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Niroda-style cessations going blank from concentrative meditation in the waking state and then "rebooting": No. I didn't push the concentrative path/Jhanas path much, Mahamudra & Dzogchen -practice is different. On that path, these states don't need to happen, nor are they considered that important as in Theravada. I have experienced the causal states from the states & transitions during the sleep cycle. "Seeing" the rotation of waking/sleep/dream, the causal states that can show along that rotation, lucid dreams, and also the "Reality" of deep sleep. Which is exactly what is supposed to happen according to the tradition when Awareness has become strong/trained enough in the waking state that it continues in some forms into the sleep-phase, and stays during the state-changes in sleep/dream/waking which then "roll by" "before" ones True eternal unchanging Infinite Being. As a sidenote: In the Mahamudra-system there is the so called Nondissolution-Experience that opens up the boundless and eternal/timeless/always here/impersonal nature of Infinite Mind/Infinite Being and how everything emerges from "THAT", including all thought/feeling-arisings, which arise in an impersonal clockwork-like process ripening/arising from the groundless ground of Being, emerging fully formed and then being elaborated as a second step so slowly that one wonders at some point how that could have hypnotized earlier. And how time is constructed. Which I experienced as predicted in this system at the point where its supposed to happen. Which is a very valueable experience, since it shows how the separate-self, time, basically everything is constructed and emerging. Not only when "rebooting" from cessation, but in real/daily life. And that then gets stabilized with further practice. Brown, PotgW: "Though comparable in profundity to the Theravada dissolution experience, the Mahayana experience of nondissolution or unelaboration is very different, both experientially and philosophically, which is why the commentators are careful to refute the nihilistic dissolution position" "Once the practitioner gets some sense of emptiness (mere appearance,WbtR) pervading the interconnectedness of all times and realms, it becomes easier to persist with a continuous focus on emptiness when leaving the samadhi state and reentering ordinary daily experience.'" I assume that if I trained for some time in hardcore concentrative meditation that cessation-states become accessible in the waking state. I know the techniques that have to be practiced to achieve that. Yet, there seems to be a genetic/karmic/whatever factor if the long form of cessations is accessible (Niroda) or not. But I don't need these states since I have accessed the experiences/states and insights they give from other ways, as described above. And I don't need concentrative meditation to keep/access Infinite Nondual Being. Jhanas 1-7 are given anyways at that point, since its hard to "get" Infinite Space or Infinite Consciousness or Nothingness when that is already the case before any meditation during daily life. Jhana 8 (neither perception nor non-perception) / 9 (Cessation and/or Niroda) need "induction" via concentrative meditation.

Here you can find my summary of Pointing out the Great Way/Mahamudra, based on how it developed for me, written in my own words based on my experiences/milestones: Which funnily developed pretty much like the book describes. So it was fascinating for me that the experiences developed very much in line how they were described for centuries in the Tibetan Mahamudra-tradition, delivered by a book of several hundred pages of descriptions. Talking about a sophisticated complex meditation system.... One of the main milestones, after which it continued developing, was the blue marked part below. That happened after around 10 years of meditation (which was not as efficient as possible (quite inefficient actually, that is why it took so long), since I didn't get a lot of stuff right straight away, and had no direct teacher). That milestone is where the awakened and nondual states starts to develop after some time. Afterwards I was hooked, and used all the other tools (like the always here timeless nature of the mind, its infinite and boundless and nondual nature, and finally its impersonal nature in stage 4) for developing Nonduality in Yoga of One Taste (stage 3 Mahamudra), and developing these nondual awakened states towards the pure impersonal and totally unseparated nature, conforming to the Reality of the enlightened Mindstream (stage 4, Yoga of Nonmeditation). Then Enlightenment can happen, but can't be forced. Enlightenment is an accident. Yoga of Nonmeditation makes very (!) accident-prone. On the path are I would say between 5-10 major cul-de-sacs or mistakes one can make, which can either be overcome with applying the right technique of Mahamudra/Dzogchen (or non-concentrative meditation), or with hardcore concentrative meditation (which works without all this sophisticated technique, but is as hard to pull off (discipline, hours on the pillow needed) as we probably all know. That is why we see more "Natural/ or enlightened-by-accident ones" and hardcore concentration meditation enlightened ones (Ingram, Yang, Burbea and the Theravada & Zen crew), but very few Mahamudra/Dzogchen enlightened ones, since that sophisticated system has not been planted fully in the West. I see its potential, and consider that (combined with psychedelics) as the future, since few people can actually pull of the natural style (by definition), or the hardcore concentrative meditation style. So lets see... And if that is not enough, here is some more of the Sales-by-the-River: https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Pointing out the Great Way &author=Water by the River Bon Voyage, good luck, and if you have further questions let me know.

Because the state of cessation (or the dissolution experience) tends to reduce grasping/attachment because it partly frees from the "grabbing/grasping" character of the egoic mindstream after having had that state/cessation for a number of times. In short, it makes life easier and suffering/grasping less. But it doesn't provide full liberation/the potential for Full Enlightenment. The ideal of early Buddhism was the escape to these states of cessation, the more permanent the better. Permanent Niroda = permanent dissolution = Nirvana = No more rebirth. With Mahayana, the Buddhist Traditions broke through to true Nondual Enlightenment. Leos God-Realization, see the God-Realized approved Supreme Source for example, link above. Sounds a bit different than cessation/dissolve/die and get off the wheel of Samsara/Niroda/bye bye forever? Oh yes... Why? Because Absolute Truth is always right here. Never can not be here. Why shut it all down when IT is always right here? When the suffering/grasping clouds of the separate-self/ego are structurally dissolved (Full Enlightenment), and not just temporarily switched off via cessation, Infinite Nondual Impersonal Being replaces the separation/grasping/suffering of the ego in daily life. And the Sat-Chit-Ananda aspect of it (Bliss/Love/Compassion/Nondual Awakened Awareness) is off the charts. Trust the Salesman by the River. Caveat Emptor is good, but sometimes there is enough good Karma to just buy the right "stuff". by the River So no need for dissolution afterwards... Mahayana philosophy is a totally "different beast" than early Buddhism/Hinayana. For example: https://www.psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz#:~:text=Composed sometime around the third,cosmic vision of the universe. In Mahayana, Enlightenment is not the end/extinction/cessation/dissolution, but the beginning of the caterpillar having turned butterfly, expressing its enlightened intention not only in this life/bardo, but also in future ones. The whole Reality then goes like "Oh nice, one more for the team"... A whole chain of being of enlightened beings (human, alien, ET, Buddha-Field Creator/Sustainer/and so on) fits into the manifested Infinity of Infinities of Infinite Being. See the WbtR 2x2 matrix of enlightened & or merely awakened Aliens & Humans. Its a totally different and much more positive worldview than Early Buddhism, which was more like "die, cease and get off the wheel". Would be a lot of effort on creating humans via an evolution of billion of years and then getting rid of the gig asap., don't you think? Chris Bache in "LSD and the Mind of the Universe: Diamonds from Heaven" called the visions he had been shown of the future evolution of humanity a growth towards what he called the Diamond Soul, a magnificent destiny for the species. And since even that isn't the end, its Infinity up the Chain of Being... well, mucho adventure ahead. So it seems that at some point, Leo gets to become his n+1 AWAKE Alien permanently. Hopefully, he doesn't take to many detours on the way there. Being reborn automatically as n+1 "Infinitely consciousness" awakened Alien is not guaranteed, but earned and developed towards. Soul, Karma and such. Not that the suicides influenced by certain inadvertantly & flippantly irresponsible teachings/statements say "hello" in a less than amused way after he has left his current bodily-vehicle. So in summary, early Buddhism doctrine just didn't reach Full Enlightenment. At least in its doctrine/philosophy. It reached causal states, but not truly impersonal nondual/fully enlightened ones. There have been Nondual Realizers for sure between "the Buddha" (aka time the doctrine was formed)" and the Nondual Breakthrough towards Infinite Reality/ Infinite Being that happened first with Nagarjuna and his Middle Way/Madhyamaka doctrine/philosophy, but the doctrinal break occured with Nagarjuna towards Middle Way, and later Yogachara/(Infinite) Consciousness only. Selling non-extinction of the River by the River for the River by The River

Would you equate these three "modes" you just mentioned (eternal and timeless background nature of True Being/Impersonal Field/Mere appearance character) to what Buddhism tags as Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya, that is, the relationship between unmanifest Absolute and progressively denser manifestation? This is just out of cultural curiosity, because these three terms are not always that clear for someone who has not particularly adhered to Buddhism.

Mostly. There are different versions of what Wilber calls Causal States. Cessation/Nirodha: Totally appearanceless "film-break" like cessation. Timeless/always here/Nothingness nature emphasized. Time needs appearance/objects/"movement"/change, no appearance/objects is timeless/always here. These states also clearly show that if nothing arises there is no self-consciousness. ( https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=pistol&author=Water by the River , thx Benthino for the water pistol). Pure Infinite Awareness/Being with the potential of sentience, but not self-consciousness. That comes later. Which is pretty much a shocker, since it shows that any form of self-consciousness ego/separate-self is a) arising/appearing b) temporary c) True YOU is always "there", existence itself. Even if nothing arises/appears. That empties out the remnants of the separate-self/ego as appearing/constructed and removes the remaining separate-self-identity pretty effectively when coming out of cessation. Nirodha is the big/longer brother of cessation. Causal states with awareness (Infinite (timeless) Darkness suffused with light): Then there are causal states that are infinite/timeless, but self-aware. For example what Tibetan called the Clear Light state (Tummo, Bardo, Near Death). For example something a Neurologist (who had an NDE) for example described as "Infinite Darkness suffused with light". These states can also be experienced passing from dreaming to causal states to dreaming to waking up. One can have these states also with psychedelics, see Chris Bache Diamonds from Heaven. Aware Deep Sleep: Then there is Deep Sleep as not loosing awareness (and hence timeless, no duration experienced) as described by Thisdell, above. Causal States eyes open. And then you have totally empty impersonal states with no separate self arising WHILE the visual field appears. These are also linked by some to Nirvikalpa since there is no separate-ego-anything left, its the totally impersonal Totality/Reality arising by Itself. That is why Ken Wilber called the total empty/flat-lining state (EEG) some kind of Nirvikalpa "eyes-open". These are the true nondual IMPERSONAL states of Enlightenment. Only when having passed these causal states is it truly nondual impersonal Enlightenment/Infinite Impersonal Being. Before that, it is a Unity with the Infinite Nondual Field, and the character/ego hijacking that experience and interpreting it. Very common with certain substances, and easily confused with the final outcome of the total transcendence of the ego/separate-self purified by the experience of these totally empty states (hey, "I" wasn't there, what am I really? For sure not that temporarily appearing character-gig, because that wasn't there. And what I really am has to be the case always, even if there is no self-consciousness or consciousness OF anything at all, aka cessation or deep unaware sleep. That paves the way to true impersonal Enlightenment, realizing ones identity truly is this Infinite Nothingness which can never be any arising/appearance at all. The Infinite Absolute Being/Reality beyond any expierence/arising, timeless and eternal). And the Awareness of that Infinite Reality/Being can also be kept alive if the character reappears, the EEG shows something again. But then, this character/personality has a similiar status as for example your car: It appears in your Infinite Being/visual field, you look "out from it" while driving, but most definitely you are not (only) your car, but the whole appearing show/Infinite Being/Infinite Existing, the screen and the appearing show. Wilber Nirvikalpa eyes open/eyes closed: But the term Nirvikalpa has been used for millenia, so you can for sure find cases where its used for cessation/Nirodha and eyes open causal impersonal states, deep sleep, and anything in between. What is more important is what these causal states really can do: Kill the ego/separate-self-arising-illusions for good, because they show that these are temporary arising illusion-clouds, nothing more. Not by having these a few times, aber after experiencing them often and coming out of them and seeing the ego reassemble itself in real-time often enough can even get the hardest ego-illusions to wonder about their "reality". See below. When training via concentration meditation, it is easier to reach Cessation than reaching True Nondual Enlightenment while the visual field still appears. Because the mechanism of the ego-cloud-separation-arisings is not yet fully transcended. The mere appearance character, the Infinite impersonal field, the eternal/timeless background-nature of True Being is not yet reached while the visual field is there/daily life. That comes later. Later developed forms of Buddhism (Zen, Mahayana, Tibetan Buddhism, aka Mahamudra/Dzogchen) directly aim for the Nondual Realization. They know cessation states and achieve them, but don't value these as ultimate goal. Which makes sense, because if one can enter Nirvana/Nirvikalpha on command, its nice then, and later on the still well and alive ego and its cycles of contraction/suffering kill all the oh so nice Nirvana again. But shutting the whole enchilada including the ego down in causal states is a very good tool. Not necessary, but very useful. These statements are in line with the statements and experiences of modern Theravada-teachers and realizers like Ingram, Yang, Burbea, Taft, Thisdell and so on. And that is why I prefer Mahamudra/Dzogchen (for example Pointing out the Great Way, Brown). More on that below in the footnote 1. The relations of these states get clear once the timless Absolute Reality/Being is intuited as always here. Deep Sleep is so to say is always right here. Since what you really are is always right here, as it is in deep sleep. Infinite eternal Consciousness/Being which is totally empty and impersonal if no separate-self illusion arises. The tree watching itself, fully aware of its temporaray/passing/illusory nature. And that which is always the case, eternally so, True Being, fully understands itself then. Because there exists nothing else that could understand itself besides THIS of which nothing can be said, only pointed towards. So what is it that reads these words right here, right now? What is IT/You truly? Starting out to write a short answer answer, ending up with a Filibustero. Oh well, maybe its helpful for some. Selling Causal States as the final coup de grace for the separate self-character-gig/ego by The River Ok, it had to be coming: WtbtR now with footnotes. Guess not for the faint of hearted. Footnote 1: The original "Buddhas" Enlightenment-doctrine was Cessation/Causal-based, not Full Nondual (impersonal) Enlightenment in daily life. The original Buddhas Enlightenment was Cessation/Causal-based (Nirvana-based, "Nirvana separate from Samsara"). Which is still a conditioned state, bringing a lot of liberation from grasping, but not fully and in daily life. Separate-Self/Ego not fully transcended/dead in daily life. The breakthrough to True (impersonal) Nondual Realization in official doctrine came later with Nagarjuna and Madhymaka/Middle Path: True Nondual impersonal Enlightenment which could be sustained in daily life/with visual field. And while Madhyamaka tended to not say anything at all about the Absolute (neti neti, no concepts can be applied for the Absolute, which technically is correct), later forms of Buddhisms like Yogachara said that (in truly enlightened impersonal nondual states) Infinite Consciousness/Infinite Being IS an expression of the true state of things, and everything appearing is mere appearance (or "imagined"). See for example "Consciousness only school", for example Huang Po's Universal Mind, or the (very humble) Supreme Source "I am the teacher, pure and total consciousness, whence everything manifests. Pure and total consciousness is the supreme source, it has created the Buddhas of the three times, from it have arisen the beings of the three worlds and the whole animate and inanimate universe". God-Realization (TM) approved. Forms of Buddhism stemming from the original buddhist teachings (causal teachings, sometimes called Hinayana school, which doesn't exist anymore), like for example Theravada/Thai Buddhism Forest Tradition (and Ingram/Yang/Burbea/Taft) mainly trace themselves from these forms (although all are adding some form of Dzogchen and similiar stuff), don't stem from the the Mahayana Revolution of Middle Way/Madhyamaka/Nagarjuna), and YET end up at Nondual Enlightenment and not only cessation. And for sure in the original Buddhism some realized Nondual Enlightenment and not only cessation, but that didn't find its way into the official doctrine until much later. And that (besides that the original Buddha probably didn't exist because its the same story Jainism tells about its founder) makes me smile when there "Buddhism"-trashing. Its like trashing "religion". Which kind of religion? Polytheism? Ancestor-cult? Monotheism? Polytheism? Who cares, lets trash the rodents... So, now WbtR made it: Neither "Buddhist" like him anymore, nor the no-rodent crowd. Guess its "Viel Feind, viel Ehr!". Something we Germans are quite talented in. Oh well...

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/let-s-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/throwing-my-hat-in-the-jhana-ring and some more stuff from Roger Thisdell: https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/centrelessness-boundarylessness-phenomenology-and-freedom-from-the-cage-of-the-mind https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/maintaining-awareness-during-deep-sleep-how-to and: Cessation is a large focus of Theravada/Early Buddhism, helping on the path to Enligthenment. But it is not (yet) Full Enlightenment, see for example modern voices of Theravada like Ingram (Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha)/Frank Yang/Thisdell.They state the same. In Mahayana Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism/Vajrayana, this dissolution/cessation experience is considered valueable, but not more. Not the final goal. Experiencing Absolute Reality/Infinite Impersonal Being WHILE visual appearances and the mindstream arises as Infinite Impersonal Being/Reality is considered the Final Enlightenment. Because Ultimate Reality has to be constant, always right here. If its not accessible, clouds of separation are still arising which are not seen through. Cessation= Absolute Reality with no arising/appearance/anything at all, hence timeless, but also not self-consciousness (since that is an arising too). Helps seeing the illusion/separation-layers arising on the "reboot" while getting out of the cessation/Pure Nothingness, but does not necessarily destroy all the clouds causing duality. Normally it doesn't do that, that is why it takes lots of cessations on the Theravada path. No cessations are necessary for Enlightenment, it can also happen without them. In Mahamudra, instead of the Dissolution experience of cessation, the so-called "Non-dissolution" experience, or the insight the Infinite Mind/Being is timeless/eternal and boundless (but not yet fully impersonal) is considered of equal or even higher importance. Since that paves the way for the constant realization of Infinite Impersonal Being/Reality while the visual field arises, or Full Enlightenment. It is a difficult topic, needing a lot of reference meditation-experiences in order to start to intuit the differences. Maybe this is helpful for some.

@lostingenosmaze Based on developmental factors, facts, statistics and logic are from more stage orange values. The function of logic and facts/statistics is to use numbers and numeric value and disassociate yourself from the situation. Numbers and data can be used to distance ourselves, make it more impersonal and less personal, especially when one event was so traumatic that depression, derealization, and disassociation is one way to cope with it. Having said all that, stats and data have their uses as well. Averaging the information and numbers, finding the aggregate of other variables, it's good to have data and statistics for an objective consensus reality. Statistics and data on suicide for example is good because it tells us, approximately, just how many suffer from suicide attempts, suicidation, and suicide deaths per years. Mr. Girl actually had a great video on this, about BLM, and his take on Neil De Gray Tyson on twitter bringing stats, and Mr. Girl saying that him doing that is him trying to distance himself from those events with a wall of logic and numbers, triggering apathy for yourself to protect yourself from the overload of empathy and emotions that'll wave and crush your mind. Yeah that was his communication style then.

You are still missing what I'm saying. Leo isn't posting anything. Life is. Life is at play posting through Leo's avatar. Life is energy. Energy is in motion. It is typing happening. Posts happening. The Absolute is posting and typing. It is alive and doesn't have a reason to not appear as it does. You just gave a reason why Leo shouldn't be posting and thats because there are no others so what's the point. The Absolute is you saying this, the Absolute is me responding and the Absolute is Leo posting. It makes no sense to the individual's human thinking processes because it doesn't line up with how it thinks things should be. That's also the Absolute thinking that. Thinking is happening but by no one. Just mouths moving, fingers typing, sense making happening. Appearing as humans and typing and posts and trying to make sense of itself. It is so free it can do that because it's unlimited, impersonal, absolute, and everything with no reason or purpose, it just is. Life goes on. It's illogical.

This is one of the clearest, deepest buy playful, serious but joyful posts you´ve ever written in this forum, and you´ve written quite a lot of clear, deep, playful, serious, joyful stuff. Yes, the harder the anchor in/as the Absolute, the freer the individual relative perspective and smaller the sense of urgency for new relative body-mind perspectives. That is the proper Hierarchy of Reality. As John Wren Lewis implied in the most herculean feat in the History of Mysticism, that of resuming that Hierarchy in two words, "Eternity John-ning" (just substitute "John" with any particular avatar the Absolute emanates in a particular incarnation), it only takes turning "John", or any other apparently solid entity, into a gerund (that is, an "action"), substracting with this simple trick ontology and Identity from the particular avatar (human or not) which most take themselves to be, and placing them into the Impersonal Absolute.

There are degrees to the extent to which you understand something, that's for sure. But there are no degrees to being happy. I'm not sure how to explain this, yet. But definitely, either you're happy or you're not. This is definitely my position which you so strongly contradict (I'm okay with that, btw). The reason why I say that either you're happy or you're not is because, in truth, things don't make you happy. Happiness comes from within, just as hatred comes from within. Hatred is the polar opposite of happiness, btw. And it is also a form of resistance. Yes, this is true. What I'm saying does not suggest anything otherwise from what you say here. Is it broad? All that I'm saying is that all of this suffering, whether conscious or unconscious, is caused by one's own resistance of consciousness itself. This resistance can be in the form of a suppressed memory in which it is still you who is suppressing the memory. It could be in the form of a projection, the form of a defence mechanism, the form of a bad habit like smoking or doing drugs. Really there are many forms of resistance. However, one truth remains. It is you, no one else and nothing external to you or out of your control, who are doing the resisting. Even if your trauma is straight up from your birth, which is highly unlike because you're not yet developed cognitively yet at that stage, but even if that happens to be the case. Should there be resistance from such a trauma, that resistance would still come from you. And, it would still (equally) be the resistance of consciousness. Hence, the struggle is with consciousness. Perhaps not bliss, but definitely happiness. Once something is understood, perhaps something like a wild animal or a criminal or some sort of demonic entity (absolutely whatever) even pain, once it is understood due to awareness, it is impossible to hate it. Why? The mere act of understanding something is connecting to that something in a way that is both transpersonal and impersonal. It has nothing to do with you as an individual, but has everything to do with consciousness. You will be happy even with your scar because you understand that the attack, the violation, or mistreatment you encountered was not personal, not at all. It is exactly enough. Exactly. And if your basic needs are being met, such as the nutrition, the shelter, just the basic stuff, then your struggle with consciousness comes from your own inner resistance. There is a matter that you are resisting. By the way, in case I've still not made it clear. In life, as we call it, there is no choice but consciousness. Consciousness is direct experience. Whatever it is that you're trying so hard not to experience, you will experience it – one way or the other.

Very good. Your post is probably so "way out" that it didn't receive much response, although it being the most interesting one since its posting. Actually, "You" didn't loose "it". Just some clouds appeared that made what you called "deep sleep" a bit harder to directly "perceive/realize" beyond the clouds. Its always there. YOU are that Infinite Being containing the show of duality and nonduality, awakening and sleeping. That impersonal Infinite Reality beyond the "event-horizon" which is so infinite that no "movement" of focus/mind/thought/appearance/perception/I,me,mine-arising can ever get "there". And That Infinite Reality beyond this "event horizon" where small you "can't go" is constant and changeless. That contains all the states of illusion and realizing/awakening, which roll "before"/"within" its Infinite Being. THAT "you" can never loose. Or gain. THAT never changes, because change is contained in it, its expression or modulation. And THAT is absolute freedom & love & bliss. Infinite Liberation. Who are you again? Did you EVER loose yourself (really)?

Did I ever write that Awakened impersonal Nondual states are not beneficial (and necessary) for realizing True Infinite Being? I wrote that dozen of times. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Awakened&author=Water by the River

I would say it’s infinitely impersonal. It’s so impersonal that it’s literally nothing

What does it mean when someone says that Consciousness is an impersonal field. I don't get it... Sounds kinda negative.

yes, I perceive everything as one, and same: I perceive the total depth of existence, the infinity, a perceiver implies a perception. I cannot say: I am enlightened, but I have accessed states of total openness in which there is no perceiver, there is total amplitude. It is very subtle to arrive at this because the slightest movement of the mind bifurcates it. As you say, it is completely impersonal since there is no perceiver, or the perceiver is the perception . My previous definition maybe was not exact. Reality perceiving itself implies subject. There is no subject, there is total existence, it is not thinkable, it is attainable, and quite difficult btw, just some seconds . But in other hand, once it happened, seems that it's always in back ground

These are good pointers which you mention. "I perceive everything as one" is already one I to many. As strange as that sounds. The "I perceiving" is just more clusters of arising sensations taking ownership of another cluster of sensations/understandings of "everything is one". All appearance, all temporary, all illusion, all happening in Infinite Being. Yet, the impersonal Vastness of Infinite Reality/Consciousness can understand itself. But impersonal. And then, "it" just sees it was always what "it" is (Infinite Being), giving rise to illusions within itself, lending "its" Infinite Consciousness to a mirage/illusion, even if already cosplaying an "I perceive everything as one". Enlightenment is knowing what one truly is, and what Infinite Reality/Being is. And that is shockingly impersonal. Yet, it can't be any different. "Anything" else would be mortal, finite and changing. Truly formless Infinite Being, eternal always here, One without a second.

Nonduality doesn't mean Enlightenment. For Enlightenment to happen, Nonduality (or nondual states) have to ripen normally for a looooong time, for most (according to the traditions 100s to 1000s of hours), to get rid off the "Nondual-Realizer"-identity-arisings towards Impersonal Infinite Nondual Being/Infinite Consciousness without any remaining filter/lense/identity. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonduality&author=Water by the River Leo doesn't differentiate between Nonduality and Enlightenment (although most sophisticated meditation traditions do, pretty much all of the more sophisticated Budhdist traditions like Mahamudra, Dzogchen and also Zen - Kensho vs. Enlightenment. A Kensho IS nondual but a looong way from Enlightenment), nor seem to care about the difference. His God-Realization is in between mere Nonduality with a nondual-Realizer-Identity and True Enlightenment, see link above. Since he can't imagine Enlightenment in any way (if he could he would be enlightened), he happily just throws the baby (Enlightenment) out with the bathwater (Nonduality) and rejoices with "God-Realization". Strange that the God-Realization seems to suck annoyingly often when sobre... but never mind, no problem, no problemo, pas de problème... that Enlightenment is the end of suffering is bullshit anyway, because... hey... it would mean I gotta practice and am not the most you know what. @BlessedLion Seems you have to be happy with the one-liner or two-liner answers. Putting Nonduality and Buddhism and Enlightenment together in one box and dismissing all of it is in my view an unsophisticated and reductionistic perspective. But apparently useful for some... Selling "the flair of spiritual still dark ages by the River"

Leo the Blackpiller. On a project called "Actualized". A drama in in five acts. Oh my. Act 1: Narrator: What in my view is genetics/Karma is being psychic, seeing Auras, subtle beings, OBEs, and all that stuff. That can't be trained by normies. One either has it or not. Buuuuut training to rest in nondual awakened states? No. Many had to train a lot to get there (called meditation). Sure, some woke up spontaneously. It is called True Being. Every being has it, or better IS it. There are proven ways to access and stabilize that. Meditation for example. Not for every Karma-variant "delivered", but for many achieveable if training in earnest. Yours truly for sure was not extraordinarily gifted and needed over 10 years to get anywhere near anything nondual. But was lucky using a meditation system that got pleasurable quite soon and enabled racking up the 1000s of hours of cutting off the "I/me/mine-bla-bla" sufficiently (many of that in daily life) to get anywhere near awakened nondual impersonal states. Act 2: Narrator: What can be heard in the last weeks from our respected host are frequent expression of suffering, and also being annoyed by being human. If that attitude is not a dissociation (sick form of non-growth/aborted transcendence) and not an differentiation & integration (healthy form of growth/transcendence in Wilber speech), I don't know what is. Wilber, The Religion of the Future. All ways how transcendence/growth can go wrong, and how one can get addicted to 7th haven realms, and how to avoid and correct these, laid on a platter. And now limiting believes and justifications why one can not practice letting go of the separate-self and shutting it off (aka meditation), because... rationalizations like genetics, prodigies, creativity and artistic and other stuff instead of boring meditation and annoying and what not. https://www.actualized.org/insights/profound-quotes-032 https://www.actualized.org/insights/werewolf-boy Leo Gura: "Exceptionally spiritually gifted people are born just like this werewolf boy. And no amount of spiritual practice will give you their abilities. But because all that happens on the inside, people do not see it. So they end up spending their lives trying to emulate someone who is a genetic freak, and of course they end up disappoint with their lack of results or unhappiness in life. Because a werewolf boy has to live differently than normies. And if you as a normie try to live like werewolf boy, you will not be happy because it is not the right fit. This is why above all else in this work you must be true to yourself, to your genetics. Your destiny is in your genetics. But you need to discover what that means, which is no trivial matter." Narrator: Got blackpilled? Got blackpilled! Act 3: Al Swearengen: "That's what life is one vile task after another. Don't get aggravated then the enemy has you by the short hairs." . WbtR: Sorry my friend. https://actualized.org/insights/profound-quotes-032 Narrator: Profound indeed. The Buddha not-en-vogue-long-dead-probably-never-historicaly-existing-gentleman called it dukha. Unsatisfying. A closet-Buddhist in the making? And so much happiness & compassion that there are even dreams of nondual crocodiles biting fellow expressions of his True Infinite Being. Ken Wilber: "Ken Wilber: The downside comes with people that only use psychedelics or drugs and I found that over the years they just become mean. It's somehow just kind of closes them down it's like you keep doing it and you keep doing it you keep doing it it doesn't quite cause the transformation. It can cause a peak experience but generally not a transformative experience and some people like David Deida will say that in order for altered changes of state to contribute to transformation a permanent transformation it has to be basically endogenous and not a exogenous it has to be has your own source People who do that (Psychedelics) the people that do use both (Meditation and Psychedelics) and use it as a sacrament i think an enormous bit out of it." Posted over a year ago: Act 4: Narrator: So, my proposal would be either to rebrand the thing as spiritual-blackpilled.org instead of actualized.org. Or, as alternative, at least not giving the poor folks consuming all of that uncritically limiting believes just because one highflyer got hung up in the seventh-heaventh-with-you-know-what-substances without a way of getting to that blissful estate sobre and in daily life. Leo, sorry for the rant. I wish you really the best, but that self-defeating blackpilling trend (probably generated by severly missing seaventh-heaventh-bliss - which I can understand), pushing it mostly on genetics and prodigy and what not (I would call that at least a bit "Karma" and not only genetics )... I have to testify against it, because for many that "could make it" that constitutes black-pilling & installing limitting believes. And even if a being does not reach Enlightenment in this life, the soul (relative manifestation, but still appearing/same "reality" as everthing else, lasting longer than one life) will carry the transcendence-propensity generated by simply witnessing the mindstream (aka meditation). Same with compassion. Act 5: WbtR: Actualized? Actualized! Selling the drama (5 acts) "Actualized! by the River & throwing the backpills back into the River where the came from" Music while lowering the curtain:

"It's especially confusing that Artem claims that even consciousness/infinity are still levels of dreaming and not the final enlightenment, while you point to 'empty pure impersonal infinite consciousness' as the final abode in the process of enlightenment." The magic word is impersonal. Meaning no subtle "lense of perception" and any subtle experiencer left, or in other words subtle dualities/lenses arising and making the infinite field not fully syncing up in its true nondual nature. When there is still an experiencer OF consciousness/infinity, like in there is still a (often extremly subtle and impossible to spot before fulling crossing over) experiencer too much. A subtle duality preventing the full realization of ones True Identity, but doing a deep dive in its manifestation. The whole Totality/Reality experiencing itself without an experiencer is the "true state of things", and "It" doesn't need any fireworks to understand its essence. The problem is, that the meaning of that only becomes clear when it has happened, and it can not be fully anticipated or understood in any way before that happens. This last shift is impossible to understand or anticipate in any way before it happens. Even Norquist descriptions are just a preview. And Artem description of the hairless monkey is not the style I would use. But it is a valid desciption in how it emphasizes the point of the experiencer vanishing in the infinite totality of Reality itself, no longer having special importance (like a realizer of infinite consciousness) compared to the Totality that one truly is, becoming a total normie living ones life (which then lives itself without contraction, fear and suffering. Wonderful.). I prefer "empty pure impersonal infinite consciousness/Being/Reality", because hairless monkey can be misunderstood easily. And off-topic, one can be enlightened and still totally wrong on the relative level. Zen at War, Brian Daizen Victoria. Not to even talk about personality, which can have quite a "hang-over". Selling Water by the River

The notion I am attached to is the idea that I can make things up and create new unique art from nothing, being individually responsible. But that doesn't really make sense, ideas occur within me but the only ones I can follow and expand are the ones I already have witnessed. Ideas pop into existence, I set a focus, but the insight simply appears, the process feels impersonal and no different from outside inspiration. We collect and shuffle patterns rearranging them or gaining insights based on intuition, synergy of concepts and what's in-between the lines. One might say god is creative, but same thing there, everything is a part of god, god explores itself and can see, observe, organize patterns. But going for Non-Duality everything just exists and flows through awareness, morphing in form and spawning insights. I can take a bunch of colors and rearrange some lines and pick up neat patterns and forms I remember and create a new context. None of the elements are original, they are observations or meta-models and I can relate those too, creating new configurations. I can use the Buddhi (Intellect) to cut and separate reality into parts and then arrange them, there is a lot of leeway. But essentially, I'm taking advantage of a huge database of forms and reshuffling them into new scenarios. But maybe that ability itself is creativity, though it might be dictated by desires which clashes with determinism, but that depends on the self. If there is no self, just an experience occurring, there's still a sense of self and if that is deconstructed, there is no self but also no problem. Maybe creativity is the foundation of reality, concepts merging with other concepts creating gestalts that create other gestalts and grow. Arising self-organizing lifeforms, complex self-witnessing structures, created and driven by creativity to create new creativity through being. Which would make us the expression, observer and agent of creativity, a wave in the ocean, all concepts, all imagination, all creativity.

@Water by the River It's interesting that you bring up Artem. I'll post below one of his main thesis on levels of enlightenment. Can you elaborate where your and his views are the same and where they differ? It's especially confusing that Artem claims that even consciousness/infinity are still levels of dreaming and not the final enlightenment, while you point to 'empty pure impersonal infinite consciousness' as the final abode in the process of enlightenment. From Artem's Quora post: https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-levels-of-enlightenment/answer/Artem-Boytsov "There are no levels of enlightenment, but there are levels of dreaming, and every level has its own layer of bondage, which you progressively shed as you move towards the center: On the outer level of dreaming, you are a person in the body, looking outside of the body into the physical world and relating to other persons. You are a slave of society. On a deeper level of dreaming, you are a soul occupying the body and you relate to other souls on an energetic level. You are a slave of your emotional energy. On a deeper still level of dreaming, you are consciousness/God, a being of pure compassion and unconditional love, you are everything and everyone, the deepest form of love. You are a slave of love. On the deepest level of dreaming, you are Brahman, the totality of all existence, infinity beyond manifest, you are truly nothing, eternity, the deepest form of peace. You are a slave of death. When all dreaming ceases, you are just a hairless monkey walking on a ball of rock, eating, pooping, living and not imagining things that are not there. You are now free. Each level of the dream has its own amount of fun and beauty, and very few people go all the way, because each level is covered by its own layer of suffering. Embodiment of unconditional love is extremely fun and very rewarding. Being mentally dead while your body is alive is very peaceful, very restful, very blissful, that’s Buddhahood. When you’re dreaming on the outer layers, the inner layers are there, too, they’re just in your unconscious. As you go from the outer layers towards the center, the dreaming becomes more and more subtle, you become progressively more free. The last level, the Brahmanic level, is the most subtle. It’s almost no dreaming at all. Most people who are awake have awakened from one level of dreaming into a deeper level of dreaming. So their dreaming became a little bit more lucid. “It’s all a dream” as they say. Enlightenment is not awakening into your dream, it is awakening from your dream, entirely. It’s when all dreaming ceases and the mind doesn’t dream anymore."

It is something totally simple, it is realizing what you are. What you are is not definable, since it is the reality, and reality is the absence of limits. It is not realizing the fact that you are infinite, but what infinite is, what it has always been and will always be. The infinite, as is obvious, takes infinite forms, it cannot not do so, since if it did not, it would be finite. What we are right now is one of those forms, so enlightenment is realizing what you are by going through the form, which is a relative, cyclical appearance of the infinite. Enlightenment is that the infinite perceives itself through the form, and with this it stops being a prisoner of the form and frees itself. The infinite is conscious and total, although impersonal, since it does not have a center of perception, so it is difficult to let go of the self, the center, so that the infinite perceives itself without any obstacle. If there is any obstacle, perception will be distorted and deceptive, infinity will be perceived as form, god, whatever. Infinity is nothing and is the potential of everything, and is perfect, complete and total. The word enlightenment evokes the light that the opening of the structure of form allows you to flood the dimension of existence that you are right now. You can call this light love or whatever

ok, here my Olaf-version-take: "The delusion is that there are humans who are unenlightened. " There appear Olafs who have appearances of thinking/believing they are separate Olafs, so one could say there are unenlightened Olafs. But since there is only the Infinite Ocean freezing to an imagined Olaf, watching its own substance while doing so in a nondual way, actually there is no (unenlightened) Olaf. It just appears to be so. Actually, there are just some perspectives of Infinite Being ("humans" or Olafs) that have I-thougt/I-feeling-arisings (which makes them believe to be a human/Olaf) in their perspective/mindstream, while forgetting in real-time ("in-space") all other perspectives appearing in their Infinite Being. While being also these perspectives at the same time. Indras Infinite Net of Olaf-perspectives. And then one could have Olafs observing or contemplating all of that. But since there are no actual Olafs, but only the Infinite Ocean, there is in reality no Olaf observing unenlightened Olafs. Only the Infinite Ocean having fooling-itself-thought-feelings-arisings appearing in its Infinite Being. So its basically appearing Olafs talking to themselves, while there is only one Infinite Being, splicing itself up in infinite perspectives. The Infinite Ocean modulating itself as "freezing Olaf-appearances" and wondering what it really is. And what those other Olafs are. And for an Olaf to verify that for itself beyond any doubt, an Olaf normally need considerable time in nondual impersonal awakened states. Selling Olaf-ISM by the River

To give a preview on these facets of True Being. To know these states are real. Awakened (impersonal, not personal, no empty witness or duality of any kind left), Nondual (boundless and infinite field/vastness, Unity, Oneness) and Groundless (mere appearance, really just mere appearance or hologram-like character of the world hovering in Infinite limitless Nothingness, that behind your body), no external world if it is not imagined. Eternal and timeless and absolutely fundamental, since its boundless and can't go anywhere else, it is more fundamental than time in mathematical language. And how one imagines past &future&"background-fairy-tale-of-the-separate-body-mind" real time right now. Just more appearances/modulations appearing in the Infinite vastness/Infinite Being. Infinite and spaceless (since space is literally imagined in it, and with that any 3-,4-, or n-dimensional space, be it euclidian, non-euclidian, or whatever of the infinity of possibilities) Blissfull and salvation, since the separate-self-contraction suffering/bad-feelings and thoughts can get cut off/transcended in real-time by just looking into their nature. They appear & literally "move" within True Infinite Being, as its "modulations". Without psychedelics, one needs a looong time of this here: That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics. And with psychedelics, one still needs to do this until the very end. Else the whole elephant won't show itself. But at least one knows then that there is an elephant. Psychedelic Pro: Prooves that nondual states are not mere fantasy, and gives nice awakened states on which to cross-check if ones meditation-path is moving one there. And of course explore the Multiverse with its myriad of Realms and Beings, from Angels and Demons to ET&Aliens. And understand the mechanisms of manifestation/appearance (Chris Bache, Stan Grof, Rick Strassmann) for example). Psychedelic Contra: Doesn't deliver transcending ones personality/ego fully. This here: "That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics." So we get God-realized Egos. Not stable realization. A mighty trap. Somebody ought to make a video including that trap also. Committing blasphemy against the holy Liturgy of the church of god-realize-your-ego and then getting drowned in the River by an Infinity of Gods.

God Realization from what I have seen is just understanding more than the usual psychedelic Awakening (where one just projects an ego in nondual unity on the visual field or Nothingness or whatever). Like, how one imagines the past real time right now (which one does, and it doesn't exist anywhere else). And how one imagines everything else just to fool oneself (like parents, job, being a person,...). The problem with God Realization is: There remains a subtle "realizer" of all of that. Very subtle, very hard to transcend, since this is just a totally empty "Individuality". That is the last hindrance to Enlightenment, which then is therefor also stable if that element is seen through. Wilber calls it Empty Witness (see for example Religion of the Future). But not fully transparent and fully boundless nondual without individuality. And that is why God Realization is not stable sobre. These remaining separate-self elements kill the Awakened nondual states after the trip. In Enlightenment, all of that is totally obvious, and since these components are in place, or rather there illusion-counter-components (like self-existing personality, space, time, outer world, duality/out-thereness) are seen through in real time. Below, the outcome first, and then which kind of illusion-part of the separte-self structure it shuts off. Awakened (impersonal, not personal, no empty witness or duality of any kind left), Nondual (boundless and infinite field/vastness, Unity, Oneness) and Groundless (mere appearance, really just mere appearance or hologram-like character of the world hovering in Infinite limitless Nothingness, that behind your body), no external world if it is not imagined. Eternal and timeless and absolutely fundamental, since its boundless and can't go anywhere else, it is more fundamental than time in mathematical language. And how one imagines past &future&"background-fairy-tale-of-the-separate-body-mind" real time right now. Just more appearances/modulations appearing in the Infinite vastness/Infinite Being. Infinite and spaceless (since space is literally imagined in it, and with that any 3-,4-, or n-dimensional space, be it euclidian, non-euclidian, or whatever of the infinity of possibilities) Blissfull and salvation, since the separate-self-contraction suffering/bad-feelings and thoughts can get cut off/transcended in real-time by just looking into their nature. They appear & literally "move" within True Infinite Being, as its "modulations". That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics. And all of these states and/or insights above one can happpen one at a time, or two, or three combined... Any combination possible, and that creates the myriad of half-baked and different Awakening & (smaller) Enlightenment-descriptions ("Kenshos in Zen"). Ever heard some people have new Awakenings all the time? That is that. For truly awakening to what one truly is, beyond any doubt, one needs all of them. When that Waking Up happens, it is definitive. Because it kills the former illusion of being a separate-anything. That can never be believed again. It is dead. It always ever was an illusion. Even the God-realized ego/separate-self. All a dream. There was never anything else than the Infinite Ocean of Being, formerly with ignorance and illusion arising within it, and now back to the real state of "things", the ignorance no longer arising. Basically, one gets all facets of the Infinite Absolute True Being all at once, and once this happens Infinite Being is totally obvious. It is You. All of it. And can't get more Infinite than Infinite and more eternal than eternal, that is why it is final. The rest is just more appearance IN You (or consciousness OF x, man, woman, Alien, Alien n+1,...). Interesting for sure, but not so urgent. Got Eternity and Infinity to explore, remember? And even if getting distracted by the Lila-show for a moment, "it" is "just there", by just reaching out and killing the illusion-aspect that got re-established by just looking into its nature and just finding the Infinite Ocean of Awareness-Being. Your True Self. So in summary, God-Realization as used here, is a step in the right direction, but it is still not true Enlightenment. Of course, what is sold as Enlightenment is in 80%-90%+ cases not Enlightenment as waking up out of the dream, but just some nondual "Awakening". A dual dream has become a nondual dreaming. Dreaming nonetheless. What Leo calls (correctly) nondual BS. Zen differentiates between Enlightenments (Kenshos), and fully waking up (calling that Great Enlightenment). Only in the latter one there is waking up from the dream. With the former one, a nondual, or god-realized, or whatever ego/separate-self continues dreaming its nondual dream... Lovely place to be at, but still a dream So God Realization is between the naive nondual-Enlightenments with a dreamer still well and alive dreaming nondual-unity-dream, and true waking-up Enlightenment is beyond God Realization, since even the "subtle" one having the God-Realization is seen through as more dreaming. And one can wake up only once, then any separate-anything illusion is ruined for good. That illusions never recovers its fully. And then, one can go still playing with the Aliens for ever new insights, if one is so inclined... So it is tricky, because Leo basically has a Pre-Trans-Confusion in Wilbers lingo. Sorry Leo, but needs to be said. God-Realization is "higher" than a standard nondual-awakening (Nondual Unity Awakening of ego still believing its background story like parents, world, others). These are the Nonduality or Enlightenment-Fundamentalists he criticizes. but it is lower than True Enlightenment, since the final individuality/separate-self/God-realized-ego is not seen through. And once the psychedelic state delivering most of the items listed above wears off, this remaining not seen-through-in-real-time individuality/separte-self/ego kills the awakened state. and since it is all very subtle and impossible to fully understand without having had these awakened states, it is also IMPOSSIBLE to understand True Enlightenment from the perspective of God-Realization before it truly happens (else, one would be already fully enlightened when having seen through the last subtle elements of separation/individuality), Water by the River recommends the age-old recipe of Matthew 7:15-20 "You Will Know Them by Their Fruits". And the proof for that is: Psychedelic Godrealization doesn't last. When the psychedlic wears off, the filters/lenses/contraction of the remaining separate self/ego kick back in, and bye bye awakened nondual states (the ones listed above). And even during "God-Realization", the remaining individual projects itself mightily on all these insights. And then we get Infinity of Gods and stuff not for the faint-of-hearted as compensation. While there is only one Being/Reality, we now have an Infinity of "god-realized" egos. Basically, God-Realization never gets rid of the Individuality/Separation fully, there is always a subtle "someone" having all these realizations. Selling "going all the way" by the River PS: Roger Thisdells version of that. vs. Even the God-realized ones need to fully jump into the mixer Void PS PS: https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?q="God Realization"&author=Water by the River&sortby=relevancy