Search the Community

How do you connect with loved ones who passed away? I want a practical answer here, at my human level of understanding. Don't give me a one sentence answer like death is an illusion or I'm imagining it. Being that those may be true, those one sentence answers are hard to articulate from my point of progress. Give me a human being answer. Here's what I want to know: Where the fuck are they? Where did they go? Can they see everything I'm doing? Do they know what I'm thinking? What are physical/spiritual symptoms that they are around/watching me right now? How do I communicate with them? After a year of being dead, are they just hanging out in nothingness being able to do anything they want?

Excellent. For me, the crucial Point for really getting the meditation "really" off the pillow into daily life was getting to THAT here Skill of Recognition: (1. Yoga of Mahamudra system) Now it gets interesting. That was the decisivepoint for me once I understood that, and implemented it. Afterwards, it started to get nondual pretty soon... If you look HOW the thoughts emerge, (1) out of what they emerge, (2) what they are, (3) in what they move (4) into what they disappear ALL of that (1)(2)(3)(4) must be present. Thoughts DO appear. From "something". Stay in "something". Consisting of "something" All of that is Emptiness, or Consciousness, or Nothingness. Thoughts are made of "that","move in that", "dissolve into that". and you will never SEE that, or can say what it is. Nothing. But not a blank nothing. An aware Nothing. Actually the essence of all world-appearances, but that comes later, when it gets nondual, at the Yoga of One Taste. What happens if you investigate into emerging thoughts this way, is that they get FASTER. VERY FAST. Like 20-30 emergent thoughts/feeling arisings per second, most of them rudimentary. The mind does this to keep the illusion going. To make it too fast for you. But at some point, you learned to get that fast also... Basically, looking into a thought, one sees its Emptiness/Nothingness (one doesn't find the thought, it evaporates). It is cut off. Dzogchen calls this cutting off "Trekchö". Daniel Brown called this stage a "High Speed Search Task into the unfindability of the nature of thoughts". A High Speed Search task into their emptiness, into their nature as consciousness, as Nothingness. So the emerging gets fast, very fast. Daniel Ingram also mentions that. But at some point, with enough practice and familiarity, YOU get faster. You spot and cut off every very fast, subtle, fragmentary thought arising. None of them "grips" you anymore, since you have seen them all, and their structure. Just thoughts arising very fast. You don't control which thoughts arise. Depended origination, they are just emerging by themselves. You can focus on just their arising (of thoughts), just their staying, just their going away. At some point, they just emerge, looking into their nature is automatic, and they immediately dissolve. No duration. Just emergence, and poof gone. And when you are fast enough, you get a continuance of staying mindful. When that happens its pretty clear what happened. Your attention got so fast that you can stay mindful even through the high-speed thought emergence. At the end, they come very fast, they don't get "elaborated out". Thinking, or elaborating the thoughts out, is slower than their emergence. They emerge already fully complete with their content, and then slowly get "talked/elaborated" in your mind. Natural reaction: So WHO the f*** am I (pardon my french) when I don't control what thoughts emerge and if they appear fully with their content in a fraction of a second, and get elaborated later in a hypnotic show over several second? good question... to be answered later. Outcome is: You know the nature of every possible thought (Consciousness-Emptiness-Nothingness), of the whole mental-continuum of thoughts, all that there can be. Their nature. you can cut off or transcend/just watch your normal mindstream in most daily situations without getting caught up/hypnotized by it, which already here leads to a lot of bliss. Not sufficient bliss to get ones separate self completely handled, but already quite wonderful. That is the start of real freedom. You know how your mindstream hypnotizes you, and gets faster when you actually look into each thought arising and its nature. At some point you get fast enough to cut off every arising, or let it elaborate in a controlled aka mindful way. Maybe that is interesting for some. Selling Water by the River

@Bazooka Jesus and when Bazooka is finished breating in the bag and is no longer nervous... he will also rejoice in the new found alignment in the relationship of Razard and yours truly. ... maybe he will even join us here singing: Yes, I thinking we are getting there.... For sure not for long, but lets rejoice in this moment of appearing harmony... Isn't this Lila lovely, so many "others" to love? Its not so lonely as in Pure Nothingness.... ok, its imagined, but "who" cares... No other game in town, and lovely movie anyway... Selling Water by the River

Hi Davecraw, in the humble experience of yours truly, you can not rule out with logic if something else besides experience exists until certain Awakened States are realized that show the infinite and limitless nature of the Visual Field, and any other possible field/dimension (like the dimensionless opening/dimension in which subtle objects like thoughts arise). But: One can (and should) use logic to get to an agnostic level: NOTHING prooves that there is a material, external, self-existing world beyond the bubble of the visual field, beyond experiences. You can neither proove nor disproove that with logic. That is a fine point, because arguing WITH logic that only experience exists is one bridge too far. Can't be done. One would need to twist logic to proove that. Although certain very active gentlemens are giving it very extended tries at the moment. Prooving that only experience exists (and no self-existing external material world) can only be done with Awakened States that show the following properties of an Awakened Field of Awareness (below, the goal/outcome of Yoga of one Taste, stage 3 Mahamudra. One Taste = Nondual Union with the Infinite Field) any felt separation between "you" and the "external world" appearing in the visual field is vividly felt first as arising object of subject-object separation, a felt sensation, that then gradually disappears. Including all localization in the body (tension head, body-feelings that cause localization, and so on). Yoga of Illusory Body for example, there are discrete energetic practices to dissolve these contractions/localizations. Or just wait long enough in empty states.... so, union,"nondual" with the field. any "boundary" to anything limiting that visual field (or any other field) can only be an arising, an appearance. Not the boundless limitless infinite Nothingness. time, past and future is seen as mere concepts/ideas/arisings in the timeless Always Here Mind of Infinite Awakened Awareness/Infinite Consciousness. everything in the visual field is just appearance, "hovering" as pretty lucid display in mere Nothingness. -> mere apperance these states bring a lot of bliss and love It happens approximately in that order progressively with good meditation practice. Or, if you are lucky, all by itself (Karma,state). But then good luck telling anybody of the structure of the path to get there that one didn't even notice the path while one passed it, because they flew over it. Or: Ramana and all the other Wunderkinder/prodigies probably won't be able to tell you much details about the turns, wrong exits and scenic views on the road to Awakening, because they took the 747 to the destination. and the Zen and Theravada path tend also tend to not give a very detailed map (at least in the opinion of yours truly), but just a compass and say: go/meditate west, to the west is California & the Ocean. Mahamudra gives you a quite detailed map: Death Valley is here, you wanna go there, don't take the wrong exit, don't camp here, here are the gentlemen with bows&arrows, and so on... So, to get these states: (good efficient) meditation, or psychedelics. Then, counting together the awakenings above in bold letters, it becomes what is called in Mahamudra "boundless limitless timeless nondual loving Awakened Awareness". And THEN you can talk about "there is only experience, anywhere, everywhere", without needing to fool yourself with logic in the nature of your experience. And btw., that is not theory or wishful thinking, but my actual experience with a meditation system of Mahamudra (Tibetan Buddhism, "companion"-system of Dzogchen) described best in Pointing Out the Great Way, Daniel Brown , developing over quite some years. All of the above is the of and up to Yoga of One Taste (3. Stage Mahamdura). Ken Wilbers Diary Book has the titel "One Taste". The same One Taste of that practice, refering to it. One Taste: Daily Reflections on Integral Spirituality, Wilber. The outcome of Yoga of One Taste (3. Stage Mahamdura) gives one a shot (or many many, since many many are neede) to dissolve the last separate self-arisings remnants (the Yoga of Nonmeditation stage 4 Mahamudra), which then brings Full/Complete Enlightenment, in Leos terms God-Realization (although i find that term a bit bombastic, although technically precise if God is Ultimate EMPTY IMPERSONAL Infinite Reality) . Yoga of Nonmeditation dissolves the last remnants of a separate self moving in oneself/Infinite Reality, like awareness of being, awareness of self, any self-reflective arising of being anything. (hint: of= subject object, not full nondual. Still self-reflective thinking/identity creation). What remains is: Reality. The Totality. And zero separation, real Nonduality. Empty. Impersonal. Pure Infinite Consciousness. Staying as "always eternally here" Infinite Impersonal Nothingness. With Awareness as its essence. Yoga of Nonmeditation does this in that any meditation is so fully automized that there are no more separate self arisings doing the meditation to generate and stabilize the Awakened States of Yoga of One Taste, 3. Stage Mahamudra. Not that actually an illusion separate-self claims "Oh I am doing this nondual meditation so great". Would be a funny contradiction of Nothingness would be really pure impersonal Infinite Consciousness if something like that arises, hm? And that takes also a lot of time. Don't fry your brains too much trying to these maybe 500h-1000h+ with 5 MeO (depending of course on ones Karma/brain and body), because yours truly has never read/heard about a credible case where that has been done. Although they could exist. Volunteers for the fried brains, anybody? Joke: How do you spot a pioneer? Got a few fried brain cells arrows in the back. Just kidding. We do need that tested out. And how Psychedelic Paths combined with meditation systems above... Pure Mahamudra is too slow to have larger impact. Allthough still the best system (in the opinion of yours truly) of all of them, and then, good morning after waking up, game over, welcome home! And be nice to "enlighened persons", What is mostly being done with meditation and especially psychedelics, is dabbling around up to and around stage 3, Nonduality (Yoga of One Taste), with are more or less empty subject, up to a very empty witness already in union with then Nondual Infinite Field. "Having" Awakenings. With any kind of content: This World, Aliens, the management & staff running this Universe, other Dimensions, whatever ones heart delights in. An Infinity (literally) of stuff to explore... What is not so often talked about is the "suicide" of stage 4, Nonmeditation Yoga, Full Enlightenment. Getting fully Impersonal with transcending/killing each and every separate-self arising having all these lovely nondual experiences/awakenings. No Aliens required, but still possibly quite a bit scary for sure. But looks only scary from before the Gateless Gate. Any separate self arising (the enlightened or awake "person" having these awakenings, n+1) raising its ugly head, are seen as just more separate-self-contractions buzzing in Ones True Self. Another annoying little headache-bug to laugh about. Another moskito buzzing around in the Infinite Reality that one then realizes onself to be and ever having been, to squatt/Trekchö. One more contraction to let go and transcend. and one lucky day, one just wakes up. But death is death, transcendence is death, even if its only the death of an Illusion. And Maya needs her tools, like the Wizard of Oz, else everbody would just say bye bye to the game. [Disclaimer: In nearly all cases, real suicide is about the most stupid thing one can do. Back to square 1, more Karma added on top. Or how to continue the dream, dodging out ones Karma of this life, with additional Karma on top from hitting the reset-button. But no soul gets lost, just do 3rd grade again, with a headache-hangover from the last try. Finally, every soul graduates college. But some like school so much that they don't listen to most teachers, and do some classes over and over again]. So, have fun on the trip, don't fry your brains, keep your humor (Wilber, Transcendence restors humor), squatt all separate self bugs, and Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River Ken Wilber wrote: “TRANSCENDENCE RESTORES HUMOR. Spirit restores humor. Suddenly smiling returns. Too many representatives of too many movements – even many very good movements, such as feminism, environmentalism, meditation, spiritual studies – seem to lack humor altogether. In other words, they lack lightness, they lack a distance from themselves, a distance from the ego and its grim game of forcing others to conform to its contours... They should all trade two pounds of ego for one ounce of laughter”(Ken Wilber. 1999. One Taste: The Journals of Ken Wilber. December 7). PS: And for all other beings/perspectives of Indras Net, see: and if you don't already have an overkill, and better go for nice walk or so... Some more for the Aficionados of conceptual overkill: And now, really better go fishing or something... “frog pond plop”

Yes, you are right. God needs attention . Nothingness with its Infinity Plentitude, in which every emotion arises WITHIN, NEEDS the emotion of getting attention. Not the ego needs attention, but God/Divinity does. Yeah, right. Like this gentlemen with style & taste, who just craves attention. Why else he likes to play with the two legged walking contradiction? Even though they are not on his level? But hey, you are doing good. Actually great. You single-handedly destroy the closed ideology of Conceptual Absolute Solipsism as anything that can be taken seriously by anybody on the forum that is able to think beyond Circular Logic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning#:~:text=Circular reasoning (Latin%3A circulus in,are trying to end with. and anybody with a heart that can actually feel wether one has fallen mainly in love with the reflections in the pond of Narcissus and the attention-craving these reflections cause, or is acting out of deep, honest and humble compassion with all beings. And for sure you demonstrate which kind of being resonates with Absolute Solipsism, its automatically (can't be different) resulting Narcissism and self-grandiosity, and Messianic ambitions. And its promoting of Moral Relativism that is necessary to justify its egoic behaviours: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism Your case is like a text-book example that couldn't be clearer. So please go on, preach the gospel, and maybe start offering courses in an PhD of Theology of Absolute Solipsism. Ever thought about it? In that sense, move on, rattle the cage, and Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River PS: And if you ever have a silent moment, how about deeply feeling deeply into your heart and reflecting wether you have unpacked the basic moral intuition in the most deepest and truest way possible for you? Or if some ego and lovely reflections in the pond got in the way? https://integrallife.com/basic-moral-intuition-the-greatest-depth-for-the-greatest-span-2/#:~:text=Wilber contends with his notion,about and care for span.

Yes. On one side, all is mere apperance "imagined" hovering in Infinite Nondual Nothingness, made out of Nothingness/Consciousness as its essence. That becomes very clear when solidity and external-ness is replaced by this mere appearance/brighter/more luminous character of the visual field when Nonduality is in place. Infinite Boundless timeless Consciousness. A very discrete state, in which realizing the Infinite Reality becomes more likely (Crossing Over). When the separate self is fully gone, and Infinite Consciousness becomes fully impersonal. But, one can still talk very well for example "manifests" instead of imagines. Imagining is done by a actor/speaker/subject. Manifestation (the term Wilber uses often) is the same process done, but by Indras Net/Reality. Imagined/manifested as Illusion-Show not by the actor/speaker, but by other/further perspectives of ones True Being. Indras Net. Nondual of course, but NOT in control of the perspective of the separate being. Not the ego is running the show, But certain Universe creating/maintaining perspectives/Holons/Beings. The Buddha in middle of each Buddhafield/Universe, however one wants to call that perspective/entity/being. So "imagine", like you say, can hold a subtle separation. That is exactly what runs through his whole system, including Absolute Solipsism, and especially Infinity of Gods. Selling water by the River

I am curious about the experience someone has on MeO For example when you take a high dose/very high dose of MeO, how exactly is the transition from normal to psychodelic state of consciousness? Does it kicks in immediatelly or does the state noticeable build up? What do you see/feel then when it hits? What are typical visuals: everything black/white, nothingness, fractals? And how would you describe the experienced infinity: is it a feeling, a realisation, or impossible to describe?

"A quote i read in Leo's blog: The God-Self is not found as a point inside your skull behind your eyes. The God-Self is your entire field of perception. Stop turning your attention inside your skull, rather, put your attention on the entire bubble that is your visual field. That is God! Stop looking for God inside your head or outside your visual field. What is meant by put your attention on the entire bubble that is your visual field like what bubble?" Yes to Mokshas statement Basically confusing God/Absolute with the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness, In case Leo uses the concept/pointer God for Absolute, then the statement above is wrong (or at least incomplete, but tending on the wrong side). If God is used for the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness, it is correct. I leave it up for the reader to decide if the psychdelic path so far made the author of the lines/quote above (its separate self) fully impersonal/fully empty/fully transcended/Nothingness, and really NONDUAL Nothingness/Emptiness being one with every form, or if some lenses/filters are still declaring aspects of the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness as Absolute(s), like separate-self lenses being aware OF any God/Alien/Totality/Infinity of Gods/Bubble visual field) any manifested side of consciousness. Even Absolutes in the Plural form were declared. An oxymoron, if there is any. Nice book on the topic on Awakening/Enlightenment into the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness (partial Enlightenment) and the Full Enlightenment into the unmanifested/fully impersonal/fully empty/Nothingness Side of Infinite Consciousness and the integration of that with the Awakening into the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness is Szyper, Infinite Consciousness That book alone could clear up where the path up the mountain-summit took a little detour with a downwards-slope.... and once the course is reversed, the altimeter-reading begins climbing again, Pointing out the Great Way, Brown, if applied correctly, could boost the ascend like a Falcon 9 rocket, as long as enough good Karma/rocket-fuel is still remaining.... Bon voyage! Selling Water by the River

Hi Fellow Lighter Already very nice and pretty empty. And if you no throw out each and ANY positive description in Nothingness (in case you want to use it as pointer for Absolute Reality), like undistorted (undisturbed) light pure flow of energy Light then you are getting really close to your True Nature. You can only say what it is NOT. Because it is Infinite. not finite a) b) c) ...) . But you never say with a "positive" concept what it IS. Maybe you will find the book of God is Nothingness - Andrew Halaw interesting: "There is only the not-‘that’ That— the Great, Magnificent Void, the womb of all existence. NOTHINGNESS. Bound by neither space nor time, Nothingness is dimension-less, time-less, and form-less. The Void is unborn, unoriginated, unconditioned, and deathless, neither coming nor going, ‘creating’ nor destroying, rewarding nor punishing. It has never set anything in motion nor caused anything to happen. ... Do not look for it with your senses or mind, for the Void is beyond color, sound, smell, taste, touch, form, and thought." all the best & Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River

Actually, that statement would be the last missing piece in order to provide enough space for the mania of certain egos to roam freely in the (un-) fertile plane of God-sized narcicissm. Undisturbed by each and any conceptual systems (royal charter or not) keeping its insanity in check. Narcis lived long and unhappily ever after.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity "Insanity, madness, lunacy, and craziness are behaviors performed by certain abnormal mental or behavioral patterns. Insanity can manifest as violations of societal norms, including a person or persons becoming a danger to themselves or to other people. Conceptually, mental insanity also is associated with the biological phenomenon of contagion (that mental illness is infectious) as in the case of copycat suicides [or here only copycat-Solipsism. At least for now]. In contemporary usage, the term insanity is an informal, un-scientific term denoting "mental instability"; thus, the term insanity defense is the legal definition of mental instability. In medicine, the general term psychosis is used to include the presence of delusions and/or hallucinations in a patient;[1] and psychiatric illness is "psychopathology", not mental insanity.[2]" In English, the word "sane" derives from the Latin adjective sanus meaning "healthy". Juvenal's phrase mens sana in corpore sano is often translated to mean a "healthy mind in a healthy body". From this perspective, insanity can be considered as poor health of the mind, not necessarily of the brain as an organ (although that can affect mental health), but rather refers to defective function of mental processes such as reasoning. Another Latin phrase related to our current concept of sanity is compos mentis ("sound of mind"), and a euphemistic term for insanity is non compos mentis. In law, mens rea means having had criminal intent, or a guilty mind, when the act (actus reus) was committed." Razard, up for the task? Kill the King Buddha on the road? A little revolution against the monarch? The revolution always eats its own children. Ever wondered why there is zero comment from the top of the realm? Because Razard God is imagining Leo. Leo said that himself. So guess what the next move of Razard God would be? End the lovely show and go home? So it ends in, you guessed it, probably banning. One way or the other. And then, having done so, maybe grace another lovely forum with some messianic endeavours? @Razard86 Razard, if you are really faithful for your king, how about insulting somebody in such a way that the guardians of the realm can kick you out of the forum without the king needing to declare your writings as gone pretty far off the deep end heretic? Or any other heavy violation against the forum guidelines? Although, it seems you got a good bonus in violating lots of points in the forum guidelines already, admittingly. Or, how about wising up and revoking? Thought the chances of that are reaaaly low.... @Bazooka Jesus I guess Bazooka Jesus has already booked a seasonal pass localchapter of Spiritualoholics Anonymous,.. Selling Water by the River PS: Rupert Spira on Solipsism "Solipsism is madness often confused in contemporary non-dual circles with Nonduality. Nonduality is saying something very very very different." Does anybody think that gentle being like Rupert says something like madness lightly? Nonduality is similiar to Solipsism that there is only one Consciousness, but with a completely empty IMPERSONAL Infinite Consciousness, the separate self DEAD AND TRANSCENDED. Gone. Nonduality is not the insanity of declaring the ego God. Declaring the ego God is literally the root of all evil. Evil in the meaning of a holon stepping out of its place, putting itself on top of the pyramid, and the whole holarchy getting sick. Not transcend and include, but hijack and go mad... Is it really so complicated? No, it isn't. But true Nonduality/Enlightenment demands a price. "you" must die. Which is not really bad, because all that dies or gets transcended is an illusion: The self-contraction, which causes all the suffering anyway, gets transcended and let go off. Solipsism doesn't demand a price. That is why its easy and attractive for Narcicissm. The easy way up the mountain summit into the darkest pits of the hell of madness. But with a smile from Maya. Or a nice song "Sympathy For The Devil": Pleased to meet you, Hope you guess my name, But what's puzzling you, Is the nature of my game And now Rupert Spira, bringing some clarity and salvation to the topic: Ah, the guy is talking about minds. Yes he does. But in a way that is totally compatible with Infinite Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness and Nonduality,and "God-Realization" and "its all illusion, God is fooling himself so deeply..." . If one actually reads a book or two or some videos from the Gentleman, before declaring him not awake, that would be pretty clear... Mind=perspective in Indras Net. But according to Rupert when enlightened, IMPERSONAL INFINITE NONDUAL CONSCIOUSNESS. And the fact that "God" fools itself and the illusion goes so deep.... of course! If all is mere manifestation imagined/arising in the totally empty impersonal opening of Infinite Reality, what is EVERY arising? Illusion-stuff of course. Mirage. Nothing else.... n+1. No need for always new awakenings n+1, the "fooling itself" has stopped forever (at least for this life, Brain damage excluded...) . okay, and now the

Pure energy-flow... Or undistorted (undisturbed) light. Quite contrary to the concept of light that you're used to. It's not daylight nor sunshine that I'm talking about. But the actual light which is unreflected, not refracted, light in its pure transparent state of being. In this sense you may understand that the original light has neither form or colour – it's only quality being the pure flow of energy. And that's it. That's nothingness. But also, that's you without the potential for love, or rather, the activity of love. Think about the word infinity again. Look at it as if it's the first time learning of the word. And begin to decipher it as though you were a student of a foreign language: You begin with finity , understanding it as the quality of being finite. What has this quality of finitude if not everything we experience? Every thing is finite. Because every thing is form, and all form is, as you've probably learned by now, limited. So finity = form = something = a perturbation of some sort. Then you begin to decipher infinity: in-finity – a direct contradiction to that quality of finitude – meaning thusly without form, without limitation, without anything, for all things are forms. So what is infinite? Nothing really. Nothing except for light. Light is totally unified in its beingness. So much so that it's the only thing that science cannot begin to break down into smaller units. How so? Because light is energy itself. Because energy might not be a thing at all. And when energy flows purely, that is, without any control or means of direction, without distortion – it's appearance is Nothingness. However, nothingness has only ever been a word that describes an appearance, even if that description is the absence of an appearance. In truth, there is no Nothing, there is only you in your state of untapped potential. You are the current. You are that pure energy-flow. Because you Are. Perhaps it's not Nothingness that we've been talking about. Perhaps it's always just been, just is, Beingness amidst the confusion of many many (finite) loves. It's just light being distorted by love.

I see. Below my perspective on that, as you partly already known for sure, since I replied to you in one of these posts. I know, broken record: Good way to "kill/transcend/let go/make subject->object moving in You" anything in the mindstream: Mahamudra, Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown. Including these "anythings": Now I need to take care that I don't sound arrogant at such an existential topic: The "smiles" of Maya protecting her illusions can also take the wrathful/horror-forms like that. feeling of horror is just another arising, its essence empty Nothingness. Water by the River

No, don't think so. He is a genius of sorts, who drove the car up the psychedelic path to as close to the mountain peak as possible, pushing many gas-loads of 5 MeO in the tank. Maybe at some point the engine got a little bit- uhhhh- busted, but no risk no fun. And he seems to be doing fine nowadays. Thank GOD! He saw 95% plus of the Mountain Peak already. That consequently ended up first with the Solipsism-video, and later Infinity of Gods-video. Which is exactly how Infinity seen from separate self remains should look like: An Infinity of Gods. True, but partial, not the end of the story. And some confusions (separate self-elements still projected on Absolute Reality&trip) still well and alive. But nearly up K2, altitude-wise already pretty much in the death-zone, sorts off. Long enough up there, and the separate-self.... Then he also took a little detour to visit the Aliens, which in my humble opinion is just exploring more relative stuff, meandering a path of the mountain on the altitude of Infinity of Gods, or a little bit below. Its a bit sad that the camera didn't capture the pic of the Alien, would have been a lovely picture for the family album. Then he confused the frequent Buddhist half-way-up-the-mountain Enlightenment (so common for example in Buddhism, but everywhere else also) with the full thing, where the half-way-up-the-mountain-scenic drive declares having realized/"seen" Emptiness or Nothingness and being aware of that as final Enlightenment (happens pretty much to everyone, see 3 Pillars of Zen for example, in which still a subtle separate self/transparent nondual witness with some individuality/lenses/separation still active), confusing the being aware OF it with actually becoming that Nothingness as a Deep Identity - or all lenses/filters/identities/separate-self building blocks gone. So no more OF, and nothing that could even think/say OF. The full nondual empty impersonal "thing". The Illusion of the self-contraction dead, gone, finished. Thank God. He intuited correctly the absolutely deep, complex, marvelous and ingenious divine illusion-show-mechanisms (ranging the whole height of the mountain, until its very top) of how "God"/most of Indras Net fools himself and every other sentient being still believing to be separate, and called the understanding of that God-Realization. True, but partial, as long as any separate self still lense/bias still lives and crawls in the Opening of Reality. Because that remaining separate-self-bug IS the Illusion. And compared that to the shallow half-way-up-the-mountain-Enlightenment described above, or the Identity with the manifested mere apperance side of Infinite Consciousness (the halfway-up-the-mountain), with a subtle separate self still alive (see Szyper, Infinite Consiousness for that). These halfway-up-the-mountain-Enlightenment "enlightened" cases are of course still living in the dream, although a bit closer to the mountain summit. and of course having an understanding of how it all can be full/total illusion, Indras Net perfectly fooling itself, is worth a lot compared to any lucid dream of a halfway-up-the-mountain-enlightenment. Because that understanding has a built in FURTHER! And not basking in the sun of the halfway-up-the-mountain resort. What he doesn't yet see , but what I assume he begins to realize, is that once something like Basis Enlightenment (or Full Enlightenment, see link below) can happen, where each and every arising (internal mindstream arising including I-thoughts/I-feeling/or any separate-self building block, AND any external arising (world, visual field) is clearly seen as arising in the Infinite always here Nothingness of Infinite Reality, ones true being, that there is just nothing left that could not be considered as mirage/illusion/show. So the same "God"-Realization, but permanent and full, killing each and every separte self illusion bug. Or smacking it immediately when a bug is left in the shadow, as soon as it crawls out again. And without transfering/projecting any remaining separate-self elements on Infinite Reality. Yours truly admits that it is very difficult to see the gold in the spiritual field (Full Enlightenment, or seeing that any possible arising, n+1, now or in future (including everything of oneself, making oneself fully Nothingness), is just an Illusion, vs. the truckloads of proponents of the Halfway-Up-the-Mountain-Resort-"Enlightenment"-Dream. And that most Awakenings/Enlightenments in the Marketplace (though they are valid Awakenings) are not the final endpoint of the summit. But just the dream becoming more lucid, and its proponent are thinking its already at the peak of the mountain, standing on the little brother peak of the absolute peak, And Maya smilingly holding the shield pointing to that path, stating "Absolute Summit" and guiding the visitor cars to that beautiful resort. And smiling lovingly... or: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche Now, there is realistic chance that he will see the sign of the path of the transcendence-path of added meditation (combined with psychedelics) and killing every single last separate-self-arisings-bug to get fully empty, and with that fully everything. The Real Deep Identity that we all share: We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche The One without a second. Sorry for the repetition. He even wrote recently he has done three hours of meditation, and he refrains a bit from moderating the Spirituality-section of the forum. I previously wrote, the Solipsism-Gladiators are doing quite a show here, of which he has a hard time either approving or disapproving- understandably. Both options are not really good. The path forward: transcend the problem which can't be solved on its own level, step one level higher, and give the right perspective/context on each partial truth of the past, integrating them all into a coherent picture of larger and more encompassing truths, and live happily ever after. And while one is at it, kudos to Ken Wilber for developing such a nice integral framework that provides space&room for all perspectives, (partial-)truths and experiences. No need to have a separate-self-bug arisings that says all wrong/evil, but enough space for the whole Net of Indra. Only One Truth is absolute, all others are either partial and true, or complete & false. And nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time. Everything contains at least partial truths.... But hey, I am engaging of tabloid press interpreting of the behaviour of the royals, like in UK & Windsor Castle.... . But despite all of that, I try to stay on the lighter and benevolent side of it all... And I agree with Bazooka Jesus, the royals they have in UK are really boring compared to the happenings in our lovely realm: What kind of great and interesting rank and file, governance and royalty. Sorry, of course the other way round. Royalty, governance and rank and file. But honestly! So that would be the 50ct from yours truly on this hell of a show. Maybe even the roalties can grant the lowly rank and file with there presence and maybe even a comment? If not, and still being busy sorting out the thing, that is of course also completely fine. Take your time. The gladiators at the moment fighting the battle in a way that not too many sentient beings with potential will get their Karma damanged, but are delivering and awesome show. And, you know, yours truly got quite robust over the years in viewing every comment arising in "its" visual field as just more illusion-arising, so there is no hang-over from selling crap at the outside or something like that. ItsALLGOODMAN. And in case the Royalty feels intruded by yours truly invading the privacy of the head of state, please issue an verdict, and yours truly will readily revoke, repent, remorse and so on... I wish him good luck on his path, and godspeed, from all my heart! Water by the River @Sincerity Hope the stylistic tone & content of the post is benevolent and respectful enough. Yours truly really tried! If doesn't find the approval of the guardians of the realm, please let me know.

And Wilbers description of the Causal Stages in One Taste: Entering the High Causal: Exactly how long I was Light, I cannot say. How long Form existed, I cannot say. How long I have been neither, I cannot say. On the other side of Light, the Abyss. On the other side of Love, the Abyss. How long, I cannot say. ... And then, the Abyss beyond all beyonds. Some would call it radical Freedom, infinite Release, ultimate Liberation, the great Redemption, boundless Being. I wouldn’t know, for there is no I to know, in any form, sacred or profane, and so there is only this radical Formlessness, which remains its own remark. It is not bliss, it is not God, it is not love. It is not holistic, it is not Goddess, it is not interwoven anything. It is not infinite, it is not eternal, it is not any conception or object or state whatsoever. I-I am not light, am not love, am not spirit, am not bliss. II am not bound, am not free, am not ignorant, am not liberated. But this much can be said: where there is not this Emptiness, there is only suffering. All this I remember, in the school of myself. All this I have seen, in the history of my own discovery. All this I sing of now, to the audience of myself. All this I promise to others, who are the forms of my own slumbering. All this others will also see, as they awaken from their otherness and return their slumbering selves to the Wakefulness that has always existed, undiminished and untorn, in the heart of what they are. Exactly how long I was Light, I cannot say. How long Form existed, I cannot say. How long I have been neither, I cannot say. On the other side of Light, the Abyss. On the other side of Love, the Abyss. How long, I cannot say. But I know I will empty even this Emptiness, and therefore create a Kosmos, and therefore incarnate as the world of Form, and enter with Wakefulness the children of my own Awareness. Exiting High Causal: Around the sea of Emptiness, a faint edge of bliss. From the sea of Emptiness, a flicker of compassion. Subtle illuminations fill the space of awareness, As radiant forms coalesce in consciousness. A world is taking shape, A universe is being born. I-I breathe out the subtlest patterns, Which crystallize into the densest forms, With physical colors, things, objects, processes, That rush upon awareness in the darkness of its night, To arise as glorious sun, radiant reminder of its source, And slumbering earth, abode of the offspring of Spirit. So the bold markings are from me. Breakingthewall, in the descriptions of Frank Yang and Ingram, there is NO Awareness in Cessation. "The Universe just switches off, and reboots". And the "reboot" is interesting, because there all subtle forms come online, the separate-self building blocks, space, change and time, and so on. Like Nothingness, and then yada yada yada. Compare that to Wilber, see bold above. And that is what makes this experience so valueable, because the Infinite Absolute Reality is exactly that: Beyond it all. And the High Causal does exactly that: Kills every last subtle filter/form. Moksha also differentiates between the void/formless state and the Unmanifested Reality, what I and Andrew Halaw would call Nothingness. "But beyond this formless state there is another, unmanifested reality, which is eternal and is not dissolved when the cosmos is destroyed." Selling Water by the River

For the topic of Salvijus and Breakingthewall: Causal States vs. states of void/formlessness and totality of manifestation (Whiteout,Infinity) at any time (low causal). Yours truly is a bit an "Integration aficionado" of different systems, just to get to the deep structures of the different paths up the mountain. Wilbers High Causal is the Abyss of Absolute Nothingness, Cessation, Nirvikalpa. The passing of that often enough opens the door for getting empty enough to maintain constant Nondual Realization in daily life. Or to directly intuit the essence of any manifestation, Nothingness, Infinite Reality. Wilbers Low Causal: The Totality of manifestation (Whiteout,Infinity) at any time (low causal). @Breakingthewall, what the void-state that you describe is I can't tell based just based on your description. It doesn't sound like a black-out like Cessation, doesn't have its effects, and doesn't fit the ladder described above. But the pool of causal states is wide... Descriptions of cessation one can find at Ingram, Thisdell and Frank Yang. Wilber also describes the Whiteout somewhere else, but I don't have that in my files/notes. Here are some quotes and perspectives from Ken Wilbers system on the topic. Wilber normally provides a very good Ontology. Maybe you find that interesting. My personal perspective is on one of my last posts on causal states, which I don't want to repeat here. Excerpt 1: And from Wilber - Sex,Ecology, Spirituality: And what is also very useful: Wilber, Waves, streams, states, and self: An outline of an integral psychology. And Wilber, Religion of the Future. And what both of you probably will really like is Halaw, God is Nothingness, and Wolinsky, "The End of the Game - Deconstructing the Portals to the Absolute". On both books I have written something in this thread: The High Causal States are always easy to spot in descriptions. Passing through these fully empty and impersonal states is in many systems the opening gate to entering the stages Nondual Realization, because states are known where the separate self and any form of Duality just is not. The Nondual Realization/Full Enlightenment (NOT only the Unity with the Visual Field), but also the Impersonal Emptiness of the High Causal States integrated are also easy to spot in any description/system We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche Anything from subtle states to low causal states can be quite a Jungle in systems/descriptions which is to be expected, because here the infinite manifestation begins. not only the dimensions/realties experienced can vary, but the interpretation varies with the conceptual system the subject travels... And: Hic sunt dracones Aliens Maybe that is interesting & useful for you. Wilbers ontological system worked very well for me to orient myself in often very differing systems/descriptions. See for example Lex Hixon, Coming Home. The Experience of Enlightenment in Sacred Traditions. The variety of the description of paths and states is vast, and the universal deep structures often hard to spot. Selling Water by the River

Okey, even if we go by your model that we create pictures in infinity. Still. What would be left if you stopped creating pictures if not an empty timeless bottomless nothingness? And my argument that Nothingness cannot be imagined or draw in pictrues or painted is still valid imo. So it's fair to call it a total opposite of imagination as far as I'm concerned.

There's another way of looking that i would propose. "For something not to be, you just have to stop creating it, because everything is your imagination anyways" and if one stops imagining all reality, the void/nothingness is the only option left imo.

@Moksha The way i interpreted what breakingthewall sayed is that the unmanifest is imaginary. And i would propose that that the unmanifest cannot be imaginary. Only the manifest can be imaginary. I don't see any flaw in this logic. And the end of all imagination would naturally result in void/nothingness/cessation/nirodha samapatti. Still don't see any flaw in logic.

@Water by the River It should have a special meaning tho as far as i understand. Because achieving nirodha samapatti is an indication that one's awareness has trancendenced all mind. Being able to sense nothingness among all things like in Dzogchen is not necessarily an indicator that he achieved total trancendence yet. But by keeping his attention on the emptiness during all activities and refining his discernment further he is bound to achieve total trancendence, nirodha samapatti some day. So nirodha should have a special meaning here. It indicates the level of growth and trancendence one has attained imo. And i also think one who attains to nirodha is automatically able to see nothingness in all things like Dzogchen. But i could be wrong idk.

True. In the opinion of yours truly, that [bold markings in your post by yours truly] is especially the danger with psychedelic only/mainly paths. To say it in the words of Ken Wilber: To fully cross over to Final Enlightenment/fully waking up, ones Identity must by NOTHING/Nothingness. Fully empty. Fully Impersonal Consciousness. The "Abyss". Separate self fully seen in all subtle elements (I-feeling, I-thouhgts, and very subtle lenses of pereception)/transcended/cut off. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche And that can either be had with working with cessations (or the "more" concentrative path. "During" Cessations where the separate self is not existent, by definition), and seeing the separate self reassemble when getting out of that state, and the then resulting ripening and transcending of the remaining separate self. Or by doing something like the dissolving/transcending of the separate self directly with for example Mahamudra/Dzogchen, which knows cessations, but doesn't give them Ultimate meaning or even preference compared to staying in the Nondual (Simultaneous Mind) States/Awakenings (during daily life when the world appears in the visual field), letting the separate self slowly dissolve, until the Big Bang of Crossing Over or Waking Up: Resulting in the Final Nondual Enlightenment as described by Kalu above, or by Daniel Brown Pointing out the Great Way, Basis Enlightenment: The paths up the mountain are a bit different, and the interpretation of coming down the mountain also has different "coulorings". But the deep structure of the path, and the outcome, is of the same essence. Interesting thing is: Daniel Ingram, Frank Yang and Ken Wilber changed all in the later stages of their practice either to or to include elements of Mahamudra/Dzogchen into their previous practice (Theravada for the first two gentlemen, Zen for Wilber. Both are mainly concentrative meditation heavy paths). Which in the opinion of yours truly is a very interesting fact. Selling Water by the River PS: When having read the letter, throw it in the fire (Bassui)

@Water by the River If i got it right, you're basicly saying that manifestaion is not different than nothingness. I get it. You don't need to keep explaining it ? I still think it is not related to my original post tho. I heard a good argument once on this topic why total cessation has extra importance. It's because suppose there was water mixed with milk, if one wanted to experience what water tastes like, he first would need to evaporate all the milk out of it. Then that one has truly tasted the absolute without any milk in it. Until one experiences a clear dip in total cessation he doesn't know what water tastes likes, he knows a mixture of water and milk only. I thought it's a good thought provoking argument.

Yes, fully agree. And the Nothingness is always there (gold), even when the necklage (form) shows up. Made out of it. i just wanted to say that the perspective that the causal can also be considered a state when one wants to describe the temporaray experience of it is also valid. On the concentrative paths, one normally experiences the Nothingness normally first as state, before one can "hold" the awareness of the Nothingness as the essence also of form/visual field in daily life (Nondual Realization). That is why early Buddhism put Nirvana on a pedestal. One can get "hung upon" Emptiness/Nothingness as state. Awareness "OF" Emptiness. Then one has to empty out emptiness. Realizing broadly as movement (Buddhism) fully that Samsara is Nirvana, and emphasizing the Nondual nature of both, and formulating all of that into doctrine (Nagarjuna, Madyamaka) came later. Having Nirodha as state is easier (and can comes before) fully holding the Nondual Realization that essence of the necklace(form) is gold in daily life. But also that happens (realization with Nondual without Cessations before). Mahamudra and Dzogchen for example quite efficiently directly train the Nondual Awakening, and not giving Nirvana/Causal/Cessation states the importance it had in early Buddhism (and partially still has in Theravada). But if having the choice only between either/or (and not integrating both staetments into proper context to make the partial truths of each more encompassing) 1. calling Niroda/Nothingness/Cessation just an temporary imagined state or 2. calling Nothingness/Niroda the Absolute, "the" Infinite Always Already Here Reality, ones True Fully Empty (Nothingness) Impersonal Being of Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind, yours truly also would always chose the 2. perspective. Because its fully empty&impersonal Infinite Consciousness/ Suchness/ Nothingness. And that is what helps making it stable in daily life. Calling it just 1. (and downplaying 2.) can cause a lot of trouble. But if one goes down the Absolute Solipsism and "its all imagined" path probably tends to or even has to that move. But both perspectives contain (partial) truths. As is to be expected, because "at" the Absolute/Infinite level all dualities/language/descriptions/system just collapse. One throws them over board at the right time, not before. Until then, they are very useful. Selling Water by the River

Okey i think i see where that train of thought came from now. But i never heard anyone calling nirodha a temporary, passing thing. Calling it the absolute, unborn, uncreated, eternal, boundless makes much more sense imo. And the original point i was trying to make was triggered by Leo saying that nirodha and nothingness is just an act of god's imagination and how it doesn't make much sense to me. Because nothingness in my view is the only thing that cannot be imagined or created or dreamed up. Rather i think it would be more accurate to say nirodha is the total opposite of that. It's the end of all imagination, end of all creation, end of all dreams etc.

Well, ......... yes! When resting IN that Nothingness/Infinite Impersonal Consciousness/Infinite Reality, the bliss/love starts to flow. So that bliss/love lives in the house of ones True Being. It is the fragrence of love/bliss that one searches in all(!) experiences, after the separate self contraction/ego has strangled this flow of love/bliss. It is the bliss/love of a home that one never really forgot, and actually never really left. Only apparently... Technically, the bliss/love belongs to the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness, the necklace side of the gold. But since it flows as soon as the gold begins to reveal itself, it is just divine in its force (see one of my last post for Awe). It kills "separate you" softly or not so softly... And when the Nondual Realization opens up..... the Divine opens its flood-gates and delivers any love/bliss one ever sought and had, and infinitely more... It is like finding a million dollar in your pocket, and keep pulling out the money in disbelief, always thinking that has to be fake as everything that came before. I think that metaphor is from Adyashanti. Afterwards, one never mourns the loss of the separate self-illusion. One has lost nothing more than an Illusion, and gained the whole Kosmos. Infinite Freedom, since which/what could constrain ones freedom? Infinite Love, since one knows its source, and there is no other, never could be. One without a second. And if it is in ones nature, go fishing, grow beautiful flowers in your garden, raise a family, celebrate life.... And if one is inclined to do so, go develop new technologies, explore new fields, leave your mark, go chasing an Alien or two - if one is true Pioneer, discover Alien Dimensions and the wonderfully beautiful creation and mainting mechanism of this Universe/Dimension/Buddhafield and others... But this time from the fullness of ones True Being, with overflowing bliss and love, and not for getting the love/bliss from the gig/experience, but for expressing the love/bliss that already always lives in ones True Home, right here and right now... And maybe don't value the n+1 Alien anything higher than the bliss/love of ones essence... You know, "others" might get inspired to go chasing their own tail too.... Selling Water by the River

Nirodha Samapatti/Cessation/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep - Causal States: Absolute Reality or passing states. Both! Please allow me some musings on that topic... The Nothingness/Infinite Reality in which the show happens right here right now is the same Nothingness that is also the Reality of Nirodha Samapatti. And all other (causal) states, like cessation and so on. Same goes for example of Infinity-"Whiteouts" of 5-MeO experiences and the like. IT/Nothingness is right here, Infinite Reality itself, It can never not be there. The essence of any manifestation. It is timeless, always here. Eternal. Immortal. Or better: Timeless, like in "can't go anywhere else, has to be right here always". Even in causal Nothingness-states, like Cessation/Nirodha Samapatti/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep. Ones True Eternal Impersonal(!) Being, Infinite Consciousness, the Universal Mind itself. Nirodha Samapatti is a special configuration/modulation IT(Infinite Consciousness/Reality) can have, although that modulation of it REVEALS much of its True Essence, Nothingness. IT has also the Infinite Potential to appear as the whole show, the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness. And that manifested side is truly nondual with the unmanifested side of Infinite consciousness, One without a second. By logic, "what something is, its essence" has theoretically to be always the same (Which is why everything perceivable doesn't really exist, because it is temporary, changing. Using verbs instead of nouns would be much more approriate). That is why Nothingness (pointing to the "always there" Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness) is for example a much better pointer than for example anything pointing towards the "Manifested Side" of Infinite Consciousness, like the eternal flow of shapes, or even Gods/Buddhfields. As long as anything with form, anything specific (and that means also ANYTHING changing, which is also only temporary) is identified with the Absolute: Good luck getting rid of that... There is only one Thing/Non-Thing that is eternal/timeless, Reality itself. Anything else is changing.... The flow of the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness. Of course the changing flow of the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness is in a nondual way the same as the Unmanifested Nothingness Side. But the ESSENCE of the manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness is Nothingness, not the other way round. The Manifested Side is NOT the essence of the Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness. Because the manifested side can go (Nirodha Samapatti), so it is not the essence (not what something is, see above). The necklace and gold. Gold would be the unmanifested stay, it stays. The necklace disappeares in the furnace, leaving only god. One is the essence of the other, not the other way round. Nirodha Samapatti is the gold as molten in the furnace, without shape/properties. The necklace, or any jewellery, is the show/manifested side of Infinite Consciousness/gold. A very nice book on the Awakenings/Enlightenments into the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness vs. the Unmanifested Side (and impersonal/causal/Nothingness) of Infinite Consciousness: Infinite Consciousness: An In-depth Exploration of the Shift in Consciousness Constitutive of Enlightenment in relation to True Nature, the Soul, the Body-Mind, the Heart and the Me, Michaël Szyper being able to differentiate between Awakenings/Enlightenments into the Manifested or Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness would also put the whole Awakening n+1 show in a better perspective. A perspective that would actually bring real peace.... But of course would take a lot of juice out of the show, so lets see if Maya prefers the juicy show for yet a bit longer... If in doubt, always bet on Maya! You never get disappointed... Either she looses (which is nice), or the bet is won. A win-win situation uhhhh, sorry. And as always, Bon Voyage! Summarizing all of that: Nirodha Samapatti is a state, and is Nothingness, but is still a conditioned state. Temporary. But very useful and making the Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness quite clear... But since it is an expression of the Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness, it is closer and a better pointer, a state making Absolute Reality/Nothingness clearer than for example saying the Infinite Flow of Infinite Reality (or anything with form, anything that can be described, God (not the Godhead), Buddhafield, whatever), which is a pointer to the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness. That framework explains why concerning Causal Nothingness-states, like Cessation/Nirodha Samapatti/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep. (1) some say it IS the Absolute (2) and some say it is only a state, passing, temporary. As most of the time, nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time, or even completely wrong with a statement (although some go looong ways to performe quite good in both categories, but that is another topic). Same here: Both statements (1) and (2) are true, but partial, and need to be put into context. Then it can be integrated. That is why I am such a fan of Integral Thinking/Integral Cognition. It solves contradictions.... And if one has partial truths and contradictions in ones Mental Operating System, one is a walking contradiction on two legs, the prime victim of Maya and suffering of the self-contraction (also a contradiction walking on two feet). Although some seem to enjoy it quite a bit, at least for a time... Maybe that is a bit helpful... Selling Water by the River