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I'm seeking some perspectives on how to transcend stage Yellow if your personality is biased towards individuality. As a kid, I worshipped stage Red in the form of heroes like Superman and King Arthur, but my military family was die-hard stage Blue at the time, and I was largely indoctrinated into this for much of my childhood. Strong streaks of independence, intellectualism, skepticism, and rebelliousness have always been part of me, though, and after I left home and started college, I consciously left Blue behind for a rationalist, scientific, atheist perspective. STEM and Ayn Rand and psychology 101 and Kant and others put me in Orange territory, where I remained until a couple years ago. This transition was "easy" in a way because it appealed to individualist aspects of my personality that originated in my worship of Red as a young child, and because I understood Blue so well, it was easy to leave it behind in the transition back to an individual perspective of competitiveness, meritocracy, and materialism. Then I went to business school for my MBA, which ironically wasn't full of Orange people but full of Green people. Intense Green was everywhere, and I was forced to confront it for two years. I was pulled along kicking and screaming--the collective/emotional view was hard to accept, especially given my personal biases. But something kind of strange happened. I never "was" Green. As I finally came to understand Green, I became Yellow. It was as if the lack of understanding Green was holding me back from a transition I had already been pushing towards, and once resolved, Yellow became obvious. I saw the nuance. I saw the integrated systems functioning together. I realized that perspective was crucial to the big-picture. Yellow's more impersonal big-picture understanding is so natural to me, and yet still grounded in some degree of individuality while embodying growth and learning for its own sake. Having now discovered Spiral Dynamics and nonduality, I question how to continue my growth. Turquoise people are rare indeed, so it's hard to surround yourself with them. Combined with my personal difficulty of truly identifying with a collective perspective, I feel this level will be much harder to achieve FOR ME. I continue to pursue enlightenment itself, though I think that will take time and effort over months or years to make meaningful progress towards. I wonder if, similar to Green, understanding Turquoise could eventually facilitate a transition to Coral if I can achieve awakening/liberation in the process. I would love to hear your thoughts.

@AlwaysBeNice god/nothingness/existential consciousness, all just words, I use them interchangeably. Don't want to get stuck there. Creation/happening/appearance, same. All limited notions, this and not that. I don't assume god to be personal per se, or impersonal. Never claimed this. I don't feel lonely right now. Everything's fine. Just try to integrate my experience. Of course they are not true in the absolute sense, since they are limited, within truth, within consciousness. You don't realize your own belief system. You have theories like "It came out of nothingness, as an existential happening" , "Oneness organizes things through love intelligence and law of attraction, but it didn't make these things". It's the same. Just words and thoughts, not absolute truth. The moment you speak against me, you take a postition. You can't free yourself from it, using dualistic lanuage. Claiming: "All one can say is delusional" is itself something said. "Everything is relative" is an absolute statement. Thinking "every thought is wrong" is athought. I did never say god created itself because of loneliness. This doesn't make any sense obviously. But claiming there is no intention behind the relative world is not better or worse than claiming there is an intention per se. Duality, word games. Whatever is true and not these word games can't and doesn't need to be spoken or explained or corrected. I experienced infinite loneliness, in that sense it's real to me. It has its place WITHIN consciousness, I can't deny it from my very experience. As long as you didn't experience it, you can deny it if you want. Whether it happened out of love, by chance, because of loneliness or whatever, just words, just perspectives. It is. But why is there something like torture? Your "existential happening"-explanations are as pointless as saying its because god is infenitely lonely. You could say by definition, in the beginning there was something like an "existential happening", I dont refer to this because it explains nothing, and thats not what I intend when using language. Not saying anything makes more sense than saying something obsolete. If this is what you realize for yourself, fine. I don't even need to realize it, it can't even be doubted that we must take the first miracle for granted, no matter if we call it existential happening, nothingness, god or big band or whatever. So I dont refer to this. Absolute truth is true for everyone everytime everywhere, so no need to talk about it. We must go one step further to speak meaningful words about what comes next. So why does torture exist? Different perspectives, one of which I experienced and refer to as infinite loneliness. If that is too much for you already, just stay "existentially happened".

When I was a kid, I used to think that God was the silence in my room, so it was both personal and impersonal for me.

@Javfly33 Personal or impersonal are just only aspects of God. Some see the "personal" part and some others the "impersonal". It is better to think of it with no attributes or with all the attributes!

Continuing with the same theme, I take a Theistic approach to spirituality and really can't stomach impersonal or atheistic approaches. There are many ways to godhood, but ultimately your power is not really yours, it is borrowed from a higher source. You may decide what you want to do with it, but it also has its own mind and will. That power, which awakens in you as Kundalini is Shakti, also known as the Shekinah or Holy Spirit, usually symbolised as a white dove in our culture (a hidden reference to the Dove Goddess, Ishtar). Much of the imbalance and schism in today's world is caused by the negation and even denial of the Divine Feminine, the Female Side of God. This is crucial to recognise and to awaken in you. Uniting opposites is only possible if you embrace opposite sides, which in philosophy is known as Synthesis, borne out of the union of Thesis and Antithesis.

I copied this from the thread on George Gurdjieff Intentional suffering is sometimes referred to as Conscious suffering in the Fourth Way. In Talks on Beelzebub's Tales, Bennett distinguishes four types of suffering - Unnecessary Suffering, Unavoidable Suffering, Voluntary Suffering and Intentional Suffering. Lets have a look at each of these to see if they can help our understanding: The first is Unnecessary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we incur because of our unreasonable attitudes and expectations towards others, from our ill-will, hatred and rejection of others, from doubt, possessiveness, arrogance and self pity. In other words, suffering arising from our self-importance. The second is Unavoidable Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that comes to us by accident or from events beyond our control, such as interpersonal conflicts, war, disaster, disease or death. Third, we have Voluntary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish a personal aim, such as an athlete who disciplines himself to win a race, or a student who labours to get good grades. And finally we have Intentional Suffering. According to Bennett, this would be the kind of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish an impersonal or altruistic goal, one that is directed more towards service to others or to the Work, and not for any personal gain. Bennett assumes that this is what Gurdjieff meant by Intentional Suffering. From an article on the second Conscious Shock https://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_is_talk_ae2005.htm

Interesting but have you thought that maybe you actually reversed time? Because time as we know it is a mind construct, not something really out there. I'm curious if you had any unusual sensations prior to this, or thought about something which altered your state of consciousness. This single point in space is said to be infinite void where no form or motion appears. When you experience spacetime, you are actually creating it right here, right now. There is no space outside for you to experience. Take for example your reflection in the mirror. What comes first is your awareness seeing the mirror and then comes your self-awareness perceiving your image. You are both the mirror and the image reflecting itself to infinity. Thus, void and everything are the same thing, right here, right now. Reality is not something beyond your perception because you are it and you are alive when your mind projects it. It is not predetermined as the void has no form. When you say consciousness, do you think that it is impersonal? From my perspective, consciousness is not some mysterious life force that embodies everything while you are moved by it. You are it. Agreed, except that I would rephrase "you exist because everything exists" as "everything exists because you exist". Yep, that's the power of self awareness. When you become aware that you are God, nothing is impossible for you for manifest, as mind has the power to create and is able to stretch way beyond its imagined limits. So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. Though I'm not sure why you say that you're a character or a puppet. Because it appears to me that you are the puppeteer. That means that you are able to manipulate reality just in the same way as you move your body. Body is not any different than the space around you.

M: Nothing compels me. I do what needs doing. But you do so many unnecessary things. It is your refusal to examine that creates karma. It is the indifference to your own suffering that perpetuates it. Q: Yes, it is true. What can put an end to this indifference? M: The urge must come from within as a wave of detachment, or compassion. I suffer because I want to. Sort of. There's no reason, it's what is meant by the term "unconsciousness". There's an impersonal contraction in the body, out of which arises the need to know, the feeling as if it knows. Then I keep telling myself the story in thought rather than going into the feeling directly. I feel as if I'm responsible for it. So, I *should* go into the feeling. No. No one cares. No one is responsible for it. I am neither detached if I go into the feeling, nor compassionate (loving) of it.

Yeah bro but you have memories and are self-aware. Isn't God your higher self-awareness? Do you think that God is something impersonal which is separate from you (identity) and that's why you say that you never become it? Because God can experience nonduality while existing as everything. Duality is nothing but a mind problem when the Creator feels separate from its creation. You are God brosky.

I want to share with you a positive experience I had with “possession.” I believe the people responding here do not have any experience with spiritual entities, so they immediately discount what you say about your potential possession experience. On my first 5 gram mushroom trip, I accidentally invoked what I can only describe as a cephalopod goddess. I know this sounds strange, but it is my experience. At first, my teeth felt like they had turned to foam. I then lost sense of my body in the normal sense, and it felt like I had tentacles. I began making clicking sounds uncontrollably (speaking in tongues?) I had a very real sense that I had began operating in a non physical dimension. I was communicating with higher forms of intelligence in a way that completely transcended thought. This was all very positive, but my ego, body, and anything you’d call human beyond my eyesight (which was severely altered) was gone. At the end of the trip I went to get the food I had prepared for when the trip was over. When I went to reach for it I thought “it’s so strange to have to do things physically again.” I think if you are more careful with your next trip you should be fine. It’s not a bad idea the meditate and pray beforehand. I’d pray to whatever positively oriented God or being you resonate with. Pray for protection. I’ll link a video that helps to describe the nature of demons which I personally believe to be real. A lot of the people here believe in impersonal forms of spirituality that do not discuss demons or angels much. You have to ask yourself why billions of human beings would believe in something that has no basis in reality.

God has infinite qualities. In this way, Reality possesses both personal and impersonal qualities. Furthermore, instead of there being a rigid divide between personal and impersonal qualities, the two are on the same spectrum.

Personal and impersonal are only thoughts, beliefs.

1) A "personal" god usually refers to a god that cares about you if you have faith in god. 2) Another form of god is impersonal, an energy or essence behind nature which doesn't care about things, it is not human-like in that regard 3) "You are God 1" everything is personal and derives from you there is no other consciousness but yours 4) "You are God 2" , "you" means all of consciousness, everything is also personal 5) "You are God 2" , "you" means all of consciousness, "personal" is a meaningless concept So depending on which god you believe in.

I know what your asking. DMT shows you that you are not as much as a "person" as you once thought, and also that the universe is not as much of an "impersonal machine" as you once thought. This is one way in which I do understand non-duality. Dumb vs personal. I think I grasp this...what we know a "person" to be is actually just a complex composition of what we know "impersonal" stuff to be. Enough rocks and dust and molecules in the right formation, we get a "person"

Obviously it's both personal and impersonal. It's everything.

Yeah, the story is deeply, intimately personal. It'll make you laugh, cry, both at the same time, it has meaning and purpose, etc. But it's just a story. It never happened, it isn't happening, there's no substance or reality there and no one for it to happen to. There's no character in actuality, it's all a dream, it's creative fiction so in that sense it's impersonal because there's no person, no character. Everything and every happening has to have a character in order to experience it in the story, someone has to appear in the story for it to have life, to be told. BUT the character itself is a fiction. What does this mean? It means you can enjoy the story knowing that anything is possible and everything is completely ok. Even when it seems it's not, it's OK.

Mm. In the relative field it's all about relationship, but there are dimensions of nothingness, which few know, except sometimes in bed, where it's just quiet and peaceful and impersonal.

Sometimes a difference raised between belief in a personal gods or belief in impersonal god/s Also, looking at a given tradition, they might answer a question regarding god or deities if asked but depending on the tradition they may not talk about god/s in their everyday teachings. To others it is central

@James123 after awakening. It is ALL personal, without an opposite This personal is wholeistic - not egoic/partial/body-mind It is a personal cosmic body/mind - ONE. Or we can say, it's not personal. The distinction of personal/impersonal collapses and merges into ONE. Just a dance of words

Past stories are rewritten or recontextualized. They are, always no matter what, but we tell ourselves stories from a skewed perspective of self. In awakening they are rewritten and understood from an impersonal big picture viewpoint. It takes an enormous amount of love and focus to do this. Easier if it's not done alone, especially in more extreme cases. When someone else is loving you with the eyes of God and sees you as perfect and a part of the whole it's easy to imagine oneself that way too, (or stop imagining one's self rather.) You can't focus on the things that could possibly hold you back, because then they are exactly what's holding you back. Eyes on the prize.

@Extreme Z7 Name calling is not a good tactic. Yes, we are all learning and developing. I have done many years of study on all of these subjects and continue to learn. Unfortunately you've made it personal. It's an impersonal ideological discussion. Wish you the best. No hard feelings on my part.

A full letting go is out of your control. It might feel like you are in control of satori, but you can recognize that satori is this already and that the energy of wanting to have it, know it, control it, seek it, is what creates a sense of seperation and hides it. This is it already, God (this) can appear as a seperate person writing or reading this, from the persons point of view it is personal and meaningful, but really it's always just God (this) appearing as whatever is appearing. It is impersonal, and the biggest mind fuck is that this isn't actually happening, the person in control is a complete illusion, it was never there.

Non-doership is now utterly obvious. Thoughts and intentions arise out of nothing, there is no doer. It's just like a dream, it just unfolds. In a dream, no effort is required whatsoever, it just unfolds within a mind that knows not what's happening. Same with this so-called Reality. It is just unfolding, there is absolutely nothing to regret, to feel guilty for, to feel proud of, life - not only death - is the great equalizer. There seems to be a deepening of this realization. Though sometimes the belief in doership arises again, and the belief in being the body-mind. It's chaos, sometimes it all feels personal, sometimes it feels totally impersonal. It's never consistent, it's constantly changing. A beautiful experience, never boring. And all resistance comes from this belief in personal doership. It arises out of nothing, just like everything else. All week there has been plenty of resistance to working on the music project. My friend has shown me the first version of the artwork, it looks quite good to me. Only the album cover is missing. And yet, there is still so much resistance to opening Studio One and working on the mixes. There is a sense of overwhelm. So I don't do it, something else gets done. And that's fine, it's exactly how it needs to be.

It's not merely that consciousness is awaking up. This is still too impersonal. You are waking up to the realization that YOU are God -- the only being in existence, who created itself. Keep hammering on this point: YOU ARE GOD! Really! You are creating yourself. Yes, of course, God is Consciousness, but it's absolutely crucial that you fully realize that YOU are God, and just some vague field of consciousness or some impersonal thing. This must be an uttetly personal realization. The ego must realize it is God. Zero distance between you, reality, and God. You have not awoken until you are completely conscious of how you create every object in your room and every creature on this planet. Are you conscious that you created the sun?

In recognition of the true self, "suffering, strife, sadness, struggle and grief" might still appear. They appear but they are perceived to be momentary. You are simply not attached to these thoughts/emotions/sensations and so they don't stick on you. You must be sad for a few moments but quickly you are crystal-clear and present and aware of your true nature. Nobody is saying that suffering, strife, sadness, struggle and grief are not beautiful, but they are only beautiful from the perspective of the truth. The one who is suffering, does not feel that his suffering is beautiful. So then, we must transcend the egoic-mind which is not able to perceive suffering as beautiful. It is only from your oneness that you can perceive the beauty of the duality. In duality you have no sense of duality, you are completely lost. You are completely identifying with the egoic-mind. In that place of suffering, there is no one to perceive it as beautiful. And that is a shame. This is a life wasted in identifying with the mind, identifying with suffering, strife, sadness, struggle and grief. The experiences themselves are not the problem, but when you (pure consciousness) identify yourself as these experiences, it is pure foolishness. Truth is not about appreciating foolishness. Someone doing "hard work" for someone else because of their attachment that they call "love" is foolishness. You must not appreciate it, because it is pure foolishness. No one must "work hard" for anything and anyone. One must only be one with their own heart. You say "parents work hard to ensure a good life for their children" but what is this other than a thought? What hard work is anyone on this planet doing? We think a lot of unnecessary crap in our mind and any activity becomes "hard work" simply because you are thinking so much. Instead of cleaning the dishes you think "there are so many dishes to clean... when will this end... why am I doing it??" and after that you'll go to your mom and say "yea mom I did so much hard work today, I cleaned up all of the dishes!" you literally did nothing but clean dishes. It is not hard work. It is only the mind saying it is hard work. You must live life effortlessly, because you are one with life. Life does not do "hard work" to be itself. There is no need for such beliefs. It is only holding you back from the ever-present truth that is consciousness itself. Be aware of being aware. You say "We like that suffering" but who is that who likes the suffering? It is the sufferer itself that in retrospect loves the suffering. In that moment it is very painful, it is very foolish to suffer in that way so absurdly. It is mad completely. Human beings are not meant to suffer and have attachments to suffering. It is very unnatural. The one who "likes" suffering is merely the mind. The mind doesn't want to let go of the suffering, because only in suffering can the mind exist. The mind, suffering can't exist in a peaceful, serene mind of the supreme self. And so it will make you believe "I love suffering" but you must not believe this thought. You do not like suffering, it is only a thought. The impersonal supreme self does not care about suffering. It wouldn't think twice about it. It is merely another phenomenon perceived within consciousness. It doesn't get attached to it and says "But I like suffering" because it doesn't give a single flying fuck about suffering, about grief, about sadness, about love, about joy, about peace, it actually is completely detached and impersonal, has absolutely no interest in anything. It simply is. And that is what you are. Be aware of being aware. When you are aware of being aware, you are successfully "just being". That is wonderful. Remain as you are. We don't do irrational things and suffer because of love, actually what you believe to be "love" is just "attachment". Replace the word "love" with attachment, because you are talking about attachment, not love. Love is universal, it is beyond duality, attachment/passion/obession are not love, and they are not greater than true happiness. I don't know what you mean by "superficial happiness", I don't think anyone is seeking that here. Currently you are attached more than you are aware of your true nature. You must be more aware of your true nature than you are attached.