Search the Community

If I am nothingness, like leo said, why can I only epxirience through the senses of some random person? I am NOT this person, not this mind. But still, there is something unique to that mind and body. And that is that I can only expirience through that mind and body. So if this mind and body dies, will I still be able to epxirience? How? Because expiriencing is the most beautiful thing I can imagine. According to what leo said, when my body and mind die - nothing is lost since that was not me in the first place. But I still feel like I lose everything. I am as much this body as I am the coffee table. But the coffee table can´t experience feelings, sight, smell - all the beautiful things. It just is there. But without expiriencing as much. Probably without expiriencing anything. Could it be that the lower self needs to be there to make the higher Self possible? But the question that I want to be answered the most is the one in the first line. If I am everything, why can´t I experience everything - but instead just experience through that body and mind that I am not. I hope someone will get what I mean with this question.

That is very relatable. I'm bought into the idea of nothingness (which is already a thing if You make an idea of it) from OSHO's books and every time at the beginning of meditating session (strong determination sitting if You will) my mind is like a part of an atom, constantly moving in all directions, I have all that concepts of my ankles touching the ground inducing very painful, uncomfrotable feeling I can sense even before starting. I have a concept about what will happen to my body, what I will feel and how big Resistance I will feel against it. The more I sit, the harder those thoughts are hitting me until I reach a point of submission, letting go of an idea that I AM, I FEEL, I HAVE A MIND AND THOUGHTS. There is noone to feel the pain. There is no mind to start thought process. What happens I cannot fully describe. Think of it as "I" no longer exists. The mind is off. Thoughts are off. That kind of insight is short in terms of time, but is like a touch of the eternity. Plus after the session going back into normal standing possition takes me good 3 minutes, because of the pain I feel, but how hard I laugh doing it is remarkable - I have no idea why I'm laughing, someone please tell me

@Akim great points, I am very interested in seeing a reply. @Ramu The ego is definitely a construct of the mind (and so is my concept of my brain), but after killing off the ego entirely there is still experience/awareness. So I don't think losing your ego makes you understand nothingness; I think that is another step in enlightenment. "nothingness" seems to be outside experience too (that's what Leo indicates in his videos) and I agree there must be something outside our experience. We can call it the "universe" or "nothingness". BUT, I see no indication why we are the entire nothingness then, why can't we be an epiphenomenon of the "nothingness", just like mass is a phenomenon of no-mass lightspeed particles? Or we could be a finite part of the infinite nothingness. To me we seem to be derived from the nothingness, or to be a very small part of the nothingness. I would love insight as to why my perspective is incomplete or flawed however

@Leo Gura Let me express my doubts, I think it will be beneficial and I don't necessarily think that you are wrong, I just want to look at it from other perspective. But what is wrong with phenomena of the world, like experiences, smells, thoughts, concepts, how are they a prison? There would not be anything like that after death. This flower only exist as a brain activity, this smell or thought is only exist as a brain activity. So you are saying that after death there would not be "nothing", instead there would be a timeless subtle "nothingness" that exist now but we are distracted by phenomena? What if that "nothingness-awareness" is just a small feature of reality that lead to interesting things in human brain, because human brain integrates tons of information but there are also other examples of "nothingness-awareness" that are boring and featureless, and our human existence is very rare and lucky in some sense? What if concepts of self and things are good and useful? What if good enlightened people are in some sense build on foundation of concepts with more subtle and developed processes above them and not build on removal of all concepts, may be they just go unconscious? What if "nothingness-awareness" is not a source but just a product of the brain or something else? What if reality is much more complex than space, time, existence, phenomena? We conceptualized even quantum mechanics with invented mathematical language and built wonderful things. What if we can conceptualize enlightenment, why not? What if probability of ultimately breaking something in your psyche is much greater that developing it? What if that process of self inquiry and meditation is dangerous and can lead to mental problems in some people? There are examples http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/meditation-is-touted-as-a-cure-for-mental-instability-but-can-it-actually-be-bad-for-you-10268291.html http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jan/23/is-mindfulness-making-us-ill#comment-67355752 What if you need a good teacher for doing this work? How can you find a good teacher and be sure that he is not delusional himself and subconsciously or even consciously motivated by ulterior motives? What if it is all just delusions and enlightened people just have delusions more pleasant to experience? What if enlightenment doesn't exist, it is a delusion and the most dangerous and persistent one in the world, because it promises more than anything else in the world, to end suffering, which gives mind infinite reasons to defend it?

I like your idea of a fractal, but why do you think this is the case? "you can't be the experience without being the nothingness" - my point was aren't we a part of the nothingness then, we are not all of the infinite nothingness itself. "Can't subdivide infinity" why not? humans don't understand infinity, so we cannot make claims either way? "mathematicians are clueless" - I'm not sure about that, and don't think mathemiticians are claiming you can subdivide infinity either... in fact I've heard many mathemeticians admit the existance of infinity is totally philosophical and it is used more as a tool in maths than a hard fact. BUT infinity does have finite parts to it, that is fact. all numbers from 0 to infinity include the set of numbers from 0 - 5 (even though there infinite real numbers between 0 and 5, plus we're not even considering imaginary numbers yet!) "To be the result of something else is to be in the illusion of finiteness and duality." What is the illusion of finiteness and duality? How do we know there isn't the illusion of infiniteness and non-duality? And why do you think this statement is true? "You can know this to be strictly illusory and having no independent existence at all because it is logically absurd." What is "this"? finiteness and duality? Again, why do you think so? The gun, brains, time and space could all be finite, but why does that mean they are not real? [I understand the concept of the brain only exists in my reality as a concept, but that doesn't mean there isn't something out there corresponding to my concept of the gun] "There is only absolute infinity? Why do you think that? Maybe for all we know something else exists, not finite, not infinite, but something else (ie. a singularity). Sorry if I come across as critisizing. I'm just trying to understand rather than just believing anyone's word for it. Belief won't help one understand a concept as we all know.

I guess when "you" die, you automatically become what you've always been. Realizing that there is no true separation between life and death (speaking from your true existential nature) is what enlightenment really is. That's why enlightened people aren't afraid of death. It's like realizing that everything you know and everything you experience right now in existence is actually just formed into the nothingness, which exists when you die. That's how I see it ...

Consider this: when the brain is totally destroyed, what remains? "Nothingness" yes? Fine. But wouldn't that indicate that the true self is derivative and lives "inside" the nothingness, rather than that we are the nothingness itself? In the same way that one would say, experience isn't the brain - but it lives inside the brain and it is created by the brain?

Hi everyone, I just had some questions on Leo's most recent video "The Enlightened Self - A Description Of Your Existential Nature." I'd love to hear any ideas, and any points I make I would love to be proved wrong in! First up, how can we say that we are the "nothingness"? I can perhaps understand there is something outside what I can ever experience, but I would say that I am still experience. I reckon (or reckoned before the video at least) that experience is derived from the "nothingness", but how can someone say, "I am the nothingness". Are we not a small derivative part of the "nothingness"? It seems to me like an ant saying "I am the colony" when instead he is a small part of the colony (which consists of other ants, but also the eggs, also the ground, also the tunnels, etc). I would perhaps argue that there is more to us than our experience sure, and this is almost certainly outside time, but I wouldn't say it is accurate to call ourselves "it" - but instead we are a result of "it". When I die, surely I am dead, and the universe just continues on without me entirely? No part of me, not even my "true self" can survive a gun shot to the brain right? As another example, when I am doing work and I am in a state of flow, "I" do not exist for hours and there is no consciousness as such - but whatever does exist there will end after a gunshot to the head right; that would suggest the "true self" still exists in the brain? And the last example here, if someone is meditating and in a TOTAL state of enlightenment, would he remain after a gunshot to the head? Or would that "nothingness" and the "true self" still exist? [Sorry for the gun shot to the head example the whole time, but it's useful in this thought experiment] Second, why the choice of the word "nothingness"? Words are all about definitions, and isn't nothingness by definition nothing and non existant (non existant from any perspective)? Wouldn't a better choice of words be a "singularity" (a point outside space and time) or the "no concept" (outside concepts)? Does anyone know any other words or phrases that you prefer? Third, why do people who are people who experienced enlightenment so sure they are correct? Why do they think that their new insight isn't just another illusion? Or if not an illusion, isn't the experience still in the mind? Or is the enlightenment "experience" actually escaping experience and the brain itself, and thus totally outside the brain? Would a MRI of the brain for instance show the enlightenment experience, or does the whole process of enlightenment actually occur outside the neurochemistry of the brain? Last up I would actually like to say I found the huge similarities to what Leo was saying with quantum physics hugely impressive. The below channel on YouTube attempts to provide a visualization of it. If anyone has a few spare hours it's very interesting. There are themes of the singularity = 0 = infinity, deeper levels of reality, and the ultimate illusion of our lives. In my interpretation though, it would suggest we are fundamentally trapped in our existance of 3D snapshots of a 4D spacetime worldline, and we are not the singularity as such, but rather we are a derivative of it.

Thoughts appear randomly, so does that mean they are my thoughts? They seem to come out of nowhere, which is odd, I can deliberately however think of a thought over and over which makes me believe that I have some control over my thoughts, but according to Leo I have no control over my thoughts. It seems like that is not so, but I am open to the possibility of me being wrong as usual, after all, this wouldn't be the first time. Like Leo has said a thought appears and internally disappears, for me at least, but for everybody else does it work this way? I don't know... Perhaps it does perhaps it doesn't, but for me a thought appears and than returns into the "nothingness" unless I conjure it up by thinking of it purposely. It is eerie to me to think that my thoughts are not my own however due to it appearing out of no where, they just happen sometimes out of a reaction of fear, and what not. I think my thoughts are a product of feelings perhaps. I first feel than I think it would seem with fear, now I am wondering whether or not that goes for any one emotion I think. I am curious as if someone can feel a mixture of emotions, like fear and anger at the same time...maybe emotions are like a cocktail of some sort, I think that would seem to be the case, or maybe I feel one emotion after another I'm not sure because I'm not the emotional guy, but anyways about thoughts... So if I believe my thoughts are a product of my feelings, than what produced those feelings? ......I read a book that said that feelings are the truth but that the feelings get deluded by thought and are masqueraded as a feeling, however, I am thinking that this is not so because, I have dis attached my thoughts and feelings to myself I think to a certain degree. Either way I have concluded from writing this that feelings have a source of some sort perhaps, but what is that source possibly? I am thinking that this source has to have a point to where it started, where else could it derive from? Where it all began... Maybe.. Nothing was unaware of itself, like we were when we were young, and was born of non existence, but how can something exist without something existing? Perhaps the need to exist because not existing. I have heard life has no beginning and no end, but I guess in order for something to exist forever must have no beginning or end, for if there is a beginning for something, it must have an end and not exist. UNLESS... this one theory I heard was correct...That the universe is evolving to become God as a singular being. Maybe god is made in our image and instead of his. Along the lines of god didn't create the universe, the universe created god. Maybe God has a beginning and an end for God is created by the universe, and God is finite, but powerful in this universe. Maybe God isn't the ultimate source of all.... anyways..I tire of this...just wanted to get some of this off my head and wanted to share some of my thoughts to sort out my thoughts, and it ended up in a big circle...lol..PHILOSOPHY FOR YAH Cya

You want to know the absolute truth about Good and Evil that is not up for debate? Well it exist but "I can only show you the door, you'll have to go through it yourself". It's all in the original Sin, how we ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and divided the light so we could only see everything and anything as either "good" or "evil" but that's not how the world actually work. If you ever read any religious texts and especially the bible (mainly the old testament) this is what the entire book is all about. It's the Jewis Law and everything, it's putting one pillar against another, it's not looking at any of the causes but ever only focus on the result, it's to constantly lie to yourself and everyone else in order to seam "good" in the eyes of others, it's to always seek "pleasures" and avoid "pain" it is the ego itself. Leo have made a great video on Karma and that's really what it comes down to, that Evil = Lying to oneself. That's not the version that the law give you, the law tell you to constantly hide yourself from yourself and all others, for example if you see a hot girl you're not allowed to look at her and if you feel bad you need to put up a smile and when you feel mad (or excited or whatever) you're not allowed to curse and when you walk around among the zombies on the street your not allowed to talk openly with anyone like they are all part of the same "nothingness" or whatever like you and we're all one and when someone is lying to themselves you need to make sure not to hurt their ego... The list goes on and on but this is the evil of the world that we all simply have to "put up with", it can be sickening but this is what we got right now. It's also where all of our fears come from - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJWcrMdzMLs&list=PLAzuNEPIFEpysV8i818Kz3dKcQ_WGJOVp&index=33

The goal of this journal is to write exactly how the experience with the unknown was from my point of view and I will try to keep it as simple as possible. It all started about one year ago when after yet another break up everything changed. Before this I was a happy go lucky alcohol/sex/drugs addicted with almost no notion about spirituality and in total denial of it. My life was all about partying, clubs, alcohol, soft core drugs, sex, and running away from committed relationships, which was my way of living for the past 18 to 20 years. Getting back to one year ago; during that time I’ve started reading about Dialectical Behavior Therapy and mindfulness meditation looking for a fix for the bad feelings that come up after a break up. First I’ve tried to stay still and watch the thoughts but they were too fast and I was getting lost in them almost instantly so no good, then I read somewhere about staying relaxed and noticing the feelings that arise and just watching them without trying to judge. So I started doing that and it was working, it got me hooked. I remember I was coming home from work and staying watching what arises in the body for hours every day. It was a mix of fear, shame, anger, sexual energy and lots of emotional pain. I was practicing this for a couple of months when one morning I was in such emotional pain that I remember saying in my mind I surrender, I give up and then something strange happened, a energy out of nowhere started moving in my head mostly in the right part and the front of the head. I remember I had some panic attacks about it because my mind didn’t know what was happening until I read about kundalini energy and I’ve calmed down when I saw it was described somehow how I was experiencing mine. I’ve started observing this energy and how it was growing, from my head it expanded to the heart area and then the gut area. The mix of feelings became just pain; I was feeling pain in the heart area and gut area and this pain stayed for another 8 months roughly and then it stopped but the energy remained. During all this time the mind chattered away story after story and I was getting lost in them often but I didn’t try to stop it, I just let it do its thing. What kept me sane during all this time was a sense of blind trust that all is for my own good and listening to Eckhart Tolle and Sadhguru. About 3 or 4 months ago the thoughts started slowing down naturally to the point where now is very easy not to get lost in them. During the past 3 months I’ve started going to acupuncture weekly to help with the process. About 1 week ago I’ve got the experience of nothingness for about 5 minutes and it scared the shit out of me. No body, no mind, no sensation just a watcher of what is outside.

Essentially, stabilizing the seeing through the practice of "headlessness". "Now the "hard" part begins, which is the repetition of this seeing-into-Nothingness till the seeing becomes quite natural and nothing special at all ; till, whatever one is doing, it's clear that nobody's here doing it. In other words, till one's whole life is structured round the double-barbed arrow of attention, simultaneously pointing in at the Void and out at what fills it. Such is the essential meditation of this Way." On Having No Head, p.50

I tried this, and at first I wanted to say, that what remains in such case - are only experience and awareness. There is experience and there is some emptiness, which is lack of experience. But then I noticed, that the lack of experience is an experience also. There is no awareness. There is no true emptiness. What happens - is constant experience after experience after experience. Also, the question "Who or what am I out of monkey mind?" is kind of wrong. The question "Who or what percieves?" is kind of wrong too. There is only experience. Nothingness or awareness - they are not "there". I kind of feel that there is no sense in trying to find them. Find what? Another experience? Experience is the only thing you can find (searching, finding, not finding, realization, etc. - all are experiences which have same equal value). You can make a conclusion that if you are not experience, then you are nothing. But this will be just another experience (in whatever form it manifests - intellectial conclusion or "divine realization"). You can think about it, or again, you can even exprience some "divine realization", but still this is not it. You cannot find nothingness (= True self, Truth, Awareness, etc.). You also cannot experience it. Find what? Eperience what? That, what is not "something"? Finding, realizing and experiencing can only occur to what is "something". Can emptiness experience itself? I don't know. Now I think that I don't know anything about enlightenment or nothingness. I cannot imagine what it is. I am not skeptical. On the contrary, I feel some kind of progress. I want to continue doing all the practices, searching and reading. Hm. Right now I feel lost and disappointed. I am not sure in anything. I am not sure in this message and in all that "I have understood" for the last couple of years.

We have some kind of beliefs that we call knowledge, being this way most close possible to what we call truth Contemplating the nothingness is crucial to reorganize some data we acquire along life. I agree that we try to organize our vague beliefs planting them in the sand of our ego. Investing on the self is like sowing seeds into the abysmn.

@TruthSeeker I'm quite aware that this is my ego talking, but truthfully I'm pretty sure my "spiritual" journey has gone full circle. I've got over 25 years of experience in searching for "truth" and I'm pretty sure I've figured it out (in my reality anyway). The only thing left for me nowadays is share my insight with those that care to listen and perhaps attempt to get these sensations of "nothingness" that others have received when meditating. For some reason I've never felt this to be necessary for me. I guess I have enough patients to wait until the train stops rather than jumping on while it's still moving. Fortunately for me I've discovered complete contentment and peace within my life and that's all I've ever really desired.

My head hurts. Maybe it's true that the true self is nothingness, but on a practical level, we live in this world. I do have drives and desires to live in a certain way, and they are faced with real consequences. I'm not even talking about being labeled as weird, which I can handle, but flat out ostracized, arrested, attacked or killed. Consider homosexuals from the less accepting 1960s. They had internal drives to live a certain lifestyle. These people were hated, physically assaulted, arrested, and killed. So far what I'm getting from this conversation is that a: people that pretended to be straight and hid their homosexual desires were catering solely to their ego's social desires to be admired; b: nothing bad can really happen if they were truly gay and lived as such; and c: they're not really gay, as that was just an identity illusion - their real problem is that they were not aligned with reality. Is reality the true self? Society? Or a third yet unnamed thing? I respect all of these answers you've given, and I feel like there's truth in them, but I am as of yet completely confused. Consider this post a plea for clarification.

@brianman3 The true point here is that each person can have a different image of ourselves. We live in falsehood where the ego is and empty identity that we present to others. I discovered that the trulself is nothingness, so all authentic selfs touch each other at this point.

Ok...lets clarify something. If I wanted to right now lets say fly or split the ocean in half and make there be dry land in the middle so I can walk through or do anything else that can alter nature in crazy ways...I am NOT able to do that. The field of infinite nothingness that we're calling God IS able to do anything. If he wanted he could make the sun stay out for 48 hours or do any of the stuff I just mentioned before. If you say that he CANT do those things then he's not infinite, he has limitations...infinite means no limitations. I have limitations. When we say that "I" am "God" there is some truth in that, but its not the whole picture. The real God, the true infinite "nothingness" (somehow) has willed it that there should be this physical world with humans who have some limitations. We are only God in the sense that God is infinite so we sort of "Overlap" with him (in a spiritual way) But we are NOT him 100%. Again because if we were him we wouldnt have limitations. God has NO limitations. God has no limitations!!! Period . I am not talking about a guy in the sky with a beard or crazy stuff like that. Do you agree that if God (how ever you define that word...me, you, infinite nothingness) wanted to right now, he could turn every piece of wood in the world right now into Gold? Yes or no?

Lol, man, you ask some silly questions. God is a field of infinite Nothingness. This Nothingness exists always. And you are that Nothingness. Hence not only is God immortal, you are immortal cause you're "him". Before any humans existed, did God not exist?

Here's a paradox for ya... You actually DO exist (as Nothingness) and you ARE the source and creator of all reality, so in this sense you control and will everything into being! Of course, this is a very different "YOU" that we're talking about than the present you you believe you are. We are now talking about you as God. And "God's" will is a very different sort of thing than your personal will (which is basically just monkey mind imitating God).

@Pinocchio You are mistaken. You should listen to him more carefully and to more of his material. He talks about many things, but he talks about no-self a lot and he's certainly realized it himself many times over. His descriptions of the activity of somethingness arising out of Nothingness are profound and clearly come from direct experience. He's actually gone far deeper, I would guess, than most other enlightened folk like Jed. Because 40 years of mindfulness practice will develop in you a resolving power that no ordinary enlightened person will have. Not only will you realize no-self, but you will actually go much deeper, seeing how form arises out of Nothingness on a micro, moment-by-moment level.

Because you can study the esoteric core of every religious tradition, from Judaism to Christianity to Islam and you clearly see mystics describing the EXACT same phenomena of enlightenment, spirit, consciousness, no-self, God, Nothingness, and divine love. The convergence is uncanny. Christian and Jewish mystics describe God as Nothingness, just like Buddhists do. Old school prayer = contemplation = merging with God = Samadhi = enlightenment

Thank you @Natasha, great thoughts. I should learn more about mindfulness. Could you point me to Leo's video about nothingness? I think I might've missed it.

I used to have a fear of abandonment until I got awakened. That is when I saw through the illusion of 'self', there was no one to be abandoned. That fear is conditioned and everything that is created by your mind is an illusion - thoughts, concepts, memories, etc. When you get awakened, you recognize reality as it is, no labels, no filters, no thoughts, just a play of forms/ energy. Your body is a form, so are your thoughts. Also, recognize the other people as such. They are, as Leo calls it, 'nothingness' as well as you are and 'nothingness' cannot abandon 'nothingness', because it's one and the same.

Awareness is Nothingness. It's what you actually are. An empty, formless, infinite transparent field. It cannot be seen or thought. It is the empty space within which reality occurs and your body/mind exist in. Awareness = consciousness = spirit = God = you To get a real clear taste of it requires an enlightenment experience. In that moment you see everything as made out of awareness.