then let it go. For good. Gone. That way the realization can arise where it was so to speak. There’s no experience of “we’re imagining”. You imagine that. Time doesn’t give anything because time is a thought. If it’s given, notice really, you’re givin it. No ‘thing’ gives illusion of anything, you are, or you are not. There is no possibility of imagining the difference of past or future, because there truly is not a past or future. That’s a thought, like logic or understanding, and not an actual comparison of anything. What is meant when we say the eternal now, is nothing, no thing, not a thing, nothingness, nonduality, not two. Meaning makes two. Thought makes two. Those won’t do.

@Fearey Thanks for sharing! I'm not sure what you're referring to as Teal. In the Integral Theory map, Teal is the alt term used to describe SD Yellow. So it wouldn't make sense to go from Coral to Teal? I'd suggest looking into STAGES which is a synthesis of Integral Theory and Susanne Cook-Greuter's stages of adult ego development. STAGES includes the MetaAware tier (5.0+) and goes into detail about each stage. Attached are two PDFs that you might find helpful to read. One is an overview of STAGES and the other is a deep dive into the later stages and how they map with nonduality and the Buddhist maps of Enlightenment. In STAGES, a rough outline could be: 4.5 Strategist = Yellow 5.0 Construct Aware = late Yellow / early Turquoise 5.5 Transpersonal = Turquoise 6.0 Universal = late Turquoise / early Coral 6.5 Illumined = Coral (but again, Coral isn't even really a thing, so it's hard to name this a true stage at this point in time) The_STAGES_Matrix_Roadmap_GEN_10-18.pdf Here's a link to the more in-depth PDF: https://www.integral-review.org/issues/vol_16_no_1_churchill_and_murray_integrating_adult_developmental_and_metacognitive_theory.pdf

Integrating nonduality/God consciousness into everyday, 'mundane' life is where it's at. Awesome post ?

Just watched it in one sitting. The show itself was pretty good, but holy shit (no pun intended ), this whole scene was absolutely perfection. I was actually surprised that I heard a straight-up nonduality monologue in a mainstream netflix TV show.

Because neutrality has an opposite. Love doesn't. Love is both neutrality and bias. Love = Nonduality Edit: depends on what you mean by "neutral". If you mean "total non-discrimination", then that is the Love!?

Right, perhaps I don't understand this yet then. I do understand that everything is nothing but not that, for example, the perception of red is the entire infinity. I do understand distinction is a product of the mind, and can understand this function ceasing and the difference between all things vanishing. But I can't understand the unique perceptions not still being there. Just so I can understand your viewpoint, if a person falls asleep and has a dream, would you say every separate object in the dream is = to the entirety of mind? I understand the concept that it would indeed be the entirety of mind because the entire landscape in a dream is singular, but I can still perceive difference within the dream (in spite of the fact there are no separate objects in actuality just a single image projected by mind), so I think of it as appearance of duality inside nonduality. How does your understanding differ?

I know. And what I'm telling you is... that's precisely why you're not fully Awake. Complete the circle: the finite IS the infinite. If you think there is a difference between the finite and the infinite, you're stuck in subtle duality, not nonduality. It's very fucking sneaky.

Normal religion: it's all about what you believe. Nonduality: it's all about what you experience. Funnily enough we still have the same oneupmanship about who's got the best or deepest level

Neo Advaita -- enlightenment teaching -- Mooji, Akilesh (Sifting to the Truth) and also anyone else who teaches self inquiry. Nonduality -- there is no such thing as nonduality, but the term refers to what is pointed to (the unknowable), via exposing the dilemma of seeking, by the boundless non-communication which speaks to no one and comes directly from unknowing, and it's recognized there is no one separate from wholeness, and there's no intention in the communication -- Tony Parsons, Jim Newman, Kenneth Madden, Andreas Muller, Anna Brown, Mei Long, Ariana Reflects, Lisa Cairns, Tim Cliss, Richard Sylvester. Totally and utterly different.

How comes? As far as I can tell, if all objects of perception are removed (which isn't actually possible) there would be no experience ever. What would be experienced if there were no apparent things to experience? Nothingness can't be perceived in absence of an apparent something. You can say there is no subject and object when seeing red, e.g. that there is just seeing, but I think that is a pairing. I can't verbalize why because I know what it is like to "become" the perceived objects, but I think that is just recognition of absolute nonduality STILL taking place in an apparent duality. Dreams are also duality within nonduality. You could never see a landscape in a dream if you weren't seemingly located somewhere in the dream, which is then dual even though we know it is all manufactured by a singular mind. I see multiplicity of any kind as an apparent duality.

@RMQualtrough Awakening has nothing to do with the human mind. the human mind is an imagination within Consciousness just like a chair. And things like chairs are not dependent on a human mind. Existence = Consciousness. If it is not within your consciousness right now then it doesn't exist. There is only one Consciousness. God can't split Itself. I guess with nonduality you are referring to the formless Godhead/Singularity. You as God can 'experience' that. God = Consciousness. God can be conscious of Itself. Before birth doesn't exist.

@GreenWoods The dreamed up things are objects right? And these objects are finite. That is why I enjoy the waves in the ocean metaphor. The object arises and falls away back into void. We do witness this happen first hand when a thought arises as an object and then falls back into void. The human mind will always be an object in duality. If you remove all contents of the human mind, experience through that lens ceases entirely. I would say perceptions are unique. I don't know who came up with "bubbles" but perceptions can connect together to form larger "objects" it seems... Obviously all of your sensory perceptions are not identical but are perceived in the same space. BUT you cannot telepathically know the contents of my mind right now. Because these objects are unique expressions right? It would be impossible to "experience" nonduality for obvious reasons. It would be impossible for experience to exist without extreme limitation and finitude. To see red you have to perceive red, and that perceived red cannot be ANYTHING ELSE but itself... Which out of an infinity, is insanely limited. Like throwing a dart into the galaxy and hitting some random atom within the entire universe, but even more limited than that. I don't believe that any amount of God-consciousness could allow the human mind of Leo to suddenly be able to see through my eyes. Because the moment there is an object like the mind it is limited to being itself like how red is red in absence of blue green etc. When the object ceases it is just destruction of object back into void. Wake up after anaesthesia and the object returns and with it, inherent limitation. The human mind will always be a finite limited object and always be in duality. The appearance of duality is eternal. It's an impossibility to bring your human mind with you when the non-experience of nonduality is achieved, so you just have some sort of general anaesthetic effect... There's not really a "you" anyway so I can't accurately say "you" were in nonduality before birth, and same upon death. But from the perspective of the human mind it is like that I think.

I would say we don't enjoy deep sleep because enjoyment is an experience which can't happen in absolute nonduality, I think we enjoy the feeling of refreshment upon waking. I also don't really think there are realms the human mind can go to given it's main location of origin is within this particular dream, which I don't think we have control over. Rupert has a video on that called something like "there's no choice in infinity". If the entire top down nature of things is altered, I find everything stays the same. Yes a human self is a brain made of atoms and neurons etc but the nature of those things is mental? So the brain is just what the human mind looks like. Destroy that and it is reduced back into energy etc which presumably has no subjective experience? So God-self can't see through us anymore but sees through others as it is doing currently. Yeah there has to be other to have experience. Without duality experience is impossible. Rupert also has great dream analogies to show that, and also some which explain well why it could not just experience infinity and can only experience things via finitude and limit. It occurs to me that to experience red for example, limit is completely necessary because you can't see red unless the red is NOT seen by the viewer as being blue and green and yellow etc. Red itself is limited to one singular thing. I think this is a necessary and natural element of infinity, rather than intelligence etc. I think that because the void has no property at all, it is literally nothing (AKA infinity AKA all potential somethings), so must experience things like intelligence inside duality. I actually found far more insight in dissociative dualistic states of being, than in the states where I am everything. It was when subject and object became distinctly split rather than merged that I could know what the subject was. And it was like the mirror looking back at nothingness you described, it can't ever be seen but can be known via the somethings. I didn't see infinity there but knew total nothing. Infinity is more a thing I felt when having psychedelic induced out of body experiences (no form for the brain to attach consciousness to so it becomes sizeless and locationless). When a human mind wins the game it doesn't exist anymore haha, and this is an absolute inevitability all of us face. The game never ends! There's no enlightenment because there is infinite duality for all eternity! Without "self", there is no entity to win the game or be enlightened, rather the object (a morphing collection of experience called the human mind) just stops being "imagined" by the void... That is what I'm thinking anyway.

There's no such thing as enlightenment tbh. It's not possible for duality to ever end because you can't seperate something from nothing, and it's not possible to experience actual nonduality. If "Leo" is fully enlightened he's still here experiencing me and every other living (experiencing) thing in every plane of reality, just as is the case already right now.

I disagree. I think the term liberation is most often used to describe the end of the insight path, which very specifically means when the knot of perception is unraveled and the nonduality of the 6 senses is undeniable in every single moment (4th path in Buddhism, Rigpa in Dzogchen, etc). It is almost always characterized by an irreversible and permanent change in perception. This is a very deep level of realization that transcends the lower levels of: I AM, I AM EVERYTHING, and I AM NOTHING. It is when reality "syncs" when all filters finally dissolve, leaving only what is. These filters and fabrications are still active on psychedelic trips, sorry to say, and in full force when you return. "God-realization" is still standing on a ground. What you're calling God-realization is in the I AM EVERYTHING stage, and on psychedelics it isn't even really that, because it's always a *finite conceptual* memory for you now. I'm sure it feels really grand, but you're still clinging, so it isn't IT. I think the trap you fall into is that this stage can go infinitely deep into "everything", making it feel more and more elevated, especially on powerful entheogens. True realization, however, transcends that by letting it go. You gotta accept this one day, Leo.

The teachers themselves say that everything is imagination, and of course it also includes them since they are part of the "everything", but we still don't get it i guess. They say "we are imagination" but it is not enough for them to say that, what matter is "us" getting that without getting lost in the nonduality lingo also.

Share your favorite YouTube Channels. It doesn't have to be based on nonduality/meditation, but any channel that you really enjoy and you feel resonates deeply. I've been loving listening to these History YouTube Channels while at work. The series on Napoleon is awesome.

Which me is still conscious? I don't believe the self-me experiences a subjective conscious viewpoint when the self-mind is gone. I only think nothingness is conscious BECAUSE it's the only way by which "somethings" can have an actuality. I don't think it has anything to do with the self-mind at all. I don't think the self-mind has any consciousness whatsoever. I think it's a "thing" like all other things. I envision a blank piece of paper which is nothingness. Draw some shape on it which represents perception. And then the void is conscious of that perception/form. Now erase the shape. The paper goes nowhere but the shape just vanishes. That's what I see happening to the self-mind... Consciousness continues because if it didn't there wouldn't be anything which is impossible. But I don't think consciousness is something the self mind owns but vice versa I think the self-mind is like a temporary puppet plaything. Actual nonduality can never be experienced, because you need a subject and object relation for experience to take place. Probably when Leo is saying cessation is imaginary, he means for You capitalized. The self mind stops experiencing space and time, and you simply teleport from one time to another, if in a coma perhaps quite a while later. That is the self-mind cutting out leaving only You. Little-you is gone in that period of time.

The thing is that there isn't a you that loses the illusion of duality and then comes back to it... That illusion persists non-stop (it can't ever stop) and you the self-mind vanishes. Even from moment to moment it's not like there's a constant you. Just capital You which is just the awareness without attribute. The continuous self-you experience is due to memory and other functions of the human mind. But the self-you object is always morphing. There's not really a self-you entity that continues unchanged from moment to moment. Even on bufo trips like Leo does, there is still duality, and the experience is still happening to Leo (hence we don't all trip out every time he smokes it, and only he has the memory of that experience). If Leo experienced nonduality that would be cessation AKA nothingness. It can't be experienced at all. Only duality can be experienced and that's WHY duality is permanent or there'd just be nothingness which is impossible.

All of that is bullshit. I've gone beyond all that. Doubt me all you want. it makes no difference. You guys are so far from God-realization it's sad. It is completely obvious to me who knows what God is and who does not. I can listen to be teacher talk about God for 10 seconds and immediately I know he is not God-realized. What you have to understand is that God is even dreaming up samadhi, cessation, enlightenment, no-self, nonduality, "naty state", nothingness, psychedelics, past awakenings, gurus, RASA, and whatever other spiritual bullshit you are imagining. It's all spiritual bullshit invented by you to keep yourself asleep. Only God is real and you are not conscious of what God is. How can I possibly know all this? Because, I'm God. You'll only understand once you realize that I'm you and that Frank Yang is some clown you've imagined Basically, no one on this forum is fully God-realized. So watch out who you believe. There are many bullshitters here talking about things they don't fully comprehend.

Beautiful. I see no reason to be salty about these types of posts. Personally I find them very inspiring and empowering, and I hope people keep sharing their realizations. These types of posts are 1000x more helpful for someone who is seriously on the path than any of the nonduality debates that happen on the forum. So please, keep speaking your truth!

Reality/life is nothing but a huge huge disappointment. Everything, everything in this existence is deeply disappointing and unsatisfactory. There's nothing here that is truly amazing, nothing that makes me say: "this is worth living for, this makes all the other suffering worth it." One of the biggest disappointments, if not the biggest, is other people. I have more and more realized that everyone are selfish motherfuckers. They only care about themselves. They wont hesitate to hurt you if they don't get what they want from you. They don't care about you, they only care about themselves. Being alone hurts, and other people hurt you too. Everything in this existence hurts. It's all hopeless. My life is the biggest joke ever. I strongly suspect that people make themselves believe in nonduality stuff (that you are God, that everything is Love, etc.) simply because they can't accept how much reality/life sucks. Those beliefs makes everything seem so much nicer and it makes them more happy. Yet I can't stop myself from reading about nonduality stuff, but it's a complete waste of time, but what else could I do on my spare time? Everyone say all kind of radical things but for me all those things are unverifiable, so their words are worth basically nothing.