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@Husseinisdoingfine You can still cling onto the Buddha and nothingness. This work is more serious than you’re thinking right now.

I remember reading a wonderful interpretation of the Buddha, where he did indeed awake to God and Love, but then called it 'nothingness'. He did this so that his followers would not have a preconceived notion to cling to. In the similar way that Christians have a humanoid view of God due to Michelangelo's paintings, the Buddha didn't want something like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_7:16 ... just kidding Leos Teachings hold a lot of potential, and my guess is that soon as they evolve over the Solipsistic/Infinity of Gods - phase (please excuse my humble opinion), and no longer confuse a not-so-empty God-(separate)-self with the Absolute Emptiness of the Absolute/Reality, or the Absolute Empty Abyss of Nothingness of Impersonal Consciousness, the "fruits" (Matthew 7:16) will also be marvelous. I guess there is quite a high chance that that will happen. He is smart and diligent, and has published some awesome videos on bias and self-deception and the like, not to speak of all the other videos which contain really some great stuff. But in this Lila nothing is predetermined or certain. So, as always: Enjoy the show, and Bon voyage! As soon as every little subtle remaining -separate-self-arising/lense/bias/awareness of emptiness/awareness of being/awareness of being God or Reality or Alien or whatever, anything at all/awareness of being anything- is transcended/seen&let go/subject made object/ burned and is no longer colouring the experience of Infinite Reality or True Identity of Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, then "burned by the everburning flame of ones own primordial nature —all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free." - first part yours truly, second part in quotation marks by Bassui (also below). I wish him exactly this genuine peace and joy permanently in daily life that comes along the permanent realization/waking up. Then one is the whole Enchilada, watching itself, being absolutely Nothing(ness)..... and Nothingness never has a problem, only can contain them... moving around in itself like mosquitoes, but then of the slow flying version, easy to splat/transcend/cutoff. Sorry, probably not a Boddhisattva-style metaphor. More on the mosquitoes see below: So, it seems, until then: With every heroic pioneering effort, there is certain danger. Hic sunt dracones! https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hic_sunt_dracones Water by the River PS: The full quote, from Three Pillars of Zen, Kapleau: Bassui: If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free. For the first time you will realize that walking on water is like walking on ground and walking on ground like walking on water; that all day long there is speaking, yet no word is ever spoken; that throughout the day there is walking, yet no step is ever taken; that while the clouds are rising over the southern mountains their rain is falling over the northern range; that when the lecture gong is struck in China the lecture begins in Korea; that sitting alone in a ten-foot-square room you meet all the Buddhas of the ten quarters; that without seeing a word you read the more than seven thousand volumes of the sutras; that though you acquire all the merits and virtues of good actions, yet in fact there are none. PSPS: The rest of the Mosquito metaphor: .... And by the way, what one thinks what one is if one thinks oneself to be still anything at all: These are the mosquitos/separate-self-arisings (I-thoughts and I-feelings)/lenses/localizations, buzzing around in True You (the Totality), endlessly annoying, but making the hell of a show.... If they are too fast emerging/moving for oneself to easily squat them all at ones own convinience (genereally, keep the useful ones (the functional character) buzzing, squat the rest, the ones with "suffering" painted on them), then there is meditation/transcedence work to do. The meditation/Transcedence gets the bliss flowing by the way, which is like some smoke that slows down the moskitos, makes them easy to squat/transcend.

Yes. Nice that you write this post. Very true. >"Solipsism, yes. But from the point of view of God (which is not a point of view, obviously, but using that word as a means to understand ourselves). Not from the point of view of the ego [separate self]." Not from the point of view of the ego/separate self! And Solipsism from "the view" of the One without a second, or Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Suchness/Reality itself doesn't even really need to be mentioned. Because there literally is nothing else, like in "never could be". So it doesn't really make sense talking about it. To whom? "Others"? The consciousness of the mind-stream of other beings can be directly intuited/felt/realized to be ones own empty consciousness at certain levels of Awakening. But Impersonal, Totally Empty Concsiousness. It "wouldn't work" any different way, it has to be empty. Technically speaking, "IT" would not be compatible to fit into the perspective/mind-stream/consciousness of another being/perspective if it weren't totally empty. Just Awareness, AWARE, and nothing else. Empty. Impersonal. How could a consciousness with "my" personal properties "fit" into the mindstream of another being. It couldn't. Therefor, Nothingness, totally Empty Impersonal Consciousness, with another mindstream (feelings/thoughts/subtle feelings of being/separateness/....), structurally exactly the same as ones own mindstream, with the same essence - Nothingness. Which is also the same essence of very appearance of the visual field also. All of that can be directly realized. With certain levels of Awakening, one can directly intuit that the separate-self illusion arisings (I-thoughts, I-feelings) in the mindstream of other beings has exactly the same structure than ones own mindstream (and its I-thoughts, I-feelings). One doesn't read the content of thoughts (some do), but directly intuits their structure/process, in the exactly same impersonal consciousness than the essence of ones own mindstream. And that essence of Nothingness/Impersonal Consciousness is also the same essence of EVERY appearance of the world in the visual field. Also, a direct experience in Awakenings, and something that gets constant in Enlightenment (to paraphrase for example the Mahamudra-system): "Crossing Over to Enlightenment happens when every thought/concept/feeling ("internal" arising) and every appearance (world/visual field form) is seen as empty-thought-concept and empty-appearance arisings in Infinite Awareness-Space". And that is what one is: IMPERSONAL Empty Consciousness. Or better "Nothingness", to make sure that nothing is projected onto it, or that its not fully empty. It is literally Nothing, but with the capacity for sentience. And even that isn't always active, see Deep-Sleep. Definitely, it doesn't include separate-self arisings/confusion/illusion arisings "on top". That is "the screen", and its capacity for sentience/awareness/consciousness. To make it specific: Talking about Solipsism could only make sense from totally empty impersonal Consciousness or Nothingness. And then it is not necessary! (Because it invites more mis-understandings than the clarity it delivers). Talking about Solipsism from any ego/separate self perspective doesn't make sense. And if you are at that empty level of infinite (!) impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness, one without a second, it is redundant and totally unnecessary to talk even about Solipsism. >As long as there is an identification process, there is delusion Yes, exactly. And any form of Solipsism applied to the level of the delusion/relative/ego/separate-self level only can increase narcissm or (separate-)self-grandiosity, which is the No.1 building block of the separate self, the most seductive one, the most dangerous delusion mechanism of Maya. One of the very last things to go. (And then one can guess what makes Solipsism so attractive for egos/separate selfs? Well, one can go ahead confusing the little separate self/ego with the full glory of God/Kosmos/Reality, and feel veeeery important, and boast around with absolute claims.) That (the danger described above, and other dangers) is why by the way in Tibetan Buddhism (and practically all spiritual traditions) Realized Ones normally NEVER speak about their attainments, and at least tend to downplay them, state them smaller, because that tends to boost ones self-importance. And that is not good, neither before or after Enlightenment. Brings bad Karma, not as happy-as-can-be-life. And the same holds also for the not-realized or not stable realized ones. Not publicly announcing ones realization has got other negative effects (like not much examples, or making it appeat to be nearly impossible to reach), but saves oneself (and others) in being more on the "humble side") from the burden of self-importance/self-grandiosity. So its a balance, see one of my last posts with the Video of Ken Wilber. And second factor: Even if you know Absolute Reality and are enlightened, that does in no way mean that ones relative life automatically already expresses the potential that this realization opens up in terms of compassion, ethical living, and embodying the truth. It provides the potential to do so, and also tends to unfold this way. But it is not assured. Ken Wilbers "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up". Over the long-term, when Enlightenment becomes more common, only the "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up" stable and mature versions of it will find group-approval/consensus. Because only that version of it is "cool", the other versions are "less than cool", or "pretty uncool". And if with Solipsism one can boost the importance/self-importance/grandiosity to hilarious proportions, confusing ego/separate self with Reality/God, and claiming stuff that is just not appropriate to be claimed for any separate self/any perspective in the Great Net of Indra/Reality/any being, but only for God proper (Nothingness, Impersonal totally empty Infinite Consciousness), well, then one has exchanged the former separate self with a new vastly-blown-up"God"-ego-separate-self, an ego/separate self blown up to cosmic dimensions and self-importance. And then good luck transcending that, and the suffering that goes along necessarily as with any separate-self identity. The big big risk that at least yours truly can see on this forum: Exactly that tends (not at every case, depends probably on the baseline-"blessing"/Karma of narcissm and self-grandiosity already in place) to happen with frequent usage of Psychedelics. 95% of the properties of Infinite Reality get revealed (the relative side, like ones identity with the whole universe (this Infinite Void-Universe, Buddha-Field, or "God" if you are so inclinded to call it that way), but not the fully empty/impersonal Absolute side of it, Absolute Impersonal Emptiness or Nothingness/Abyss that can never be seen. (And by the way, as Steven Wolinsky for example writes based on his Awakenings/visions, there are and infinite Number of Infinite Other Void-Universes/Buddha-Fields just like ours, each with a God/Buddha at its center running the "show", while being it. And none of that is the Absolute, its all relative stuff, manifestation. Not the absolute empty Abyss of Nothingness.... I remember a video somebody once maid about an "Infinity of Gods", sovereign just like oneself.... "). At least not completely, because the Psychedelics don't kill the last remnants/rest of the last subtle separate-self arisings (mainly "Individuality", or a very subtle hard to spot feeling of still being there as anything at all, or an Awareness "of" Emptiness/Nothingness/Nonduality/whatever. Still an Awarness "of"...). And, to make it even more seductive or dangerous: One is not aware what this last "individuality", or "Awareness of ..." is, or that that is still happy and busy and active, destroying ones crossing over to Complete Realization, making one still suffer. If one would understand these last remnancts of Illusion, of "Individuality", one would instantly wake up and stay that way. Knowing what one really is. If Realization of ones Identity with the Absolute Infinite Reality/Nothingness ends after the trip, maybe there was still something active blocking the full Realization throughout? Little remark, included after a waaay to long rambling: If somebody has truly read until here, and thinks all of this post is all BS, please quote the number 147, to show that one has actually read most of that dry and boring musings of yours truly until here... ( : . Thank you, very kind. Well, nothing of what I have written will proove anything for those persons having fallen heavily for that trap. especially those who do it just by thinking and watching videos, and boosting their narcissm already with that tremendously, and didn't even walk the Psychedelic path properly, but are parotting concepts & dogma from someone else. In my humble opinion, it doesn't speak for the forum that such an ego-show can happen without more highlighting these obvious mistakes. So for the "all is understood by watching the vids, but never did a trip"-fraction: Maybe consider taking one of the harder psychedelics like 5-MeO, have most/95%+ of your ego/separate self handed on a platter to you, and then come back with maybe a little bit more existential humility and awe in the face of Infinite Consciousness/Reality, and the way it can easily kill 95% of you with a little chemical and smile while doing so. Luckily, normally their tone of writing, loaded with self-grandiosity, narcissm, and writing style that generally is not "so filled" with bliss/love/compassion as one would normally expect of Divinity/Absolute/God-Realization, showing for every reader with at least some form of working spiritual compass in the heart, that their suffering probably has not ended, and they are peddling conceptual ideas and not actual realization. and if they "camouflage" their writings a bit more towards the "humble and loving/compassion side", at least it gets more pleasant and softer to read And as always, Bon Vovage for "everybody"! Selling Water by the River

Buddhism doesn't acknowledge Love Awakenings. They focus on emptiness and nothingness and the void etc. Leo makes fun of it because it denies an aspect of Reality which is obvious. So Buddhism is close-minded and therefore limited. Leo has certain limitations as well but many of you don't see that either. In truth human spirituality is utter bullshit and is corrupted by human egos. You only discover this when you understand that God loves EVERYTHING.

One of the best arguments to use against religious people is to ask them if something can come from nothing. Almost all of them I have asked so far have said that it is impossible for something to come from nothing. But there is a problem with saying this because if you say that something cannot come from nothing, then you are contradicting yourself because how can you claim you have free will if your thoughts and choices are always coming from something outside of you. That is essentially determinism in a nutshell. And their God would have to come from something too since God is "something" by their logic. But if God is Nothingness, and they claim that something cannot come from Nothingness, then they are basically saying that God is impossible and doesn't exist. On the other hand, if you say that it is possible that something can come from nothing, then you are at least opening the possibility of free will because free will is being able to make choices independent of past influences. However, this does not escape the problem because if you claim that it is possible for something to come from nothing, then you admit that there is no outside creator separate from creation. If something can come from Nothingness, then the something that came from nothing is Nothingness manifested into somethingness!! There is no existencer of existence. There is only existence. Therefore, God does not exist. Argument from free will is that if your choices come from something, then you do not actually have free will. But if your choices come from nothingness, then you have free will. But claiming that you have free will is also saying that you claim that you are God, which most religious fundamentalists do not agree with. They think God is separate from them and creation. Argument from determinism is that if something can only come from something, then determinism is correct and you cannot have free will. But this is dangerous to religious thinkers because then that would also mean that sin cannot exist since sin is a freely chosen act against God. You cannot be held responsible morally if the causes of responsibility go back infinitely. Compatibilism seems to be the correct way of viewing the relationships between free will and determinism. Consciousness isn't entirely free because it needs to limit itself in order to experience itself. Neither is Consciousness mechanistic. The past/future don't exist outside The Eternal Moment, so extreme determinism isn't right either. The correct answer lies in the balance and non duality of freewill and determinism. Think of it like Free Will is the Yin and Determinism is the Yang. Just like how the Universe is hot and cold, dark and light, and neither one or the other. Convincing a Religious Person What God Really Is My thoughts on all of this are that everything you see around you comes from nothingness. There is no such thing as an infinite regress because everything goes back into nothing and not something. Infinite regress assumes the past exists, but you have never experienced the past, only the present. Infinite regress does not exist, only an Infinite Process. For instance, you can look at a pencil and can use your mind to trace the ''causes'' back forever. But that isn't because it is an infinite regress. That is because the Present Moment is an Infinite Moment and can keep imagining past/future forever in this Infinite Moment/Process. All of your thoughts tracing a pencil ''back'' is actually one thought of an Infinite amount of thoughts occurring in this Uncaused Moment. Consciousness is Uncaused. What would cause consciousness? Everything you trace as a cause is Consciousness! Everything you experience or define as a cause is occurring within Consciousness! A pencil is nothing but a figment of Consciousness. Every object, sound, perception, music, art, brain, and person is a figment of Consciousness! The cause of a pencil is Nothing! But Infinite Consciousness can imagine ''causes'' forever because Existence is Forever and is Uncaused! There is no such thing as an Infinite Regress (never has and never will) only Infinite Consciousness! What atheists call the Infinite Regress is actually ''God'' or Infinite Consciousness! I actually do not prefer the term God. I think The Force is more accurate. Think of what you call God or The Force as being Gravity. Gravity is God! Why do you think George Lucas calls the most fundamental substance of the universe, The Force? He is pointing to Gravity, which is a figment of Consciousness. The Jedi are using The Force (or Gravity) to manipulate Gravity!! God is Gravity, Consciousness, The Force. So yes, you have free will but you also don't. Black and white thinking is one of the main problems of the religious mind. What are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree? Share your insights.

Hi Josemar, Please excuse me not commenting on having done (in my country) illegal psychedelics in a public forum. But others have and publicly declared that, and are "quoteable", see below. But what I can tell you that certain states, that can also be reached via meditation and that are extremely similiar to the 5 MeO experience, lead to states that are totally nondual infinite space and time have gone the identity left is NOTHING, really a empty nothing, a transparent witness without any properties. BUT with a very very subtle Individuality still left. And that is the problem. So, the last frontier, which is extremely(!) subtle, is still there: Individuality, the last remnants of a nearly invisible transparant witness/separate self. Roger Thisdells stage 4, Not Self: That is the stage where one works with the last remnants of a very very empty remaining separate-self. Impossible to describe in words. The last remnants of Individuality/Separate Self. This is what "Nonmeditation Yoga" of the Mahamudra System is cleaning up with, preparing for the Big Sudden Shift. After watching the video, watch his next video 5 of the series, True No Self. There is also a beautiful passage in Ken Wilbers "The Religion of Tomorrow: A Vision For The Future of the Great Traditions" on the transparent witness. Transparent Witness is a word not so perfectly fitting, because it can be already quite nondual. >Because from your description "not fully empty" doesn't resonate here. There isn't a separate self to be empty or not, it's only on the comedown when the separate self reassembles that the non-experience is re-contextualized into whatever the separate self deems worthy or valuable. I understand when you write "doesn't resonate here". It feels like you were totally rid of the separate self during 5 MeO. You can have a similiar feelings/impressions on the meditation path, see Roger Thisdells video and Frank Yang. But it is not fully gone. And one CAN NOT imagine what is still there. Why it is not fully empty. Because IT IS the lense/separate self/transparent witness (although already nondual) that one is still looking out from. And I will never be able to proove that to you, or describe what still remains. That is why Basis/Great/Final Enlightenment is sudden, as described before. If one would understand what hinders the Great Enlightenment before it actually happening, it would happen immediately. I can not proove that to you. But the fact that it goes away after the trip IS a very strong indication that not every aspect of the separate self was gone during the trip, because the Deep Identity Level Shift of Great Enlightenment DID NOT OCCUR. When you know what you are, you know what you are. Awake or not. There is a long "tradition" for example in Zen in differentiating between Enlightenment and Great Enlightenment. In other traditions also. In the firstly mentioned Enlightenment, one fully knows the nondual void/empty/mere appearance nature of the visual field, and that oneself is empty. But Bassui says for example: WHO is perceiving all of that. The Empty Void/Space can not perceive it. And Bassui says: "At work, at rest, never stop trying to realize who it is that hears. Even though your questioning penetrates the unconscious, you won’t find the one who hears, and all your efforts will come to naught. Yet sounds can be heard, so question yourself to an even profounder level. At last every vestige of self-awareness will disappear and you will feel like a cloudless sky. Within yourself you will find no “I,” nor will you discover anyone who hears. This Mind is like the void, yet it hasn’t a single spot that can be called empty. Do not mistake this state for Self-realization, but continue to ask yourself even more intensely, “Now who is it that hears?” If you bore and bore into this question, oblivious to anything else, even this feeling of voidness will vanish and you won’t be aware of anything—total darkness will prevail. [Don’t stop here, but] keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present." "Again, there are those who think that when one’s mental functions have ceased, leaving one like a decayed tree or cold stone, one has attained no-mindness; while still others maintain that in the practice of Zen a decisive point has been reached when one feels a deep void with awareness of neither inner nor outer, the entire body having become shining, transparent, and clear like a blue sky on a bright day. This last appears when the True-nature begins to manifest itself, but it cannot be called genuine Self-realization. Zen masters of old would call it the “deep pit of pseudo-emancipation.” " Andeven though all of you becomes one mass of questioning as you turn inward and intently search the very core of your being, you will find nothing that can be termed Mind or Essence. Yet should someone call your name, something from within will hear and respond. Find out this instant who it is! If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear [or any and all wrong identity/separate self structures/arisings get killed/transcended by ones True Being, Nothingness, the "ever-burning flame of your own primoridal nature". Deep complete Identity Level Shift, dropping the mistaken Identity of anything separate, however subtle, once and for all]. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free." The same thing that happens on the meditation path happens also on the psychedelic path. So luckily, there is a gentlemen who publicly comments on having done both: Frank Yang comments on the difference between 5 MeO (and what still remains in that), and what can be achieved by meditation. "so when i tried 5meo DMT (God Molecule) three years ago that was the last time i tried it DJing the whole universe i had a breakthrough of Absolute Infinity slash Emptiness slash _______ you can't describe it. three years later that state is right here right now when i perceive the world it's a 360 degrees boundless infinite hologram perceiving itself through One Sense Door there's not even a sense door "God's 0 Sense Door" and every single sensation both inside and outside there's no inside outside syncs up to (and is aware of) itself and it's been like that it's locked in for three months now nothing has changed nothing this is a state that isn't affected by any ..." And on getting rid of the last lenses/filters of the separate self, very subtle: " or imagine what this would be like and even if you take psychedelics when you're at 99 percent you're not going to get a glimpse of the full thing because you're gonna have an experience of enlightenment at 99 percent on psychedelics that's a different order than locking enlightenment and abiding in it permanently through the natural mind okay experience of enlightenment at 99 percent on psychedelics that's a different order than locking enlightenment and abiding in it permanently through the natural mind okay that's not even go to the people who are only maybe 1 percent or not even that, not even Stream Entry taking psychedelics and had a glimpse of god consciousness. You can't glimpse enlightenment because once you glimpse IT you're enlightened! Because enlightenment is not an experience that comes and goes that's why Jed Mckenna said you're either awake or you're not. You can't glimpse enlightenment because once you glimpse IT you're enlightened! That would also be my main point. Awake or not, to use the nice statement/metaphor from Inliytened1. To end with a personal oberservation: I know quite some contemporary people which are enlightened via mainly meditation. I know not single case of the pure or even mainly psychedelic path, where I would conclude that that case in enlightened. That doesn't mean it could not happen. Just that I am not aware of one. That also tells something about the likely statistics. I know . But some will resonate with it, and will read it. All I am doing is writing here because I enjoy it, and because the archive of posts generated would have been (at least for me) very valueable and useful some years ago... Selling Water by the River

I agree that there are states that are ineffable. For example experiencing a 6th dimension, and when going out of the trip forgetting it. Because a human mindstream can not "hold" the memory/understanding of a 6th dimension. Not really. One can play around with it in a mathematical way, but you can't apprehend a 6th dimensional object fully in this bardo/life. Maybe some freaks can, I can't. But the real deciding states for Realization/Enlightenment (not just exploring the Multiverse, or Subtle States getting a Neurotransmitter-Update to experience the 6th dimension, only to later forget all of that), are what Ken Wilber calls Causal and Nondual States. About these states (at least how to train them, how to progress towards their realization) can be talked/pointed to, and has been done quite efficiently in the past in certain traditions, see below. Causal States are based on the experience of the totally Empty Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness of ones mindstream, normally without visual field or not including it (Infinite Whiteout, Cessation, or somtimes defined as just fully understanding the totally empty groundlessness/impersonal/Nothingness of the essence of ones mindstream, which also works and to which the Mahamudra-system brings one very efficiently, see "Simultaneous Mind" and "mindfulness without activity and not taking to mind." in Pointing out the Great Way, see post above). Nondual States is seeing/realizing that Nothingness as the essence of the infinite nondual boundaryless Opening of Reality (including the visual field). In practice: staying in the "simultaneous mind" and "mindfulness without activity and not taking to mind." as defined in Pointing out the Great Way long enough will turn the visual field nondual with enough practice. Examining Reality in these states (and some proficiency in them) is necessary for understanding ones True Identity, the Nature of Reality itself, or Basis Enlightenment/Full Enlightenment. It is the "entry ticket" for starting to get what one really is. Little off-topic comment: Of course, some lucky ones (Ramana, Sri Anandamayi Ma, .... fill in the blanks) get these states and the resulting insights for free. Good Karma, genetic freaks of nature, whatever). But they still had some versions of these states, and their energetic components. And the resulting insights/understandings/realizations. If one gets Enlightenment fast, or easy, just an idea: Maybe one can't tell about the path if one jumped it, took "short-cuts", or took an airplane (causal&nondual states for free because karma/Endohuasca-system delivered the goodies without practice), while your fellow humans neither have an airplane nor can shortcut the path). One can very well talk about how to identify these states when they happen, and about the training ladder of the path towards these states. See, for example, the following excerpt: "Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown: PUTTING MEDITATIVE EXPERIENCE INTO WORDS A good deal of Western scholarship on religion assumes that mystical experience is ineffable. Mystical states are said to be so profound that they are indescribable. This view is wrong. Rechungpa, a contemporary of the great Tibetan saint Milarepa, wrote an extremely detailed work on all the changes that occur in the body and mind at the moment of enlightenment. The most striking feature of his Clear Wisdom Mandmudra is the extreme technical precision used to describe internal states. As a tradition, Tibetan Buddhism is perhaps unique in the level of technical precision used to describe meditation experience; there is nothing comparable in Western mystical literature [and in my perspective, nothing quite comparable anywhere else. Zen tended to burn the scriptures anyway, and the Theravada-system don't have quite the level of sophistication/literature/techniques, although they also have a lot going for them and apparently work (Daniel Ingram, Frank Yang, others)]. Western mysticism largely has been restricted to individual practitioners, small groups, or time-limited movements, wherein the mystics either didn't express their spiritual attainments in much detail, or expressed these attainments in idiosyncratic ways according to their unique realizations and cultural context. Tibetan Buddhism, in contrast, is a highly organized lineage tradition that has been around since the seventh century, with Indian roots that go back much further. The early oral tradition spawned a loose but extensive network of itinerate practitioners who shared or traded teachings and specific spiritual exercises. The monastic tradition beginning in the eleventh century was characterized by tightly organized, stable communities of large groups of meditators who engaged in continuous dialogues about meditative attainments. They developed an elaborate inner science of spiritual development. During this period the technical language for spiritual development became more consensual, technically sophisticated, and refined as standards for discussing attainments developed. This body of technical knowledge was transmitted from generation to generation until the present day. The central problem then for the Western reader in understanding spiritual development in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is not its alleged ineffability but the opposite: namely, understanding the vast and sophisticated technical language of internal meditative experience. This book is designed to give the reader a precise map of internal meditative states. " Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

No, that dream just happened. I didn't contemplate about that too much. Sure I did contemplate the topic, but I never had real problems with that. A bit yes, but not too much. Maybe because when that contemplation of "other" became a real existential topic, I was already practicing (and concentrated on) staying in boundless changeless limitless Awakened Awareness (infinite, nondual, mere appearance). When you are in that state, it doesn't freak you out that "others" don't really exist, but one can directly intuit that the same Impersonal Consciousness that Oneself and Reality really is, is also the substratum/essence (Nothingness/Consciousness) of their mindstream. You can intuit/feel their Illusion-arisings of I-feelings/I-thoughts of being something specific as being exactly(!) the same as the illusion arisings in ones own mindstream. The exact same mechanism how "others" fall for the illusion, as oneself does and did. Once one knows the structure/pattern/gestalt/essence of ones own Illusion separate self arisings, one sees them in "others", or other perspectives of the same consciousness. That doesn't cause shock, but limitless empathy. It is You (not the separate self, but the real you, Impersonal Consciousness, totally empty), litereally You looking through all eyes. That is the core and source of all empathy, but now without any filters and flowing freely, directly intuiting und knowing that it is You looking through all eyes. Then, where should the shock come from? All beings are children of the Real You, Impersonal Empty Consciousness (not a of separate self blown up to God-like proportions). Including what one formerly thought was "oneself". Only the separate self arisings/gestalt need "others" for love, validation, belongingness, self-esteem, the whole Maslow-Pyramid stage 1-4 up and down is made out of that. Couldn't be different to get a society going & surviving. Impersonal Consciousness and the bliss flowing from it doesn't need it. So it could make sense to transcend all of that already to a large degree before entering the terrain where there is no "other". The gentlemen who wrote "Enlightenment: Behind The Scenes, Leavitt" describes his final Enlightenment experience when he directly realized that he IS his daugther. Literally the same consciousness. Not as metaphor, but literally. Didn't cause a shock, but infinite love. Disclaimer (not written for you Breakingthewall): All of the above is only valid when one speaks from an Identity and mindstream of Impersonal Empty Consciousness, not from the perspective of a psychedelic boosted separate self (or even worse, not even having the psychedelic experience and just playing playing mind-games having watched some videos), blowing itself up to God-like dimensions and playing God. The entrance price for all of that is literally the transcendence/death of large or most parts of the separate self, and the final price is its complete demise/complete transcendence (transcendence of the separate self part, and then include the remaining functional character. Transcend and integrate, not transcend and disassociate, see Ken Wilber). Death/Transcendence not of the functional character/Ego, but of the separate self arisings. The main indicator for the separate self still being well, alive and active is narcissm, or self-grandiosity and self-importance. Preferably in the form of preaching from upon high. On the other side, that is not even a bad thing, because then every newbie with at least some intuition, common sense, and a not too narcisstic karma can spot that from a mile away. Instead of transcending/slowly annihilating the separate self, one boosts it up to God-like dimensions with doing that. Good luck ever transcending that! Doing something like that can destroy ones life. There have been cases like that, final station mental asylum or next life, or in the "best case" just a miserable unintegrated life full of suffering- end of disclaimer - I don't know if that view/frame helps. Maybe it is a nice exercise to feel deeply into the essence/consciousness of what you are, and then deeply into the consciousness/sentience of "another"? Its the same Nothingness/Consciousness. One can directly experience that (if oneself is completely empty, just pure impersonal consciousness). It is not philosophy or a nice idea, but a direct experience. But one has to be completely empty. The own lense of perception has to be completely empty of separate self arisings (=high speed cut off of any of these arisings before they grip/hypnotize oneself and elaborate fully, Trekchö-style. Needs familiarity, training and high-speed of attention/spotting, aka the goal of meditation. Please see my last decription-posting of the Pointing out the Great Way Mahamudra system, link below), only then one can intuit that. A colored lense with stains will not let that intuition/understanding pass. As second step, one can feel that essence of every appearance of the visual field as Nothingness, hovering as mere appearance in infinite Nothingness, at a certain point of practice Which is necessary at some point, because as Daniel Brown said: One can not understand the Totality/Wholeness from a partialized stance. Nonduality has to be there before that understanding. One has to literally become all phenomena appearing in the Infinite Boundless Changeless Awakened Awareness field (that is Nonduality), and then see what all of that is and who or what is aware of that. Then, at the end of the Road, Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness IS everything: Your Mindstream, the mindstream of others, the appearance of the world in the visual field, every though/feeling. Infinite, boundless, limitless, nondual all there ever could be. Everything that could ever appear appears in that, made out of that suchness/Nothingness/Consiousness as its essence. Then, one experiences/becomes/is... Home/safe/Indestructable/eternal: And that actually is not shocking. But if feels like one is at home, now and always, wherever you go in relative reality. No Fear: Somewhere in the Upanishads it says "Where there is other there is fear". If there is only oneself, which is indestructable (no moving parts, just Nothingness that can't disappear), there is no fear. Infinite Love: The recognition that there is no other in the whole kosmos, but only the suchness of ones being, bound together in a infinite nondual field of love Infinite Freedom: When the bliss/love of your own indestructable infinite true being flows, what could you ever want that you don't get, or ever be taken away from you? Total freedom. Then we have Eternal/Indestructable, Fearless, Love, and infinite Freedom. But before one gets there, the illusion-mechanism/Maya/Lila had to place some strong "illusion-protection-mechanisms" in front of these properties of the enlightened mindstream, because if it wouldn't scare the separates selves, who in his right mind wouldn't attach his own mindstream to these properties of the enlightened mindstream. And the strongest one is probably the need for "other" or "others", Maslow stage 1-4. Somehow I mostly fail to write short posts. Maybe I need to go to a training "Concise writing for Dummies" who went off the deep end of Emptiness... Selling Water by the River

I think you will be doing fine. There is nothing to loose but an illusion. >To let go everything is very difficult and scary. But don't ot let go, is a jail. I understand you very well. Several years ago, I had a dream. That was before deeper insights into reality happened. I died multiple times in that dream (literally, by falling, smashing, other funny stuff also), and the visual field went off, only a darkness suffused with light remained. Not the usual blackout (unaware of itself), but an infinite Nothingness suffused with light remained. That was a causal state (using Ken Wilbers terminology), which I later realized. A state quite near to Absolute Reality (meaning easy to intuit the properties of Absolute Reality. Absolute Reality is always here, but sometimes more easy to intuit), but not unaware like Deep Sleep. Nothing there, Infinite, but still somehow aware (suffused with light). That happened multiple times, and during one of the last deaths, I got a bit cocky, saying to myself something like "okaaay, now show me if I can really die. Lets do this again". Dream-Death, and again the same time this causal state of an infinite Nothingness suffused with light appeared. Then, again I died, this Nothingness suffused with light. No objects, no time. A few seconds or a vastly longer time, I couldn't tell. Timeless. It was the same timeless Always Here Mind that I intuited/realized later more clearer. Then I woke up to "real" life, again passing through this Infinite Nothingness suffused with light. What somehow went with all of that was somehow the fear of dying all those "Enlightenment" Deaths, of being Nothing at all, Impersonal, an infinite vast reality perceiving itself. When it began happening to become really more and more impersonal, like beyond my comfort zone, I was a bit shocked like "okay, impersonal? really? Not "myself", the character?" But soon I knew again and realized what would always remain, being that which could never not be there. Indestructable, totally empty, like "no-moving-parts". Eternal. But with the potential for sentience, and to become/manifest anything IT wanted. Independend if a Dinosaur, another human, an animal, or whatever else would manifest in my mindstream/perspective as subject in another illusion/Lila. I even became grateful when a dream appeared that was not lucid, like the fun/experience of having the chance to believe such an illusion again. That took away the fear of being less than lucid once more. So the after-glow of remembering that dream ended a phase pretty fast that could have been prolonged for sure. Nowadays, I am very thankful for that dream, although I only recognized its meaning, significance and effects much later, when significant parts of the separate self died, or rather got seen through for the illusions that they were. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Actually, I am in the lucky situation that I never will be needing to charge anything for the stuff I am selling. So technically, its not selling. More like annoying with meditation-propaganda... . And no, no rich parents Selling Water by the River is the title of a book and the statement of a Zen Master, meaning that when one is talking about meditation/Enlightenment, one is sneakely "selling" the people what they already have/are: "Water by the River". I went a bit over the top with the length of a posting I just made: In that, concerning the nature of thoughts: And maybe one more perspective: Thoughts are subtle objects, appearing and "moving" in you. WIth practice, a certain directionality/movement gets intuited, as strange as that sounds. Another subtle object is the mathmatical object of the square-root of minus 1, in mathematics called "i". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_unit You can never see it, but it exists, as mathematical object. If you ever had to do alternating current calculation using complex numbers like i, as yours truly had to do quite some time ago , the usefulness of "i" and other stuff becomes apparent pretty fast. So, "i" is real, but you can never see it. A subtle object. Can be understood, experienced, can be calculated with, has useful applications doing so in the "real" world. And you can never talk about i and doing the practical stuff with others who had the experience of understanding what i is. And sorry in advance, but I can't avoid doing that : For the all-is-imaginary-fanclub: Here you have "real" imagined numbers ("i"). Here it is completely technically correct to talk about "it is all imaginary". Because who in his right mind would be strange enough to define the imaginary number i, the impossible square root of minus 1. The only thing I am waiting for is for one of the "all-is-imaginary-fanclub" to actually start doing calculations in the imaginary unit and complex number plane, and then "correctly" saying: It is all imaginary. Sorry for the little disgression. So what is "i"? A subtle object, floating in you like a thought. "i" is an object, some thoughts of you are already an object you can work with. Some are not, you look through them like a lense, a subjective arising. Meditation is making all (I-)thoughts and I-feelings also to objects you see moving within yourself. They move in you, but you are (not only) them.... If you know the nature of thoughts fully (their essence is Nothingness, or Infinite Empty Impersonal Consciousness), you would be enlightened and know and understand the true Nature both of yourself and Reality. The essence or nature of any appearance in the visual field can also be directly apprehended as the same Nothingness, the same Suchness of Reality. So it is well worth it... Selling Water by the River

Hi Ayham, I remember that very well. Facing everything the separate-self can throw at you head on.... And it can throw a lot... Maya is not letting one off the hook easily... The Game-Changer for me was the book "Pointing Out the Great Way, Daniel Brown". At least for me personally, 95% of the meditation system out there would have never worked for me. They would have been too unpleasant, or needing more much willpower. Or I would have get stuck in the several traps there are, where ones practice can "bottom out", and lead nowhere.... So I can not highly enough express my gratitude for the heroic pioneering effort of Daniel Brown translating all these books, and getting the (in my opinion) most sophisticated meditation system of the planet to the West. It has been practiced and refined for hundreds of years, developed further, elaborated in hundreds of Tibetan Books, producing a steady stream if deeply enlightened beings. It achieves a precision of technical vocabulary in the stage decriptions of evolving meditation, meditation experiences, resulting understandings and insights about ones mindstream and Reality emerging at different stages like nothing I have ever seen, and I studied more or less all major meditation systems, reading a few hundreds of books. The book is several hundreds of pages. It lead to me awe and deep respect of the Mahamudra-System when realizing at certain stages that I just had experienced the exact same flow of meditation experiences and understandings/insights than Tibetan meditators hundreds of years ago. Of course I can't summarize a few hundred pages of the book with the musings below. But I try to give a first taste of the system, with some personal experiences with it, and how it all developed for me, just to show off how great and oh so wonderful I am . No, just kidding... Because I would have loved to have had something like a"user experience" with certain meditation systems like that 15 years ago, to get a feeling for a certain path, and the experiences others are having with it. Concentrative Meditation: I would recommend starting with concentrative meditation, the Elephant Path (all Tibetan schools use it). There are several stages of concentrative meditation that must be mastered, and tools learned doing it. They are very well described in Pointing out the Great Way, and "The Elephant Path: Attention Development and Training in Children and Adolescents", in the chapter of Daniel Brown. Here is explicitely stated what one learnes while learning concentrative meditation. By the way, that system is in my humble oinion more sophisticated than Zen or Vipassana, because it includes techniques like easing up and intensifying. That is essential for making it efficient, and these techniques are just not there in Vipassana and Zen. These aspects (easing up and intensifying) one learns there by conincidence, or not at all. In the beginning, you don't stay long on the meditation object (breath, stone, candle, not so important), but just catch yourself when you have wandered off, your monkey mind taking you on a ride and elaborating something else. Now: Don't put negative reaction/feedback on that, but move attention/focus back. You can only control focus/attention, you can't force what thoughts emerge. So meditation is always moving attention back from wandering off, and the more you do that, the more pliant the mind becomes: Less wandering off, and if wandered off much faster to move it back. And when that goes quite well with a little bit less wandering off or loosing attention. Then, when its more automatic, you "ease up", which means you use less energy and focus, and see if you can stay on the object. If yes, good: Ease Up. Easing Up brings more clarity to what else goes on in the mindstream. Which lets you notice more of the subtler arisings of the mindstream emerging. When you drift off more than, then intensify: Inhale strongly, increase focus, energize. And see then if you stay more on the object. If you do, ease up. Find the optimum energy balance you need to stay on the object. One balances easing up and intensifying then.... Then your clarity will increase, your energy will become nice, joy can start to arise. And then you do that for a few months, a year.... Meditation Experiences of Clarity, Lucidity, Bliss and Non-conceptuality (silent mind) can occur, but also go again. They are just experiences passing in you. This way, you train your focus and make your mind pliant. When you can stay on the objects for a few minutes without totally getting lost in elaborated thoughts, and keep some focus on the object while wandering off in thought a bit, you have partial staying.... at some point you have pretty good staying on the object for a few minutes. Meditation without an object: Then comes a big change, that you can start doing then: Change to the Mindstream of thoughts itself as meditation object. And try to stay mindful of the mind watching that mindstream. If you can keep doing that (which takes a long time), you can start taking the meditation into daily life. Investigating the Nature of thoughts: See Pointing Out the Great Way for that. Thoughts are no different than consciousness, which is empty/nothing, yet has clarity/awareness, so its not a nothing at all. If you look into a thought, you don't find it, it disappears. Is cut off. One can never see or find a thought. Looking into a thought, an experience of un-findability arises. Empty, nothing specific. But with clear alert awareness of consciousness. Empty and aware. Nothingness, yet something that is not nothing. Nothingness. Emptiness. Consciousness. And more important: When really looking into the nature of a thought, it evaporates. Is cut off. Disappears. Reveals its nature of emptiness. With exactly that phenomenon is worked in the "Skill of Recognition", see below. Doesn't that effect appear as very useful to get thoughts and the mindstream under control? Of course! That effect of the thought evaporating, revealing its nature as Nothingness/Consciousness when looking into it, and generalizing that oberservation and understanding on the whole mindstream and all events it contains and can contain. That is understanding the continuum of the mindstream. The nature of thoughts. You don't control the thoughts which arise, that is why you/the person is also empty, a concept. Because what are you, if you don't even control your thoughts, and what thoughts arise? After having mastered Concentrative meditation, and having understood (contemplation) the nature of thoughts as consciousness/awareness/emptiness/suchness/Nothingness, you can put that into practice: Skill of Recognition: (1. Yoga of Mahamudra system) Now it gets interesting. That was the decisivepoint for me once I understood that, and implemented it. Afterwards, it started to get nondual pretty soon... If you look HOW the thoughts emerge, (1) out of what they emerge, (2) what they are, (3) in what they move (4) into what they disappear ALL of that (1)(2)(3)(4) must be present. Thoughts DO appear. From "something". Stay in "something". Consisting of "something" All of that is Emptiness, or Consciousness, or Nothingness. Thoughts are made of "that","move in that", "dissolve into that". and you will never SEE that, or can say what it is. Nothing. But not a blank nothing. An aware Nothing. Actually the essence of all world-appearances, but that comes later, when it gets nondual, at the Yoga of One Taste. What happens if you investigate into emerging thoughts this way, is that they get FASTER. VERY FAST. Like 20-30 emergent thoughts/feeling arisings per second, most of them rudimentary. The mind does this to keep the illusion going. To make it too fast for you. But at some point, you learned to get that fast also... Basically, looking into a thought, one sees its Emptiness/Nothingness (one doesn't find the thought, it evaporates). It is cut off. Dzogchen calls this cutting off "Trekchö". Daniel Brown called this stage a "High Speed Search Task into the unfindability of the nature of thoughts". A High Speed Search task into their emptiness, into their nature as consciousness, as Nothingness. So the emerging gets fast, very fast. Daniel Ingram also mentions that. But at some point, with enough practice and familiarity, YOU get faster. You spot and cut off every very fast, subtle, fragmentary thought arising. None of them "grips" you anymore, since you have seen them all, and their structure. Just thoughts arising very fast. You don't control which thoughts arise. Depended origination, they are just emerging by themselves. You can focus on just their arising (of thoughts), just their staying, just their going away. At some point, they just emerge, looking into their nature is automatic, and they immediately dissolve. No duration. Just emergence, and poof gone. And when you are fast enough, you get a continuance of staying mindful. When that happens its pretty clear what happened. Your attention got so fast that you can stay mindful even through the high-speed thought emergence. At the end, they come very fast, they don't get "elaborated out". Thinking, or elaborating the thoughts out, is slower than their emergence. They emerge already fully complete with their content, and then slowly get "talked/elaborated" in your mind. Natural reaction: So WHO the f*** am I (pardon my french) when I don't control what thoughts emerge and if they appear fully with their content in a fraction of a second, and get elaborated later in a hypnotic show over several second? good question... to be answered later. Outcome is: You know the nature of every possible thought (Consciousness-Emptiness-Nothingness), of the whole mental-continuum of thoughts, all that there can be. Their nature. you can cut off or transcend/just watch your normal mindstream in most daily situations without getting caught up/hypnotized by it, which already here leads to a lot of bliss. Not sufficient bliss to get ones separate self completely handled, but already quite wonderful. That is the start of real freedom. You know how your mindstream hypnotizes you, and gets faster when you actually look into each thought arising and its nature. At some point you get fast enough to cut off every arising, or let it elaborate in a controlled aka mindful way. Yoga of Unelaboration (2. Yoga of Mahamudra-System) Here, you finish off with time. You open up the eternal always here mind. Past and future become deeply understood as imagined/manifested right here and now, not really existing. Only the eternal now exists. Not as idea, as concept, as understanding, but as felt and lived reality. Deeply realized. Always Here. Eternal. How ones True Being can be immortal/eternal/always here becomes a very real possibility here. Later on, the emerging possibility "of how that could work" become validated beyond any possible doubt. Pointing Out the Great Way: "From where does the first mind-moment [the thought-arising] arise? Then, where does it stay? Finally, where does it go when it stops? The "mind" in which all this is happening is Always Here. Always Here Mind. Time is not "out there", self-existing. You only notice time because of change, of emerging thoughts and appearances. time is a mere construct/concept. No change of appearances/thoughts, no time. "One" doesn't control the content of the emergent thoughts "Through dependent origination certain propensities [thought capsules with their full content already "inside" emerge] at the very subtle level ripen into subtle movements within the temporal mental continuum, which in turn become constructed into and elaborated as coarse-level thoughts [get elaborated into long thoughts that get told in awareness over several seconds] and appearances" dependend origination: "one" doesn't control which thoughts emerge. "The skilled meditator can view events transforming from very subtle propensities to specific subtle mind-moments and constructed coarse thoughts and appearances seeming to arise and pass in the temporal mental continuum through a process of dependent origination" Seeing and understanding the emergence of the thoughts (fully formed out with all their content, but not yet elaborated in the mindstream, emerging in the Always Here Mind), and seeing this in real-time because ones attention got fast enough, is a game-changer. That stage is very hard to fully understand in Pointing Out the Great Way. At least for me, it took me a long time. . I would have been faster with coaching.... Yoga of One Taste (3. Yoga of Mahamudra System) So here it gets nondual and mere appearance, floating in Nothingness. No more a solid and external/duality reality "out there" anymore. But an infinite limitless field of Infinite Consciousness, manifesting an appearing world of mere appearances arising in it. A loving blissful boundless timeless field of bright lucid Awakened Awareness. This is where probably (my pet-theory) the Endohuasca-System starts working. https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ The practice is basically taking the insights of stage 2 and putting them into practice, specifically also in daily everyday life. With that, one gets enough time and momentum in meditation to really make the difference, to get it nondual. To make all that with sitting meditation on the pillow, at least for me it would have been a full-time job. And I did a demanding career and some other stuff in the meantime also... The view taken all thoughts/mental events emerge in the Always Here Mind, or Simultaneous Mind (which means nondual). same with all world appearances. The essence of all thoughts is emptiness/consciousness, and the essence of all visual field appearances is also emptiness/appearance/consciousness. That is called the "One Taste" of every arising (thought or world-appearance). Nondual in other words. and being aware of the emerging high-speed stream of thoughts emerging already with full content, but getting elaborated in the seconds following, and cutting off most of the emergent thoughts by looking into their nature, which has been automized by this point enough clarity and mindfulness is generated that at some point The Visual Field/"world": Becomes mere appearance and infinite/limitless becomes mere appearance appearances 1) the world no longer feels "out-there". Everything arising just arises in oneself. 2) appearances loose their solidity. One can not tell if they are solid "objects" out there, or just appearances happening in the timeless Always-Here-Mind 3) At some point later, with a lot of meditation-mindfulness-momentum, the "inside" feeling as pure empty awareness, a very transparent witness, but not even that because the awareness is no longer separate: the visual field becomes really mere appearance. One looks at something, and its just appearance hovering in Nothingness. You feel into it, and its essence is the same as the indescripbable Nothingness behind ones head. luminous mere appearances, very similiar to trip-descriptions. the limit of the visual field, and the wondering of "what is behind it", become limitless or infinite there is "nothing" behind it. One just imagines a border/boundary of the visual field one imagines that something must be behind it (like 3D-Space continues". No, 3D-space is imagined in dimensionless Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness. 3D-Space is not self-existing, dangling out there. That was a biggie for me, took a long time to get, and could have been much faster with coaching. Guess I am quite a visual person Time is gone. Timeless Everything can only happen here, and now Past is imagined here and now , future also here and now the "subject"/"me", the separate self Gestalt/arisings, feeling and being separate from the whole Reality, slowly gets transcended and dissolves, more and more aspects of the person/separate self are seen as arisings moving within oneself. finally, after a long path of transcending every identity/I-thought/I-feeling of the Ego/Body-Mind/character, it becomes a transparent witness, nothing but still something witnessing the visual field. At some point, One can't tell AT ALL what one is, nothing positive is left. I am not the body/person, anything. Only aware Emptiness. But somehow some murky Witness or something like that still there. One literally doesn't know what one is, besides the nondual field... One becomes the visual field of mere appearance, one is that in a nondual way. any sense of location or center slowly dissolves. One becomes the whole boundless timeless field of mere empty, groundless appearance. Sometimes lucid and shimmering, like mere appearance. Some traditions call that already Enlightenment, or Kensho/Satori/Awakening. And it is in some way. But Nonduality is not already Full or Great Enlightenment, where there is absolutely no doubt about ones nature, and the nature of reality. That can become clear like ice-cold water thrown in ones face. Nonduality can be very well experienced by a separate self, just try some psychedelics.... To reach Nonduality sobre without psychdelics, one already has to be quite empty or transcended the separate self, but not necessarily (and normally) fully. With psychedelics, you don't need to empty (or have transcended the separate self) at all. 5 MeO will do that for, even if you don't want. Not fully empty, not the last step (no traces of Individuality/transparent witness left, see above), but very very much. that brings us to the last stage, Stage 4 of the Mahamudra System, the Yoga of Nonmeditation. And here is where meditation, and the long time it enables in these very empty states of dissolving every last speck of individuality/last very subtle separate self arisings/last very subtle illusions, becomes paramount. Only this 4. stage enables the final crossing over to fully, without a doubt, knowing what Ones True Self, and Reality, really is. Without that, suffering, grasping for ever more Awakenings, and still being a bit "gaslighting-ability" of the finality of ones realization/awakening, continues. Yoga of Nonmeditation (4. Yoga of Mahamudra System) What is already the case, from stage 3 Yoga of One Taste: The visual field/world already arises in the Always Here Mind as mere groundless luminous appearance, with Nothingness as its essence in an infinite limitless field of Awareness Space in the timeless Always Here Mind so many ingredients of the True State of Things, ones True Identity as Boundless Changeless Timeless Reality are already in place. That is already very lovely, filled mostly with bliss. Like really really nice. But not fully the Unshakeable Unchanging Reality that one intuits to really be, with its Infinite Love, Peace and Bliss. Only one thing is still missing for conforming fully to the enlightened mindstream, and fully crossing over to it with the sudden recognition of ones True Identity, Reality itself, Absolute Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, Nothingness. and that is the last remants of the Empty/Transparent Witness, or what Brown calls artifical activity. The last remnants of individuality, of I-feeling, I-thoughts arising in oneself. The last aspects of being a bit separate from Reality itself, from being not fully empty/transcended. A very subtle transparent witness, already being nondual, identifying with an infinite nondual field. Bassui (Zen, in Three Pillars of Zen) calls this Awareness of Emptiness, or Awareness of Beingness. A very subtle feeling of still being aware of SOMETHING, even if that is infinite Nonduality. Not full and complete nonduality and oneness. Still a subtle (very subtle) separate self aware of the Totality. Not the Totality being fully aware of itself, like in perceptions perceiving themselves. One can do NOTHING here to cross over to Full Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment. Because that would be an act of a separate self. An effort. A movement of a separate self WANTING something, manipulating the mindstream, grasping for the understanding, doing something.... One can only automize the meditation/mindfullness, staying fully present, letting the Awakened Impersonal Awareness flow by itself, let IT do the meditation itself, get out of the way... Bringing out the full force of this Utterly Impersonal Awakened Awareness. Ones True Identity. And that is the last contra-intuitive trap: ONE CAN'T FORCE IT ("artifical activity"). Because forcing it would be a separate self arising doing it. One can try to force it (for example Koan-style), but then the Crossing Over normally happens in a moment of grace, of relaxation, when artificial activity is not present. And once the last very subtle remnants of the separate self are seen as moving within oneself, just changing and temporary arisings/movements consisting of I-thoughts and I-feelings, the last subtle lenses ("Individuality,separateness") are recognized and dropped/transcended/no longer believed and just cut off/let go/Trekchö-style. All and any center gone, no separate anything remaining anywhere, forcing its claws of suffering into the natural bliss of Enlightened Infinite Nondual Empty Reality itself, perceptions perceiving themselves, shimmering in Infinite Always here Nothingness, in Infinite Nondual Consciousness. The Universal Mind, Nothingness. Realizing that nothing is lost if the separate self illusion is realized and seen as that what it really is, and always was: Just appearances happening and moving within the Always Here True Self/Reality. All that is lost is an illusion, what is gained is Reality itself and its inherent bliss. And indeed welcome home, to a home you never left, on a journey that never really happened.... Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River PS: By the way, that is not a nice theory and beautiful claims, but a path actually walked over many years (although because of lacking coaching and not being too smart sometimes from my side making it take longer than actually needed). But I am still very very thankful that I picked that path, and not 10-15 years face against the wall Zen-monastery Koan-style. That would have also maybe worked (but I don't know, that system has many pitfalls the Tibetans have identified and made maps for to avoid these), but would have been much less pleasant, at least for me. Would have felt like digging a hole with a shovel instead with a climatized excavator, doing most of the meditation in daily life instead of some hardcore-monastery-fulltime-environment. So I can understand all those that don't like meditation, because it is maybe the hardest thing one can actually do, depending on the system. Give this system a try! PSPS: Before one maybe starts thinking that nothing matters, and Karma is just an Illusion, since Individuality and everything else is an illusion anyways, and nothing matters, like ethics, common sense, Karma, compassion and so on: Be sure that reality will give you a crosscheck if that is really the case, or just a funny idea/concept. And then let's see if suffering hurts and grips, or is still just considered an Illusion. Compassion and Boddhichitta for all beings (which are nothing but the same One Reality without a second) actually is a pretty hard entrance criteria to any of these states decribed above. With honest and practiced compassion/ethics/Boddhichitta, one has the support from all of Infinite Reality on ones path. And how much intuition and intelligence emerges in ones mindstream is guided only by this One Infinitely Intelligent Reality without a second.

DMT Quest has made two books and several fascinating videos. https://dmtquest.org/questions-for-the-lion-tamer-1/ and It is really fascinating stuff, that can explain a lot of other phenomena in an integral way. Among other things, they postulate that the Endohuasca-system is triggered by a) Meditation https://dmtquest.org/meditation-hypnosis/ Get Gamma-frequency of the brain up, and the endohuasca-system probably starts flowing.... In Ken Wilbers system, subjective states (Upper Left Quadrant) have correlates in the body (Upper Right Quadrant), and vice-versa. Causing positive feedback-loops, increasing lucidity and nonduality, bliss and so on. The transformation of the whole self/identity, in stages, making states permanent.... Principle: States are free, stages are earned. When the mindstream conforms to the requirements of these systems, stabilizing and enlightened mind-stream. Daniel Brown did a study with his "Pointing out the Great Way" students and a advanced Brainscanner. Result: Gamma-waves boosted to the max.... Maybe helps to take transforming the baseline state via meditation to "trippy"-levels more serious... b) Dark Retreat (The Tibetans do it for 100s of years, several other tribes do it, tends to induce visions. Some kind melatonin-pineal-gland.connection). c) Special Breathing (Wim Hoefer, Holotropic Breathing, Tummo, ...) d) Other stuff (Near Death experiences, cancer in certain areas of the brain (pineal gland), Kundalini, ...). trigger the body-endohuasca-system. Some meditation-states, especially advanced ones once stabilized in daily life (post-samadhi), or hardcore pillow-meditation-states, are quite "trippy" and (1) change the visual field towards "not external/nondual", "lucid,vivid,bright, groundless mere appearance, Nothingness as its essence, "hovering" in Infinite Nothingness". (2) kill the localization sensation of being in the body, making one no longer localized in the infinite field, but being the unbounded wholeness of Reality. (3) And bliss. Ken Wilbers once linked that drug addicts of Heroin get previews to the bliss of certain meditative states, and of course get addicted to that. Although I have never tried Heroin and am not so stupid to try, in my experience I can confirm (1) (2) and (3). And having these states in place, it becomes possible to intuit and realize what is aware of the whole Enchilada, being also its essence: Nothingness. Perceptions perceiving themselves. Ones True Identity. There are definitely bodily/energetic/chemical changes going on in these transformations or stabilizing these states as stages. The two books are actually a good reading for everyone belittling meditation and the permanent and deep transformations possible (@Breakingthewall, I know you don't and are open. I just write in general, as always). The states induced by psychedelics that are ripping ones heart open to Infinite Love, bathing ones sould and being in heavenly bliss, and opening the separate self contraction to the Infinite, are also available to the body by endogenous means. Or else, how would the stereotypical enlightened one with a halo depicted around the head "oozing" bliss "work"? Auto-Suggestion? The receptors in the body are there anyway, else psychedelics wouldn't work. Just add a system where an enlightened mindstream (empty, fast enough to spot separate-self-arisings, very high Gamma/Delta-waves/meditation states) triggers the body-Endohuasca-system, and one has hypothesized a possible mechanism growing and transforming baseline-consciousness to the Infinite. A system that could explain the manifestation of the potential of the human being, ranging from atom-molecule-animal-primate-human to Infinite Being/True Identity, ACTUALIZED on a permanent and stable basis. Certainly not boosting trippy states to the " stratosphere" where one can no longer "walk straight", but a lovely way to life ones life... ACTUALIZED sounds (at least to me) more like: Realized ones potential, like in "permanently". Not only for the trip, and then again with the next trip... That would be "actualized temporarily...." And of course "Exo"-Huasca of course also works.... Selling Water by the River

Razard86, in my humble opinion, you didn't answer the question of OBEler. But maybe OBEler got it, and I didn't. The other beings/perspectives don't collapse or end when you or OBEler (or I) die/end. Indras Net and Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness (which we really are, already now, we just "forget" all other perspectives/beings) will continue fine without all of "us". To think it all ends if a certain perspective is switched off is solipsistic madness. Thinking the Totality stops when one separate perspective is shut off... Its like looking a bit too deep into the pond like Narcissus did, and boosting it with the power of an Infinity of Gods. Don't you intuit that the exactly same consciousness/Nothingness that you are is every other being? When I look at other beings, I intuit the same consciousness that I really am (and every being is). Their mindstream arisings arise in that Nothingness/Consciousness exactly as in mine. There is no difference. That Nothingness is the essence of everything, all perspectives, every appearance in Reality. Nondual, infinite Nothingness, Reality itself. The same Nothingness/Consciousness that we all are can continue very well without you and me, and anybody else. It can't go anywhere. "It" is already everyhting, everyone, infinite and total. You only get problems with answering these questions if you confuse Totally Empty Consciousness/Nothingness with something not so empty. Like a totally empty separate self/witness, with some individuality still left, hovering in a nondual field. Especially easy to get there with psychedelics. Or even worse: "Thinking" ones way there, watching one Youtube-video or two too many... Going down that road, one has to use construct funny concepts like Infinity of Gods (very nondual indeed), and other Solipsistic funny stuff, making space for a separate self blown up to God-like proportions. The funny thing with Solipsism is: If you proclaim you are the only one having a sentient perspective, every one else having also sentience and consciousness knows that you are, well, a bit nuts... Probably this here is peak solipsistic/Infinity-of-Gods madness. The top level to where you can drive a still separate self Gestalt, proclaiming it is God and that there are an Infinity of other Gods. But hey, what do I know.... And now please throw some arguments from the Absolute Side of the Street at me Bon Voyage Water by the River

Lets take Ken Wilber take on that, on which I agree: The Ego as functional character handling daily life stays. The enlightened ones have strong egos, and left their mark on the world. They knew/know what they really are. Hard to shake that first-hand-knowledge of ones True Identity, so they are not easily scared away. The separate-self-arisings/Gestalt/structure: What goes in True Self Realization are the separate-self-arisings, or the exclusive identifying with the character ....even if the separate-self remaining is its only an empty witness-anything basking in Nonduality, but with some subtle Individuality (=separateness) still intact - The usual psychedelic hang-over separate-self-identity still haunting a not so selfless/empty mindstream). The separate self arisings as "identity" are then replaced by being Reality itself, CONTAINING a hopefully functional character/Ego. The separate self is dead after realizing ones True Deep Identity. Literally. If its not dead, its not Full Enlightenment. Why? True Identity=Nothingness, manfesting Reality/Totality and being its essence, nondual and infinite. But nothing specific you can point to. Perceptions perceiving themselves. The separate self arisings, including one of its main components/building blocks, NARCISSM/self-grandiosity, get killed/transcended/no longer believed/cut off/seen as fake illusion objects moving in oneself, and discarded on that Deep Identity Shift of Full Enlightenment.... ... Not the functional character (which some also call Ego). One doesn't get stupid and cuts that off, and remains a stumbling nutcase ever after.... Problem with the term Ego often is: Ego=functional character arisings PLUS separate self arisings. Because our society fuses these two Gestalt-structures as one, because it doesn't know any better and doesn't have much examples to the contrary. ... because the separate self arisings (and especially NARCISSM/self-grandiosity) are recognized as being actually one of the largest defense-block against the realization of ones True Identity, Nothingness/Reality. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Very True. The concept "everything is just imagination" doesn't help one a bit if the suffering of the separate self still "grips" and is not transcended on a stable basis. And it grips/holds until Full Enlightenment, to varying degrees. And Karma, or cause & effect, or the consistence of this Bardo/Life, is very very high in this life/bardo/incarnation, compared for example to a dream. If you "shoot yourself in the knee"-Karma-wise (or literally), it will be with you for the rest of ones life.... Not like in the dream, where the wound is gone when you wake up. And if one goes fully from the relative side of the street to the absolute side of the street: When all is imagined, or better said a manifestation of the One Reality without a second (its not imagined by a separate/self ego, or one of the infinite perspectives in Indras Net, but by the Whole Reality/Nothingness), there is no difference between "real" or "imagined". One doesn't need to classify it with the concept "imagined" vs. the concept "real/self-existing". It just is. Appearing in The One Reality without a second. And it all follows certain patterns, or Karma, cause and effect, at least in this world/Lila. So what is the point labeling it "imagined", if one is clearly still in the claws of Karma/suffing and separate self? Other than spiritual bypassing? What is the benefit? As long as one suffers, it appears as very real.... or who would suffer if "its only imagined". And telling somebody who suffers "hey, its only imagined, believe me and you can stop suffering now".... yeah, works great, shows a lot of empathy and compassion, and helps the poor sould for sure a lot... The Tibetans are in this business for 1000 years+. They have seen a lot of mis-use of jargon from Enlightened Ones misused by not-so-enlightened-ones. And the outcome of that have been for example statements like this: "Although my view is higher than the sky, my respect for the cause and effect of actions [or Karma] is as fine as grains of flour." - Padmasambhava There is a lot of wisdom in that quote... Water by the River

Yes, very good point you write. And very important. Steven Wolinsky has once said and written: An experience of the Absolute is just that: An experience of the Absolute. It is not the Absolute itself, which is the True You/Reality. But an experience that the True You/Reality is having. In Itself, in the Infinite Groundless Totality of Infinite Consciousness/Reality. In Nothingness, as Halaw (God is Nothingness) calls it, to avoid any "positive" property being attached to the Absolute. Which is infinite, which is another word for "no positive quality at all besides being Reality itself", or: Nothingness. IT contains all possible infinite qualities. If the True You is Nothingness/Absolute/Reality, then when "Infinite Consciousness" tries "to look back over its shoulder" so to say (which it really can't, because IT is everything/the Totality), and experience OF NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS arises. And paradoxically that experience arises IN the infinite Reality that one is. But that "experience of the Absolute/True You" that can be induced by looking into the Absolute Empty Abyss/Nothingness that one really is IS not true You. Because its an experience of the Emptiness/Nothingness/Absolute that one truly is. But doing that often enough "drives the point" home, making One understand that One is really totally empty, Nothing or Nothingness at all, and with that including everything. Reality. Facilitating the Deep Identity Level Shift towards Nothingness/Reality itself, making ones mindstream conform more to the enlightened mindstream. Here, it gets quite paradoxical (but its totally logical once experienced/understood), and couldn't be different. Nice metaphor of Massaro: The Water-Pistol imagined in Infinite Nothingness. Imagine an infinite vast nothingness, nothing there at all. Infinite. Boundaryless. No change happening, so no time. Nothingness initially not aware of itself, but with the potential for sentience/being aware of arisings manifested/imagined in itself. Then, a Water-Pistol is imagined: One suddenly has object, subject, limitations, imagined appearances, a you looking at the water pistol. And if that water-pistol moves: time and change. And if it disappears, Nothingness again. Like in Deep Sleep, unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience and subject-object, if the water-pistol reappears again. If the water-pistol is not there: Infinite Consciousness again in its totally empty version (which is always here anyway, Infinite Reality itself), like before your parents were born. Buddhist systems somtimes uses that example/metaphor in a variation: The dreamer and the dream. The dream also happens/appears in True You. Similiar to the dream happening in the dreamer, being made of the "sustance" of the dreamer, or being imagined by it. Both examples (looking back over its should, and Water pistol) are not the "real thing", but nice approximations that helped me a lot to silence the mindstream, make it rest in its true nature.... And having the right view (like described above and the previous post) boosts the cycle of (or prevents it getting stuck) meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality, -> meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality and so .... ... until at some point the mindstream conforms to the real state of Reality, and Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment can happen, which is a sudden, clear, deep final shift of Ones Identity towards ever having been Infinite Reality itself, never possibly could be anything different, throwing out any and all mistaken separate self-identity-arisings/I-thoughts/I-feelings (or understanding their illusory nature when they arise in oneself in real-time, and transcending/seeing them as objects moving in oneself, and watching them elaborate/arise, or just cutting them off). Nice thing is: It is un-gaslight-able. Why? Because the gaslighting would occur in what? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Also, there are not stages to go further. Because where would they occur? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Some interesting and beautiful stuff/manifestation/its mechanisms of Infinite Reality, or rather its manifested side, the wonderful Multiverse can still be explored and celebrated, but: why allow any negative "grasping stress" arising in oneself for the experience (temporary by definition!) of more understanding/awakening to the next n+1 experience of understanding or experiencing more of the infinite possible worlds/experiences of this wonderful show? Hint: God/Reality "itself" will continue to explore the infinity of infinities of the manifested "side" of Reality forever and ever and ever.... That (Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment) can happen when all world-appearances is seen as mere imagined appearance happening/"floating" in the groundless Nothingness/True You/Reality, and all "subjective" separate-self arisings are seen as mistaken identity arisings in oneself, getting replaced by the True Deep Identity of Infinite, Groundless, Totally Empty and mere appearance Absolute Reality itself). And then, welcome home to a home you never really left. Concluding the journey that never really happened. Only appeared to do so. that includes at that stage ending trying to force it (because it has to be automized without a separate-self-I "doing" them, because who/what could try to force it? Well, the separate self. Which would re-enforce it again). Tricky until the end... with best regards from Maya The paradoxes of that advanged stage are described by the way very nicely in Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra system, preferably descibed in "Pointing out the Great Way, Brown". Please excuse my long musings... Hope nobody feels lectured too much. Selling Water by the River

And since the True Oneself is still there (by definition) in such empty "horror" states (no observer/subject/witness, or "death without end" as you call it), what one thought one was before is just an appearance/arising/illusion/FAKE. What One really is is perceptions perceiving themselves, nondual, no self with any quality left besides just pure empty awareness watching its own arisings, totally nondual, perceptions perceiving themselves. Also: Since "one" is still there in these observerless-death-horror-states, apparently what has dropped away was some sort of temporary illusion, by definition. So its some sort of Illusion-death-horror-experience, because one is apparently still there to tell about it, and to experience it. That is where the "permanent" or "always here/never not not right here" aspect of ones True Identity becomes useful to identify illusion/temporary arising, and the real (No-)Thing. Steven Norquist describes that like a nice Horror-novel: "Haunted Universe: The True Knowledge of Enlightenment ". When you had enough time in these states, the scary/horror part drops away totally, and is replaced by the bliss of these nondual and empty states. Which is then very(!) lovely. One has a human/ego, contained within Oneself, arising in Oneself, but is no longer only that. One is the Whole Thing, and ever has been. The initial "Horror-Reaction" depends on the speed of being dropped into that Nondual Empty Totality. Psychedelics deliver probably the fastest "drop". When it happens slowly and gradually, there isn't too much Horror in some cases, maybe some scary moments (that is me?!?. But what about "real" me??? . Oh, its the other way round... ), but one gets used to that. All that is lost is an Illusion. What is gained is a Deep Identity Shift, fixing the former mistaken identity/illusion of the separate self-Gestalt-arisings, into becoming the "Whole Thing/Reality itself", and even more important: Into being eternal/invincible (no moving parts anymore that can be hurt or disintegrate, nothing that can get destroyed or even change), into being the whole Reality being able to manifest/imagine anything wanted in Itself, being made of Itself... A total Freedom, because one will never suffer since no psychological suffering arisings will ever "grip" again (at least not in this life, if the brain doesn't disintegrate like Alzheimer and so on) a total Fullness because the Love/Fullfillment/bliss freely flowes from ones Core, and a total freedom from fear, because even if in future reincarnations/shows, the Illusion of separate self-arisings will arise again, it will not affect ones true core, infinite absolute Nothingness/Reality. and probably a certain momentum/Karma of being pulled to get there again in the next play/show/life/reincarnation, if one is inclined into believing something like that. But hey, maybe being a dinosaur next time is more fun, so I am flexible on the concept of reincarnation/Karma and so on.... The Real Me will always be there, can't be not there.... The following quite is like a mathematically precise short definition of the real state of things, that deep Identity Shift of Enlightenment: "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche But the dropping of that Illusion is "protected" by Maya/Lila with the strongest Horror-arisings there can be..... The Horror of being NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS. That experience is like the Wizard of Oz: Appears to be scary, but doesn't really exist. It also only just arises. Funny construction, hm? Selling Water by the River PS: I am not belittling the Horror-Death-reaction described. It is exactly that, but on the next step/steps it becomes clear it has always been like that, and only an illusion dropped that has never really been the case, only appeared so. Then it gets relaxed again... But can feel like the Boogeyman being real in the beginning. Enlightenment is realizing the separate self (the appearance/Gestalt of its merely arising thoughts/feelings/sensations and so on) doesn't exist (the "Horror-Moment" for some) NEVER EXISTED (the big relieve of realizing the mistaken identity of the past), and WILL never (really) exist the Real Oneself/Reality will never get confused or suffer, because its fully empty Infinite Consciousness/NOTHINGNESS/Reality without any specific qualities, but with the potential for awareness if a world-appearance is imagined within it) , but only can contain confusion/suffering arisings of a newly imagined separate self). then, all is good.... and great fun to look forward Francis Lucille: Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of Ignorance. Infinite Consciousness/Reality doesn't worry/suffer. and all of that is impossible to fully get before the Gateless Gate, pretty clear afterwards... PSPS: When it feels like Horror: Good, one is getting closer Further, Jed McKenna-style! And when there is never a fear-reaction when beginning to intuit deeper the rediscovered identity, then its probably not the real thing.

Long story short: I had similiar experiences like you describe concering meditation ("Basically it has done exactly what "sitting in silence" sounds like it would do: Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does."). Then I read a lot about many different meditation system and traditions, hundreds of books. At some point, I found what changed everything for me: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. A "synthetic summary" of the Mahamudra-system, from Daniel P. Brown, Associate Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School, who read the texts in their original language. He also wrote his dissertation about the deep structure similiarities (and differences) of the main meditation systems of Tibetan Buddhism (Mahamudra), Theravada, and Yoga (Yoga Sutras of Patanjali). Then I did that for over a decade, read the book and its main passages probably somehting like 10 times plus (and many other Mahamudra/Dozgchen books), understood the more sophisticated parts (Stage 3, Yoga of One Taste, or of the simultaneous/nondual mind and Stage 4, Nonmeditation-Yoga, getting rid of the last remnants of the separate self) after getting substantial practice (certain part on the pillow, large part off the pillow in daily life whenever I didn't to fully concentrate for example on attention-capturing analytic tasks. So most of the day it was possible doing that). That got the meditation/mindfulness going during most of the day. All of that together created enough momentum to get something which feels like the Endohuasca-system going, when things got nondual, empty, groundless, appearances nondual and not so solid&"out there" but more lucid/mere appearance, and a lot of bliss. My theory is that when enough momentum is there (and the separate self arisings got seen through/transcended sufficienlty), something like this starts: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ . At least feels like this. Triggered by meditation. But I would not have needed that decade, maybe a few years if done with good coaching. I agree with you that you need massive momentum. What happens when "Just sit there like an idiot waiting for something to happen that never does." is orders of magnitude lower than having "ego destroyed by something serious, like a release dose of toad". Problem with only tripping instead of also meditating is that: Its not permanent, and significant structures of the separte self remain not transcended (although very subtle ones, you don't see and transcend these during the trip, however much one thinks that one has done so). which can (but doesn't have to) result in a pretty interesting and funny Narcissm-Show of a separate-self/Ego still well and alived, confusing separate self/ego remains with the Totality/God. Shortform something like: "Psychiatrist: I don't know your problem yet, so so its best when you start right from the beginning. Patient: In the beginning, I created the heavens and the earth." It can also end in the more humble version of not getting rid of the usual suffering cycles of the separate-self/ego chasing for experiences that promise to mitigate the discontent, but never permanently and fully deliver. If the ego elements/separate self elements kicks in later when sobre, they have not been transcended. That is what good and efficient meditation, done over a long time, can do: Get the separate self arisings out of the way that block ones reckognition of ones True nature. That consists mainly of two parts: the former subject (separate self), that is finally realized as Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness in which everything arises, including the former object "external world", which appeared as solid&out there (so not nondual), which finally becomes nondual and mere appearance/illusion/imagined. Short form: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche When you have that in daily life, the bliss that belongs to the package of the True Self gets delivered on top. Because without bliss, the normal cycle of suffering and chasing experiences to ease that discontent/suffering continues. That is pretty much the core of the separate self, the happy merry-go-round of chasing some experiences that never finally fulfills. And to conclude: Yes, I know IT is all nondual, infinite, imagined illusion, and so on and so on. But to get there, at least I prefer it to describe it in this way, using relative language (which by definition is based on duality). Why? Because its the only way to communicate, and something like that written above would have helped me tremendously 5 or 10 years ago. But everbody is different. If it doesn't help the one reading this, please be so kind to consider it as a buffet where you can take what you want and ignore the rest, and please do the Black Eyed Peas "Where is the love" video instead of the Bear move of the videos in the signature, or "The last duel of buster scruggs". Namaste! And of course (if you are so inclined) use psychedelics, for getting previews, getting a feel what its all about, and to blast some walls that show up on the way. I have written extensively about these topics in my previous posts. If you are so inclined, please check them for more details. All of that is just based on my experience and observations, and reading about past and historic cases. Maybe you find it helpful, or at least as an additional perspective. All the best on your journey. Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

> I want to be clear that 1) psychedelics and/or 2) meditating for thousands of hours is not required, or even optimal, for the absolute within every form to fully realize itself. These practices may be highly beneficial in some cases, but they are not universally prescribed. Anyone claiming otherwise doesn't understand the unconditional and inevitable diversity of the pathways used by the absolute to dissolve misidentifications and directly realize itself, within its dream. I agree that there are many paths up the mountain. And there are cases where neither meditations nor psychedelics was necessary. Ramana, Anandamayi Ma, and others. But at least I personally know of many more contemporary and historic examples where either meditation with or without psychedelics brought realization, than examples where these two techniques were not used. >I have noticed a general bias in this forum from people using psychedelics, insisting that their realizations are otherwise impossible. I understand the reasons for this bias, due to the extreme states that psychedelics can produce. However, it is simply untrue that these extreme states are necessary or universally optimal for awakening/enlightenment. I am not opposed to them, but I do oppose any mandate of psychedelics as a shortcut to absolute realization. We are also aligned that these extreme states are not necessary for Enlightenment. And psychedelics for sure are not necessary for realization. And probably they also have to potential to blow up ones narcissism to God-sized dimension, preventing the final drop into Nothingness or becoming fully Nothing, and Everything, or realizing the Absolute. But used in an intelligent, smart and humble way with intelligence and insight, they can be nice tools in addition to for example meditation and other paths/methods. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche When having to choose on betting for meditation or psychedelics, I would always choose meditation because if its either or, I have yet to see a stable Full Realization coming from psychedelics only. But maybe its out there, I don't know. I know many cases (contemporary and historic) where meditation did the job. Luckily, for most people, it is not either or. And if it is not either/or, I would recommend both, with a focus on meditation. > I directly realize the absolute beyond the physical senses, and it is a perpetual state of being, free from psychedelics. Yes I don't ask anyone to validate or invalidate my direct experience. Instead, I sincerely encourage whoever reads this to find their own internal path to the absolute, rather than adopting any universal prescription. Everyones path up the mountain is unique. Yet, traveling (or at least starting on) a path that many already have traveled and reached the top of the mountain is maybe a good starting point. And then, one is always free to improvise and follow ones intuiton/heart. And now I am going to read some of your archive of previous posts, looking for what you shared about your personal path, because I find your posts interesting, and I like them. Besides the path of suffering you mentioned, what specifically did you do/practice? How did it all develop? Water by the River

Everything unreal is imagined, and everything is unreal Imagination is simply misidentification by the real for something it is not. Absolute reality is beyond thingness and nothingness. It's paradoxical to the mind, and can't be comprehended, only directly realized.

Because what continues after the moment of death is again relative appearance, a "newly" imagined visual field, arisings in the opening of Absolute Reality that you are. The karmic tendencies of your current mind-stream, which aggregate and constitute your Soul that passes from life to life, have not been enlightened before you committ suicide. You have not stabilized your True Nondual Nature yet. Else, you normally wouldn't commit suicide, because it is your creation, and you would life the bliss/love flowing from your own True Core. All of that (Soul, this world, the Bardo afterwards, any other manifestation) is relative manifestation happening in the Absolute Reality/Nothingness that You really are. So it doesn't really exist, but appears to do so. And how much that can hurt (appearing to do so), one knows probably quite well enough from ones current life to take it serious, even if its essence is only Nothingness/Absolute Reality. But if your tendencies/Karma/Souls have not developed in this life to see through the illusion, that will come back again in the next life. Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour. – Padmasambhava And if you kill yourself while your soul still gravitates in the illusion of separation/suffering right now, why should it be different in the existence that reappears after death? The True You will still be there, but the relative mindstream of the reconstituting separate-self will not get any wiser doing stupid things (suicide). So you if you are not going to finish second class because you drop out of school, you are not going to be put into third grade. And how much fun second grade was in that case if you drop out of school you know quite well... And of course dying and approaching the Absolute/Clear Light of Death feels wonderful, like Infinite Love. You can have that experience also while alive with Nirvikalpa. Or drop some Psychedelics/5-MeO. See also all the Near Death Experiences. But when you come out of these states again, the whole enchilada of states manifests again backwards. A similiar process happens in the Dying process after having experiences to so called "Clear Light of Absolute Reality". Nothingness but with a certain afterglow/"knowledge/acess" still available after the experience and while having it, although there is no more duality. As for example the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol , The Tibetan Book of the Dead After having falling out from the Absolute/Clear Light of Absolute Reality/Nothingness, the not so funny stages of the reincarnation-process start, and since you are not familiar with these states/bardos, "relative you" gets frightened/not so infinite loving again... and then after suicide going back to second grade again, to finish the class, so to say. Don't worry, nobody gets lost. All make to the finish line at some point. Since you can't loose your true nature. And I would recommend not walking out of school (suicide), not making second grade, and repeating that 20 times. But of course, its a free country, and the point of the ride is the ride. If you want to repeat it 20 times, nothing will stop you. But why knowingly "shoot yourself in the foot", resisting your own manifestation/show, think yourself of clever and shoot yourself, and thinking that ends school and you go directly to Infinite Love permanently? And I honestly think Leo should add to "Death is Infinite Love"-statements something like: Only in the first stages of the dying process if you have not stabilized this love on a permanent basis before death/suicide, including experiencing Absolute Reality/True You on a constant basis. What follows afterwards experiencing the Absolute/Clear Light of Death in the dying process can be a lot less than Infinite Love. Like in, for example right here and now, depending on the mindstream. Any fool can read anything to the statement of "Death is Infinite Love", and aim unknowingly directly for repating 2nd class 20 times+, thinking he has graduated PhD in "Infinite Love ever after". Karma/Cause-Effect also holds for Leo & your forum & teaching, and having a track-record of (unnecessary) suicides on this board, is... -fill in the blanks of your liking-. In my opinion less than smart-as-can-be. Anyways, as always, bon voyage to all of you! Respectfully Yours Selling Water by the River

Nice post. Let me add some musings from my perspective. >But there is a catch. You see through all the egos games. If you speak from an Enlightened perspective you will not be understood. Every ego is afraid of absolute truth. Yes. The separation/separate self/Ego HAS to be scared by/avoid the truth, by definition. Else it would end soon.... Not so good for a nice, long, interesting game/show/Lila.... But at the same time, every separate being is deeply drawn back and attracted by its True Nature, which fragrence/bliss it never fully forgot, and only partly manages to avoid, closing down to this bliss and the following various projects to get it back via a variety of experiences . And these two contradicting drives (Pull of Illusion and Pull of Truth) drive the separate self sometimes quite nuts... >The final stage is to do activities just for the pure joy. You start to walk the path of appreciation. Yes. One couldn't do different. And it couldn't work different than that. Nothing left to force oneself to do something one doesn't want. No more internal conflicts, conflicting motivations. Luckily, if you have made it this far, your motivations are normally aligned with the Universe, because you have understood and trained compassion for a long time to stabilize resting in your True Nature/Awakening, see below. >You can also start getting attached to trying to alleviate suffering but that will take years of practice because egos will blame you for their feelings and accuse you of being the source of their suffering. They will demonize you and call you a victim blamer, arrogant, a narcissist, and a gaslighter. You will need to cultivate a deep compassionate patience should you choose to engage in helping others who suffer. Wise words. That is why in all Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist training systems compassion has a nearly (or fully) equal status to the training of wisdom, transcendence and Awakening. It is considered as an equal companion, laying the foundation, of wisdom/transcendence/Awakening/Enlightenment. Strange, is it, if the same systems consider all the be an Illusion, a magic show? So why do they do that? In relative reality (our life), one can not maintain stabilized Awakening (let alone Enlightenment), when you are constantly annoyed by the Truth-avoidance-mechanisms of ones fellow separate-selves, and react with negative emotions towards that. These negative emotions/reactions do shut down ones nondual experience of the visual field being groundless mere appearances hoving in Infinite Nothingness. And more easily to understand: They shut down ones love, which is the same as the acceptence of the here and now, which is the only thing happening/being imagined right now, and actually the True You in a nondual way. So these emotions are just incompatible with keeping the nondual realization ongoing, an auto-immune-reaction on parts of your own True Being, cutting nonduality in two creating duality. And that doesn't... feel good . At least my experience. And that of many others. By the way, if something happening requires immideate "not-accepting"-action, like running away from an attacking bear, that is of course also done. Staying open and fearless, and not constricting the love/acceptence of this present moment doesn't exclude acting wisely. It is not so wise and smart to serve as food for the attacking bear. There are better things to do with your separate-self-vehicle than that.... Only Empty Mirrors are stupid enough to get their frames teared down by confused attacking bears, see my Signature of the post below, but that is another story as explained in the Job Profile for Empty Mirrors. My theory (experience) is that these "less-than-loving", non-so-compassionate, non accepting/closing down emotions cut off the Endohuasca-system: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ , solidifying the mere-appearance infinite nondual field of lucid world-arisings hovering in infinite Nothingness, made out of Nothingness as its essence, and making it solid&external or appearing "out there", duality: the "normal" state of the separate self, often less than loving, imprisoned in duality most or all of the time. So it is impossible to live in a stabilized Awakening (let alone Enlightenment) without deep compassion for other not yet realized beings. You can not blame an acorn for not being an oak tree yet. That would be rather stupid. All acorns got and are Buddha-Nature (or can realize their potential by becoming an oak tree). It is for example not the way society raises children, which is a similiar topic. We don't blame children for not being adults yet, but acknowledge their potential of being adults themselves, and raise them up to that potential. Every time I write Selling Water by the River, it is to acknowledge by the way that what is being doing is Illusion. But a nice one! What else is there to do? And since there is only appearance/illusion, there is no difference between reality and appearing illusion in some way. And Karma/cause effect fully works/holds, works like a clockwork, driven by infinite intelligence. Even if its only imagined... that "I" am "selling" something that is freely available to all (the Water of the River). Actually, there is only the Water of the River. That the water of the River is the Buddha Nature of every being, the Nothingness that is the essence of all of Reality. So nothing that could be superior to anything else at the end of the day... Actually, there are no others to safe. And yet, that is what tends to appear to happen normally. And should happen on a relative level, as it is in the nature of things... And that is paradoxical from before the Gateless Gate, but not afterwards... It is only the True You manifesting in endless perspectives.... sometimes appearing (only appearing) confused in some mindstreams, and in some not. The "Core" never gets confused, since it is Nothing(-ness). It contains the confused or unconfused mind-stream arisings. And Maya is the great seductress (hey, "somebody" has to orchestrate the illusion-show. Else it wouldn't be there! ) but there are even more elements build into our reality to guide souls back to their true nature. One of the mightiest and most powerful ones are probably: What is more attractive? An Ego/separate self preaching arrogantly with self-importance and narcissism from upon high, or a being radiating love, compassion and wisdom/bliss? and guess what feels better for the being doing that why does every being yearn for bliss/peace, intuiting that that is what one really is? In a practical experience, compassion/love increases ones realtive happiness in every way. A happy, integrated "relative" life, delivering on the stages of Maslow what the separate self need to thrive and not scream for attention most of the time, resulting in a separate self that is much more easy to transcend than a drama-show-separate-self, that constantly requires attention and maintenance, and suffers lack on the lower levels of Maslows pyramid (financials&job, friends/partner, health, security needs, belonging-needs, self-esteem, self-actualization...) And also speedens up self-realization significantly, or even enabling it, and stabilizes it. That even shows in the fact that countless studies asking humans about their deepest/strongest sources of relative happiness in life is human connection (which is based in large parts on love/compassion, or resonating deeply with "another" soul, seeing and being seen, which then yields natural compassion out of that resonance. At least if its done in a healthy way). Selling Water by the River PS: Ken Wilber: Wake up, Grow Up, Show Up

I agree that large parts of Buddhism/"Hinduism" and any other Spiritual Tradition had major impacts from psychedelics, and genetically/"karma-developed" realizers. Yet, most of them did some kind of meditation, often for very long times. And I don't believe (personal opinion, based on what I have seen) that only tripping will get you really to a deep identity with your True Identity, Absolute Reality itself. Especially its essence, which Hawal for example calls Nothingness (because the essence of the Always Here Reality is totally empty, Nothing(ness) at all. Only this way (totally empty), It/True You can be totally infinite and manifest anything. For sure, ignoring or not using, or advising against psychedelics, or the "hurricane" to blow away 95%+ of the separate self arisings/clouds covering the sun(True Nature, see some of my last posts) is in my opinion not the most efficient and integral method. Why not use these tools as a preview to the fulltime thing of stabilized Awakening, enabling to perceive the visual field as lucid hologram-like mere appearances hovering in infinite timeless Nothingness and disabling/transcending the separate self arisings from a level of separate self bodymind mindstrem to being a mostly empty witness but still some kinds of very very subtle layers of Individuality/separateness still going on, like an empy-nothing-consciousness watching (or even being) some kind of mere appearance-infinity. But still with some very very subtle levels of the separate self arisings still active. and these very fine last layers/filters/clouds of the remaining separate self arisings/individuality/being not the Totality at the deepest Identity Level fully, prevent the full realization, which would make IT stable after coming out of the trip. To become fully Everything/Totality on a stable basis, one has to be totally Nothing(-ness). At least for me, this seems totally logical in theory, and is also demonstrated in practice time and time again of what kills the solidity of the visual field (and makes the visual field mere empty groundless appearance hovering in Nothingness) and its "externalness/not nonduality", making "It" one seamless infinite nondual Totality/whole: Being the Nothingness fully,and stabilizing in that. Short form: "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche So, why did the actively psychedelic using traditions either disappear (Vajrayana in medieval India), or go underground in secrecy? My theory is: When you got a monastery with meditation technique (that is maybe not the most efficient one), bringing less than a few percent of the people to Enlightenment, and supplying that with the goooood psychedelic stuff ... (which was not so gooood in the past, nearly nobody had 5-MeO for example, mainly Mushrooms and LSD/Ergot/... and some DMT. Well, you can imagine the show of the ladies and gentlemen inside which are by definition confusing in the beginning phases of their Psychonaut/tripping-journey parts of their separte self arisings/Ego with the Infinite Field of Totality hovering as mere appearance in groundless eternal Nothingness when they take the psychedelics. that probably has led to an Ego-show of the highest degree of only partly transcended Egos/separate selfs.... Imagine who would not like to join the club/monastery if rumours of tripping occur? the support from the community to such an institution would have been shut down after quite fast after a few scandals of "not-so-enlightened-living" But most importantly (and at least my experience): To stabilize Awakening in daily life, which brings the bliss and freedom from psychological suffering) that everybody (wants independend of outer circumstances), one needs a deep identity shift towards ones True Nature, which is Nothingness as "Subject"/or better Deep-Identity with the nondual Totality and Nothingness (Halaw) as its essence, which means no remaining separate self arising not spotted and "not believed"/"not hypnotized by"/not transcended/not cut-off fast enough. and that takes time, hundreds if not thousands of hours resting in empty Suchness (which can then already be done in daily life, but the beginning phase without some (or a lot) sitting/meditation is probably difficult. and one doesn't get enough time in the psychedelic state to do that, and even more important if you meditate, you get direct feedback on if you transcend your character/separate self arisings/Ego or not: If you don't, then the visual field doesn't get shimmering mere apperance, but stays rock-solid and "out-there/external/dual. If you just drop psychedelic, it is probably impossible to not project certain remaining aspects of the separate self on the Totality, leaving it not totally empty of separate self/subject, but a mix of the Truth and remaining separate-self-illusion-arisings. and Everything Else (the infinite Totality of the visual field/"external" world hovering as mere groundless imagined appearance in the always here Nothingness. again, the very nice summary of Kalu Rinpoche: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. All of that means that I believe that one has to and should do both, psychdelics AND meditation, preferably an efficient meditation-system (broken record of mine: I recommend for example Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown, and in general Mahamudra/Dzochen), I have written in my past posts about this topic): get Awakenings and previews of the real state of things via psychedelics, and hopefully don't get the separate self/ego blown up by that to epic proportions by projecting the properties of the epic/awe-inspring Absolute Reality on the separate self individuality arisings (that is Maya giving you a hugely seductive kiss) and get deeply established in ones True Identity (Nothingness), so that one never forgets ones True Nature in daily life never loosing the Deep Identity of being the Totality, the visual field staying nondual and as lucid empty mere appearances. I have written about the Endohuasca-System, which is (I believe, and also my experience) triggered by stabilizing these empty states of transcending the separate self: https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ never loosing the bliss of ones own True Identity One of the largest experiments (both in scope of people doing it, and psychonauts having gone as fare as ever before, and further) is being conducted right here in this community/forum, and in general with the ongoing psychedelic revival. We are sitting in the prime seats to see if those belittling meditation (and emphasizing only psychedelics or also only meditation, one or the other) or those that recommend both methods to be integrated and used together) end up living a beautiful, satisfying and blissful life, stabilizing their True Deep Identity in daily life, and explore more of the depths of the Kosmos. My personal belief is that the Totality gives one a lot of insight into the structure of the manifested/relative side of Absolute Reality by doing mainly (or only) psychedelics, but so far, as I see it, Absolute Reality doesn't give the full bliss and stable Awakening in daily life to those only or mostly or only doing psychedelics. Opposite examples welcome, I have not seen one so far that fully stabilized ones True Nature as Deep Identity (and the ensuing Liberation), neither historical nor contemporary. Even if it exists/existed/or will happen, think about what that says about the success rates of the paths psychedelic only and meditation. I also assume, since Absolute Reality is all there is, infinitely intelligent, all powerful, certain areas of exploration of the Multiverse are blocked for part-time-separate-selves only doing tripping, but falling from grace/loosing Awakening after the trip. As this worlds contains many many traps that stabilized the illusion of Maya/Duality/Separate Self, from what I see this minefield doesn't end when doing psychedelics, but actually starts there at the highest level: Blowing up ones Ego to epic proportions via projecting the separate self arisings/identity onto the properties of the Infinity Absolute Reality is a hugely seductive trap, but blocks the stabilizing of ones True Identiy (fully empty Nothingness -in Halaws definition- Core Identity), and being nondually Everything in daily life. So, ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seatbelts, and watch one of the most interesting shows of the Multiverse developing right here in this forum, and in the psychedelic revival at large... Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River >PS: Can you imagine driving a car then your mind just randomly goes into a Salvia trip? Sometimes I have the feeling that exactly something like that happens with fellow drivers .Luckily, not too often... ( :

Yes it's your conscious choice in which state you want to be in if you want you don't take any physical form and stay in the godstate. But there is beauty in duality you will get bored by being in nothingness state. And remember you are god and god wants to live all these lives in physical form! But if you do not want to you can always have a choice!